Welcome to the Wizard101 Message Boards


Player Guide
Fansites
News
Game Updates
Help

By posting on the Wizard101 Message Boards you agree to the Code of Conduct.

Who is OP in PVP, not Balance for sure.

AuthorMessage
Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
You forgot to include storm owl which has a massive jump in dpp as all the other 10 pip spells also do. As you can see my rule that higher pip costs justifies higher dpp is correct. The degree of change may vary but the change itself is ever-increasing, further supporting my assertion.
Thank you Eric,

This was the exact comment I was hoping for. As when you don't follow any rules, you are
constantly leaving out key data. The key data I purposely left out was Storm Owl, and the increase.
Why, because I wanted to make a point, knowing you would attack that very point.
Adding the average of all spells, whether they have aftereffects, DOT, AOT, etc, means nothing to me.
What if one school has four DOT spells, another has Five AOT (attack all targets)
spells, the next one has none, but has double aftereffects. That is exactly my point, adding in the
average of a spells, not taking into consideration of the type of spells and aftereffects skews the data.
You have been giving me information that I cannot use when you generate your averages, it's useless
data. It's a mixed bag of meaningless information, like a puzzle thrown on the table.

At least we have made some headway, you have corrected Part 1 of my Rules, and this gives us a
starting point.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric, my replies,

What adjustment do you keep referring to and how is it mathematically calculated? You asked me for the average of all crafted spells and I gave you the average.

>> Just like any calculus calls, you need to have rules. Generating values, and not following the
>> rules is a violation and will result in flawed data.

Why are you using the ice school to get the ballpark average of a death spell? Why not use the death school itself?

>> Because of the aftereffects in Death, and we have no standard yet for Calculating the
>> aftereffects standards. These are part of the adjustments that I was referring too.

Of course they change the dpp....they lower it(in all cases except DoT) which is the crux of my argument. Once again I'll ask what compensation you are making, how you are making it and how it is mathematically applied.

>> Hence the crux of my argument, they change the dpp and you do not compensate for the way
>> they change the dpp. So, as stated before, if one school have five dot, one has one dot and one
>> AOT, and one only has aftereffects, you don't seem to care, you just average them all in together.
>> How do you justify doing this, how do you justify your results, how can you even consider them
>> valid to any degree. So the data below is useless.....

Actually the calculation of averages is that simple, that is what an average is. Of course if you want a meaningful comparison you would have to compare the average of Loremaster to similar spells which in this case are the crafted spells with effects....a calculation I already performed.


"Now lets take the average dpp of all crafted spells with effects:
Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Winter Moon+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Loremaster.

(325/4)+(325/4)+(495/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(430/4)/6=

Average dpp of all crafted spells with effects=92 dpp
Loremaster is far beyond the curve for average damage of crafted spells with effects"

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric stated:
"Now lets take the average dpp of all crafted spells with effects:
Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Winter Moon+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Loremaster.
(325/4)+(325/4)+(495/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(430/4)/6=
Average dpp of all crafted spells with effects=92 dpp

Keeper of the Flaem = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Krampus = also has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Winter Moom = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Luminous Weaver = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Savage Paw = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
LoreMaster = Two reduced aftereffects, what dpp are those worth.

Along with that, what dpp is an AOE spell worth, it can be calculated.
Along with that, what dpp is an DOT spell worth, it can be calculated.
You get my point, without me going on and on....

So, you have added in Myth, Fire, Ice, Life, and two Balance spells.
Where is Storm? Where is Deer Knight/Death? What is this, again, skewed data.

These are the reason that I keep disagreeing with 92 dpp, as I calculate it much
higher.

This is my point, if you don't adjust for the aftereffects, you cannot do a fair
comparison. Whether it be Non Crafted or Crafted, the spells must be put on an
even level. To do this, we must agree on rules, and then calculate the differences
between the aftereffects. The Calculations are simple, it's agreeing to the rules
and the percentages that we need to complete before we can move forward.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4118
Veracity8 on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Eric stated:
"Now lets take the average dpp of all crafted spells with effects:
Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Winter Moon+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Loremaster.
(325/4)+(325/4)+(495/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(430/4)/6=
Average dpp of all crafted spells with effects=92 dpp

Keeper of the Flaem = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Krampus = also has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Winter Moom = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Luminous Weaver = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Savage Paw = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
LoreMaster = Two reduced aftereffects, what dpp are those worth.

Along with that, what dpp is an AOE spell worth, it can be calculated.
Along with that, what dpp is an DOT spell worth, it can be calculated.
You get my point, without me going on and on....

So, you have added in Myth, Fire, Ice, Life, and two Balance spells.
Where is Storm? Where is Deer Knight/Death? What is this, again, skewed data.

These are the reason that I keep disagreeing with 92 dpp, as I calculate it much
higher.

This is my point, if you don't adjust for the aftereffects, you cannot do a fair
comparison. Whether it be Non Crafted or Crafted, the spells must be put on an
even level. To do this, we must agree on rules, and then calculate the differences
between the aftereffects. The Calculations are simple, it's agreeing to the rules
and the percentages that we need to complete before we can move forward.
This lack of logic just baffles me. He's comparing like spells, they ALL have aftereffects. Loremaster has TWO and it's still 15 dpp higher than the average of all the others that have only one. You seem to be saying that Loremaster's aftereffects have no value so should be ignored and give loremaster more DPP and we should only compare it with spell that have no effects. It's just mind boggling how you can come to any of these leaps in logic.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4118
Veracity8 on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Yes, too bad the original text in the Book as changed, as it did use the word average,
but we no longer that text available. So, per your own words,
"It states balance is equal to the other schools."

How can one school be equal to all others, if it is not an average of them.

A = b, c, d, e, f, and g and it's not an average.
Being equal in ability doesn't mean the average of those schools powers. Every school has strengths and weaknesses, that doesn't make any school unequal. By saying the schools are equal it doesn't say anything at all about every school having the average of all the others.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Oct 19, 2014 wrote:
This lack of logic just baffles me. He's comparing like spells, they ALL have aftereffects. Loremaster has TWO and it's still 15 dpp higher than the average of all the others that have only one. You seem to be saying that Loremaster's aftereffects have no value so should be ignored and give loremaster more DPP and we should only compare it with spell that have no effects. It's just mind boggling how you can come to any of these leaps in logic.
seethe42,
I honestly am not sure if your just joking, or just trying to provoke
me in these last two postings.

He's comparing like Crafted spells from a few of the schools, leaving out
the crafted spells that have the hardest hits. I think you have missed
that very, very important and key point.

What I am saying is that all aftereffects have to be rated, and see how
they affect the dpp. You have to compare spells with no aftereffect and
keep them at the same pip level. To me, it's confusing, that you missed
each and every key point that I brought up. Actually what you have stated,
has nothing to do, with what I stated. I feel that you have not read all
of the postings, and are missing key informaiton I have posted.

I believe you also missed my post on the base values of the wizard, gear
and spells that are needed for the overall rating asessment. I feel that
you have drawn these conclusions, without reading and understanding all of
the posts.

No where do I see anything that states Equal in Ability, can you show me
where Wizard101 states this?
By using the exact definitions of the word, I stated exactly what they
derive. Why do you think KI used the term Balance for a Balance wizard?
Why the Balance Scales, why three spirit and three Elemental wizards, etc?

Since PvPKing and Eric have brought up very useful and key information, I
would like to use that to see where Balance really lies in the mix.
To do that, I would like to do several things, and have PvPKing and Eric,
correct flaws that I state. I feel by generating a set of rules, and then
calculating a value for each spell, crafted spell, level gear, and the
base of the Wizard, you can generate numeric values. These values can then
do a direct "Level" comparison. This is the only logical way to see if
LoreMaster is really overpowered to any degree.

Why do we need to do this, and why do we need to keep it mathematical?
Because, we can argue all day, and say, "Well the Crafted Myth spells and
Deer Knight are both OverPowered". We can also say, "Well, Insane bolt
and Savage Paw are Overpowered". We can go on and on, saying that each
school or each spell is overpowered. If you don't generate standards to
go by, then you have no reference to do a real comparison.

Finally, I understand you enjoy attacking me, but if you would be so
kind as not to make them personal. Attacking my logic by directly
attacking me is just not needed on the posts. Lets keep it on the
material or idea, and keep away from petty personal attacks.
If you find that you are getting so upset that you are unable to control
your input, then please don't post a reply to me.

If you have any trouble understanding this part of my post, please reread
Roland SilverHeart's posting, "PvP within the Message Boards".

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
Nevermind, I was wrong about Astraphobia not increasing armor pierce. My friend switched his gear before and after we tested the spell to test out the armor pierce, I didn't notice.

Spectral Blast is converted on the field, as are Hydra and Chimera. You can see this when as soon as the spell is cast, it comes increased by Balance damage first. Then comes critical, and then the blades, and the trap. That is still converted on the field, just at a different time than a converted Kraken, so my point is still proven. If Spectral Blast can hit up to 550 damage for only 4 pips and Loremaster hits at a maximum of 470 for 4 pips, then Loremaster is justified as a non-overpowered spell.

On field conversion is made for Hydra, but that's before the blades are consumed. In other words, it's directly after critical percentages are taken into account. This makes Hydra weaker than the average converted spell due to the lack of advantages, another reason why Balance isn't overpowered as thought to be, but it still is a Balance spell, and does follow Balance's normal dpp trend. Spectral Blast is "above" Balance's dpp trend while Hydra isn't, which is a clear sign that Balance does not have the same dpp trend as the other schools do.
That is the very point they are not converted on the field and the bubbles demonstrate this perfectly. We know that the new bubbles impart their effect before the base critical rating is calculated(since they enhance the critical rating). We also know that the critical rating applies to the balance spell hydra. Now if the bubbles effects are imparted at that segment and balances famage was converted afterwards as you claim then hydra would pick up the pierce from counterforce. It does not which is a clear indication that no on field conversion is made. What we can see from hydra, chimera and spectral blast is that non-balance damage balance spells tend to have a higher dpp than balance damage spells. As I keep mentioning to you Loremaster is a balance damage spell that is far above the dpp of other balance damage spells. Im not sure how that makes hydra weaker than other converted spells.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Orthrus dealing more dpp than Medusa (roughly Myth's normal dpp) is a clear sign that even if a spell attacks more than once, the dpp isn't decreased or altered in any way, neither is the base rule of the spell. If that is clearly shown through Orthrus and Minotaur, that they're both hitting twice with no consequence or change in rule at all, then it shows that Hydra and Chimera should have no change in rule at all compared to Spectral Blast, meaning that they should follow the same rule Spectral Blast does, despite the amount of hits the spell does. Unlike a DoT, the spell hits all at once, so you can't boost the effects of the spell later on. Because of that, the spell technically is all one big hit, just like Orthrus and Minotaur. If you can compare Hydra and Chimera to one big hit, and Spectral Blast as one hit, the three can be compared one to another. So, now, explain to me: Why do Hydra and Chimera's single headed hits not do a specific amount of Storm/Ice/Fire or Death/Myth/Life damage if your rule about Spectral Blast following only the Elemental school's dpp is correct?
The nature of Hydra/Chimera and Spectral Blast are different. Spectral Blast deals one of three possible elemental school damages and imitates there dpp. Hydra/Chimera deal 3 different schools type of damage all at once and does not imitate he associated school's dpp.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Yes, too bad the original text in the Book as changed, as it did use the word average,
but we no longer that text available. So, per your own words,
"It states balance is equal to the other schools."

How can one school be equal to all others, if it is not an average of them.

A = b, c, d, e, f, and g and it's not an average.
The same way all the schools are equal without being average. Storm is equal to all other school's it is not average. Life is also equal to all other schools it is not average.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Thank you for the correction, I had limited time to complete this and was in a rush.

On the matter of:
"Whether or not a "balanced blend" is equivalent to "average" has nothing to do with the
math behind the spells."

Wrong, it would completely control the math behind the spells, think about it.

We have to build a set of rules that we both agree on, if our math is to mean anything.
No it does not control the rules as we can see from analyzing any given balance spell that it is not the average of all other school's spells.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Thank you Eric,

This was the exact comment I was hoping for. As when you don't follow any rules, you are
constantly leaving out key data. The key data I purposely left out was Storm Owl, and the increase.
Why, because I wanted to make a point, knowing you would attack that very point.
Adding the average of all spells, whether they have aftereffects, DOT, AOT, etc, means nothing to me.
What if one school has four DOT spells, another has Five AOT (attack all targets)
spells, the next one has none, but has double aftereffects. That is exactly my point, adding in the
average of a spells, not taking into consideration of the type of spells and aftereffects skews the data.
You have been giving me information that I cannot use when you generate your averages, it's useless
data. It's a mixed bag of meaningless information, like a puzzle thrown on the table.

At least we have made some headway, you have corrected Part 1 of my Rules, and this gives us a
starting point.
Exactly: Key data as in relevant data. Your analysis involved single target hits with no effects and you left out a relevant piece: storm owl. You'll notice I did not point out you left out leviathan, artorious, storm lord or sirens. That is because those spells are irrelevant to the data set we are using. Similarly with loremaster: a spell with aftereffects. I made the average of spells with aftereffects(relevant data) and excluded the spells without effects(irrelevant data to our data set).

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Eric, my replies,

What adjustment do you keep referring to and how is it mathematically calculated? You asked me for the average of all crafted spells and I gave you the average.

>> Just like any calculus calls, you need to have rules. Generating values, and not following the
>> rules is a violation and will result in flawed data.

Why are you using the ice school to get the ballpark average of a death spell? Why not use the death school itself?

>> Because of the aftereffects in Death, and we have no standard yet for Calculating the
>> aftereffects standards. These are part of the adjustments that I was referring too.

Of course they change the dpp....they lower it(in all cases except DoT) which is the crux of my argument. Once again I'll ask what compensation you are making, how you are making it and how it is mathematically applied.

>> Hence the crux of my argument, they change the dpp and you do not compensate for the way
>> they change the dpp. So, as stated before, if one school have five dot, one has one dot and one
>> AOT, and one only has aftereffects, you don't seem to care, you just average them all in together.
>> How do you justify doing this, how do you justify your results, how can you even consider them
>> valid to any degree. So the data below is useless.....

Actually the calculation of averages is that simple, that is what an average is. Of course if you want a meaningful comparison you would have to compare the average of Loremaster to similar spells which in this case are the crafted spells with effects....a calculation I already performed.


"Now lets take the average dpp of all crafted spells with effects:
Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Winter Moon+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Loremaster.

(325/4)+(325/4)+(495/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(430/4)/6=

Average dpp of all crafted spells with effects=92 dpp
Loremaster is far beyond the curve for average damage of crafted spells with effects"
>> Just like any calculus calls, you need to have rules. Generating values, and not following the
>> rules is a violation and will result in flawed data

You still have not answered my question. What adjustment do you keep referring to and how is it mathematically calculated?

>> Because of the aftereffects in Death, and we have no standard yet for Calculating the
>> aftereffects standards. These are part of the adjustments that I was referring too.

What do you mean, death has a number of single target spells with no effect.

>> Hence the crux of my argument, they change the dpp and you do not compensate for the way
>> they change the dpp. So, as stated before, if one school have five dot, one has one dot and one
>> AOT, and one only has aftereffects, you don't seem to care, you just average them all in together.
>> How do you justify doing this, how do you justify your results, how can you even consider them
>> valid to any degree. So the data below is useless.....

Of course I don't compensate for it, the spells are already compensated for their aftereffects with a drop in dpp. This is the very point of the argument. Loremaster makes no compensation for gaining 2 aftereffects; in fact it actually gains dpp in comparison to all other balance damage spells with no consequence.

My calculation is far from meaningless. It compares spells from a relevant data set(Single target crafted spells with effects) to Loremaster(Single target crafted spell with effects).

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Eric stated:
"Now lets take the average dpp of all crafted spells with effects:
Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Winter Moon+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Loremaster.
(325/4)+(325/4)+(495/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(430/4)/6=
Average dpp of all crafted spells with effects=92 dpp

Keeper of the Flaem = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Krampus = also has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Winter Moom = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Luminous Weaver = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
Savage Paw = has one aftereffect, what dpp is that aftereffect worth.
LoreMaster = Two reduced aftereffects, what dpp are those worth.

Along with that, what dpp is an AOE spell worth, it can be calculated.
Along with that, what dpp is an DOT spell worth, it can be calculated.
You get my point, without me going on and on....

So, you have added in Myth, Fire, Ice, Life, and two Balance spells.
Where is Storm? Where is Deer Knight/Death? What is this, again, skewed data.

These are the reason that I keep disagreeing with 92 dpp, as I calculate it much
higher.

This is my point, if you don't adjust for the aftereffects, you cannot do a fair
comparison. Whether it be Non Crafted or Crafted, the spells must be put on an
even level. To do this, we must agree on rules, and then calculate the differences
between the aftereffects. The Calculations are simple, it's agreeing to the rules
and the percentages that we need to complete before we can move forward.
This is not skewed data. This is data comparing spells from a relevant data set. Much as your data with storm's single target no effect spells was mostly valid(all it was missing was storm owl). You rightfully excluded leviathan, storm lord, sirens because those spells did not fit into that data set. As to the crafted spells comparison with loremaster: Catalan was excluded because it is not in the data set(it has no effect), similarly with deer knight(it is not a single target spell). I still have no idea what "adjustment" you are referring to, how it is mathematically calculated and how "adjusting" the spells make your data relevant.

>>>These are the reason that I keep disagreeing with 92 dpp, as I calculate it much
higher.

Then show me those calculations please. I have asked for your math and you have yet to provide it.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 20, 2014 wrote:
seethe42,
I honestly am not sure if your just joking, or just trying to provoke
me in these last two postings.

He's comparing like Crafted spells from a few of the schools, leaving out
the crafted spells that have the hardest hits. I think you have missed
that very, very important and key point.

What I am saying is that all aftereffects have to be rated, and see how
they affect the dpp. You have to compare spells with no aftereffect and
keep them at the same pip level. To me, it's confusing, that you missed
each and every key point that I brought up. Actually what you have stated,
has nothing to do, with what I stated. I feel that you have not read all
of the postings, and are missing key informaiton I have posted.

I believe you also missed my post on the base values of the wizard, gear
and spells that are needed for the overall rating asessment. I feel that
you have drawn these conclusions, without reading and understanding all of
the posts.

No where do I see anything that states Equal in Ability, can you show me
where Wizard101 states this?
By using the exact definitions of the word, I stated exactly what they
derive. Why do you think KI used the term Balance for a Balance wizard?
Why the Balance Scales, why three spirit and three Elemental wizards, etc?

Since PvPKing and Eric have brought up very useful and key information, I
would like to use that to see where Balance really lies in the mix.
To do that, I would like to do several things, and have PvPKing and Eric,
correct flaws that I state. I feel by generating a set of rules, and then
calculating a value for each spell, crafted spell, level gear, and the
base of the Wizard, you can generate numeric values. These values can then
do a direct "Level" comparison. This is the only logical way to see if
LoreMaster is really overpowered to any degree.

Why do we need to do this, and why do we need to keep it mathematical?
Because, we can argue all day, and say, "Well the Crafted Myth spells and
Deer Knight are both OverPowered". We can also say, "Well, Insane bolt
and Savage Paw are Overpowered". We can go on and on, saying that each
school or each spell is overpowered. If you don't generate standards to
go by, then you have no reference to do a real comparison.

Finally, I understand you enjoy attacking me, but if you would be so
kind as not to make them personal. Attacking my logic by directly
attacking me is just not needed on the posts. Lets keep it on the
material or idea, and keep away from petty personal attacks.
If you find that you are getting so upset that you are unable to control
your input, then please don't post a reply to me.

If you have any trouble understanding this part of my post, please reread
Roland SilverHeart's posting, "PvP within the Message Boards".
>>>>He's comparing like Crafted spells from a few of the schools, leaving out
the crafted spells that have the hardest hits. I think you have missed
that very, very important and key point.

That is correct: I am comparing the spells that are similar to Loremaster to Loremaster itself. The hardest hitting spells happen to be excluded because they have no aftereffects so they are not a valid comparison to loremaster which is a spell with aftereffects.

>>>What I am saying is that all aftereffects have to be rated, and see how
they affect the dpp.

Er, why and how? It is obvious how the aftereffects affect the dpp...they lower it. In the case of loremaster they increase it...hence the whole overpowered argument.

>>>This is the only logical way to see if
LoreMaster is really overpowered to any degree.

Or we can compare it to balance damage dpp, or we can compare it to similar crafted spells.

>>>If you don't generate standards to
go by, then you have no reference to do a real comparison.

The standards are already generated. The very same standards and rules that I have been alluding to this entire thread that you spent several pages claiming I had "invented". Ironically you yourself went and generated a list with some of the very same standards that you had adamantly denied several pages ago.

>>>Finally, I understand you enjoy attacking me, but if you would be so
kind as not to make them personal. Attacking my logic by directly
attacking me is just not needed on the posts. Lets keep it on the
material or idea, and keep away from petty personal attacks.

None of seethe42's posts were personal attacks, One expressed disbelief that you were making leaps of logic that were unsupported by the evidence presented and the other pointed out that equality is not the same as average.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1558
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 21, 2014 wrote:
That is the very point they are not converted on the field and the bubbles demonstrate this perfectly. We know that the new bubbles impart their effect before the base critical rating is calculated(since they enhance the critical rating). We also know that the critical rating applies to the balance spell hydra. Now if the bubbles effects are imparted at that segment and balances famage was converted afterwards as you claim then hydra would pick up the pierce from counterforce. It does not which is a clear indication that no on field conversion is made. What we can see from hydra, chimera and spectral blast is that non-balance damage balance spells tend to have a higher dpp than balance damage spells. As I keep mentioning to you Loremaster is a balance damage spell that is far above the dpp of other balance damage spells. Im not sure how that makes hydra weaker than other converted spells.
Like I said before, on shield conversion it made for Hydra, not just at the same point as a converted spell. If you had a spell that was converted by a Prism before its original schools traps were consumed and then the same spell is casted but doesn't consume its original school traps because it gets converted too early, would you say that the spell is different and follows a different set of rules? No, not really. The only difference is that one time, the spell consumed the traps and the other time it didn't. The same can be said about Hydra and some other spell being converted. Hydra is originally Balance, at first boosted by Balance damage boost and critical rating, but is converted before anything else applies to it (bubbles aren't the first thing taken into account, the armor pierce is taken into account directly after blades, but you see that little freeze/lag before your wizard casts a spell with a critical bubble because it takes only the critical into account before anything else. Hydra is a built-in converted spell, which is the way I see it.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1558
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 21, 2014 wrote:
The nature of Hydra/Chimera and Spectral Blast are different. Spectral Blast deals one of three possible elemental school damages and imitates there dpp. Hydra/Chimera deal 3 different schools type of damage all at once and does not imitate he associated school's dpp.
As I said many times before, which you have ignored because you clearly can't prove, (neither can I), if your rules are correct about "if a school deals another school's damage with its own school spell, it should follow the other school's dpp," then why does Hydra go around those said rules? Why doesn't the Storm head hit the most, then the Fire hitting second most, and Ice hitting the least? Last I checked, Ice's dpp wasn't the same as Storm's.

If you keep up making up more rules of "the nature of this spell" and then keep adding to it, it's clear that you're not sure if the rules are correct either. I'm not saying this to test your knowledge, a lot of it is probably right, but there are some vital things other schools don't have that Balance needs. Like all the other schools, Balance doesn't have a direct heal. Availing Hands just doesn't count anymore, it's a HoT, most people without Morganthe amulets or the Amulet of Divine Influence resort to the Horizon of Underworld Charm. What does that do? Steals a HoT. Okay, so against Ice and anybody with that gear Availing Hands is already less than useless, Balance also has horrible blades for boosting Balance damage spells (25% and 20% compared to 40% and 35% from blades and bubbles), does not have a 2 pip bubble to save themselves, only has 50% shields if not training another school (just enough to manage a Shrike, other schools have that and 20% left on their shield plus their resist), the worst accuracy gear in the game unless they lose power pip chance, which makes them easy targets if they do, and sacrifices probably the most stats to gain something. Its best aftereffect spells are just sad. For King Artorius, Balance deals the least damage of all schools to put 2 sure aftereffects, and the so called "overpowered" aftereffect spells Balance has are Mana Burn and Supernova, which are dramatically situational. Power Nova sacrifices being the weakest 7 pip AoE with an aftereffect (other than Scarecrow which heals you back), and leaving Sabertooth to be completely useless against 4 schools in Wizard101. Tell me again, is Balance really as strong as the other schools without Loremaster? If you take the spell away, where does that leave Balance? The bottom?

To me, without Loremaster, PvP is pretty hard for Balance. The Black Mantle aftereffect from it is unreliable and doesn't stick on your opponent, and on average almost never makes my opponent fizzle. The Weakness is nerfed as I already said, and Balance's damage has been dipping below Ice's with every new spell. It needed a 4 pip spell that did something.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 21, 2014 wrote:
Like I said before, on shield conversion it made for Hydra, not just at the same point as a converted spell. If you had a spell that was converted by a Prism before its original schools traps were consumed and then the same spell is casted but doesn't consume its original school traps because it gets converted too early, would you say that the spell is different and follows a different set of rules? No, not really. The only difference is that one time, the spell consumed the traps and the other time it didn't. The same can be said about Hydra and some other spell being converted. Hydra is originally Balance, at first boosted by Balance damage boost and critical rating, but is converted before anything else applies to it (bubbles aren't the first thing taken into account, the armor pierce is taken into account directly after blades, but you see that little freeze/lag before your wizard casts a spell with a critical bubble because it takes only the critical into account before anything else. Hydra is a built-in converted spell, which is the way I see it.
That is exactly the point. Hydra/Chimera/Spectral Blast act as "pre-converted" spells, they go through no on field conversion at all. They are in effect balance spells with different school damage. The new bubbles further illustrate this as the (pause) we notice is applied before the spell is even cast. This is why I linked you to my spell mechanics thread which explained the different "components" of spells and how they are affected on field.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 21, 2014 wrote:
As I said many times before, which you have ignored because you clearly can't prove, (neither can I), if your rules are correct about "if a school deals another school's damage with its own school spell, it should follow the other school's dpp," then why does Hydra go around those said rules? Why doesn't the Storm head hit the most, then the Fire hitting second most, and Ice hitting the least? Last I checked, Ice's dpp wasn't the same as Storm's.

If you keep up making up more rules of "the nature of this spell" and then keep adding to it, it's clear that you're not sure if the rules are correct either. I'm not saying this to test your knowledge, a lot of it is probably right, but there are some vital things other schools don't have that Balance needs. Like all the other schools, Balance doesn't have a direct heal. Availing Hands just doesn't count anymore, it's a HoT, most people without Morganthe amulets or the Amulet of Divine Influence resort to the Horizon of Underworld Charm. What does that do? Steals a HoT. Okay, so against Ice and anybody with that gear Availing Hands is already less than useless, Balance also has horrible blades for boosting Balance damage spells (25% and 20% compared to 40% and 35% from blades and bubbles), does not have a 2 pip bubble to save themselves, only has 50% shields if not training another school (just enough to manage a Shrike, other schools have that and 20% left on their shield plus their resist), the worst accuracy gear in the game unless they lose power pip chance, which makes them easy targets if they do, and sacrifices probably the most stats to gain something. Its best aftereffect spells are just sad. For King Artorius, Balance deals the least damage of all schools to put 2 sure aftereffects, and the so called "overpowered" aftereffect spells Balance has are Mana Burn and Supernova, which are dramatically situational. Power Nova sacrifices being the weakest 7 pip AoE with an aftereffect (other than Scarecrow which heals you back), and leaving Sabertooth to be completely useless against 4 schools in Wizard101. Tell me again, is Balance really as strong as the other schools without Loremaster? If you take the spell away, where does that leave Balance? The bottom?

To me, without Loremaster, PvP is pretty hard for Balance. The Black Mantle aftereffect from it is unreliable and doesn't stick on your opponent, and on average almost never makes my opponent fizzle. The Weakness is nerfed as I already said, and Balance's damage has been dipping below Ice's with every new spell. It needed a 4 pip spell that did something.
I cannot explain why hydra and chimera act differently than spectral blast nor do I attempt to. I can only explain that they do act differently. Hydra and Chimera as I have pointed out many, many times do not follow the dpp of the associated schools. Spectral Blast on the other hand does.

Every school has weaknesses and tools that other schools's lack, balance is not unique in this aspect. Availing Hands is an incredibly useful spell against anyone without Snow Drift and even against those who possess the amulet as it is 2 cards out of 64+. Balance does have the weakest blades because they also have the weakest defense against said balance damage. Balance is one of 2 schools that can naturally defend against every other school for 0 pips. KH bought balance some of the best accuracy gear in the game with one piece bumping balance to perfect accuracy on it's own, Mana Burn and Supernova are far from sad, denying wizards 2 key resources and forcing them to play a very different type of game. No one is advocating taking Loremaster away but even without Loremaster balance was still the top school in 1v1 PvP. Once again no one is advocating removing Loremaster, simply rebalancing it.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4118
PvP King on Oct 21, 2014 wrote:
As I said many times before, which you have ignored because you clearly can't prove, (neither can I), if your rules are correct about "if a school deals another school's damage with its own school spell, it should follow the other school's dpp," then why does Hydra go around those said rules? Why doesn't the Storm head hit the most, then the Fire hitting second most, and Ice hitting the least? Last I checked, Ice's dpp wasn't the same as Storm's.

If you keep up making up more rules of "the nature of this spell" and then keep adding to it, it's clear that you're not sure if the rules are correct either. I'm not saying this to test your knowledge, a lot of it is probably right, but there are some vital things other schools don't have that Balance needs. Like all the other schools, Balance doesn't have a direct heal. Availing Hands just doesn't count anymore, it's a HoT, most people without Morganthe amulets or the Amulet of Divine Influence resort to the Horizon of Underworld Charm. What does that do? Steals a HoT. Okay, so against Ice and anybody with that gear Availing Hands is already less than useless, Balance also has horrible blades for boosting Balance damage spells (25% and 20% compared to 40% and 35% from blades and bubbles), does not have a 2 pip bubble to save themselves, only has 50% shields if not training another school (just enough to manage a Shrike, other schools have that and 20% left on their shield plus their resist), the worst accuracy gear in the game unless they lose power pip chance, which makes them easy targets if they do, and sacrifices probably the most stats to gain something. Its best aftereffect spells are just sad. For King Artorius, Balance deals the least damage of all schools to put 2 sure aftereffects, and the so called "overpowered" aftereffect spells Balance has are Mana Burn and Supernova, which are dramatically situational. Power Nova sacrifices being the weakest 7 pip AoE with an aftereffect (other than Scarecrow which heals you back), and leaving Sabertooth to be completely useless against 4 schools in Wizard101. Tell me again, is Balance really as strong as the other schools without Loremaster? If you take the spell away, where does that leave Balance? The bottom?

To me, without Loremaster, PvP is pretty hard for Balance. The Black Mantle aftereffect from it is unreliable and doesn't stick on your opponent, and on average almost never makes my opponent fizzle. The Weakness is nerfed as I already said, and Balance's damage has been dipping below Ice's with every new spell. It needed a 4 pip spell that did something.
As I said many times before, which you have ignored because you clearly can't prove, (neither can I), if your rules are correct about "if a school deals another school's damage with its own school spell, it should follow the other school's dpp," then why does Hydra go around those said rules? Why doesn't the Storm head hit the most, then the Fire hitting second most, and Ice hitting the least? Last I checked, Ice's dpp wasn't the same as Storm's.

This has repeatedly been answered. Spectral Blast is a single attack that uses another random school damage. Hydra and Chimera are triple attacks, they are completely different and cannot be compared directly. They use the lower Balance DPP as an offset to make them NOT overpowered because the extra ability of being three attacks in one.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1558
seethe42 on Oct 23, 2014 wrote:
As I said many times before, which you have ignored because you clearly can't prove, (neither can I), if your rules are correct about "if a school deals another school's damage with its own school spell, it should follow the other school's dpp," then why does Hydra go around those said rules? Why doesn't the Storm head hit the most, then the Fire hitting second most, and Ice hitting the least? Last I checked, Ice's dpp wasn't the same as Storm's.

This has repeatedly been answered. Spectral Blast is a single attack that uses another random school damage. Hydra and Chimera are triple attacks, they are completely different and cannot be compared directly. They use the lower Balance DPP as an offset to make them NOT overpowered because the extra ability of being three attacks in one.
I have repeatedly answered why that point isn't true. Look in the last several pages to see what I said about that, because Orthrus and Minotaur aren't punished for hitting multiple times, and DoT's are increased in damage for hitting more than once.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1558
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 23, 2014 wrote:
I cannot explain why hydra and chimera act differently than spectral blast nor do I attempt to. I can only explain that they do act differently. Hydra and Chimera as I have pointed out many, many times do not follow the dpp of the associated schools. Spectral Blast on the other hand does.

Every school has weaknesses and tools that other schools's lack, balance is not unique in this aspect. Availing Hands is an incredibly useful spell against anyone without Snow Drift and even against those who possess the amulet as it is 2 cards out of 64+. Balance does have the weakest blades because they also have the weakest defense against said balance damage. Balance is one of 2 schools that can naturally defend against every other school for 0 pips. KH bought balance some of the best accuracy gear in the game with one piece bumping balance to perfect accuracy on it's own, Mana Burn and Supernova are far from sad, denying wizards 2 key resources and forcing them to play a very different type of game. No one is advocating taking Loremaster away but even without Loremaster balance was still the top school in 1v1 PvP. Once again no one is advocating removing Loremaster, simply rebalancing it.
"Hydra and Chimers as I have pointed out many, many times do not follow the dpp of the associated schools. Spectral Blast on the other hand does." Which has been my whole point ever since I pointed out Spectral Blast. Like Loremaster, Spectral Blast is a "rule breaker" for a balance spell. That clearly shows, again, that Balance can have up to the same dpp as Storm (also proven when comparing Judgement to Tempest, then comparing Judgement to Storm Hound and finding that if Storm were to have a single target x pip attack, by adding Storm Hound's dpp and Tempest's dpp and dividing by two, its damage would most likely be 105 damage per pip, barely above Judgement's dpp). If Balance can have a roughly close dpp to Storm, then Loremaster again is justified. Kraken does at most 48 more dpp than Loremaster, still meaning that Loremaster isn't overpowered.

Want another way to see if spells are overpowered or not? Compare the average health gain of each school per level. Balance = 26.6, Storm = 16.2, Ice = 30.1, Fire = 21.8, Death is 24.4, Life is 27.1, Myth is 21.7. Now compare the health gain difference to the dpp difference. Locust Swarm's max dpp is 101 dpp, Storm Shark's max is 145 dpp. Locust Swarm does 41 dpp less than Storm Shark, while their health difference is only about 10 per level up. Storm quickly catches up to Balance's health-damage difference ratio, and Balance fell behind a bunch of the other schools in that sense. Loremaster helped Balance's dpp difference become smaller, but is still a distance weaker than Kraken because of the added aftereffects.

"Every school has weakness and tools that the other schools lack, balance is not unique in this aspect." Balance is extremely unique in the aspect that their minion has the lowest health, their blades have the lowest percentage, their shields have the lowest percentage, and they can't stack blades effectively, nor change a damage bubble effectively without a mastery amulet, etc. How is Balance overpowered with the weakest of everything again? Is pip control or bubble control, or even a raised dpp making it overpowered with the several things it already falls behind? Balance doesn't have 100% critical with 100% damage boost following it with 3 pieces of gear like Storm, a nearly undefeatable strategy like Death, the ability to just heal all day like Life (many Life wizards use builds with massive heal boosts and are one of the top ranks on the Leaderboard), nor sit back and blade stack like Ice, or the ability to remove all shields like Myth, or the ability to use DoT's like Fire. Balance is tied up with the other schools in the amount of tools it has now, but those tools aren't so overwhelming that they make Balance unbeatable like some other strategies out there. In fact, Balance doesn't have any strategy today that's unbeatable from second.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4118
PvP King on Oct 23, 2014 wrote:
I have repeatedly answered why that point isn't true. Look in the last several pages to see what I said about that, because Orthrus and Minotaur aren't punished for hitting multiple times, and DoT's are increased in damage for hitting more than once.
Neither of those spells have three attacks of three different schools. They aren't even remotely comparable.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1558
seethe42 on Oct 24, 2014 wrote:
Neither of those spells have three attacks of three different schools. They aren't even remotely comparable.
Orthrus and Minotaur hit twice, if you haven't noticed. They don't get reduced in damage or have any consequence for hitting twice, if you haven't noticed either. Hydra and Chimera however, hit multiple times like Orthrus and Minotaur, and aren't supposed to have consequenced dpp's according to Minotaur and Orthrus. They aren't even remotely incomparable.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 23, 2014 wrote:
"Hydra and Chimers as I have pointed out many, many times do not follow the dpp of the associated schools. Spectral Blast on the other hand does." Which has been my whole point ever since I pointed out Spectral Blast. Like Loremaster, Spectral Blast is a "rule breaker" for a balance spell. That clearly shows, again, that Balance can have up to the same dpp as Storm (also proven when comparing Judgement to Tempest, then comparing Judgement to Storm Hound and finding that if Storm were to have a single target x pip attack, by adding Storm Hound's dpp and Tempest's dpp and dividing by two, its damage would most likely be 105 damage per pip, barely above Judgement's dpp). If Balance can have a roughly close dpp to Storm, then Loremaster again is justified. Kraken does at most 48 more dpp than Loremaster, still meaning that Loremaster isn't overpowered.

Want another way to see if spells are overpowered or not? Compare the average health gain of each school per level. Balance = 26.6, Storm = 16.2, Ice = 30.1, Fire = 21.8, Death is 24.4, Life is 27.1, Myth is 21.7. Now compare the health gain difference to the dpp difference. Locust Swarm's max dpp is 101 dpp, Storm Shark's max is 145 dpp. Locust Swarm does 41 dpp less than Storm Shark, while their health difference is only about 10 per level up. Storm quickly catches up to Balance's health-damage difference ratio, and Balance fell behind a bunch of the other schools in that sense. Loremaster helped Balance's dpp difference become smaller, but is still a distance weaker than Kraken because of the added aftereffects.

"Every school has weakness and tools that the other schools lack, balance is not unique in this aspect." Balance is extremely unique in the aspect that their minion has the lowest health, their blades have the lowest percentage, their shields have the lowest percentage, and they can't stack blades effectively, nor change a damage bubble effectively without a mastery amulet, etc. How is Balance overpowered with the weakest of everything again? Is pip control or bubble control, or even a raised dpp making it overpowered with the several things it already falls behind? Balance doesn't have 100% critical with 100% damage boost following it with 3 pieces of gear like Storm, a nearly undefeatable strategy like Death, the ability to just heal all day like Life (many Life wizards use builds with massive heal boosts and are one of the top ranks on the Leaderboard), nor sit back and blade stack like Ice, or the ability to remove all shields like Myth, or the ability to use DoT's like Fire. Balance is tied up with the other schools in the amount of tools it has now, but those tools aren't so overwhelming that they make Balance unbeatable like some other strategies out there. In fact, Balance doesn't have any strategy today that's unbeatable from second.
Spectral Blast is an exception to a balance spell...that deals elemental damage. It pays a consequence for being an exception-it has variable damage and the damage becomes shieldable with specific shields. Loremaster however is balance damage, pays no consequential effect and has 2 added effects. Comparing Judgement to tempest? Tempest is an x pip aoe, judgement is a single target x pip. Even judgement pays for its high end balance damage by completely draining the user of all his/her pips. Loremaster deals more than judgement and adds 2 effects. No balance damage spell has close to storm dpp with no consequence.

Lol the health argument is one of the worse arguments you could bring up. Assuming your numbers are correct, you will realize that health gains continue to accelerate as you level up. By the time both schools acquire their third rank spells(lvl 10) balance's base health is a full 195 above storm's. Combine this with base accuracy and the health from gear and you can see the problem. Furthermore health is a cost free attribute that is present from the start of the battle. In order to achieve higher dpp, storm has to cast higher ranked spells which cost more of an in battle. resource: pips.

Minion Lowest Health- Nope myth's is. Plus you can summon another school's minions and the helpful mander is one of the most versatile minions.

Lowest Percent Blades- Also the only universal buffs without consequence.

Lowest Percent Shield- Also the only one of 2 schools that can shield against every other school naturally.

Considering that pips control your spells and auras are the cheapest and most effective ways to modify your own stats that is a huge amount of control.

No school has any unbeatable strategy, this hs nothing to do with whether loremaster is overpowered.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4118
PvP King on Oct 24, 2014 wrote:
Orthrus and Minotaur hit twice, if you haven't noticed. They don't get reduced in damage or have any consequence for hitting twice, if you haven't noticed either. Hydra and Chimera however, hit multiple times like Orthrus and Minotaur, and aren't supposed to have consequenced dpp's according to Minotaur and Orthrus. They aren't even remotely incomparable.
They do NOT hit with THREE DIFFERENT schools. Like I said.