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Treasure Card Banning in PvP

AuthorMessage
Delver
Jan 31, 2012
226
seethe42 on Feb 7, 2014 wrote:
It's not really fair to anyone. All the TC haters claim that it makes dueling too hard and "unfair". In reality TC are the most fair thing in all of pvp. Everyone of every level can use them and has the same access to them. Making a special ranked division for people who don't want to play by the game rules makes a mockery of the rankings. Why do you want fake rankings? You can't earn Warlord by the rules of the game, so change the rules to suit you?
It does make it too hard to fight a tc user. That why I put 2 things up. So if tc cards can be used waterworks gear should be updated or put the new minion in to rank pvp

Explorer
Aug 15, 2012
77
seethe42 on Feb 7, 2014 wrote:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to abuse TC, they are a part of the game and open to every player of every level. The "non-skilled" players here are the ones who CHOOSE not to use them and whine constantly that other players are using the tools that the game gives players. Why are you so afraid of players using weaker versions of spells that you can use just because you are higher level?
Uh first of all, Treasure cards are NOT weaker versions of the spell
look at the differences in the spell and TC of efreet:

http://www.wizard101central.com/wiki/Spell:Efreet

http://www.wizard101central.com/wiki/TreasureCard:Efreet

a hundred points difference, Treasure cards are better than the original spells.

Now, about how we shouldn't PvP at all, why not make the game fun for everyone huh, its not a bad idea at all. Some people think its unfair a lvl 1 warlord, with 49% uni resist, and a 35% in all damage. doing 8000 damage with efreet. That is a little extreme. True some people like TC cards and available to everyone, but everyone doesn't like playing people who doesn't know the spell. They want to face with the spells they learned through dedication of the studies they did with there teachers. They want there own SKILL that they learned, the spells they mastered, not one time use spells. Imo it would help everyone out, so this isn't a waste full comment. now the trolls can come out now

"Ice is delicate and beautiful, but it can be tough and deadly"
Angel lvl 85

Delver
Jan 31, 2012
226
I didn't say I wanted it banded just want a fair fight once in awhile that why I ask for it to be reduce.

And sorry tc warlord and others tc uses for false reports.

Delver
Jan 31, 2012
226
seethe42 on Feb 9, 2014 wrote:
First off, not using TC's isn't proof of skill, just lack of intelligence. A skilled player uses all the tools a game gives them. The problem with making ranked battles separate like that is the ranking. You are giving same ranks for different rules. It's kinda like letting little league teams compete for the World Series, just because they have the wins. You can't have two separate systems with different rules and the same ranking system.
Then have tc warlord join higher lvl wizard

Champion
Oct 30, 2011
449
For everyone who has said, "Treasure cards should be banned. High level gear should be updated. New systems need to be implemented because I can't beat treasure cards. Treasure cards are unfair." please, think about it from the treasure card user's perspective. Imagine you're a level 50 battling a level 80 with 300 critical and 70% damage. You have maybe 100 block, 50-54 resist, slight healing boost, and maybe 50 damage. Please tell me; no matter what school you are, how are you supposed to fit everything you need in your main deck? Most schools, at level 50, do not get extremely high powered attacks that are needed to defeat players similar to the one in this example. They have much better stats than you. Although, in this example, I only put their damage stats, they will probably have 2-4 times your health, somewhat less resist than you, and much better healing boost. They will have access to more treasure cards and many more normal spells. They can quickly stack up tons of damage, so you, as a level 50 warlord, will need to debuff or shield often. Without treasure cards, level 50 warlords would be stuck using low pip attacks that would hardly put a dent in their opponent's health, while their opponent would be using critical attacks with more damage boost, and more powerful base damage to begin with. The only advantage the level 50 warlord has is some resist and "skill," which everyone seems to think is a much larger factor in pvp than level. Please tell me; how is it fair for a level 50 to be battling someone with many more advantages than them? That's like asking a student to score higher on a test than another student that is several years ahead of them in school. It can happen, but won't happen consistently, and the younger student won't have much of a chance. It's not so much about how good the lower is, just about how much of an advantage the higher level, or in the student example, how much extra learning, the person with the advantage has.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
kymma shadow on Feb 13, 2014 wrote:
Then have tc warlord join higher lvl wizard
Kymma, that is exactly what happens. As you gain rank, you get put up against harder and harder opponents.

In the match that made my commander into a warlord, my level 14 wizard was put up against a master-level wizard, that is, a wizard over level 40. How do you think my little 14 wizard with his little deck and little spells would ever be able to stand a chance against someone level 40, without the use of TC? There is little chance at all -- unless, perhaps the other guy had his computer freeze so he could not fight. But I did use TC effectively, and now I am a warlord.

In the past, I too spent a lot of time being upset at how unfair PVP is -- sometimes I still do (especially at extreme rank differences). But what I have done lately, is let the other players school me on how to play. If they beat me, I watch How they beat me, and try to learn from it. They are showing me what works in PVP. Instead of just getting mad at them, I learn what they teach, and learn how to do it myself.

Getting mad because the system is not how you imagine you would like it to be will never make you a winner. Instead of getting mad, turn yourself into a student of the game, and see what happens. If it is allowed and part of the system, then learn how to work the system effectively.

The difference for me is that the last wizard I had in PVP never made it past a Private whose rating was going downward. My current wizard is a Warlord gaining rank.

I don't have to imitate the players who are rude or mean -- I still think that behavior stinks. But I do let myself learn from the players who obviously know how to win matches. One of the things winning players know how to do is to use TC effectively. Some also use minions to good advantage -- which is another thing I used to get mad about, and now will sometimes do myself.

There is a cost to this strategy, both in pips and in gold -- and in the time it takes to farm for gold. I have had to work my little wizard (who is now up to level16) a lot, to get him where he is. He is hardly a "fake" warlord. He is rather a hard-working student of the game learning what works and what does not.

Survivor
Dec 06, 2011
3
Brooke Emeraldshar... on Jan 4, 2014 wrote:
I like to PVP, but when I went into a match with some friends the people against us used high level treasure cards and crushed us. They then bragged about it and said girls can't PVP. They also said they were going to post something on facebook about beating us. Anything you can do about people using high level TC in PVP?

- Brooke Emeraldshard
Level 40,
I used to hate when people used tc in pvp, it made me so mad, but then i decided well if people use tc i would to so i just get shields and shatter and stuff like that (no attacks) and i weaken them and boost me so if they tc efreet me it is weaker so i think you should try that, plus i agree i preferred the old days pvp

Mason Shadowstaff lvl 79 in lake shore of avalon

Survivor
Dec 06, 2011
3
Brooke Emeraldshar... on Jan 4, 2014 wrote:
I like to PVP, but when I went into a match with some friends the people against us used high level treasure cards and crushed us. They then bragged about it and said girls can't PVP. They also said they were going to post something on facebook about beating us. Anything you can do about people using high level TC in PVP?

- Brooke Emeraldshard
Level 40,
i totally agree with the part of when people use high level tc so here is a tip and its what i do on my pvp wizards (i like to pvp with fire wizards) get a bunch of tc like boosts tower shield weakness shatter and stuff to weaken them boost you and take shields away maybe also some minions, then they can't efreet you or anything cause i used to like older days pvp.

Mason Shadowstaff lvl 79 in lake shore avalon(avalon isn't so hard for life when you get a deck of vengeance forest lord, boosts, and a few heals to play it safe)

Delver
Mar 07, 2012
212
I just created the most hilarious scene in my mind. My wizard, Alexis Swiftblade, fighting an adept with a scarab. I faced levels much higher then me (19 twice, 30 once) and won each time, with my trusty Judgement of course. I am a level 5 veteran, and I could not have gotten there without my treasure cards, I don't think any other low-leveled pvpers could either. So, I strongly disagree about getting rid of treasure cards in PvP.

~ Vanessa/Alexis

Edit: I'm a PvP knight now. :D

Champion
Feb 29, 2012
488
kymma shadow on Feb 13, 2014 wrote:
Then have tc warlord join higher lvl wizard
That right there would be what many consider puppeting though. Of the two, puppeting is the one more generally frowned on, as it indicates a lack of skill against opponents one's own level or the lack of the will needed to learn how to PvP.

Of the two, I know what I'd rather face. Treasure card Warlords are generally predictable and easy to beat, given you know what cards to play at what time. Puppets team, on the other hand, will often be much higher leveled than me and thus will be able to defeat me and my partner(s) within a few rounds if they're a good puppet team, seeing as how they can access higher level spells, making it fair for them to use them.

The ones me and my partners faced were a level 5, 48 and 35 team with very low ranks. They were up against three high ranked level 10s. Through some stroke of luck my team managed to win, but considering the huge level difference between their highest and their lowest level players, I don't think the match should have been allowed to be made in the first place. The only way we could win was by using treasure cards and pet cards, seeing as how my normal attacks and my partners' attacks wouldn't have been able to defeat all of them. Definitely the level five and maybe the level thirty as well, but using normal attacks on the level forty would have gotten us nowhere.

Was it fair to use treasure cards/higher ranked pet cards in that battle? I think so, seeing as how normal attacks wouldn't get us far. Treasure cards don't indicate a lack of skill if one knows when they need to use them and when they can get away with not using them. It also takes skill to correctly time a treasure card attack, because once it's used, it's gone. The opponent can heal it off if they didn't die the first time or, if you were at low health when you attacked, they can opt to attack in the hopes that they could narrowly win the match. (I find this last thing funny when it happens. Don't know about others, but sometimes getting a laugh in about how the underdog was able to win makes me feel better.)

Going along with the last sentence, please remember that PvP was made for people to have fun. It's not the main point of the game, and I don't think that it should ever be considered as one. Questing has always been what the game was made for, PvP is just a fun add-on. Remember, just have fun. If you're having fun it doesn't matter if you win or lose. And heck, if you have fun you may unknowingly start to document others' strategies and start learning ways to counter them.

Just remember, PvP was made for people to unwind. Try to have fun and don't get worked up if someone uses something you don't like. Remeber to relax before each match, I find that it helps a lot. A quick comment or question about others' strategies can get you a lot of tips and maybe even a few friends. And for those people being rude, an ignore, report if bad enough, and port away does wonders.

Scarlet Nightdreamer level 95
Vanessa Drake, level 10

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Diamond Dust on Feb 12, 2014 wrote:
Uh first of all, Treasure cards are NOT weaker versions of the spell
look at the differences in the spell and TC of efreet:

http://www.wizard101central.com/wiki/Spell:Efreet

http://www.wizard101central.com/wiki/TreasureCard:Efreet

a hundred points difference, Treasure cards are better than the original spells.

Now, about how we shouldn't PvP at all, why not make the game fun for everyone huh, its not a bad idea at all. Some people think its unfair a lvl 1 warlord, with 49% uni resist, and a 35% in all damage. doing 8000 damage with efreet. That is a little extreme. True some people like TC cards and available to everyone, but everyone doesn't like playing people who doesn't know the spell. They want to face with the spells they learned through dedication of the studies they did with there teachers. They want there own SKILL that they learned, the spells they mastered, not one time use spells. Imo it would help everyone out, so this isn't a waste full comment. now the trolls can come out now

"Ice is delicate and beautiful, but it can be tough and deadly"
Angel lvl 85
Clearly you have never used your own spells with sun school. They are FAR more powerful than TC.
TC Efreet is 90 points higher than Efreet. Colossal Efreet is 275 points higher. That might not seem like much to you, but that's base damage so it's multiplied by all boosts, blades or traps.

It's even more pronounced with lower level spells that are more common in PvP. 3-4 pip spells are doubled in damage, effectively adding a 100% blade without even spending a turn.

Being higher level gives you all the advantages. You TC haters keep referring to SKILL as meaning using only your own spells. That's not skill, that's LACK of skill. It's not using the tools given by the game to everyone. It's stubborn short-sightedness. If you lose to a lower level player because they used TC, you deserved to lose and lacked the SKILL to win despite all your advantages. TC didn't make you lose the battle to a lower level player, your style or tactics did. If a low level player casting TC Efreet at you beat you, dispite have no critical or school boost... how do you expect to compete with a REAL Efreet cast by a wizard your own level with over 300 critical and +70 damage. Granted a wizard of that level wouldn't be using Efreet when they could do more damage with low level spells. The point remains the same.

Explorer
Aug 15, 2012
77
Aaron SpellThief on Feb 13, 2014 wrote:
For everyone who has said, "Treasure cards should be banned. High level gear should be updated. New systems need to be implemented because I can't beat treasure cards. Treasure cards are unfair." please, think about it from the treasure card user's perspective. Imagine you're a level 50 battling a level 80 with 300 critical and 70% damage. You have maybe 100 block, 50-54 resist, slight healing boost, and maybe 50 damage. Please tell me; no matter what school you are, how are you supposed to fit everything you need in your main deck? Most schools, at level 50, do not get extremely high powered attacks that are needed to defeat players similar to the one in this example. They have much better stats than you. Although, in this example, I only put their damage stats, they will probably have 2-4 times your health, somewhat less resist than you, and much better healing boost. They will have access to more treasure cards and many more normal spells. They can quickly stack up tons of damage, so you, as a level 50 warlord, will need to debuff or shield often. Without treasure cards, level 50 warlords would be stuck using low pip attacks that would hardly put a dent in their opponent's health, while their opponent would be using critical attacks with more damage boost, and more powerful base damage to begin with. The only advantage the level 50 warlord has is some resist and "skill," which everyone seems to think is a much larger factor in pvp than level. Please tell me; how is it fair for a level 50 to be battling someone with many more advantages than them? That's like asking a student to score higher on a test than another student that is several years ahead of them in school. It can happen, but won't happen consistently, and the younger student won't have much of a chance. It's not so much about how good the lower is, just about how much of an advantage the higher level, or in the student example, how much extra learning, the person with the advantage has.
It not so much as getting rid of tc cards, it more just a plan to end the tc stuff, a Classic mode in Ranked would be best for the people don't wanting to use tc, if you want all of it, you can go with Regular PvP. It's NOT BANNING tc, just giving a compromise to people, so this TC argument will be demolished and rid of.

" Ice is delicate and beautiful, but can be fierce and deadly "

Angel lvl 85
and others

Explorer
Jan 27, 2011
97
Aaron SpellThief on Feb 13, 2014 wrote:
For everyone who has said, "Treasure cards should be banned. High level gear should be updated. New systems need to be implemented because I can't beat treasure cards. Treasure cards are unfair." please, think about it from the treasure card user's perspective. Imagine you're a level 50 battling a level 80 with 300 critical and 70% damage. You have maybe 100 block, 50-54 resist, slight healing boost, and maybe 50 damage. Please tell me; no matter what school you are, how are you supposed to fit everything you need in your main deck? Most schools, at level 50, do not get extremely high powered attacks that are needed to defeat players similar to the one in this example. They have much better stats than you. Although, in this example, I only put their damage stats, they will probably have 2-4 times your health, somewhat less resist than you, and much better healing boost. They will have access to more treasure cards and many more normal spells. They can quickly stack up tons of damage, so you, as a level 50 warlord, will need to debuff or shield often. Without treasure cards, level 50 warlords would be stuck using low pip attacks that would hardly put a dent in their opponent's health, while their opponent would be using critical attacks with more damage boost, and more powerful base damage to begin with. The only advantage the level 50 warlord has is some resist and "skill," which everyone seems to think is a much larger factor in pvp than level. Please tell me; how is it fair for a level 50 to be battling someone with many more advantages than them? That's like asking a student to score higher on a test than another student that is several years ahead of them in school. It can happen, but won't happen consistently, and the younger student won't have much of a chance. It's not so much about how good the lower is, just about how much of an advantage the higher level, or in the student example, how much extra learning, the person with the advantage has.
How does implementing the Classic PvP system affect this in any way? All that does is give you the OPTION to choose a match that allows TC and a match that doesn't. And lol I know I'VE been looking at things from a TC users perspective, non-TC users, PvPers in general, and those who don't care about PvP at all. I'm on the fence when it comes to TC usage in PvP, though I will support an idea, such as implementing Classic PvP in Ranked PvP, if I feel it will benefit the general population. (Btw I'm not suggesting to implement the system because I can't beat TC, I'm suggesting it because everyone has their own way of playing. Some people love using TC, others prefer to save them for PvE or just put their gold towards things they deem more important)

Well the way the Ranking system is devised is based on your Rank and Level, so if you're a level 50 Warlord you're going to end up fighting fellow wizards that are a lot higher level than you. Why? Because the system sees you as an experienced PvPer, for being a Warlord at mid level cap, and a Promethean Private is seen as someone with little experience, even though they're a lot stronger than you. That is why the system sees it as 'fair' (though I do agreed that the level match ups are ridiculous sometimes)

I've noticed a lot of the complaints in PvP in general are from lower level PvPers, which is a little ridiculous in my opinion. If you're , like your example, a level 50 Warlord and are facing Prometheans and TC can't help you then it would stand to reason (and common sense) that maybe you should work on leveling to a higher level so you have the better gear and health to stand a better chance. When lower level PvPers complain about having to face the higher levels it makes us higher levels, who worked hard to get to our levels, feel as if we're hated in PvP to put it lightly.
Anyways, simply put: If you're struggling at a lower level then LEVEL UP. The best levels to PvP are either at the beginning low levels, or near the level cap. Being in the middle makes it a lot more difficult because you could end up fighting anyone at any level, whereas being a Promethean means you'll either fight people your level and below.

R.I.P.
Morgrim, Lvl. 85

Survivor
Jan 28, 2014
11
I'm new to PvP and this has happened to me every single time I try to go on low-level PvP. Someone just has to bring some Rank 6+ treasure cards in. They usually set up blades, trap and feints before casting their treasure cards in PvP, in my experience. It's like bringing a gun to a sword fight. Kind of gives you an unfair advantage.

- Fiona Griffingrove Lvl 26

Champion
Oct 30, 2011
449
Nightblood1995 on Feb 14, 2014 wrote:
How does implementing the Classic PvP system affect this in any way? All that does is give you the OPTION to choose a match that allows TC and a match that doesn't. And lol I know I'VE been looking at things from a TC users perspective, non-TC users, PvPers in general, and those who don't care about PvP at all. I'm on the fence when it comes to TC usage in PvP, though I will support an idea, such as implementing Classic PvP in Ranked PvP, if I feel it will benefit the general population. (Btw I'm not suggesting to implement the system because I can't beat TC, I'm suggesting it because everyone has their own way of playing. Some people love using TC, others prefer to save them for PvE or just put their gold towards things they deem more important)

Well the way the Ranking system is devised is based on your Rank and Level, so if you're a level 50 Warlord you're going to end up fighting fellow wizards that are a lot higher level than you. Why? Because the system sees you as an experienced PvPer, for being a Warlord at mid level cap, and a Promethean Private is seen as someone with little experience, even though they're a lot stronger than you. That is why the system sees it as 'fair' (though I do agreed that the level match ups are ridiculous sometimes)

I've noticed a lot of the complaints in PvP in general are from lower level PvPers, which is a little ridiculous in my opinion. If you're , like your example, a level 50 Warlord and are facing Prometheans and TC can't help you then it would stand to reason (and common sense) that maybe you should work on leveling to a higher level so you have the better gear and health to stand a better chance. When lower level PvPers complain about having to face the higher levels it makes us higher levels, who worked hard to get to our levels, feel as if we're hated in PvP to put it lightly.
Anyways, simply put: If you're struggling at a lower level then LEVEL UP. The best levels to PvP are either at the beginning low levels, or near the level cap. Being in the middle makes it a lot more difficult because you could end up fighting anyone at any level, whereas being a Promethean means you'll either fight people your level and below.

R.I.P.
Morgrim, Lvl. 85
As I have said before, although not in that particular post, creating a classic ranked system would cut the pvp community in half. Match times would become significantly longer than they already were. Leveling up would destroy any prospect of me doing pvp. If I leveled to, say, 60, I'd be battling warlords that are level 90 instead of privates that are 95. If I leveled to max, I would never get a match. There are around 130 people higher on the leaderboard than I, and few, if any, are level 95. This would mean I would have to wait hours to get matches, which is not fun to do. Is it too much to ask to get a fair match for once? The massive problem with the ranking system is that Kingsisle gives rank a much higher influence in matching than it should have. No amount of skill can defeat a player with 4 times your stats from second. It's simply not a fair match. Even in the current ranking system, it is quite possible to win without the use of treasure cards. I have done it. It simply becomes impossible after a certain point, as higher level players simply have huge advantages over you. Players use treasure cards to combat these. You'll notice that the vast majority of the complaints about treasure cards are from privates. I'm not saying that warlords don't occasionally complain. If these privates used a discernable strategy, then there would be far fewer complaints about treasure cards on the forums, and everywhere else. Many of these privates cannot beat treasure cards, which they have access to, so they post about nerfing treasure cards. Someone posted on these message boards a great point. It was something like "If everything people asked to be removed was removed, the only thing we would be able to use would be wands." Just because a few players don't like or can't beat something doesn't mean that kingsisle should waste time and money on something that will infuriate most of the pvp players that pay a lot of money, who are probably some of Kingsisle's main customers. If the matching system was fair, there would be no need for treasure cards. Even if there was, say, a 20 level cap in either direction of the people you can battle, it would be quite possible to win without treasure cards. As is, though, warlords need treasure cards to even hope to defeat the ridiculous level differences they are faced with.

Explorer
Jan 27, 2011
97
seethe42 on Feb 14, 2014 wrote:
Clearly you have never used your own spells with sun school. They are FAR more powerful than TC.
TC Efreet is 90 points higher than Efreet. Colossal Efreet is 275 points higher. That might not seem like much to you, but that's base damage so it's multiplied by all boosts, blades or traps.

It's even more pronounced with lower level spells that are more common in PvP. 3-4 pip spells are doubled in damage, effectively adding a 100% blade without even spending a turn.

Being higher level gives you all the advantages. You TC haters keep referring to SKILL as meaning using only your own spells. That's not skill, that's LACK of skill. It's not using the tools given by the game to everyone. It's stubborn short-sightedness. If you lose to a lower level player because they used TC, you deserved to lose and lacked the SKILL to win despite all your advantages. TC didn't make you lose the battle to a lower level player, your style or tactics did. If a low level player casting TC Efreet at you beat you, dispite have no critical or school boost... how do you expect to compete with a REAL Efreet cast by a wizard your own level with over 300 critical and +70 damage. Granted a wizard of that level wouldn't be using Efreet when they could do more damage with low level spells. The point remains the same.
Um, so what I'm getting here is if you don't use TC you lack skill, which you clearly stated in your third paragraph. Wow. So I stack Colossal enchant on a learned spell, then increase it with Amplify and that is considered lacking skill? Non of those are TCs (that I'm referring to at least).

And I'm no TC hater. So I know I had a debate with Duncan Grimwater on the issue but I also drew a very fine line between using skill and using luck. I quite frankly always have healing TC on hand no matter what as a fail safe. However I'm not going to just use them knowing they cost me a good amount of gold. I save 99% of my TC for PvE, PvP isn't worth it (in my opinion).

But ya how does using only our spells prove lack of skill? It's showing we've looked at our learned spells from all angles, trying to manipulate them and use them in ways other wizards never thought possible. I just recently realized I can use Beguile right before a boss attacks (or PvPer) and in that same round make my target hit their ally and not me. But, since it wasn't a TC, that's not skill from what I'm getting. Ok here's another incident. A boss hits me with an Efreet, putting a 90% weakness on me. In a counter move I use Bad Juju to essentially flip the massive weakness back on him. But, again, since I used my learned spell and not a TC, that's not skill. So tell me, what would you call that? Luck? There's no luck involved, it all happened as planned. So I fail to see 'lack of skill' in any of those incidents (all of which are true accounts btw). To add to my point, I guess those wizards dedicated enough to level to learn Shadow Magic hold no skill at all, huh? Even though it took a level of skill to beat the cheating monsters to get there. But, since Shadow Magic isn't a TC, they have no skill. I guess everything revolves around PvP nowadays. Pity. (Yes, this annoyed me because whether you use or don't use TC that alone doesn't judge skill, it's HOW the TC and spells are used).

So if you lose to a lower level using TC you deserve to lose? Where is the logic in that? What if the lower level just got lucky with a couple Wild Bolt TC? You fail to realize that PvP gear and PvE gear are entirely different gear sets, and I can vouch for us higher levels when we say PvP gear is a lot more powerful than PvE gear. 'Quit complaining and get the gear' you're about to say? Sure. Let me shell out thousands of tickets that I DON'T HAVE. Do matches and get the tickets? Ha! For the little tickets you get for winning, and the amount you need for a PvP hat ALONE isn't worth the time and stress.

Before you label me a PvP/TC hater I would like to remind you that I am the neutral one here. I've used TC and haven't, so I'm on the fence about TC issues. As I continue to say: implement an option in Ranked PvP for players to choose what play style fits them and let it be the end of it.

R.I.P.
Morgrim, Lvl 85

Delver
Jan 31, 2012
226
FinnAgainWindrider on Feb 13, 2014 wrote:
Kymma, that is exactly what happens. As you gain rank, you get put up against harder and harder opponents.

In the match that made my commander into a warlord, my level 14 wizard was put up against a master-level wizard, that is, a wizard over level 40. How do you think my little 14 wizard with his little deck and little spells would ever be able to stand a chance against someone level 40, without the use of TC? There is little chance at all -- unless, perhaps the other guy had his computer freeze so he could not fight. But I did use TC effectively, and now I am a warlord.

In the past, I too spent a lot of time being upset at how unfair PVP is -- sometimes I still do (especially at extreme rank differences). But what I have done lately, is let the other players school me on how to play. If they beat me, I watch How they beat me, and try to learn from it. They are showing me what works in PVP. Instead of just getting mad at them, I learn what they teach, and learn how to do it myself.

Getting mad because the system is not how you imagine you would like it to be will never make you a winner. Instead of getting mad, turn yourself into a student of the game, and see what happens. If it is allowed and part of the system, then learn how to work the system effectively.

The difference for me is that the last wizard I had in PVP never made it past a Private whose rating was going downward. My current wizard is a Warlord gaining rank.

I don't have to imitate the players who are rude or mean -- I still think that behavior stinks. But I do let myself learn from the players who obviously know how to win matches. One of the things winning players know how to do is to use TC effectively. Some also use minions to good advantage -- which is another thing I used to get mad about, and now will sometimes do myself.

There is a cost to this strategy, both in pips and in gold -- and in the time it takes to farm for gold. I have had to work my little wizard (who is now up to level16) a lot, to get him where he is. He is hardly a "fake" warlord. He is rather a hard-working student of the game learning what works and what does not.
I ment fight with them not against them and I ment with Amy my balance wizard.

Delver
Jan 31, 2012
226
Scarlet Nightdream... on Feb 14, 2014 wrote:
That right there would be what many consider puppeting though. Of the two, puppeting is the one more generally frowned on, as it indicates a lack of skill against opponents one's own level or the lack of the will needed to learn how to PvP.

Of the two, I know what I'd rather face. Treasure card Warlords are generally predictable and easy to beat, given you know what cards to play at what time. Puppets team, on the other hand, will often be much higher leveled than me and thus will be able to defeat me and my partner(s) within a few rounds if they're a good puppet team, seeing as how they can access higher level spells, making it fair for them to use them.

The ones me and my partners faced were a level 5, 48 and 35 team with very low ranks. They were up against three high ranked level 10s. Through some stroke of luck my team managed to win, but considering the huge level difference between their highest and their lowest level players, I don't think the match should have been allowed to be made in the first place. The only way we could win was by using treasure cards and pet cards, seeing as how my normal attacks and my partners' attacks wouldn't have been able to defeat all of them. Definitely the level five and maybe the level thirty as well, but using normal attacks on the level forty would have gotten us nowhere.

Was it fair to use treasure cards/higher ranked pet cards in that battle? I think so, seeing as how normal attacks wouldn't get us far. Treasure cards don't indicate a lack of skill if one knows when they need to use them and when they can get away with not using them. It also takes skill to correctly time a treasure card attack, because once it's used, it's gone. The opponent can heal it off if they didn't die the first time or, if you were at low health when you attacked, they can opt to attack in the hopes that they could narrowly win the match. (I find this last thing funny when it happens. Don't know about others, but sometimes getting a laugh in about how the underdog was able to win makes me feel better.)

Going along with the last sentence, please remember that PvP was made for people to have fun. It's not the main point of the game, and I don't think that it should ever be considered as one. Questing has always been what the game was made for, PvP is just a fun add-on. Remember, just have fun. If you're having fun it doesn't matter if you win or lose. And heck, if you have fun you may unknowingly start to document others' strategies and start learning ways to counter them.

Just remember, PvP was made for people to unwind. Try to have fun and don't get worked up if someone uses something you don't like. Remeber to relax before each match, I find that it helps a lot. A quick comment or question about others' strategies can get you a lot of tips and maybe even a few friends. And for those people being rude, an ignore, report if bad enough, and port away does wonders.

Scarlet Nightdreamer level 95
Vanessa Drake, level 10
I meant the high lvl wizard should be put with the tc warlord not against them and it not puppetting. The warlord are wrong about puppetting.

Delver
Jan 31, 2012
226
Diamond Dust on Feb 14, 2014 wrote:
It not so much as getting rid of tc cards, it more just a plan to end the tc stuff, a Classic mode in Ranked would be best for the people don't wanting to use tc, if you want all of it, you can go with Regular PvP. It's NOT BANNING tc, just giving a compromise to people, so this TC argument will be demolished and rid of.

" Ice is delicate and beautiful, but can be fierce and deadly "

Angel lvl 85
and others
I agree with you. And didn't say I wanted tc banded.

Explorer
Aug 15, 2012
77
seethe42 on Feb 14, 2014 wrote:
Clearly you have never used your own spells with sun school. They are FAR more powerful than TC.
TC Efreet is 90 points higher than Efreet. Colossal Efreet is 275 points higher. That might not seem like much to you, but that's base damage so it's multiplied by all boosts, blades or traps.

It's even more pronounced with lower level spells that are more common in PvP. 3-4 pip spells are doubled in damage, effectively adding a 100% blade without even spending a turn.

Being higher level gives you all the advantages. You TC haters keep referring to SKILL as meaning using only your own spells. That's not skill, that's LACK of skill. It's not using the tools given by the game to everyone. It's stubborn short-sightedness. If you lose to a lower level player because they used TC, you deserved to lose and lacked the SKILL to win despite all your advantages. TC didn't make you lose the battle to a lower level player, your style or tactics did. If a low level player casting TC Efreet at you beat you, dispite have no critical or school boost... how do you expect to compete with a REAL Efreet cast by a wizard your own level with over 300 critical and +70 damage. Granted a wizard of that level wouldn't be using Efreet when they could do more damage with low level spells. The point remains the same.
Twisting my words are we? No I said the TC are stronger than the REGULAR SPELL. But some people will not use sun spells I don't know why but they don't. So don't twist my words, if you use sun enchantments then yes that is a different story.

Being higher level does not give you all the advantage, that is clearly just your opinion. Have you seen some of these warlords? They have stats almost equal to the WaterWorks Gear, so you can not say there puny, or anything, the only thing that is wrong is health base. I seen some warlords that lvl 15 that has no shields get hit with a sun enchanted efreet and it only does 300, then the fairy heals them. damage negated the only thing is a weakness.

When I say Skill, I mean something that you put your time into learning, work hard at it, you studied half a life for. For Example, Brain surgeon needs to do brain surgery, studied his whole life for this particular subject and everything, or would you use someone that read about brain surgery and read 30 pages of a text book?
that is what I am getting at

Warlords with no school boost your joking right?

are you kidding? critical pretty much doubles the damage. now a tower shield cancels that out, not to mention the warlords resist, and any other shields he has on him, not to mention weakness.

and ONCE AGAIN we are not trying to ban tc, we want where YOU CAN CHOOSE what type of play you want, this will make EVERYONE happy on the tc part

Tell me where we said ban the tc?

" Ice is delicate and beautiful, but can be fierce and deadly"

Angel lvl 85
and others

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Nightblood1995 on Feb 15, 2014 wrote:
Um, so what I'm getting here is if you don't use TC you lack skill, which you clearly stated in your third paragraph. Wow. So I stack Colossal enchant on a learned spell, then increase it with Amplify and that is considered lacking skill? Non of those are TCs (that I'm referring to at least).

And I'm no TC hater. So I know I had a debate with Duncan Grimwater on the issue but I also drew a very fine line between using skill and using luck. I quite frankly always have healing TC on hand no matter what as a fail safe. However I'm not going to just use them knowing they cost me a good amount of gold. I save 99% of my TC for PvE, PvP isn't worth it (in my opinion).

But ya how does using only our spells prove lack of skill? It's showing we've looked at our learned spells from all angles, trying to manipulate them and use them in ways other wizards never thought possible. I just recently realized I can use Beguile right before a boss attacks (or PvPer) and in that same round make my target hit their ally and not me. But, since it wasn't a TC, that's not skill from what I'm getting. Ok here's another incident. A boss hits me with an Efreet, putting a 90% weakness on me. In a counter move I use Bad Juju to essentially flip the massive weakness back on him. But, again, since I used my learned spell and not a TC, that's not skill. So tell me, what would you call that? Luck? There's no luck involved, it all happened as planned. So I fail to see 'lack of skill' in any of those incidents (all of which are true accounts btw). To add to my point, I guess those wizards dedicated enough to level to learn Shadow Magic hold no skill at all, huh? Even though it took a level of skill to beat the cheating monsters to get there. But, since Shadow Magic isn't a TC, they have no skill. I guess everything revolves around PvP nowadays. Pity. (Yes, this annoyed me because whether you use or don't use TC that alone doesn't judge skill, it's HOW the TC and spells are used).

So if you lose to a lower level using TC you deserve to lose? Where is the logic in that? What if the lower level just got lucky with a couple Wild Bolt TC? You fail to realize that PvP gear and PvE gear are entirely different gear sets, and I can vouch for us higher levels when we say PvP gear is a lot more powerful than PvE gear. 'Quit complaining and get the gear' you're about to say? Sure. Let me shell out thousands of tickets that I DON'T HAVE. Do matches and get the tickets? Ha! For the little tickets you get for winning, and the amount you need for a PvP hat ALONE isn't worth the time and stress.

Before you label me a PvP/TC hater I would like to remind you that I am the neutral one here. I've used TC and haven't, so I'm on the fence about TC issues. As I continue to say: implement an option in Ranked PvP for players to choose what play style fits them and let it be the end of it.

R.I.P.
Morgrim, Lvl 85
I never said using your own spells shows a lack of skill. I never TC attack cards personally because they are too weak. Saying that TC should not be allowed or that using TC shows lack of skill are completely wrong. NOT using TC does show a lack of intelligence, I never said the TC had to be attacks. You must have read a completely different post than mine. Learn to read please.

Explorer
Jan 27, 2011
97
Aaron SpellThief on Feb 15, 2014 wrote:
As I have said before, although not in that particular post, creating a classic ranked system would cut the pvp community in half. Match times would become significantly longer than they already were. Leveling up would destroy any prospect of me doing pvp. If I leveled to, say, 60, I'd be battling warlords that are level 90 instead of privates that are 95. If I leveled to max, I would never get a match. There are around 130 people higher on the leaderboard than I, and few, if any, are level 95. This would mean I would have to wait hours to get matches, which is not fun to do. Is it too much to ask to get a fair match for once? The massive problem with the ranking system is that Kingsisle gives rank a much higher influence in matching than it should have. No amount of skill can defeat a player with 4 times your stats from second. It's simply not a fair match. Even in the current ranking system, it is quite possible to win without the use of treasure cards. I have done it. It simply becomes impossible after a certain point, as higher level players simply have huge advantages over you. Players use treasure cards to combat these. You'll notice that the vast majority of the complaints about treasure cards are from privates. I'm not saying that warlords don't occasionally complain. If these privates used a discernable strategy, then there would be far fewer complaints about treasure cards on the forums, and everywhere else. Many of these privates cannot beat treasure cards, which they have access to, so they post about nerfing treasure cards. Someone posted on these message boards a great point. It was something like "If everything people asked to be removed was removed, the only thing we would be able to use would be wands." Just because a few players don't like or can't beat something doesn't mean that kingsisle should waste time and money on something that will infuriate most of the pvp players that pay a lot of money, who are probably some of Kingsisle's main customers. If the matching system was fair, there would be no need for treasure cards. Even if there was, say, a 20 level cap in either direction of the people you can battle, it would be quite possible to win without treasure cards. As is, though, warlords need treasure cards to even hope to defeat the ridiculous level differences they are faced with.
I agree with the insane matching system. I've fallen victim to unfair matches as well (and I'm referring to what you're referring to: the insane level differences).

And I can see how implementing the system could POSSIBLY increase wait times. We don't know for sure until we try it. We don't know how many people prefer to use TC and who don't. It could work, it could fail, but you'll never know if you don't TRY it.

Eh, like I said when it comes to TC I'm on the fence. I'm only a Private because I don't care too much for PvP. I do carry TC, mainly heals and some extra supports such as Bad Juju and Beguile in case mine don't show at the right time, but I try not to use them as much as possible since they could also be used in the crazy boss battles in Azteca (hate that world lol)

I did hear about that one quote, the one about 'if KI took everything out we'd only use wands'. It's true, and I'm not saying to get rid of TC at all or nerf gear. I'm trying to find a median where PvPers and PvEers can reach a compromise. lol I'm looking at the bigger picture, not just how it affects me. I can adapt and overcome if need be.

But ya the flawed match ups definitely need to be fixed. I say you should only get matched up with someone in this fashion: Levels 1-10 get matched up together, lvl 11-20, and so on. If you're within those level ranges those are the possible levels you could face, regardless of your Rank. That way it gives Privates a fair chance to raise their Rank and it gives Warlords a fair chance to keep their rank. Just and idea though, I can see where there may be problems.

R.I.P.
Morgrim, Lvl. 85

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
kymma shadow on Feb 15, 2014 wrote:
I ment fight with them not against them and I ment with Amy my balance wizard.
Well, if you put a low level up on the same team as a high level, then that would be puppeting, and is very much frowned on.

Anyway, I still invite you to consider approaching this TC issue as a student of the game. Rather than just getting angry when people do things you don't expect them to do, try learning from the matches you are in. Rather than trying to "buck the system," try to learn how to work the system.

It makes the whole experience much less stressful, much more fun, and much more rewarding. It changed me from a losing Private to a winning Warlord.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
kymma shadow on Feb 15, 2014 wrote:
I meant the high lvl wizard should be put with the tc warlord not against them and it not puppetting. The warlord are wrong about puppetting.
Stop blaming warlords for puppetting, privates do too.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
kymma shadow on Feb 1, 2014 wrote:
If you use tc cards you are not a warlord at all. You are just a fake warlord and if king isle doesn't reduce the tc cards to 4,000 damage points then I'm going to buy all the high tc cards and delete them.
I have a lvl 22 ice warlord who uses tc in pvp and I don't like being called a "fake" warlord when I vs people 20+ levels above me and win. Sometimes I win sometimes I don't. You probably don't have a warlord and have no idea how it is for low and mid level warlords. I bet you call your matches "unfair" because you vs a warlord using tc even when you can too. Well I call my matches unfair because I vs people way higher of a lvl than me. How about you get a lvl 22 ice warlord with a rank of over 1000 and see if you can beat your opponents without tc. Btw, there is no spell or tc that does 4000 damage so please stop making up tc that doesn't exist.