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Who is OP in PVP, not Balance for sure.

AuthorMessage
Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 12, 2014 wrote:
What rule am I making up about spectral blast? Once again I will ask you: Are you denying that Spectral Blast imitates the dpp of the associated elemental schools perfectly?

That's all very nice and good but the school descriptions tell me in general what types of spells I can expect from each school not whether said spells are balanced. As far as I know my argument is not "balance can't ave unique and powerful spells".

I am confused how you think Loremaster takes its effects from other schools considering both weakness and black mantle originate as balance school spells. Not that it has any bearing on my argument at all. No one is saying that Loremaster is an exception in terms of type of spell. What I am saying is that it is an exception in terms of balance damage dpp: It gains 2 effects and still does more dpp for a balance damage spell.

Spectral Blast, Hydra and Chimera do not follow balance damage dpp rules because they don't deal balance damage.
Eric,

I'm not getting what point you are trying to make, you say that Hydra and Spectra Blast don't deal
Balance damage and that they imitate the dpp of the associated elemental schools perfectly.
Therefore, Spectral Blast is 113 dpp and Hydra is 95 dpp??? You can have one rule for one
Balance spell that deal elemental and then a different rule for another Balance spell that deals
elemental.

Plus, if you state is true, then Chimera has to imitate the Spirit school perfectly. If that is true, then
how can Chimera be 113 dpp and Spectral Blast be 113 dpp? Even if Chimera is a higher spell,
they wouldn't equal the same dpp.

Last, I don't know how you can say that LoreMaster is an exception to Balance Damage, it's a
crafted spell. I think that I have proven that it's a perfectly balanced spell, exactly where it should be.
It's certainly not overpowered to any degree.

If you want to look at any spell and point a finger, maybe it should be Deer Knight.
(Ofcourse that would be after we take a solid look at Storm's non crafted spells first.... ).

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Sep 15, 2014 wrote:
Anyway, I see the whole Balance being overpowered, pretty much as a popular
belief (or fairy tale), that has been crafted for enjoyable reading for those
who would believe it.

Much like the popular myth that balance is weak because it has smaller universal blades and can't wand away weakness that is perpetuated by so many Balance wizards who just can't learn how to play their school effectively.
Or much like the popular belief that LoreMaster is overpowered, which it is not....

The average of all (6) schools Crafted school spells is 114.

Loremaster is 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects.
Lets say the reduced aftereffects are worth 7 dpp.

I think this clearly proves my point.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 12, 2014 wrote:
Once again I will point out to you

1)Once again do the number of exceptions to the rules outweigh the number of adherents to the rules?
2)The specific school damage spells(hydra, chimera, spectral blast) tend to deal more damage than balance damage spells because unlike balance damage they are shield-able by specific shields
Eric,

Are you saying that if 60 or 75 percent follow a set of rules, then the rules are acceptable.
No way, if you don't have 100 percent, then there is a problem, end of story.

The point is, that hydra does not follow the same rule as spectral blast. The dpp is way off,
but then Chimera is way off from Hydra also. Hydra should clearly be more dpp than
Chimera, and it is not.

Your point is not made, because it carries too many flaws that you cannot include in your
set of rules.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 12, 2014 wrote:
No it isn't. When compared against its peers(spells with effects) Loremaster is far ahead while having 2 weakened effects as compared to every other crafted spell's one effect.
Eric,

I completely disagree with that statement, because it clearly is.

The average of all (6) schools Crafted school spells is 114.

Loremaster is 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects.
Lets say the reduced aftereffects are worth 7 dpp.

The Average is 114 for Balance, LoreMaster is 107.5 with two very weak aftereffects.
If LoreMaster was 114 dpp with no aftereffects, it would be perfect.
Take away 7 dpp and add two weakened aftereffects, seem perfectly reasonable to me.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Veracity8 on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

I completely disagree with that statement, because it clearly is.

The average of all (6) schools Crafted school spells is 114.

Loremaster is 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects.
Lets say the reduced aftereffects are worth 7 dpp.

The Average is 114 for Balance, LoreMaster is 107.5 with two very weak aftereffects.
If LoreMaster was 114 dpp with no aftereffects, it would be perfect.
Take away 7 dpp and add two weakened aftereffects, seem perfectly reasonable to me.
Where do you get 114 dpp as an average for Balance?

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

I'm not getting what point you are trying to make, you say that Hydra and Spectra Blast don't deal
Balance damage and that they imitate the dpp of the associated elemental schools perfectly.
Therefore, Spectral Blast is 113 dpp and Hydra is 95 dpp??? You can have one rule for one
Balance spell that deal elemental and then a different rule for another Balance spell that deals
elemental.

Plus, if you state is true, then Chimera has to imitate the Spirit school perfectly. If that is true, then
how can Chimera be 113 dpp and Spectral Blast be 113 dpp? Even if Chimera is a higher spell,
they wouldn't equal the same dpp.

Last, I don't know how you can say that LoreMaster is an exception to Balance Damage, it's a
crafted spell. I think that I have proven that it's a perfectly balanced spell, exactly where it should be.
It's certainly not overpowered to any degree.

If you want to look at any spell and point a finger, maybe it should be Deer Knight.
(Ofcourse that would be after we take a solid look at Storm's non crafted spells first.... ).
I am not sure how you don't get what I am saying. Spectral Blast perfectly imitates the dpp for the elemental school. The ice damage portion of spectral blast deals the exact same dpp as wyvern. The fire damage portion of spectral blast deals the exact same dpp as Revenant. The storm portion of spectral blast deals the exact same dpp as Kraken. Hydra and Chimera do not act like spectral blast, they do not imitate the dpp of the elemental or spiritual schools.

I have demonstrated how loremaster is an exception to balance damage. It is the highest dpp balance damage spell in the game, while being low pip, while gaining 2 additional effects with no consequential additions. That is definitely overpowered.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
Or much like the popular belief that LoreMaster is overpowered, which it is not....

The average of all (6) schools Crafted school spells is 114.

Loremaster is 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects.
Lets say the reduced aftereffects are worth 7 dpp.

I think this clearly proves my point.
How does this prove any point at all? Balance damage has never been the average of all schools damage. Furthermore I have demonstrated how loremaster is far above every other crafted spell that gains an effect. How is that balanced?

Furthermore I went ahead and calculated the average dpp for all crafted spells:
Catalan+Deer Knight+Lord of Night+Ninja Pigs+Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Brimstone Revenant+Handsome Fomoori+Winter Moon+Goat Monk+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Samoorai+Loremaster

(690/5)+(570/5)+(425/5)+(640/5)+(325/4)+(325/4)+(440/4)+(490/5)+(495/5)+(480/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(500/5)+(430/4)=(1420.5)/14=

Average dpp of all crafted spells=101.5 dpp
So even using your skewed methodology loremaster is still above the curve.

Now lets take the average dpp of all crafted spells with effects:
Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Winter Moon+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Loremaster.

(325/4)+(325/4)+(495/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(430/4)/6=

Average dpp of all crafted spells with effects=92 dpp
Loremaster is far beyond the curve for average damage of crafted spells with effects.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

Are you saying that if 60 or 75 percent follow a set of rules, then the rules are acceptable.
No way, if you don't have 100 percent, then there is a problem, end of story.

The point is, that hydra does not follow the same rule as spectral blast. The dpp is way off,
but then Chimera is way off from Hydra also. Hydra should clearly be more dpp than
Chimera, and it is not.

Your point is not made, because it carries too many flaws that you cannot include in your
set of rules.
Actually more like 90+% of spells in wizard 101 follow those rules. Yes this is acceptable.
I agree that hydra does not follow the same rules as spectral blast. My point is perfectly valid for balance damage spells.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

I completely disagree with that statement, because it clearly is.

The average of all (6) schools Crafted school spells is 114.

Loremaster is 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects.
Lets say the reduced aftereffects are worth 7 dpp.

The Average is 114 for Balance, LoreMaster is 107.5 with two very weak aftereffects.
If LoreMaster was 114 dpp with no aftereffects, it would be perfect.
Take away 7 dpp and add two weakened aftereffects, seem perfectly reasonable to me.
See mathematical proof above. Your average rule doesn't make sense considering that balance damage is not the average of all other school's damage. Furthermore even using this rule loremaster is still above the curve.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
Actually more like 90+% of spells in wizard 101 follow those rules. Yes this is acceptable.
I agree that hydra does not follow the same rules as spectral blast. My point is perfectly valid for balance damage spells.
If you read anything at all that I said, my last post on page 6 says: Spectral Blast, Hydra and Chimera do follow Balance dpp rules. Hydra and Chimera are roughly the exact same as most other Balance damage spells, however Spectral Blast is higher. That is clear proof that Spectral Blast is an exception to Balance dpp, even though it's a Balance spell. I never did deny that Spectral Blast doesn't follow the rules of Fire, Ice, or Storm's dpp, but what I'm saying is that if a balance spell follows other school dpp's, there isn't such thing as a valid dpp anymore. Balance doesn't have a stable dpp, justifying Loremaster.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Oct 12, 2014 wrote:
Spectral Blast, Hydra and Chimera do follow Balance dpp rules. Hydra and Chimera are roughly the exact same as most other Balance damage spells, however Spectral Blast is higher. That is clear proof that Spectral Blast is an exception to Balance dpp, even though it's a Balance spell. I never did deny that Spectral Blast doesn't follow the rules of Fire, Ice, or Storm's dpp, but what I'm saying is that if a balance spell follows other school dpp's, there isn't such thing as a valid dpp anymore. Balance doesn't have a stable dpp, justifying Loremaster.

"I am confused how you think Loremaster takes its effects from other schools considering both weakness and black mantle originate as balance school spells." It takes its effects from Luminous Weaver and Krampus, but what you said just gave me another thought. Other schools are borrowing Balance's aftereffects from their spells, such as Weakness and Black Mantle. Because of that, in return, Balance is borrowing other school's dpp in return for them having Balance's aftereffects. Do you not notice how Krampus, Luminous Weaver, Efreet, etc. are having Balance aftereffects? If they can take something from Balance, why can't Balance take something from the other schools?

"As far as I know my argument is not balance can't have unique and powerful spells."

Loremaster is a unique and powerful spell, do you not agree? It's a spell that bends the so called "rules" you brought up, has aftereffects, and does a great deal of damage for its pip cost for a Balance spell. KI warned us that Balance would get unique and powerful spells, Loremaster is one of them.

I am confused how you think Loremaster is overpowered, while no other school was meant to have aftereffects behind their spells, all but Balance and Ice. Balance was supposed to have defensive aftereffects, Ice was supposed to have stuns. Because other schools have stuns after their attacks (borrowed from Ice), Ice's dpp has been a lot higher recently, and that's not just because the pip cost increases. Colossus does 86-96 dpp with no effects, while Lord of Winter does 95-105 dpp, while removing 3 pips. Ice also falls alongside Balance and Death in dpp, as seen in King Artorius.

If you also haven't noticed, every school but Balance has been getting major aftereffects from their spells recently while Balance has been dealing pure damage with no other gain. Where is this seen? Ra compared to Efreet, Snow Angel, Medusa, Skeletal Dragon. Chimera compared to Basilisk, Rain of Fire, Sirens, Gnomes, Dr Von's Monster, Woolly Mammoth. Balance has been lacking a massive amount of aftereffects from spells, and Loremaster helped Balance catch up. Imagine if Savage Paw and Loremaster didn't come out, or if Mana Burn was truly nerfed to what people want it to be. Balance would be the only school playing with only pure damage while every other school in the game can do 2 things at once, that's why Balance needs Loremaster.
Hydra is roughly the same as other balance damage spells, however Chimera is higher and spectral blast is imitative. Spectral blast imitates the other school's dpp while dealing off school damage. Loremaster deals balance damage meaning it should stay consistent with balance school dpp rules yes?

Loremaster is indeed a unique and powerful spell. However unique and powerful spells must also be balanced spells which is where the issue lies. I will once again point to link and power link which are very unique and powerful spells AND balanced.

Where are you drawing this idea that only the balance and ice schools were supposed to have spells with aftereffects? Balance already takes things from the other schools:
1)It takes their damage type with spectral blast, hydra and chimera
2)their shields with elemental and spiritual shields,
3)their blades with elemental and spiritual blades,
4)their spears with elemental and spiritual spears,
5)their minions with spectral minion,
6)their dispels with elemental and spirit defuse.

If balance wants to take another school's dpp then have the said spell deal the school it is imitating damage.

All the schools have been increasing their dpp fairly consistently as the pip level of their spells increases, including balance.

Lacking aftereffects? Lets examine the number of attacks with effects per school.
Balance-7(Loremaster, King A, Sabertooth, Supernova, Mana Burn, Power Nova, Savage Paw)
Fire-6(Link,Power Link, Efreet, Sun Serpent, King A, Krampus)
Ice-6(Winter Moon, Frost Giant, Snow Angel, Wooly Mammoth, Lord of Winter, King A)
Myth-6(Keeper of Flame, Earthquake, Medusa, Basilisk, Celestial Calender, King A)
Storm-4(Storm Lord, Leviathan, Sirens, King A)
Death-4(King A, Lord of Night, Dr Von, Avenging Fossil)
Life-3(Luminous Weaver, King A, Gnomes)

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
Actually more like 90+% of spells in wizard 101 follow those rules. Yes this is acceptable.
I agree that hydra does not follow the same rules as spectral blast. My point is perfectly valid for balance damage spells.
Eric,

Just perfect, I see this as saying all cars drive forward, that is a fact.
Although 10% of them drive backwards, but that is perfectly acceptable and means nothing.
The majority of them drive forward, therefore the rules have to be this.
No, absolutely not, if the rules are not followed for all, the rules mean nothing.

" Hydra and Chimera do not act like spectral blast, they do not imitate the dpp of the elemental or spiritual schools."

Ok, so the spirit school and the Elemental school have the same average dpp, interesting, I
didn't know that. They ofcourse follow your rules, therefore the schools are equal, ok, yep, makes sense.

"I have demonstrated how loremaster is an exception to balance damage. It is the highest dpp balance damage spell in the game, while being low pip, while gaining 2 additional effects with no consequential additions. That is definitely overpowered."

You cannot mix Crafted and Non Crafted as I stated, end of story. Crafted average is 114.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Veracity8 on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

Just perfect, I see this as saying all cars drive forward, that is a fact.
Although 10% of them drive backwards, but that is perfectly acceptable and means nothing.
The majority of them drive forward, therefore the rules have to be this.
No, absolutely not, if the rules are not followed for all, the rules mean nothing.

" Hydra and Chimera do not act like spectral blast, they do not imitate the dpp of the elemental or spiritual schools."

Ok, so the spirit school and the Elemental school have the same average dpp, interesting, I
didn't know that. They ofcourse follow your rules, therefore the schools are equal, ok, yep, makes sense.

"I have demonstrated how loremaster is an exception to balance damage. It is the highest dpp balance damage spell in the game, while being low pip, while gaining 2 additional effects with no consequential additions. That is definitely overpowered."

You cannot mix Crafted and Non Crafted as I stated, end of story. Crafted average is 114.
You stated BALANCE average is 114, also crafted average isn't 114 either. Hydra/Chimera cannot be compared to Spectral Blast. Hydra/Chimera are triple attacks, Spectral Blast is a single attack of a random school.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
You stated BALANCE average is 114, also crafted average isn't 114 either. Hydra/Chimera cannot be compared to Spectral Blast. Hydra/Chimera are triple attacks, Spectral Blast is a single attack of a random school.
If Balance's Crafted average is not 114, show me what it is. I expect since Balance is part of all schools,
then it is the average of all schools. If this is not true, then show me where is its printed by KI.

I took the Average of all non crafted schools, and that average is 104, which is above the
average that everyone is stating on Balance. If that is true, then Balance needs to have an
upgrade in dpp.
If Hydra and Chimer are not to be compared to Spectral Blast, then lets compare Hydra to
Chimera, Hydra dpp is 95, while Chimera's dpp is 113. On the other hands, Spectral Blast
also happens to be 113, the same as Chimera's. All three spells are not crafted, so there should be
equality, but there is not.
Eric's statement of this equal one and the other equals something else, doesn't really make any
sense.
If the rules don't cover all the spells, then the rules are wrong, plain and simple.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
How does this prove any point at all? Balance damage has never been the average of all schools damage. Furthermore I have demonstrated how loremaster is far above every other crafted spell that gains an effect. How is that balanced?

Furthermore I went ahead and calculated the average dpp for all crafted spells:
Catalan+Deer Knight+Lord of Night+Ninja Pigs+Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Brimstone Revenant+Handsome Fomoori+Winter Moon+Goat Monk+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Samoorai+Loremaster

(690/5)+(570/5)+(425/5)+(640/5)+(325/4)+(325/4)+(440/4)+(490/5)+(495/5)+(480/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(500/5)+(430/4)=(1420.5)/14=

Average dpp of all crafted spells=101.5 dpp
So even using your skewed methodology loremaster is still above the curve.

Now lets take the average dpp of all crafted spells with effects:
Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Winter Moon+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Loremaster.

(325/4)+(325/4)+(495/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(430/4)/6=

Average dpp of all crafted spells with effects=92 dpp
Loremaster is far beyond the curve for average damage of crafted spells with effects.
Eric,

WEll, I decided to look again at my skewed methodology and
try to locate my error and why we have a difference.
I finally found my error, it was in Deer Knight, where
I stated that it was 114. I had to ajust this because it
was a Attack all, and was damage over rounds.
The two adjustments do not offset themselves, as I had
originally expected.

The adjustment for this was an error of 97.2 percent.

I calculated this based on Ice's average, compared to
Frostbite and Blizzard, as Death had no compairable way
to generate the potential error.

Adjusting for the Error on Deer Knight should bring it
within an acceptable value, that value is 111 dpp.

Now, lets look at your flaws, in your 101.5 you are adding
in all spells with their aftereffects into the equation
.
Ofcoure you will come up with a flawed and skewed value this
way. You simple cannot do that, it makes no sense at all.


You first need to come up with a percentage of change, between
a standard spell and the same school with it's effect.
(Whether that aftereffect/effect is Damage over time, Attack all,
or a weakness, stun, etc, aftereffect.
You have not done this, so you data is invalid, completely.

Calculating non-crafted spells, with no aftereffect, the
DPP is exactly 104.

Calculating Crafted spells, with no aftereffect, the
DPP is exactly 113.5. (This is with the adjustment for
Deer Knight).

LoreMaster at 107.5 with two aftereffects is acceptable and clearly not OverPowered.

Now, since you have given me rules, here are some rules for you.

1. Do not mix Spells with no aftereffect wtih spells with
aftereffects, unless you have an adjustment.
2. Do not mix Crafted Spells with non crafted spells.
3. Do not mix Crafted Spells with no aftereffect wtih
crafted spells with aftereffects, unless you have an adjustment.
4. "Do" calculate the error between a DOT and a normal single hit
spell.
5. "Do" calculate the error between an "attack all" spells and a
normal single hit spell.
6. Calculate the difference between aftereffects and use it in
your calculations (something I have not completed yet).
7. I'm sure you get the idea by now, you cannot calculate the
data the way you are attempting to do it. Doing this just
skewed the data, and it is meaningless.

"Balance damage has never been the average of all schools damage."

This is clearly where we disagree, everything thing that KI states, implies that
this statement is incorrect. If you decide to reply, please correct your data first.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 14, 2014 wrote:
Hydra is roughly the same as other balance damage spells, however Chimera is higher and spectral blast is imitative. Spectral blast imitates the other school's dpp while dealing off school damage. Loremaster deals balance damage meaning it should stay consistent with balance school dpp rules yes?

Loremaster is indeed a unique and powerful spell. However unique and powerful spells must also be balanced spells which is where the issue lies. I will once again point to link and power link which are very unique and powerful spells AND balanced.

Where are you drawing this idea that only the balance and ice schools were supposed to have spells with aftereffects? Balance already takes things from the other schools:
1)It takes their damage type with spectral blast, hydra and chimera
2)their shields with elemental and spiritual shields,
3)their blades with elemental and spiritual blades,
4)their spears with elemental and spiritual spears,
5)their minions with spectral minion,
6)their dispels with elemental and spirit defuse.

If balance wants to take another school's dpp then have the said spell deal the school it is imitating damage.

All the schools have been increasing their dpp fairly consistently as the pip level of their spells increases, including balance.

Lacking aftereffects? Lets examine the number of attacks with effects per school.
Balance-7(Loremaster, King A, Sabertooth, Supernova, Mana Burn, Power Nova, Savage Paw)
Fire-6(Link,Power Link, Efreet, Sun Serpent, King A, Krampus)
Ice-6(Winter Moon, Frost Giant, Snow Angel, Wooly Mammoth, Lord of Winter, King A)
Myth-6(Keeper of Flame, Earthquake, Medusa, Basilisk, Celestial Calender, King A)
Storm-4(Storm Lord, Leviathan, Sirens, King A)
Death-4(King A, Lord of Night, Dr Von, Avenging Fossil)
Life-3(Luminous Weaver, King A, Gnomes)
Hydra is roughly the same as other Balance spells because it's a Balance spell. Like I said, because Spectral Blast is a Balance spell, it's consistent with Balance dpp and the elemental school dpp because of its average damage. So like I said a million times, and my point on this is not changing: Spectral Blast says that Loremaster lies between Balance's dpp. If that were not the case for Balance, then Arcticzilla, Flamezilla, and all those other TC's are overpowered spells as well for their own school, which they're not.

Balance was supposed to take things from other schools, hence the name. You learn that in the first 2 minutes that you play Wizard101, of course it's going to take attributes from other schools and have a weaker version of it. Want to see what other schools take from Balance?
1) Weakness aftereffects
2) Mantle aftereffects
3) Power pip chance from gear

Fire, Ice, and Myth have only 1 less spell that leaves an aftereffect, and Sabertooth is never used by any Balance in PvP, so don't even count that. Now let's see what advantages they have over Balance:
1) The ability to wand off Weaknesses while keeping their own school blades
2) A 2 pip bubble changer
3) 70% shields
4) DoT's and shield removers
5) Pierce blades
6) With the ability to blade more efficiently, they also have the ability to use Sharpen Blade
7) Stuns
8) Prisms against setters

I also said if Loremaster, Supernova and Mana Burn didn't exist because they were apparently "overpowered", then Balance would be lagging far behind other schools in spells that leave aftereffects.

The way I see it as well is that the only spells Balance has been getting that leave aftereffects that aren't crafted and aren't situational are King Artorius, Sabertooth, and Power Nova. Let's compare this to other schools:
Fire- Link, Power Link, Efreet, Sun Serpent, King Artorius, Fire Elf, Scald, Rain of Fire, Fire Dragon, Heckhound
Ice- Frost Giant, Snow Angel, Woolly mammoth, Lord of Winter, King Artorius, Frostbite
Myth- Earthquake, Medusa, Basilisk, Celestial Calendar, King Artorius
Storm- Storm Lord, Leviathan, Sirens, King Artorius
Death- Dr Von's Monster, Avenging Fossil, King Artorius, Poison, Skeletal Dragon
Life- King Artorius, Gnomes, Spinysaur

Balance would be tied with Life, the bottom of the list for aftereffects. Remember, most of Balance's aftereffect spells are only situational, so you can't even compare them to other schools' amounts of aftereffects. Loremaster, King Artorius and Savage Paw are Balance's only spells that have reliable aftereffects and are worth the pip cost in 1v1, so your point doesn't prove anything about Balance being overpowered.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
seethe42 on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
You stated BALANCE average is 114, also crafted average isn't 114 either. Hydra/Chimera cannot be compared to Spectral Blast. Hydra/Chimera are triple attacks, Spectral Blast is a single attack of a random school.
If Hydra and Chimera can't be compared to Spectral Blast, then that means Spectral Blast can't be compared to Kraken, Ice Wyvern, and Brimstone Revenant. That explains nothing, as Hydra and Chimera are also Balance spells attacking with Elemental and Spirit schools.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric and Seethe, I just wanted to ask you guys something. You've been telling me and Veracity8 that Spectral Blast functions differently than Balance spells and that it shouldn't be included in Balance's average dpp for 4 pip single hit spells, but I want to bring up this point. Are you saying that if a Storm wizard uses a Storm Prism and attacks with Myth damage, that the hit is supposed to go by Myth's dpp? I mean, it avoids Storm Shields as Spectral Blast doesn't, it consumes Storm's blades and possibly Storm's traps, uses Storm's damage boost and critical like Spectral Blast, so you tell me the difference. It's then a Storm spell hitting Myth damage, and Spectral Blast is a Balance spell hitting Elemental damage. I don't see the difference between the two, so explain to me how Spectral Blast's dpp doesn't justify Loremaster.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Oct 14, 2014 wrote:
If you read anything at all that I said, my last post on page 6 says: Spectral Blast, Hydra and Chimera do follow Balance dpp rules. Hydra and Chimera are roughly the exact same as most other Balance damage spells, however Spectral Blast is higher. That is clear proof that Spectral Blast is an exception to Balance dpp, even though it's a Balance spell. I never did deny that Spectral Blast doesn't follow the rules of Fire, Ice, or Storm's dpp, but what I'm saying is that if a balance spell follows other school dpp's, there isn't such thing as a valid dpp anymore. Balance doesn't have a stable dpp, justifying Loremaster.
No they do not as is obviously demonstrated. Spectral Blast follows the dpp rule of either storm, fire or ice. Hydra is on par-slightly above balance's dpp and chimera is far above balance's dpp. So according to you because balance's elemental damage spells follow elemental damage rules then balance's balance damage spell must also follow elemental damage rules despite this consistently proving not to be the case? In other words any dpp is justified for balance without consequence?

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Oct 13, 2014 wrote:
Where do you get 114 dpp as an average for Balance?
Hi seethe42,

Sorry, I missed this question when scanning all the other messages. My 114 was in error, it
really should have been 113.5. Please note that this value is only for Crafted spells, and has
nothing to do with the average of non crafted spells which has an average of 104.

I'm sure that when people calculate this, they will say that I did not take in the 5% accuracy
loss of Ninja Pips and drop the dpp. Doing this only changes the crafted average dpp by
~1, and I really didn't see this as a major difference.

Back to the above question,
How did I get this value for non crafted schools, I took only spells that had no aftereffect and
calculated the average (all spells were one hit and either 5 or 6 pip spells).
You cannot add in spells with an aftereffect, or DOT or HOT, as that skews the data.
Plus, I did not add balance into this, as this school has been nerfed, it should be 104 and
is only 100. I expect that this is because there is only one shield for pure Balance.

For Crafted spells, I noted the average was higher in each case, with the exception of Fire and Storm.
I therefore took only crafted spells that had no aftereffect, and took the average, which is 113.5.
Again, I only used the Main Six schools, as Balance is the average or part of all schools, so I did not
add it in. I did have to adjust for Deer Knight, as it was HOT and DOT, and the two do not cancel each
other out. So, I had to calculate each one independently (and I used Ice as a reference to calculate the
percentage of change). If Death had a one hit spells, it would have made it easier, but as it is,
Deer Knight has a adjusted dpp of 111. (My original dpp for Deer Knight was 114, my mistake).

I have tried this many different ways, and the only way that make sense is the above method.

If anyone wants to say that LoreMaster is well overpowered, maybe they should look at Myth or Death
first. Myth average is 99 dpp, but the crafted spell is 128 with only a 5% accuracy loss.
Death average is 94 dpp, but Deer Knight's adjusted is 111, a pretty solid increase.
Even Life and Ice take good jumps when we compare standard to crafted.

Loremaster is only 107.5 dpp with two weak aftereffects while the average for all crafted schools is
~113. I really don't see where anyone can call this spell out of line, with the Crafted line of spells.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

Just perfect, I see this as saying all cars drive forward, that is a fact.
Although 10% of them drive backwards, but that is perfectly acceptable and means nothing.
The majority of them drive forward, therefore the rules have to be this.
No, absolutely not, if the rules are not followed for all, the rules mean nothing.

" Hydra and Chimera do not act like spectral blast, they do not imitate the dpp of the elemental or spiritual schools."

Ok, so the spirit school and the Elemental school have the same average dpp, interesting, I
didn't know that. They ofcourse follow your rules, therefore the schools are equal, ok, yep, makes sense.

"I have demonstrated how loremaster is an exception to balance damage. It is the highest dpp balance damage spell in the game, while being low pip, while gaining 2 additional effects with no consequential additions. That is definitely overpowered."

You cannot mix Crafted and Non Crafted as I stated, end of story. Crafted average is 114.
Then I suppose its meaningless to categorize mammals as animals that give live birth because some lay eggs?Or the octet rule of chemistry is meaningless because there are some exceptions? Nearly every set of rules you can think of have exceptions. In cases where exceptions are in the vast minority, the exceptions prove the rule. Where in the world do you get the idea that spiritual and elemental schools deal the same dpp from ANYTHING I have said? End of Story? You still have not given me any valid reason why we cannot compare the dpp of crafted spells to non-crafted spells. I also have proven that the average of crafted spells is far below 114. You have also yet to state where you get the idea that the balance school deals the average of all other school's damage.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
If Balance's Crafted average is not 114, show me what it is. I expect since Balance is part of all schools,
then it is the average of all schools. If this is not true, then show me where is its printed by KI.

I took the Average of all non crafted schools, and that average is 104, which is above the
average that everyone is stating on Balance. If that is true, then Balance needs to have an
upgrade in dpp.
If Hydra and Chimer are not to be compared to Spectral Blast, then lets compare Hydra to
Chimera, Hydra dpp is 95, while Chimera's dpp is 113. On the other hands, Spectral Blast
also happens to be 113, the same as Chimera's. All three spells are not crafted, so there should be
equality, but there is not.
Eric's statement of this equal one and the other equals something else, doesn't really make any
sense.
If the rules don't cover all the spells, then the rules are wrong, plain and simple.
"If Balance's Crafted average is not 114, show me what it is. I expect since Balance is part of all schools,
then it is the average of all schools. If this is not true, then show me where is its printed by KI."

Balance's crafted average is Savage Paw(500/5)+Samoorai(500/5)+Loremaster(430/4)=102.5
Finally, YOU are the one making the claim that balance is the average of all schools hence the burden of proof lies on you not us. You show me where KI states that balance is the average damage of all schools. I on the other hand can show you the mathematical proof for every pip level of spell tha proves that balance damage is NOT the average of ll other schools.

Why does balance's dpp need to be raised? No where has KI stated that balance damage is the average of other school's damage. No where in KI's spell design for the associated pip levels is this true. What are you basing the concept of balance being the average of all other school's damage on?

No there should not be equality between all 3 spells. As I have repeatedly stated AND IRREFUTABLY demonstrated Spectral Blast borrows its dpp from the associated elements. Hydra dealing less dpp than Chimera is consistent with the more damage per higher pip cost trend that has been occurring throughout the game. Once again exceptions to the rules that are followed by the majority do not prove the rule wrong.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

WEll, I decided to look again at my skewed methodology and
try to locate my error and why we have a difference.
I finally found my error, it was in Deer Knight, where
I stated that it was 114. I had to ajust this because it
was a Attack all, and was damage over rounds.
The two adjustments do not offset themselves, as I had
originally expected.

The adjustment for this was an error of 97.2 percent.

I calculated this based on Ice's average, compared to
Frostbite and Blizzard, as Death had no compairable way
to generate the potential error.

Adjusting for the Error on Deer Knight should bring it
within an acceptable value, that value is 111 dpp.

Now, lets look at your flaws, in your 101.5 you are adding
in all spells with their aftereffects into the equation
.
Ofcoure you will come up with a flawed and skewed value this
way. You simple cannot do that, it makes no sense at all.


You first need to come up with a percentage of change, between
a standard spell and the same school with it's effect.
(Whether that aftereffect/effect is Damage over time, Attack all,
or a weakness, stun, etc, aftereffect.
You have not done this, so you data is invalid, completely.

Calculating non-crafted spells, with no aftereffect, the
DPP is exactly 104.

Calculating Crafted spells, with no aftereffect, the
DPP is exactly 113.5. (This is with the adjustment for
Deer Knight).

LoreMaster at 107.5 with two aftereffects is acceptable and clearly not OverPowered.

Now, since you have given me rules, here are some rules for you.

1. Do not mix Spells with no aftereffect wtih spells with
aftereffects, unless you have an adjustment.
2. Do not mix Crafted Spells with non crafted spells.
3. Do not mix Crafted Spells with no aftereffect wtih
crafted spells with aftereffects, unless you have an adjustment.
4. "Do" calculate the error between a DOT and a normal single hit
spell.
5. "Do" calculate the error between an "attack all" spells and a
normal single hit spell.
6. Calculate the difference between aftereffects and use it in
your calculations (something I have not completed yet).
7. I'm sure you get the idea by now, you cannot calculate the
data the way you are attempting to do it. Doing this just
skewed the data, and it is meaningless.

"Balance damage has never been the average of all schools damage."

This is clearly where we disagree, everything thing that KI states, implies that
this statement is incorrect. If you decide to reply, please correct your data first.
Why are you making those adjustments?
Of course I added all the crafted spells to come up with the average. I demonstrated my math, now you show me yours.

"Now, lets look at your flaws, in your 101.5 you are adding
in all spells with their aftereffects into the equation.
Of coure you will come up with a flawed and skewed value this
way. You simple cannot do that, it makes no sense at all."


Why does it make no sense at all? You asked me for the average of all crafted spells.

"You first need to come up with a percentage of change, between
a standard spell and the same school with it's effect.
(Whether that aftereffect/effect is Damage over time, Attack all,
or a weakness, stun, etc, aftereffect.
You have not done this, so you data is invalid, completely."

What is this percentage of change going to be used for?

"Calculating non-crafted spells, with no aftereffect, the
DPP is exactly 104.
Calculating Crafted spells, with no aftereffect, the
DPP is exactly 113.5. (This is with the adjustment for
Deer Knight)."

So in other words you wish to compare Loremaster a crafted spell with aftereffects to spells with no aftereffects?

Lets use your rules
1)"Do not mix Spells with no aftereffect wtih spells with
aftereffects, unless you have an adjustment"

So we can only compare Loremaster a spell with effects to other spells with effects.

2)Do not mix Crafted Spells with non crafted spells.

So we can only compare Loremaster a crafted spell with effects, to other crafted spells with effects.

3)Do not mix Crafted Spells with no aftereffect wtih
crafted spells with aftereffects, unless you have an adjustment.

So we can only compare loremaster a crafted spell with aftereffects, with other crafted spells with aftereffects.

4)"Do" calculate the error between a DOT and a normal single hit
spell.
5)"Do" calculate the error between an "attack all" spells and a
normal single hit spell.

Only one crafted spell is both a DoT and an AoE and according to you, the adjustment has been calculated(using what methodology im not sure) so we will use your adjusted value for Deer Knight.

6. Calculate the difference between aftereffects and use it in
your calculations(something I have not completed yet).

The differences between aftereffects will make little difference considering that Loremaster has 2 weakened aftereffects to other crafted spell's one normal effect.

7. I'm sure you get the idea by now, you cannot calculate the
data the way you are attempting to do it. Doing this just
skewed the data, and it is meaningless.

We will use your rules:.

Loremaster(430/4)+Krampus(325/4)+Keeper of the Flame(325/4)+Luminous Weaver(330/4)+Savage Paw(500/5)+Lord of Night(425/5)+Deer Knight(570/5)=
Average dpp=93

Hmm even using your rules Loremaster is still beyond the dpp curve.

Where in what KI states does it imply this? I can demonstrate the fact that balance damage is not the average of all other school's damage at every pip lvl if you would like.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
Hydra is roughly the same as other Balance spells because it's a Balance spell. Like I said, because Spectral Blast is a Balance spell, it's consistent with Balance dpp and the elemental school dpp because of its average damage. So like I said a million times, and my point on this is not changing: Spectral Blast says that Loremaster lies between Balance's dpp. If that were not the case for Balance, then Arcticzilla, Flamezilla, and all those other TC's are overpowered spells as well for their own school, which they're not.

Balance was supposed to take things from other schools, hence the name. You learn that in the first 2 minutes that you play Wizard101, of course it's going to take attributes from other schools and have a weaker version of it. Want to see what other schools take from Balance?
1) Weakness aftereffects
2) Mantle aftereffects
3) Power pip chance from gear

Fire, Ice, and Myth have only 1 less spell that leaves an aftereffect, and Sabertooth is never used by any Balance in PvP, so don't even count that. Now let's see what advantages they have over Balance:
1) The ability to wand off Weaknesses while keeping their own school blades
2) A 2 pip bubble changer
3) 70% shields
4) DoT's and shield removers
5) Pierce blades
6) With the ability to blade more efficiently, they also have the ability to use Sharpen Blade
7) Stuns
8) Prisms against setters

I also said if Loremaster, Supernova and Mana Burn didn't exist because they were apparently "overpowered", then Balance would be lagging far behind other schools in spells that leave aftereffects.

The way I see it as well is that the only spells Balance has been getting that leave aftereffects that aren't crafted and aren't situational are King Artorius, Sabertooth, and Power Nova. Let's compare this to other schools:
Fire- Link, Power Link, Efreet, Sun Serpent, King Artorius, Fire Elf, Scald, Rain of Fire, Fire Dragon, Heckhound
Ice- Frost Giant, Snow Angel, Woolly mammoth, Lord of Winter, King Artorius, Frostbite
Myth- Earthquake, Medusa, Basilisk, Celestial Calendar, King Artorius
Storm- Storm Lord, Leviathan, Sirens, King Artorius
Death- Dr Von's Monster, Avenging Fossil, King Artorius, Poison, Skeletal Dragon
Life- King Artorius, Gnomes, Spinysaur

Balance would be tied with Life, the bottom of the list for aftereffects. Remember, most of Balance's aftereffect spells are only situational, so you can't even compare them to other schools' amounts of aftereffects. Loremaster, King Artorius and Savage Paw are Balance's only spells that have reliable aftereffects and are worth the pip cost in 1v1, so your point doesn't prove anything about Balance being overpowered.
Spectral Blast is a balance spell that does elemental damage. The elemental damage it deals is precisely aligned to the other school's dpp and hence does not fall within balance damage dpp. All the zilla mutates are in fact overpowered as is easily seen by comparing them to the appropriate spells said schools receive at the pip levels. I also demonstrated how balance takes from the other schools. Here is the list again in case you missed it:

1)It takes their damage type with spectral blast, hydra and chimera
2)their shields with elemental and spiritual shields,
3)their blades with elemental and spiritual blades,
4)their spears with elemental and spiritual spears,
5)their minions with spectral minion,
6)their dispels with elemental and spirit defuse.

So they have less spells with aftereffects but you don't like that so Sabertooth magically doesn't count as a spell with an aftereffect.

Yes they have advantages over balance just like balance has advantages over them.

The existence argument is a great one against people who are arguing they shouldn't exist. Im not one of those people so you can take that argument elsewhere.
Balance would be tied with life...If those spells didn't exist(and if DoT's were effects) but Lo and Behold they do exist and thus balance is at the head of the list in terms of spells with effects. The balance school isnt the only one with situational effects. All the other schools have effects that are situational. So mana burn and supernova are ineffective in 1v1 but spells like sirens and leviathan are effective there? Okie dokey then

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
If Hydra and Chimera can't be compared to Spectral Blast, then that means Spectral Blast can't be compared to Kraken, Ice Wyvern, and Brimstone Revenant. That explains nothing, as Hydra and Chimera are also Balance spells attacking with Elemental and Spirit schools.
Hydra and Chimera deals 3 split hits. Spectral blast deals one hit that deals the same damage type and dpp as the associated elemental school. What isn't explained here?