Anyway, I see the whole Balance being overpowered, pretty much as a popular belief (or fairy tale), that has been crafted for enjoyable reading for those who would believe it.
Much like the popular myth that balance is weak because it has smaller universal blades and can't wand away weakness that is perpetuated by so many Balance wizards who just can't learn how to play their school effectively.
Seethe42,
I have not stated in any way that Balance is weak, what I did state is that Balance has a series of weakness, that others do not have. Hence the reason that I feel it needs LoreMaster, to stay as an upper level school.
Once we have Balance or Bladestorm up, we cannot wand away weakness without losing our blades. That is a fact, not a myth, and it also has the Weakest blades, again that is fact. To add to that, I have clearly stated it's a top level school, (imo at 85 up).
Where apparently we disagree, is that I am just saying that it's not overpowered. Where Loremaster is a good spell, I feel that it is very much needed by Balance. Plus, I see many schools adding it to their spells, and using it very effectively. So, it's not just a boost for Balance, it's a boost for other schools also.
I know this was answered, but I wanted to add one item. Death has Posion. Fire has Link, Power Link, etc. Myth has to many options to list. Ice has Frostbite. Even Life has a damage over time spell now.....
The only two that do not, Balance and Storm. Where storm could even use Storm elf if it wanted, but doesn't really need it. yes, Balance is the odd man out, with medium damage hits and no DOT. So, for most schools, they can handle shields effectively, Balance cannot.
Actually storm does have a DoT aside from storm elf. Storm hound. It's essentially the same as heck hound but does more damage per pip. This spell however is only available in item and TC so it cant be enchanted. It works out to be about the same damage as heck hound.
I garden this TC and always have it in my side deck. Its my secret weapon in PvP. I blade up and my opponent thinks they are safe behind a shield. Because I am storm my opponent was not expecting any Dot's and has discarded their triages. Follow storm hound up with another or a storm elf and any shields your opponent casts will be absorbed by the lesser and if they do manage to find another triage then they can only remove the lesser.
I understand that you are looking at a larger quantity of numbers on the leaderboards, but when you have a large group of one wizard that is in the top 25, that says something, to me anyway. Those incredibly bad stats gave that storm wizard 74 wins and only 8 loses. Far better than me at that number of 82 wins/loses (how about you)?
Yes, Supernova is an Advantage and a disadvantage at the same time. Once you hit warlord, the globals start showing up, and Balance does not have a decent 2 pip global. So you lose the pip war over Globals. Another reason why Balance so needed a spell like LoreMaster.
On ManaBurn, each players Maximum potential is based on their skill level and how their deck is set. Yes, it can at times reduce the big hits, but really how many players just wait, knowing they have the advantage because they are set for Balance? All players just pack the enhancements on the smaller hits and reshuffle, as fast as they can. I see where it inhibits very few players at ranks above private or so.
On the final item, stacking, as you know most just stack a zero pips blade and an enchanted zero pip blade. For Ice, that a plus 90+ before the hit. If I weakness of any type, it’s a delay, nothing more. When they can keep their blades, and I can’t, it's a disadvantage. If I bad Juju, I take a bigger self hit when I have blades up, I also see that as a disadvantage.
Yes, Balance may have higher presents on the Boards, but that is because there are so many of them. Balance has exploded in the last two worlds. Where I seldom saw a Balance in the worlds before, now I see plenty of them all over. Hence the huge presents on the boards, but it’s not because they are over-powered. Not to mention the number of players that are using Global Damage stats and using LoreMaster also. I have seen this done very effectively by one on the Duelest101 team.
Anyway, I see the whole Balance being overpowered, pretty much as a popular belief (or fairy tale), that has been crafted for enjoyable reading for those who would believe it.
When you constrain already limited data without taking into account any mitigating factors or likely explanations then of course you will come to some interesting conclusions. What you're pretty much telling me is to ignore the majority of the data which doesn't support your point and focus on the extreme outliers that are likely present due to team mechanics or glitching.
If indeed his record is like that then I expect he simply came from team play and tried his set in 1v1 or even more likely he gained his rank at a lower level and then leveled up to max.Those stats are incredibly bad and will not net consistent wins as anyone who has dueled at the warlord+ lvl can illustrate. As for my win-loss ratio it currently stands at 725w-677L.
Supernova isn't an advantage and a disadvantage it is purely an advantage, By having it in your deck you ensure that either 1)Your opponent wont be able to modify stats with auras(a huge advantage) or 2)Your opponent will get to modify his stats for 1 round at the cost of 1000-2000 points of health. I'm not sure what globals have to do with Loremaster. By that logic Ice doesn't have a reliable in school heal: Clearly this means they need a loremaster like spell right? Speaking of reshuffle, which school is best equipped to both reshuffle faster and shut down reshuffle the easiest? Oh right that would be balance.
Lets not equivocate, we both know by max potential I meant the full utilization of their pips. Mana Burn prevents that. Mana Burn naturally inhibits players because it forces them to play a certain way that doe not maximize their potential.
When did weaknesses and shielding turn into just a delay? Those are defensive moves that work equally as well on any attack.
I wonder where you are getting your data from. How do you know there is an expansion of balance wizards in general? Now of course assuming you are correct what do you think is causing the large influx of balance players into the arena. Did people all around the world all of a sudden independently decide to start playing balance or did they decide to after seeing that i is the dominant school at max lvl PvP? Does the fact that many schools are opting to use universal stats simply to take advantage of Loremaster not indicate anything about the relative power of that spell to you?
A popular crafted belief? Crafted by who and for what reason? Did arena players just randomly choose balance? Of course not, people believe balance to be the top 1v1 max lvl PvP school because of their experiences in the arena. Take any wizard and see which school is the most successful at captain and beyond.
I know this was answered, but I wanted to add one item. Death has Posion. Fire has Link, Power Link, etc. Myth has to many options to list. Ice has Frostbite. Even Life has a damage over time spell now.....
The only two that do not, Balance and Storm. Where storm could even use Storm elf if it wanted, but doesn't really need it. yes, Balance is the odd man out, with medium damage hits and no DOT. So, for most schools, they can handle shields effectively, Balance cannot.
No DoT? The universal nature of balance's shield means that ANY DoT can be used by balance to clear shields. How much more effective does it need to be?
I have no wish to cut meaningless fine hairs in this discussion, my statements stand as is, as I see them.
Different base knowledge, experience, and perception will alway give a different point of view. To discuss that point of view is the point, and keeping an open mind. When a conversatiion no longer is making any progress, it is time to end that conversation.
I have no wish to argue for the sake of aurguing, I will leave that to others.
I have not stated in any way that Balance is weak, what I did state is that Balance has a series of weakness, that others do not have. Hence the reason that I feel it needs LoreMaster, to stay as an upper level school.
Once we have Balance or Bladestorm up, we cannot wand away weakness without losing our blades. That is a fact, not a myth, and it also has the Weakest blades, again that is fact. To add to that, I have clearly stated it's a top level school, (imo at 85 up).
Where apparently we disagree, is that I am just saying that it's not overpowered. Where Loremaster is a good spell, I feel that it is very much needed by Balance. Plus, I see many schools adding it to their spells, and using it very effectively. So, it's not just a boost for Balance, it's a boost for other schools also.
We can't wand away weakness, just like every other school at high level carrying a Hades staff. Carry cleanse charm like every other school does. We have the weakest blades because there's no Balance shields, that's a strength not a weakness. Those are the facts.
Supernova is a guarenteed 1000 damage for 2 pips and destroying the aura. Balance is the only school who has such a spell, and if it criticals, it's closer to 2000. It is a major advantage for balance, which is why it is in my opinion the best pvp school. Adding loremaster was over the top. It's the best 4 pip spell with good damage and great affects. especially for 1v1, loremaster is a little over the top.
No DoT? The universal nature of balance's shield means that ANY DoT can be used by balance to clear shields. How much more effective does it need to be?
Let's mirror your argument, Eric. The universal nature of Balance's blades means that ANY DoT can be used by Balance and takes off their Balance blades. How much more useless do other school DoT's need to be?
Anyway, I see the whole Balance being overpowered, pretty much as a popular belief (or fairy tale), that has been crafted for enjoyable reading for those who would believe it.
Much like the popular myth that balance is weak because it has smaller universal blades and can't wand away weakness that is perpetuated by so many Balance wizards who just can't learn how to play their school effectively.
Make a Balance wizard, fight a Jade, and see how your inability to stack blades helps you out.
Make a Balance wizard, fight a Jade, and see how your inability to stack blades helps you out.
You keep saying that I can't stack blades, yet my Balance wizard routinely stacks them. I don't know where you got the notion that we can't stack blades.
You keep saying that I can't stack blades, yet my Balance wizard routinely stacks them. I don't know where you got the notion that we can't stack blades.
Okay, if you were to fight me and I used a Tower Shield, what would your reaction be with those blades? How about if I used a Tower Shield from my wand? Or if I used Volcanic Shield? Dream Shield sound nice to you? How about Weakness and Loremaster, does that make bladestacking effective for you?
You keep saying that I can't stack blades, yet my Balance wizard routinely stacks them. I don't know where you got the notion that we can't stack blades.
seethe42,
Not sure if you being funny or sarcastic, or exactly what..... maybe I don't get what your trying to say.
Stack four blades and then have a bad Juju put on you..... which a Death Jade will do over and over....
Stack four blades and have a efreet drop a -90 weakness on your head.
Stack one, two, three or four blades and have a -40 dropped on you.
Then wand away your weakness, and keep your blades.
Every school can do that, but Balance, hence the point I stated earlier.
While the blade stacking thing could be true, that does not change the fact that balance has advantages that other schools so not have in pvp , making them the best school right now
I have no wish to cut meaningless fine hairs in this discussion, my statements stand as is, as I see them.
Different base knowledge, experience, and perception will alway give a different point of view. To discuss that point of view is the point, and keeping an open mind. When a conversatiion no longer is making any progress, it is time to end that conversation.
I have no wish to argue for the sake of aurguing, I will leave that to others.
Quite a difference in opinion indeed. Presenting all points of view of the perceived situation is ideal and hence my arguments. I'll leave it up to the readers to decide which of our points have more merit.
While the blade stacking thing could be true, that does not change the fact that balance has advantages that other schools so not have in pvp , making them the best school right now
The pip + spell control in theory works for all schools if you haven't noticed. Against a Storm wizard, you always want to make sure you have enough pips to heal. When a Fire wizard has 8 pips you don't attack until they use those pips (because of Efreet), when a Myth wizard has 6/7 pips you'd normally use a Stun Block or Conviction that turn (to avoid Medusa), when a Life wizard has 9 pips you use a Weakness, etc. The spell control advantage isn't to Balance alone, and all those spells I mentioned as examples weren't at a much higher pip cost than Mana Burn.
Quite a difference in opinion indeed. Presenting all points of view of the perceived situation is ideal and hence my arguments. I'll leave it up to the readers to decide which of our points have more merit.
I'm afraid that you have me all wrong Eric, I do not have an overdevelopped sense of myself. I am not here to do verbal battle to prove that I am right and that you are wrong. I am here to learn or if need be, to point out errors that I feel have developed by postings or by articles that I feel are incorrect.
I am only here to help my fellow Wizard, nothing more.
While the blade stacking thing could be true, that does not change the fact that balance has advantages that other schools so not have in pvp , making them the best school right now
I think you have stated the entire key to this conversation, the advantages of Balance. The point is, Balance players certainly do not feel that they have any real advantage. In fact, I think at level 95 and above, the PvP 1v1 has an extremely level playing field.
I see Manaburn, Super Nova as nice spells that nothing that really give that huge of an advantage. Loremaster, does give Balance an advantage, but this spell is so overused by everyone, that the advantage is slight because of the advantages of over schools.
I still maintain that the number of Balance players has increased significantly in PvP, over the last two or three worlds. Where I could seldom go into a battle and see a Balance, I see them all the time now. People perceived that Manaburn, SuperNova and the death amulet gave them a huge advantage, and moved to bring up Balance wizards.
Now, as I just read in a post, many are finding out that Balance's advantages are on par (at level 95) with all the other wizards.
I have always felt that Gorman came up with an excellent strategy, and many have used that to climb the ladder to Balance warlord.
I'm afraid that you have me all wrong Eric, I do not have an overdevelopped sense of myself. I am not here to do verbal battle to prove that I am right and that you are wrong. I am here to learn or if need be, to point out errors that I feel have developed by postings or by articles that I feel are incorrect.
I am only here to help my fellow Wizard, nothing more.
Oh I agree, I don't think either of us are here simply to try to "win" a debate. We are both just disseminating information and formulating counterpoints which is the very best way to rigorously analyze and present a large amount of data. Our goals are the same even if our arguments are divergent.
Oh I agree, I don't think either of us are here simply to try to "win" a debate. We are both just disseminating information and formulating counterpoints which is the very best way to rigorously analyze and present a large amount of data. Our goals are the same even if our arguments are divergent.
I agree Eric,
But the problem remains that we have very little data to go on. We don't know the total number of each wizard. We don't know the total number of Wizards at each level. ... how many made it to warlord on a glitch. ... how many made it at a lower level, as you stated. ... how many made it at 1v1, etc, as you stated. We don't know a lot more, and I guess that is really the problem. We can't really state anything for sure, even how critical or critical block work. (I know the guesses are most likely accurate, but still they are not from KI and therefore, the code and real function are not known for sure). Without the real data, we are merely generating conjecture, and maybe that is the entire reason the arguments are so diversified. Hence my original statement, I don't see where this can go anywhere, and that is why I decided to drop my discussion/counterpoints.
To back up my claim that Balance is not the most OP, lets look at the leaderboards, and the top 25 players between level 90 and 100.
The top five Wizards are ... 1. Storm Level 95. 2. Death Level 90. 3. Ice Level 100 4. Storm Level 95 5. Fire Level 96, These are the best in the game, between Level 90 and 100.
Now, lets looks at the top 25 between level 90 to 100.
*Storm has 7 in the top 25, between the levels stated. Yes, the most OP in the game. Balance has 6. Myth has 4. *Fire has 2. *Ice has 2. Life has 2. *Death has 2.
* = A top five school, Clearly a wizard that can be played well in PVP. Yes, doing the top 100 would be better, but the top 25 proves the point just as well.
There you have it, Storm is clearly OP in PVP. Balance comes in second, but still impressive.
If you look on the leader boards other then, the top you will find there is more balances from 90-100 on it then storms in the 90-100. Also I'm pretty sure if those balances In the 2000 ranks got matches fast enough and did rank 24/7 then they could easily reach the top. I'm not saying balance is op but I don't think just because the school you chose wasn't balance and you keep hearing it's op that you have to whine about it. I'm sure if your school was balance you wouldn't have ever posted this, you would instead be agreeing it is op.
Who is level 95 and at the top of the Leader Boards? Last time I looked it was Storm, and there are a lot of Storm at the top of the Leader boards at Level 95. But, all I see is that Balance is OP at 95, not so at all.
Why does Balance have Super Nova, it's pretty simple. At the time it did not have a damage Global it could put up. It needed some way to cut down on the incomming damage. Anyway, this spell is just about worthless in PvP, as no one puts up an aura, as soon as they know your a Balance. That is at the beginning of the match, so it's not a big deal.
Mana Burn, three pips for three pips, and normally mininal damage. Yes, it's a good delay to allow you to search for cards, but it's can't be spammed. Plus, anyone that has played a few matches, knows to start spending your pips as soon as they see a Balance. From Second it's hard to use, from first, you may get a solid hit in, but the person second is most likely going to use their pips anyway. I see this spell as little more than a delay, and a way to delay or slow heals (most of the time). About it's only real advanage, it can stop the really big OHKO's or delay them.
Let's not even bring up the fact that most PVP players set for Balance, and have a ton of Balance Dispels in their deck..... or have increased resistance to Balance.
How does Balance stop blade stacking? How does Balance stop Shadow magic? How does it stop feint stacking, etc?
Oh, they can Mana burn your two pips, yep, great choice.
Oh they can Black Mantel, yep, but that is often just powered through, with the new High Accuracy gear. What's left, the only good choice they have is to stuff some Loremaster in the deck.....
Woot, the craftable spell Loremaster, the most awesome spell of all time, a one hit nuke destruction... well, maybe not in my eyes.
Does Balance have Efreet, or enfeeble, shift, medusa, Guardian spirit, plague, Power Link, Bad JuJu, Lum Weaver, Triage, Gnomes, a Stun, Dimensional shift, Snow dift, or Winter Moon. No.... it does not, it just has LoreMaster, if they can even get it as a drop or craft it.
All other schools have their way to deal with LoreMaster, and have spells that compare or are even better. So, please stop all the OP stuff. It's mainly just hyped up "Balance has a good spell that's comparable to mine, and that ain't right..... ".
Anyone got a reasonable reply?
Efreet is not easy to spam like lore. Triage can be used by anyone since there are tc versions so balance can have that spell like all other schools. Lum weaver us weaker then lore also just gives one neg effect. Dimensional shift I mean really you that desperate to try and prove how much spells could be better then lore, I didn't even know that sole existed till my friend showed me it for fun he even said it's completely useless. Plaque don't think anyone uses it in 1v1 and again tc Balance like you said don't got shift or enfeebled but um balance also don't have dots so shift is useless for the. And most balances do t stack blades making enfeebled useless. If your talking about how enfeebled is so could for shutting down blade stacks, just know spamming lore with a million weakness has the same effect. Also tc enfeebles can be farmed so balance as well as all schools can have this spell.
You ask how balance stops shadow um lore spam weakness, mana burn. You ask how they stop feint well that question can be given to all schools smarts and all schools can easily reply back with the same answer one being tower. You ask how balance stops stacking again weakness , lore, mana burn , weakness , more lore.
You say nova is useless and no one uses auras when fighting balance, well I'm balance and even I will use and aura when up against balance, and many people still use auras. Also some pets have May cast abilities that cast auras so nova is not useless. You talk about how people set for balance you know that's true even I carry Max dispels however if you have a rank of at least 1000 around the 1300/1400 you know wt school I normally face in those numbers..... That's right balance and anyone who fought balance that much would adapt and set but I always had dispels from the start. But balance is one of those schools that do seem a bit op of course people will set for the. You think towers and weakness is enough.
You talk about how people know to use there pips, when first up fighting balance. I've fought enough people and they still will let their pips grow instead of keeping them low. You say how it's a short delay, if I mana burn you and spam weakness on you till I get my pips back now your stuck trying to get rid of the weakness or I could even spam a tower. You say it's hard from second but the more battles you play the easier it gets like how it's easy to use on ice cause I all ready know they need to stack blades. It's not hard if you are a skilled player.
You say black mantels can be powered through since people have such high accuracy gear um not everyone has that gear.
I think I've answered most of your points u should be good with all this.
Efreet is not easy to spam like lore. Triage can be used by anyone since there are tc versions so balance can have that spell like all other schools. Lum weaver us weaker then lore also just gives one neg effect. Dimensional shift I mean really you that desperate to try and prove how much spells could be better then lore, I didn't even know that sole existed till my friend showed me it for fun he even said it's completely useless. Plaque don't think anyone uses it in 1v1 and again tc Balance like you said don't got shift or enfeebled but um balance also don't have dots so shift is useless for the. And most balances do t stack blades making enfeebled useless. If your talking about how enfeebled is so could for shutting down blade stacks, just know spamming lore with a million weakness has the same effect. Also tc enfeebles can be farmed so balance as well as all schools can have this spell.
You ask how balance stops shadow um lore spam weakness, mana burn. You ask how they stop feint well that question can be given to all schools smarts and all schools can easily reply back with the same answer one being tower. You ask how balance stops stacking again weakness , lore, mana burn , weakness , more lore.
You say nova is useless and no one uses auras when fighting balance, well I'm balance and even I will use and aura when up against balance, and many people still use auras. Also some pets have May cast abilities that cast auras so nova is not useless. You talk about how people set for balance you know that's true even I carry Max dispels however if you have a rank of at least 1000 around the 1300/1400 you know wt school I normally face in those numbers..... That's right balance and anyone who fought balance that much would adapt and set but I always had dispels from the start. But balance is one of those schools that do seem a bit op of course people will set for the. You think towers and weakness is enough.
You talk about how people know to use there pips, when first up fighting balance. I've fought enough people and they still will let their pips grow instead of keeping them low. You say how it's a short delay, if I mana burn you and spam weakness on you till I get my pips back now your stuck trying to get rid of the weakness or I could even spam a tower. You say it's hard from second but the more battles you play the easier it gets like how it's easy to use on ice cause I all ready know they need to stack blades. It's not hard if you are a skilled player.
You say black mantels can be powered through since people have such high accuracy gear um not everyone has that gear.
I think I've answered most of your points u should be good with all this.
Efreet is not easy to spam like lore.
>> Agreed, but Efreet can do some real damage, plus the Minus 90 on you when your second, has a real detrimental effect to your spell when attacking. I would much rather have a -20 on me, then a -90. Both spells are very good, no question about it.
>>Agreed, everyone can use TC, so that is not in question, I feel.
Lum weaver us weaker then lore also just gives one neg effect.
>> True, but when you add that spell to a Wizard that can outheal anyone in the Game, it makes a real difference.
Dimensional shift I mean really........l my friend showed me it for fun he even said it's completely useless.
>> Get into a battle with a Death Jade or Jade Life that is spamming Bad JuJu and Weakness, etc. After you get a ton of weakness on you, and a host of Traps, you are defenseless. You are a sitting duck for Shatter, and the finishing hit. Dimensional Shift can move all of that directly to the Minion, leaving you Free to attack. That spell is one of the most useful spells in the game, for Many different reasons. You friend has no idea how valuable that can be. I have a level 100 Myth, and you should see a Balance after he has stacked two or three feints, and I use Dime Shift.
Balance like you said don't got shift or enfeebled ..........o shift is useless for the. Also tc enfeebles.................. schools can have this spell.
>> TC enfeebles are very hard to come by, and take a huge amount of time. The entire point was that Balance does have limitation, that other schools do not.
You ask how they stop feint well that question can be given to all schools smarts and all schools can easily reply back with the same answer one being tower.
>> Ok, your second and you have two feints on you, and you put up two tower. A TC shatter is used on you and then a 10 pip spell. A Life stacks five different life traps and then is ready for a shatter. How do I get them off me before they hit? You say nova is useless and no one uses auras when fighting balance, well I'm balance and even I will use and aura when up against balance, and many people still use auras. Also some pets have May cast abilities that cast auras so nova is not useless.
>> Good points, let me change then and say almost useless.
You talk about how people set for balance you know that's true even I carry Max dispels…..
>> Just hope that I don’t go second to you, really hate those battles.
You talk about h.....................hting balance. I've ………………blades. It's not hard if you are a skilled player.
>> It’s not hard if the other player is unskilled, but what happens when you face a Very skilled opponent?
You say black mantels can be powered through sinc...........as that gear.
>> True, but remember the Black Mantels from Loremaster will only make them fizzle about 30% of the time anyway.
I think I've answered most of your points u should be good with all this.
