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Who is OP in PVP, not Balance for sure.

AuthorMessage
Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Here is the main point of this posting, is Balance or LoreMaster Overpowered?

The Definition of OverPowered is:

A. To overcome or vanquish by "superior force"; completely subdue.

B. To affect so strongly as to make completely helpless or ineffective, or to overwhelm.

If they are OverPowered, then they are basically undefeatable, they will win each and
every match they enter. I certainly don't see Balance as OverPowered.
I don't see LoreMaster as Overpowered either, a good spell, but certainly not
overpowering, as the definition states. Maybe a Jade Death can fit that definition, but
I don't see anyway a Balance even with LoreMaster can.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Veracity8 on Sep 23, 2014 wrote:
Here is the main point of this posting, is Balance or LoreMaster Overpowered?

The Definition of OverPowered is:

A. To overcome or vanquish by "superior force"; completely subdue.

B. To affect so strongly as to make completely helpless or ineffective, or to overwhelm.

If they are OverPowered, then they are basically undefeatable, they will win each and
every match they enter. I certainly don't see Balance as OverPowered.
I don't see LoreMaster as Overpowered either, a good spell, but certainly not
overpowering, as the definition states. Maybe a Jade Death can fit that definition, but
I don't see anyway a Balance even with LoreMaster can.
There is no doubt that Balance is an easy school to play, I'll give everybody that. You have room to waste training points on some not very important spells that other schools don't get for free (Availing Hands instead of Satyr, Weakness is free, Reshuffle is free, etc.). They get nice 50% shields to all Elemental and Spirit schools, and a 25% debuff for fighting Balance. They also get the advantage of having a much higher chance to critical their own school heals. Given these advantages, there are some disadvantages that come with them. For example, since Balance, Life and Death are able to critical heals and/or drains with their main school critical rating, they have a lower critical rating than the other schools. Where is Storm more "overpowered"? Storm has the highest critical rating plus the highest heal per pip and damage per pip spells in the game. Healing Current has a chance of healing 333.33 per pip and Wild Bolt has a chance of dealing 500 damage per pip.

Some may say Balance has the bigger advantage, some may say Storm has the bigger advantage. I personally believe that most people are coming up with excuses to nerf Balance because they can't deal with Mana Burn. In some Ranked matches I've done, some people have fled because I used Mana Burn once. Sometimes the Mana Burn isn't timed well, and sometimes it's timed the turn my opponent hits. The only situation Mana Burn is good in is when you use it the turn before your opponent has enough pips to use their own overpowered spell, which more than half the time, is replaced by a lower pip version of itself (Frostbite over Snow angel for example).

If you ask me, I think Loremaster puts Balance where it deserves to be. After being voted the worst school from 2010-2012, until the Avalon release, Balance got the worst gear, the worst spells, and the worst just about everything it could get. Same thing happened with Ice, it had its reign in Zafaria through Azteca times, now it's not as potent. Death was horrible throughout 2009-2013 in PvP and now has its chance to reign in the Arena. Loremaster, Mana Burn, Supernova, Savage Paw, take those away and Balance is back to using Locust Swarm as its hammer attack. That's what people need to understand; Balance only sticks to those spells because its other spells are inexcusably useless. Donate Power and Power Play, 2 joke spells for PvP.

Some people also said Availing Hands heals too much. Well, there's a spell that Ice wizards have called Snow Drift. It makes healing against Ice not only useless, but helps them for your pips. Not only that, but one of the best amulets in the game gives the spell with it. I wouldn't say Balance is overpowered, KingsIsle did a nice job Balancing it right in the meta with gear and spells. Nearly everything counters Balance perfectly, the only thing that isn't given free is skill.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Sep 23, 2014 wrote:
Here is the main point of this posting, is Balance or LoreMaster Overpowered?

The Definition of OverPowered is:

A. To overcome or vanquish by "superior force"; completely subdue.

B. To affect so strongly as to make completely helpless or ineffective, or to overwhelm.

If they are OverPowered, then they are basically undefeatable, they will win each and
every match they enter. I certainly don't see Balance as OverPowered.
I don't see LoreMaster as Overpowered either, a good spell, but certainly not
overpowering, as the definition states. Maybe a Jade Death can fit that definition, but
I don't see anyway a Balance even with LoreMaster can.
What you have committed here is the logical fallacy of equivocation. When we speak of loremaster being overpowered we are not referring to it as a spell that guarantees a win but rather a spell that defies the expected rules and power levels as expounded in wizard 101. Here are the rules of spell design that have remained fairly consistent. Loremaster defies both of these tenets and hence the inarguable fact that it is overpowered.

1)Spells with an added effect pay for it by having a lower damage per pip than expected for school(seen in luminous weaver, krampus,leviathan) or by being high cost(seen with efreet,medusa, gnomes). Loremaster defies this rule by being both low cost AND paying no cost in damage per pip despite having 2 aftereffects.

2)Spells with a higher damage per pip pay for it with a conditional effect(seen in wild bolt, insane bolt) or with lower accuracy(seen in supernova, ninja pigs, almost every storm attack). Loremaster defies this by having a higher damage per pip with NO consequential effect OR lower accuracy.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 24, 2014 wrote:
What you have committed here is the logical fallacy of equivocation. When we speak of loremaster being overpowered we are not referring to it as a spell that guarantees a win but rather a spell that defies the expected rules and power levels as expounded in wizard 101. Here are the rules of spell design that have remained fairly consistent. Loremaster defies both of these tenets and hence the inarguable fact that it is overpowered.

1)Spells with an added effect pay for it by having a lower damage per pip than expected for school(seen in luminous weaver, krampus,leviathan) or by being high cost(seen with efreet,medusa, gnomes). Loremaster defies this rule by being both low cost AND paying no cost in damage per pip despite having 2 aftereffects.

2)Spells with a higher damage per pip pay for it with a conditional effect(seen in wild bolt, insane bolt) or with lower accuracy(seen in supernova, ninja pigs, almost every storm attack). Loremaster defies this by having a higher damage per pip with NO consequential effect OR lower accuracy.
While Loremaster does more damage per pip than most Balance spells and leaves 2 after effects, you can see lots of Balance spells slipping under the average damage line. Ra does less damage per pip than almost any spell in the game and costs 8 pips. That's 70 damage per pip, which is pretty weak. Ice, the weakest damage school in the game, does 95 damage per pip with Snow Angel. Storm, Fire and Myth still have level 48 spells that are better than Ra. After Ra came Chimera, a spell that does 113 damage per pip. Myth got a spell that does 127 damage per pip, is very hard to shield, and stuns the opponent. It's called Basilisk. Then Balance's next attack; Sabertooth. 1000-1100 damage, which is 100-111 damage per pip and leaves a Spirit Shield, which 57% of the time is useless (4 of 7 schools are not Spirit schools). Fire got a spell that does more damage than Sabertooth (nearly as much on the initial hit) and 300 damage to all enemies. If AoE's are supposed to be weaker than one enemy attacks, Sun Serpent breaks that law perfectly.

On top of that, Myth got a very overpowered version of King Artorius. 133 damage per pip, hard to shield because it's a DoT, removes an enemy's shield, and puts a 10% Mythspear on yourself.

Now let's compare Donate Power and Power Play to other school's spells. Donate Power is useless in 1v1, use 3 pips to gain 2 pips. Not so much of a great idea. What did other schools get at level 33? Storm got Darkwind, Fire got Phoenix, Ice got Balefrost, Death got Doom and Gloom, Life got Centaur, Myth got Minotaur. All those spells are useful, but Balance got a useless spell. Then what's next? Power Play. A spell that boosts everybody's power pip chance for your 4 pips, which is the worst bubble in the game. Nobody ever uses it for PvE or PvP, that's how useless it is.

My final point right now is that all schools can use Loremaster freely. At level 50, you can use a Balance Mastery Amulet, have the same Balance damage boost as any other Grandmaster Balance wizard, and you can use spells from your own school too. Loremaster helps all schools, not just Balance.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 24, 2014 wrote:
What you have committed here is the logical fallacy of equivocation. When we speak of loremaster being overpowered we are not referring to it as a spell that guarantees a win but rather a spell that defies the expected rules and power levels as expounded in wizard 101. Here are the rules of spell design that have remained fairly consistent. Loremaster defies both of these tenets and hence the inarguable fact that it is overpowered.

1)Spells with an added effect pay for it by having a lower damage per pip than expected for school(seen in luminous weaver, krampus,leviathan) or by being high cost(seen with efreet,medusa, gnomes). Loremaster defies this rule by being both low cost AND paying no cost in damage per pip despite having 2 aftereffects.

2)Spells with a higher damage per pip pay for it with a conditional effect(seen in wild bolt, insane bolt) or with lower accuracy(seen in supernova, ninja pigs, almost every storm attack). Loremaster defies this by having a higher damage per pip with NO consequential effect OR lower accuracy.
Let me make sure I get this right, the definition of OverPowered changes to meet your
requirements, based on your definition of what a spell should be... ok, got it.

So the above two rules have to be followed by KI exactly, and cannot be altered to
add a benefit to a school that needs help?

Since you have no idea what the real numbers are, and only KI does, you are making
an assumption, and you know what that means?

Have you noticed how much gear is being sold in the Packs that has huge universal
resist, damage, etc? I have seen many players use LoreMaster very, very effectively,
with massive damage. I would agree with you, if only Balance had this spell, but
anyone can craft this spell. Therefore, if the spell is overpowered, then everyone
has an overpowered spell, so it makes little difference.

I was hit by a Fire last night, that did about 2600 with a Loremaster last night.
So, it can be a pretty universal spell, and if Overpowered according to your terms,
give everyone the exact same benefit.

The fact is, KI can change the rules to fit what they need, to compensate for and adjust
for what they see in the data they have. Since you have never seen this data,
you are making a statement that may or may not really be valid. Therefore, I see it that
KI has make a spell that is "needed" for Balance (and other schools), and therefore is
not overpowered at all. Btw, how many Balance Wizards at 95 to 100 do you have?

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Veracity8 on Sep 24, 2014 wrote:
Let me make sure I get this right, the definition of OverPowered changes to meet your
requirements, based on your definition of what a spell should be... ok, got it.

So the above two rules have to be followed by KI exactly, and cannot be altered to
add a benefit to a school that needs help?

Since you have no idea what the real numbers are, and only KI does, you are making
an assumption, and you know what that means?

Have you noticed how much gear is being sold in the Packs that has huge universal
resist, damage, etc? I have seen many players use LoreMaster very, very effectively,
with massive damage. I would agree with you, if only Balance had this spell, but
anyone can craft this spell. Therefore, if the spell is overpowered, then everyone
has an overpowered spell, so it makes little difference.

I was hit by a Fire last night, that did about 2600 with a Loremaster last night.
So, it can be a pretty universal spell, and if Overpowered according to your terms,
give everyone the exact same benefit.

The fact is, KI can change the rules to fit what they need, to compensate for and adjust
for what they see in the data they have. Since you have never seen this data,
you are making a statement that may or may not really be valid. Therefore, I see it that
KI has make a spell that is "needed" for Balance (and other schools), and therefore is
not overpowered at all. Btw, how many Balance Wizards at 95 to 100 do you have?
So based on your summation and rant, every player in the game has Balance mastery and gets the same pips to cast Loremaster? Everyone also has high balance critical gear too. You know darn well that any spell can be used by any school, that doesn't mean that the natural school doesn't have a huge advantage using it over off school casters.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Sep 25, 2014 wrote:
So based on your summation and rant, every player in the game has Balance mastery and gets the same pips to cast Loremaster? Everyone also has high balance critical gear too. You know darn well that any spell can be used by any school, that doesn't mean that the natural school doesn't have a huge advantage using it over off school casters.
Ok, wow, you considered my postings a “piece of writing that incites anger or violence”. Sorry, I didn’t consider it a rant, but more of a posting that is trying to state that a word should follow it’s definition. Plus, it was applied with a healthy dose of one being philosophically skeptical. When someone states that they have an omniscient point of view on why a spell is designed, I have to question it. Questioning someone on their posting, without it being a “rant”, is ok, right? Especially when KI write and designs what they feel is a balanced game and they are the only one that knows what the statistics are.
I understand you get quite upset when reading my post, but please reread it a few times to fully understand want I am trying to say. I may be a bit direct or blunt, but I am not attacking, just questioning.

Anyway, to answer your direct posting, yes, a ton of players have the Balance Mastery. Maybe not everyone, but based on the amount of Pack gear I see, if most people wanted it, they could buy it. I had two of them dropped, and I didn’t even want them.
Even as of today, I have never used them, and would have much have preferred a few Life Amulets.
Hence my point to Eric, I am seeing a ton of Universal High damage and critical gear from the packs. This new Universal gear gives any wizard with the Amulet, the same advantage as the natural wizard. Do I have the actual statics of how many have this gear or the Amulet, the answer is simply “No”. Although, I will say, the packs are there for all, just as the Amulets, and LoreMaster.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Sep 24, 2014 wrote:
Let me make sure I get this right, the definition of OverPowered changes to meet your
requirements, based on your definition of what a spell should be... ok, got it.

So the above two rules have to be followed by KI exactly, and cannot be altered to
add a benefit to a school that needs help?

Since you have no idea what the real numbers are, and only KI does, you are making
an assumption, and you know what that means?

Have you noticed how much gear is being sold in the Packs that has huge universal
resist, damage, etc? I have seen many players use LoreMaster very, very effectively,
with massive damage. I would agree with you, if only Balance had this spell, but
anyone can craft this spell. Therefore, if the spell is overpowered, then everyone
has an overpowered spell, so it makes little difference.

I was hit by a Fire last night, that did about 2600 with a Loremaster last night.
So, it can be a pretty universal spell, and if Overpowered according to your terms,
give everyone the exact same benefit.

The fact is, KI can change the rules to fit what they need, to compensate for and adjust
for what they see in the data they have. Since you have never seen this data,
you are making a statement that may or may not really be valid. Therefore, I see it that
KI has make a spell that is "needed" for Balance (and other schools), and therefore is
not overpowered at all. Btw, how many Balance Wizards at 95 to 100 do you have?
Actually the characteristics of spells arent something ive invented. Anyone who has done any kind of analysis of spells will come to the exact same conclusion. This is because the design is inherent to the spells as the numerous examples i gave you have demonstrated. This is why when a spell defies these norms we describe it as overpowered or underpowered. Its the same analysis of spells that led to the buffing of spells such as collossus, spinysaur and the nerfing of spells such guardian spirit. I have no idea what "real numbers" that ki has that you are referring to. Regardless, loremaster defies the norms as expounded in the game and as demonstratably inherent in spell design which is why we the player categorize it as overpowered. Whether KI has a reason for making this spell overpowered based on its own rules is unknown to any player but DOES NOT change the fact that the spell is overpowered.

So according to you, there is no real difference between a balance wizard who can use this spell with his balanced stat gear and free use of amulet slot and another school who must use expensive stat restrictive gear and a balance mastery?

Whether KI created this spell to meet a percieved "need" has no bearing on my argument. I am not arguing about why loremaster is how it is. My argument is centered on the fact that loremaster is overpowered based on ki's demonstatable spell design rules which loremaster clearly and demonstratably defies.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Sep 25, 2014 wrote:
Ok, wow, you considered my postings a “piece of writing that incites anger or violence”. Sorry, I didn’t consider it a rant, but more of a posting that is trying to state that a word should follow it’s definition. Plus, it was applied with a healthy dose of one being philosophically skeptical. When someone states that they have an omniscient point of view on why a spell is designed, I have to question it. Questioning someone on their posting, without it being a “rant”, is ok, right? Especially when KI write and designs what they feel is a balanced game and they are the only one that knows what the statistics are.
I understand you get quite upset when reading my post, but please reread it a few times to fully understand want I am trying to say. I may be a bit direct or blunt, but I am not attacking, just questioning.

Anyway, to answer your direct posting, yes, a ton of players have the Balance Mastery. Maybe not everyone, but based on the amount of Pack gear I see, if most people wanted it, they could buy it. I had two of them dropped, and I didn’t even want them.
Even as of today, I have never used them, and would have much have preferred a few Life Amulets.
Hence my point to Eric, I am seeing a ton of Universal High damage and critical gear from the packs. This new Universal gear gives any wizard with the Amulet, the same advantage as the natural wizard. Do I have the actual statics of how many have this gear or the Amulet, the answer is simply “No”. Although, I will say, the packs are there for all, just as the Amulets, and LoreMaster.
Lets get something straight right now. I never claimed any "omniscient view of why a spell is designed" In fact NONE of my arguments even ATTEMPT to explain why loremaster is the way it is. The only one attempting to justify loremaster is you. If you wish to attack a strawman be my guest but kindly don't put words in my mouth.

To address your argument. A spell is no longer overpowered if eveyone can use the spell with pack gear? So a spell is only overpowered if one school has access to it regardless of the spells characteristics...got ya.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Sep 24, 2014 wrote:
While Loremaster does more damage per pip than most Balance spells and leaves 2 after effects, you can see lots of Balance spells slipping under the average damage line. Ra does less damage per pip than almost any spell in the game and costs 8 pips. That's 70 damage per pip, which is pretty weak. Ice, the weakest damage school in the game, does 95 damage per pip with Snow Angel. Storm, Fire and Myth still have level 48 spells that are better than Ra. After Ra came Chimera, a spell that does 113 damage per pip. Myth got a spell that does 127 damage per pip, is very hard to shield, and stuns the opponent. It's called Basilisk. Then Balance's next attack; Sabertooth. 1000-1100 damage, which is 100-111 damage per pip and leaves a Spirit Shield, which 57% of the time is useless (4 of 7 schools are not Spirit schools). Fire got a spell that does more damage than Sabertooth (nearly as much on the initial hit) and 300 damage to all enemies. If AoE's are supposed to be weaker than one enemy attacks, Sun Serpent breaks that law perfectly.

On top of that, Myth got a very overpowered version of King Artorius. 133 damage per pip, hard to shield because it's a DoT, removes an enemy's shield, and puts a 10% Mythspear on yourself.

Now let's compare Donate Power and Power Play to other school's spells. Donate Power is useless in 1v1, use 3 pips to gain 2 pips. Not so much of a great idea. What did other schools get at level 33? Storm got Darkwind, Fire got Phoenix, Ice got Balefrost, Death got Doom and Gloom, Life got Centaur, Myth got Minotaur. All those spells are useful, but Balance got a useless spell. Then what's next? Power Play. A spell that boosts everybody's power pip chance for your 4 pips, which is the worst bubble in the game. Nobody ever uses it for PvE or PvP, that's how useless it is.

My final point right now is that all schools can use Loremaster freely. At level 50, you can use a Balance Mastery Amulet, have the same Balance damage boost as any other Grandmaster Balance wizard, and you can use spells from your own school too. Loremaster helps all schools, not just Balance.
Im glad you bought up Ra because i recenty analyzed that spell. Ra does 75 dpp compared to the 69 dpp sandstorm and 67 dpp power nova. As can be seen Ra is an above average AOE for balance and perfectly acceptable. Snow angel does above average dpp because it is a dot, alo consistent with spell design norms. Chimera does above dpp for balance. Sun serpent is a single hit attack with an aoe after effect and once again falls within expected dpp for that school. Same with basilisk and myth king artorious.
Finally every school has useless spells. How does this justify an overpowered spell?

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 25, 2014 wrote:
Actually the characteristics of spells arent something ive invented. Anyone who has done any kind of analysis of spells will come to the exact same conclusion. This is because the design is inherent to the spells as the numerous examples i gave you have demonstrated. This is why when a spell defies these norms we describe it as overpowered or underpowered. Its the same analysis of spells that led to the buffing of spells such as collossus, spinysaur and the nerfing of spells such guardian spirit. I have no idea what "real numbers" that ki has that you are referring to. Regardless, loremaster defies the norms as expounded in the game and as demonstratably inherent in spell design which is why we the player categorize it as overpowered. Whether KI has a reason for making this spell overpowered based on its own rules is unknown to any player but DOES NOT change the fact that the spell is overpowered.

So according to you, there is no real difference between a balance wizard who can use this spell with his balanced stat gear and free use of amulet slot and another school who must use expensive stat restrictive gear and a balance mastery?

Whether KI created this spell to meet a percieved "need" has no bearing on my argument. I am not arguing about why loremaster is how it is. My argument is centered on the fact that loremaster is overpowered based on ki's demonstatable spell design rules which loremaster clearly and demonstratably defies.
Hi Eric,
I think we are standing back to back, looking in different directions on this discussion. Let me first address your statement “when a spell defies these norms”, as it is the heart of our discussion. To me, your saying that all spells meet a calculated Norm, and that if it falls out of this norm, it’s outside of the allowable range. Hence, it is called “Overpowered” and that term is acceptable. Second, you state “ki's demonstatable spell design rules”, and again I disagree. What I am saying is this “KI does not have any demonstatable rules, others and you have generated them. You have taken the Spells and generated a set of Norms/rules, but these are not KI’s rules. To me, it’s as if you set up a set of rules that KI needs to follow, and if they step outside of the general rules, it’s wrong. This is where I disagree with you and anyone else that attempts to state that LoreMaster is OP based on a set of frabricated rules. If KI nerfs LoreMaster, then it is considered Overpowered, and not until then.

On the second issue,
“So according to you, there is no real difference between a balance wizard who can use this spell with his balanced stat gear and free use of amulet slot and another school who must use expensive stat restrictive gear and a balance mastery?”
If you have looked in detail at the new pack gear, and the stats, then you can see the advantage it give. The real difference is slight imo, as when an off school can maintain excellent specs and hit with over 70 damage on an off school, it’s not bad. As I’ve stated, even a top member of Duelist101 is using this setup at the upper levels.

On the "omniscient view”, that was how I perceived it, when someone generates a imaginary set of rules, that KI has never acknowledged or generated. If that offended you, I do very much apologize, it was a rushed reply to Sethe42 who often seems to enjoy attacking me.

On you not being my personal stawman, that does upset me a great deal, but I will do everything I can, to live past this. Just kidding, but I will try to be more careful in what I state and the way I state it, in the future.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 26, 2014 wrote:
Im glad you bought up Ra because i recenty analyzed that spell. Ra does 75 dpp compared to the 69 dpp sandstorm and 67 dpp power nova. As can be seen Ra is an above average AOE for balance and perfectly acceptable. Snow angel does above average dpp because it is a dot, alo consistent with spell design norms. Chimera does above dpp for balance. Sun serpent is a single hit attack with an aoe after effect and once again falls within expected dpp for that school. Same with basilisk and myth king artorious.
Finally every school has useless spells. How does this justify an overpowered spell?
In my opinion, Ra is way too underpowered for its pip cost and lack of easy blade stacking for the spell. I know that Snow Angel is a DoT and that DoT's do more than base hits, but I don't think it should be that way. DoT's are much harder to defend against and if second, Triage will almost never work for you unless you try to take a guess. The reason why Chimera is above Balance's normal dpp is because more than likely, at least 2 of the hits will be shielded. Ra's minimum damage is 70 per pip and the highest is 80 damage per pip. Since we're talking about 1v1, Efreet does 111 damage per pip and leaves a 90% Weakness. That's about Fire's dpp and puts a massive Weakness on the opponent. If Efreet is overpowered, how is Loremaster? Loremaster does 97-117 damage per pip (huge chance to do less than Efreet's damage per pip) and leaves a tolerable Weakness. Efreet's Weakness divides a spell's damage by 10 while Loremaster's Weakness divides a spell's damage by 5. Seems pretty fair to me.

The reason why I keep bringing up the useless spells that Balance has is because other schools gain massive advantages while Balance often lags behind those schools. No other school in the game has a spell received from their teacher that is absolutely useless. So in return, Loremaster and Savage Paw came out to help Balance play in today's meta. Try playing Balance without Mana Burn, Savage Paw, Supernova or Loremaster, it's very difficult.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 25, 2014 wrote:
Actually the characteristics of spells arent something ive invented. Anyone who has done any kind of analysis of spells will come to the exact same conclusion. This is because the design is inherent to the spells as the numerous examples i gave you have demonstrated. This is why when a spell defies these norms we describe it as overpowered or underpowered. Its the same analysis of spells that led to the buffing of spells such as collossus, spinysaur and the nerfing of spells such guardian spirit. I have no idea what "real numbers" that ki has that you are referring to. Regardless, loremaster defies the norms as expounded in the game and as demonstratably inherent in spell design which is why we the player categorize it as overpowered. Whether KI has a reason for making this spell overpowered based on its own rules is unknown to any player but DOES NOT change the fact that the spell is overpowered.

So according to you, there is no real difference between a balance wizard who can use this spell with his balanced stat gear and free use of amulet slot and another school who must use expensive stat restrictive gear and a balance mastery?

Whether KI created this spell to meet a percieved "need" has no bearing on my argument. I am not arguing about why loremaster is how it is. My argument is centered on the fact that loremaster is overpowered based on ki's demonstatable spell design rules which loremaster clearly and demonstratably defies.
Hi Eric,

Maybe I should have stated this in the beginning, which may have explained why I so disagree with
the idea of comparing each and every spell. Plus, why I feel that it really has little bearing in the
pvp side.

Since the beginning of this game, you can fizzle, get white Power pips, a pet may be active or not,
you may have a bad shuffle or a good shuffle, etc, etc.
It's a game of chance, and PvP is much like a chess game blended with the luck of a game of cards.
I have always felt that KI intended it to be just like this.

Envision seven cones standing on their small ends. Each cone is divided into 10 linear sections.
The cones can grow one more section at a time, as needed. The bottom section holds far less than
the top section. The spells/gear are the liquid that fill each section. A "human hand" places the liquid
in each cone, trying to stop all of them at level 10. Because each spell/gear is different, the levels
are not perfect, but as close as it can be. Now, at a later time, the cones are filled
to level 20, and again the levels are even more slightly uneven. So when the level is filled to 30,
they may have to put more into one/two to bring them all up to a closer level. Still, they may not be
perfect until a later point (maybe level 200 or 400?).
I'm sure that there are better ways to present this, but I do not have your command of the English Language.

This is exactly what I see W101 doing, at each level with the spells/gear. Some spells/gear have
always been more potent than others, and may have filled the cone slightly higher at certain levels.

For this reason, I feel that you have to look at the Gear, the spells, utility spells, etc all at the same
time. Looking at one spell, I feel is almost meaningless, unless it makes the cones clearly
unbalanced (as Wild Bolt did at one time).

(Also, I have noted all my past spelling errors, please ignore them the best you can).

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
PvP King on Sep 23, 2014 wrote:
There is no doubt that Balance is an easy school to play, I'll give everybody that. You have room to waste training points on some not very important spells that other schools don't get for free (Availing Hands instead of Satyr, Weakness is free, Reshuffle is free, etc.). They get nice 50% shields to all Elemental and Spirit schools, and a 25% debuff for fighting Balance. They also get the advantage of having a much higher chance to critical their own school heals. Given these advantages, there are some disadvantages that come with them. For example, since Balance, Life and Death are able to critical heals and/or drains with their main school critical rating, they have a lower critical rating than the other schools. Where is Storm more "overpowered"? Storm has the highest critical rating plus the highest heal per pip and damage per pip spells in the game. Healing Current has a chance of healing 333.33 per pip and Wild Bolt has a chance of dealing 500 damage per pip.

Some may say Balance has the bigger advantage, some may say Storm has the bigger advantage. I personally believe that most people are coming up with excuses to nerf Balance because they can't deal with Mana Burn. In some Ranked matches I've done, some people have fled because I used Mana Burn once. Sometimes the Mana Burn isn't timed well, and sometimes it's timed the turn my opponent hits. The only situation Mana Burn is good in is when you use it the turn before your opponent has enough pips to use their own overpowered spell, which more than half the time, is replaced by a lower pip version of itself (Frostbite over Snow angel for example).

If you ask me, I think Loremaster puts Balance where it deserves to be. After being voted the worst school from 2010-2012, until the Avalon release, Balance got the worst gear, the worst spells, and the worst just about everything it could get. Same thing happened with Ice, it had its reign in Zafaria through Azteca times, now it's not as potent. Death was horrible throughout 2009-2013 in PvP and now has its chance to reign in the Arena. Loremaster, Mana Burn, Supernova, Savage Paw, take those away and Balance is back to using Locust Swarm as its hammer attack. That's what people need to understand; Balance only sticks to those spells because its other spells are inexcusably useless. Donate Power and Power Play, 2 joke spells for PvP.

Some people also said Availing Hands heals too much. Well, there's a spell that Ice wizards have called Snow Drift. It makes healing against Ice not only useless, but helps them for your pips. Not only that, but one of the best amulets in the game gives the spell with it. I wouldn't say Balance is overpowered, KingsIsle did a nice job Balancing it right in the meta with gear and spells. Nearly everything counters Balance perfectly, the only thing that isn't given free is skill.
PvP King,

On your statement:
" I personally believe that most people are coming up with excuses to nerf Balance because they
can't deal with Mana Burn."

I agree, first it was a nerf on Mana Burn, then it was a nerf on Super Nova, and now it's a nerf
on LoreMaster. Before that, everyone screamed that Judge needed to be nerfed.
KI didn't nerf even one of them, because it wasn't needed, and to this day is still not needed.
That's why I have been so vocal, as I see it as just another attack on Balance.

I don't just PvP Balance, I also have a Storm 100, Myth 100, Ice 100 and Death at level 90.
I also have low level Myth, Fire and Balance in the 5 to 50 range.
(As a misc note, I have yet to get a pet with talents that I want, just don't like bringing them up).
I fight plenty of Balance and just adjust my game for that wizard, as I adjust for when I play
against a Storm, Death, Life with Guardian Spirit, etc, etc.

I absolutely agree with your statement that KI has done a nice job balancing PvP. I think that is
what they try to do at each spell and gear release, trying to get it closer each time.

On you last statement about skill not being free, any chance I barrow some from you...

Survivor
May 12, 2009
49
Veracity8 on Sep 15, 2014 wrote:
I understand that you are looking at a larger quantity of numbers on the
leaderboards, but when you have a large group of one wizard that is in the
top 25, that says something, to me anyway.
Those incredibly bad stats gave that storm wizard 74 wins and only 8 loses.
Far better than me at that number of 82 wins/loses (how about you)?

Yes, Supernova is an Advantage and a disadvantage at the same time.
Once you hit warlord, the globals start showing up, and Balance does not
have a decent 2 pip global. So you lose the pip war over Globals.
Another reason why Balance so needed a spell like LoreMaster.

On ManaBurn, each players Maximum potential is based on their skill level
and how their deck is set. Yes, it can at times reduce the big hits,
but really how many players just wait, knowing they have the advantage
because they are set for Balance?
All players just pack the enhancements on the smaller hits and reshuffle,
as fast as they can. I see where it inhibits very few players at ranks
above private or so.

On the final item, stacking, as you know most just stack a zero pips blade and
an enchanted zero pip blade. For Ice, that a plus 90+ before the hit.
If I weakness of any type, it’s a delay, nothing more.
When they can keep their blades, and I can’t, it's a disadvantage.
If I bad Juju, I take a bigger self hit when I have blades up, I
also see that as a disadvantage.

Yes, Balance may have higher presents on the Boards, but that is because there
are so many of them. Balance has exploded in the last two worlds.
Where I seldom saw a Balance in the worlds before, now I see plenty of them
all over. Hence the huge presents on the boards, but it’s not because they
are over-powered.
Not to mention the number of players that are using Global Damage stats and
using LoreMaster also. I have seen this done very effectively by one on the
Duelest101 team.

Anyway, I see the whole Balance being overpowered, pretty much as a popular
belief (or fairy tale), that has been crafted for enjoyable reading for those
who would believe it.
btw eric is one of the duelists on duelist101

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Sep 26, 2014 wrote:
Hi Eric,
I think we are standing back to back, looking in different directions on this discussion. Let me first address your statement “when a spell defies these norms”, as it is the heart of our discussion. To me, your saying that all spells meet a calculated Norm, and that if it falls out of this norm, it’s outside of the allowable range. Hence, it is called “Overpowered” and that term is acceptable. Second, you state “ki's demonstatable spell design rules”, and again I disagree. What I am saying is this “KI does not have any demonstatable rules, others and you have generated them. You have taken the Spells and generated a set of Norms/rules, but these are not KI’s rules. To me, it’s as if you set up a set of rules that KI needs to follow, and if they step outside of the general rules, it’s wrong. This is where I disagree with you and anyone else that attempts to state that LoreMaster is OP based on a set of frabricated rules. If KI nerfs LoreMaster, then it is considered Overpowered, and not until then.

On the second issue,
“So according to you, there is no real difference between a balance wizard who can use this spell with his balanced stat gear and free use of amulet slot and another school who must use expensive stat restrictive gear and a balance mastery?”
If you have looked in detail at the new pack gear, and the stats, then you can see the advantage it give. The real difference is slight imo, as when an off school can maintain excellent specs and hit with over 70 damage on an off school, it’s not bad. As I’ve stated, even a top member of Duelist101 is using this setup at the upper levels.

On the "omniscient view”, that was how I perceived it, when someone generates a imaginary set of rules, that KI has never acknowledged or generated. If that offended you, I do very much apologize, it was a rushed reply to Sethe42 who often seems to enjoy attacking me.

On you not being my personal stawman, that does upset me a great deal, but I will do everything I can, to live past this. Just kidding, but I will try to be more careful in what I state and the way I state it, in the future.
This is the crux of the argument. I did not fabricate these rules. These rules are based on careful analysis of every spell in the game and their design. I am not sure how you can state that these rules are not demonstratable when i just demonstrated them to you with numerous spell examples. This is why spells such as loremaster which defy the norm stand out. You seem to believe that the only time a spell should be considered overpowered is when ki nerfs it. My arguments demonstrate why loremaster is out of the norm and attempt to justify why the spell should be nerfed. Once again i am not sure how you can say these rules are not ki's rules when ki's spells conform to these rules.

Are you honestly stating to me that you see no real difference between a balance wizard who has full access to his balanced stat school specific gear and another school who must use universal pack gear and a mastery amulet?

An "imaginary set of rules?" So i just pulled thes rules out of a hat with no supporting evidence from numerous spell design examples? According to you these rules are not easily demonstrated by looking back at the way spells are designed and the way they are implemented? So according to you KI follows no spell design rules that are discernable by the players, the spells just happen to coincidentally conform to the aforementioned norms?

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Sep 26, 2014 wrote:
In my opinion, Ra is way too underpowered for its pip cost and lack of easy blade stacking for the spell. I know that Snow Angel is a DoT and that DoT's do more than base hits, but I don't think it should be that way. DoT's are much harder to defend against and if second, Triage will almost never work for you unless you try to take a guess. The reason why Chimera is above Balance's normal dpp is because more than likely, at least 2 of the hits will be shielded. Ra's minimum damage is 70 per pip and the highest is 80 damage per pip. Since we're talking about 1v1, Efreet does 111 damage per pip and leaves a 90% Weakness. That's about Fire's dpp and puts a massive Weakness on the opponent. If Efreet is overpowered, how is Loremaster? Loremaster does 97-117 damage per pip (huge chance to do less than Efreet's damage per pip) and leaves a tolerable Weakness. Efreet's Weakness divides a spell's damage by 10 while Loremaster's Weakness divides a spell's damage by 5. Seems pretty fair to me.

The reason why I keep bringing up the useless spells that Balance has is because other schools gain massive advantages while Balance often lags behind those schools. No other school in the game has a spell received from their teacher that is absolutely useless. So in return, Loremaster and Savage Paw came out to help Balance play in today's meta. Try playing Balance without Mana Burn, Savage Paw, Supernova or Loremaster, it's very difficult.
I just showed you the numbers that demonstrate that Ra is the highest dpp balance aoe and thus is well within norms and thus not underpowered at all. Are you denying the math? Also whether you feel dots should or should not deal above dpp it is a demonstatable rule in wizard 101 spell design and thus snow angel remains consistent. Efreet is also consistent with the rules of high pip cost justifying powerful effects with normal dpp such as in the case of gnomes, lord of winter, sabertooth etc. Loremaster on the other hand is low cost, above dpp and has 2 additional effects in clear defiance of wizard 101 established norms.

Every school in the game recieves spells that are useless, balance is not unique in this aspect. I do agree that powerplay should be reviewed and buffed(i even made a thread with a suggested fix) however poor past spell design does not justify overpowered spells. As far as i know, no one is asking for the spells you cited to be taken away from balance what i specifically desire is for loremaster to be rebalanced to be within expected spell norms.

Survivor
May 12, 2009
49
PvP King on Sep 24, 2014 wrote:
While Loremaster does more damage per pip than most Balance spells and leaves 2 after effects, you can see lots of Balance spells slipping under the average damage line. Ra does less damage per pip than almost any spell in the game and costs 8 pips. That's 70 damage per pip, which is pretty weak. Ice, the weakest damage school in the game, does 95 damage per pip with Snow Angel. Storm, Fire and Myth still have level 48 spells that are better than Ra. After Ra came Chimera, a spell that does 113 damage per pip. Myth got a spell that does 127 damage per pip, is very hard to shield, and stuns the opponent. It's called Basilisk. Then Balance's next attack; Sabertooth. 1000-1100 damage, which is 100-111 damage per pip and leaves a Spirit Shield, which 57% of the time is useless (4 of 7 schools are not Spirit schools). Fire got a spell that does more damage than Sabertooth (nearly as much on the initial hit) and 300 damage to all enemies. If AoE's are supposed to be weaker than one enemy attacks, Sun Serpent breaks that law perfectly.

On top of that, Myth got a very overpowered version of King Artorius. 133 damage per pip, hard to shield because it's a DoT, removes an enemy's shield, and puts a 10% Mythspear on yourself.

Now let's compare Donate Power and Power Play to other school's spells. Donate Power is useless in 1v1, use 3 pips to gain 2 pips. Not so much of a great idea. What did other schools get at level 33? Storm got Darkwind, Fire got Phoenix, Ice got Balefrost, Death got Doom and Gloom, Life got Centaur, Myth got Minotaur. All those spells are useful, but Balance got a useless spell. Then what's next? Power Play. A spell that boosts everybody's power pip chance for your 4 pips, which is the worst bubble in the game. Nobody ever uses it for PvE or PvP, that's how useless it is.

My final point right now is that all schools can use Loremaster freely. At level 50, you can use a Balance Mastery Amulet, have the same Balance damage boost as any other Grandmaster Balance wizard, and you can use spells from your own school too. Loremaster helps all schools, not just Balance.
first off ra is an AOE so its damage should be lower second forest lord does less third off the reason snow angel does more is cause its a damage overtime. Myths spells are naturally supposed to do more damage then balance spells as its higher on the damage spectrum also basilisk is a dot and dots generally speaking have higher damage per pip. Chimera is extremely underrated and has higher damage per pip then the average balance spell plus is hard to shield because it hits 3 times so one tower shield really isnt gonna get in the way all that much. Ra does so little cause it hits all at once and is an AOE. Sun serpent isnt really an Aoe to consider it that it would have to do the same damage to all enemies and it certainly does not do that it does 300 to all but 900-1000 to one enemy. Balance has abilities to control the game like no other school can. They can deny you access to infallible/fortify/conviction/etc witch are key spells in pvp witch you can't use effectively against balance. Mana burn is a spell that costs 3 pips to take away 3 pips except will get rid of any weaknesses shields etc on you while dealing potentially very high damage. The ability to deny players pips when many many many strategies rely on pip building is completely unfair. Loremaster is about 110 damage per pip plus 2 after affects, brimstone revenant is about the same damage per pip but with no side effects. Krampus is 81 damage per pip with 1 side effect and not to mention fire is a higher damage per pip school then balance by quite a bit, if thats not proof enough i dont know what is

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 27, 2014 wrote:
I just showed you the numbers that demonstrate that Ra is the highest dpp balance aoe and thus is well within norms and thus not underpowered at all. Are you denying the math? Also whether you feel dots should or should not deal above dpp it is a demonstatable rule in wizard 101 spell design and thus snow angel remains consistent. Efreet is also consistent with the rules of high pip cost justifying powerful effects with normal dpp such as in the case of gnomes, lord of winter, sabertooth etc. Loremaster on the other hand is low cost, above dpp and has 2 additional effects in clear defiance of wizard 101 established norms.

Every school in the game recieves spells that are useless, balance is not unique in this aspect. I do agree that powerplay should be reviewed and buffed(i even made a thread with a suggested fix) however poor past spell design does not justify overpowered spells. As far as i know, no one is asking for the spells you cited to be taken away from balance what i specifically desire is for loremaster to be rebalanced to be within expected spell norms.
If you're bringing up "rules for spells", then let me give you another rule. The higher the pip cost, the higher the dpp right? Well let's compare these spells: Meteor Strike + Power Link, Sandstorm + Loremaster. Meteor strike does 76-86 dpp and hits all enemies. Power Link has a higher dpp since it targets one enemy (98 dpp) and heals 70 health per pip. It deals more damage, gives a second effect of healing, having 2 added specials for it being a DoT and HoT, making it spammable so it's hard to Triage/Shift off, and it's a very effective spell. Its initial hit is weaker than the main one so even if you have a shield up the DoT is bound to hurt. Now let's compare that with Sandstorm and Loremaster. Sandstorm does 63 dpp to 73 dpp and has the benefit of hitting all enemies. Loremaster does 97-117 dpp, leaves a 20% Weakness, a 35% accuracy debuff, and is far easier to shield than Power Link. If your rules should be the base of all spells, does that mean Power Link deserves a nerf too? I mean it's higher than Fire's normal dpp and leaves 2 after effects just like Loremaster, should that be fixed? In addition to that, Loremaster is farmed or insanely hard to craft, or a rare reward from packs.

Now back to your point on Ra. Yes, it does follow Balance's dpp trend, but that's not how it's supposed to go. The higher the pip cost, the higher the dpp. Power Nova does nearly as much as Ra and leaves an after effect behind.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Sep 26, 2014 wrote:
Hi Eric,

Maybe I should have stated this in the beginning, which may have explained why I so disagree with
the idea of comparing each and every spell. Plus, why I feel that it really has little bearing in the
pvp side.

Since the beginning of this game, you can fizzle, get white Power pips, a pet may be active or not,
you may have a bad shuffle or a good shuffle, etc, etc.
It's a game of chance, and PvP is much like a chess game blended with the luck of a game of cards.
I have always felt that KI intended it to be just like this.

Envision seven cones standing on their small ends. Each cone is divided into 10 linear sections.
The cones can grow one more section at a time, as needed. The bottom section holds far less than
the top section. The spells/gear are the liquid that fill each section. A "human hand" places the liquid
in each cone, trying to stop all of them at level 10. Because each spell/gear is different, the levels
are not perfect, but as close as it can be. Now, at a later time, the cones are filled
to level 20, and again the levels are even more slightly uneven. So when the level is filled to 30,
they may have to put more into one/two to bring them all up to a closer level. Still, they may not be
perfect until a later point (maybe level 200 or 400?).
I'm sure that there are better ways to present this, but I do not have your command of the English Language.

This is exactly what I see W101 doing, at each level with the spells/gear. Some spells/gear have
always been more potent than others, and may have filled the cone slightly higher at certain levels.

For this reason, I feel that you have to look at the Gear, the spells, utility spells, etc all at the same
time. Looking at one spell, I feel is almost meaningless, unless it makes the cones clearly
unbalanced (as Wild Bolt did at one time).

(Also, I have noted all my past spelling errors, please ignore them the best you can).
I agree that their is an asymmetrical growth in spells. Different schools recieve different tools with different effectiveness at different times. I am not stating that schools should not have effective spells what i am saying is those spells should be well balanced. A key example is luminous weaver. It is a life spell that gave the school its first natural debuff. Its low cost ensured that it can be effectively utilized. Its a great spell and is well balanced. It perfectly conforms to spell design rules(lower dpp in exchange for an effect) and demonstrates that spells do not need to be overpowered to be highly effective.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 27, 2014 wrote:
This is the crux of the argument. I did not fabricate these rules. These rules are based on careful analysis of every spell in the game and their design. I am not sure how you can state that these rules are not demonstratable when i just demonstrated them to you with numerous spell examples. This is why spells such as loremaster which defy the norm stand out. You seem to believe that the only time a spell should be considered overpowered is when ki nerfs it. My arguments demonstrate why loremaster is out of the norm and attempt to justify why the spell should be nerfed. Once again i am not sure how you can say these rules are not ki's rules when ki's spells conform to these rules.

Are you honestly stating to me that you see no real difference between a balance wizard who has full access to his balanced stat school specific gear and another school who must use universal pack gear and a mastery amulet?

An "imaginary set of rules?" So i just pulled thes rules out of a hat with no supporting evidence from numerous spell design examples? According to you these rules are not easily demonstrated by looking back at the way spells are designed and the way they are implemented? So according to you KI follows no spell design rules that are discernable by the players, the spells just happen to coincidentally conform to the aforementioned norms?
Hi Eric,

Eric Stormbringer stated:
"Are you honestly stating to me that you see no real difference between a balance wizard who has
full access to his balanced stat school specific gear and another school who must use universal
pack gear and a mastery amulet?"

What I am stating is that it's a balance, you have better stats in certain areas, and it
equals out. Dark magic is blocked by Universal block, is it not.
I am not sure, but does Dark Magic use Universal damage also?
The design of each set of gear is for a certain function, or to give a certain deck
setup an advantage.

Eric STormbringer stated:
"So according to you KI follows no spell design rules that are discernable by the players,
the spells just happen to coincidentally conform to the aforementioned norms?"

What I am saying is that, KI does not have to conform to these rules if they see an
issue. They can change the rules as needed to correct problems, etc. You seem
to be saying, "Hey, they have incorrectly designed this Spell, they can do that".
I am saying, on the other hand, they designed it this way for a reason unknown to
you.

Please see my posting above, which should explain my point of view in more detail.
"Hi Eric,
Maybe I should have stated this in the beginning, which may have explained why I so disagree
with the idea of comparing each and every spell. Plus, why I feel that it really has little
bearing in the pvp side.................."

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
William Dawncloud on Sep 27, 2014 wrote:
btw eric is one of the duelists on duelist101
Hi William,

Thanks, I stopped over there (which I seldom do go to Duelist or to Central), and did read
some of this articles. That did help me understand his point of view better.

Survivor
May 12, 2009
49
PvP King on Sep 26, 2014 wrote:
In my opinion, Ra is way too underpowered for its pip cost and lack of easy blade stacking for the spell. I know that Snow Angel is a DoT and that DoT's do more than base hits, but I don't think it should be that way. DoT's are much harder to defend against and if second, Triage will almost never work for you unless you try to take a guess. The reason why Chimera is above Balance's normal dpp is because more than likely, at least 2 of the hits will be shielded. Ra's minimum damage is 70 per pip and the highest is 80 damage per pip. Since we're talking about 1v1, Efreet does 111 damage per pip and leaves a 90% Weakness. That's about Fire's dpp and puts a massive Weakness on the opponent. If Efreet is overpowered, how is Loremaster? Loremaster does 97-117 damage per pip (huge chance to do less than Efreet's damage per pip) and leaves a tolerable Weakness. Efreet's Weakness divides a spell's damage by 10 while Loremaster's Weakness divides a spell's damage by 5. Seems pretty fair to me.

The reason why I keep bringing up the useless spells that Balance has is because other schools gain massive advantages while Balance often lags behind those schools. No other school in the game has a spell received from their teacher that is absolutely useless. So in return, Loremaster and Savage Paw came out to help Balance play in today's meta. Try playing Balance without Mana Burn, Savage Paw, Supernova or Loremaster, it's very difficult.
about your last remark
try playing fire without efreet, power link, krampus or fire elf, its almost impossible
this can be said with just about all schools theres normally a few core spells that contribute to were the school stands and balance happened to get some of the best spells to make up its core and btw trust me i'm not hating on balance in my posts cause i have a balance of my own that i have loremaster and paw on (lvl 61) but it is certainly one of the easiest schools to play

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 27, 2014 wrote:
I agree that their is an asymmetrical growth in spells. Different schools recieve different tools with different effectiveness at different times. I am not stating that schools should not have effective spells what i am saying is those spells should be well balanced. A key example is luminous weaver. It is a life spell that gave the school its first natural debuff. Its low cost ensured that it can be effectively utilized. Its a great spell and is well balanced. It perfectly conforms to spell design rules(lower dpp in exchange for an effect) and demonstrates that spells do not need to be overpowered to be highly effective.
Eric,

I don't fee the spells themselves have to be balanced, it's the overall growth and balance
of each Wizard that is important, not the spells themselves.

I agree, with Life's other spells, Guardian Spirit, Spinysaur (for 1350 a huge hit for Life),
Gnomest (sp?) and it's double life dispel, are excellent spells. Plus when added to Life's ability
to outheal anyone if the game, this Wizard becomes extremely hard to bring down.
Take all of them into consideration, plus add in the excellent gear (with excellent Accuracy and pips),
and you have a Wizard that can stand toe to toe with any Wizard in the game.

I feel that you can do this same thing with any Wizard in the game.

Exactly my point, each wizard with all the tools, gear, etc, are very close to being balanced.
How can I say this, just watch any high level match in Ranked. When you see two different
Wizards (Life and Fire, Death and Life, Ice and Fire, Storm and anyone, Balance and Storm,
etc, and when they come down to 400 life versus 600 life for the final round, that tells me
the game is darn close to being balanced.

Some can look at Ice and say, well they seem under-Powered, if you look at them this way.
Where I feel the stuns for Ice and Myth give a huge advantage, they can be game changers
very quickly.

Again, I have to believe that with Balance inability to stack natural blades or Traps,
having no DOT, etc as PvPKing has stated, they have enough weakness to require
LoreMaster. Their shields may cover three schools, but they are only 50%, and with Dark
Magic, that's not good. Plus you have schools (some do need the amulet) that can steal
it's heals. Once a heal has been taken, the Balance has lost pips and a heal, and often can't
recover. Not to mention the number of players that are now setting for Balance, even Balance
is doing it.
Plus the heals are over time, which means if we get into trouble, it's much harder for
use to get out of it. We have to heal early, taking away any advantage we may have
had.
I really have to say, contrary to all the hype, that Balance needs a OP attack
(as it has been termed) to keep even with the other schools. All schools can
adjust to Mana Burn and to Super Nova, which makes them situational in almost
every fight. Example, try using Mana Burn from second, you can lose five pips,
and do absolutely no damage. Even from first, the other wizard can still use their pips
after you have taken them. Plus, this spells become even less effective, with the
number of dispels that everyone carries for Balance.
I won't even start to go into how many times I have been displelled this
weekend (but that's a different issue).

(Please note, I did use the term OP attack, I may be sick for days now... )

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Sep 27, 2014 wrote:
If you're bringing up "rules for spells", then let me give you another rule. The higher the pip cost, the higher the dpp right? Well let's compare these spells: Meteor Strike + Power Link, Sandstorm + Loremaster. Meteor strike does 76-86 dpp and hits all enemies. Power Link has a higher dpp since it targets one enemy (98 dpp) and heals 70 health per pip. It deals more damage, gives a second effect of healing, having 2 added specials for it being a DoT and HoT, making it spammable so it's hard to Triage/Shift off, and it's a very effective spell. Its initial hit is weaker than the main one so even if you have a shield up the DoT is bound to hurt. Now let's compare that with Sandstorm and Loremaster. Sandstorm does 63 dpp to 73 dpp and has the benefit of hitting all enemies. Loremaster does 97-117 dpp, leaves a 20% Weakness, a 35% accuracy debuff, and is far easier to shield than Power Link. If your rules should be the base of all spells, does that mean Power Link deserves a nerf too? I mean it's higher than Fire's normal dpp and leaves 2 after effects just like Loremaster, should that be fixed? In addition to that, Loremaster is farmed or insanely hard to craft, or a rare reward from packs.

Now back to your point on Ra. Yes, it does follow Balance's dpp trend, but that's not how it's supposed to go. The higher the pip cost, the higher the dpp. Power Nova does nearly as much as Ra and leaves an after effect behind.
Glad you bought up Link/Power Link because those are more examples of great spells that are well balanced. Power Link is a 4 pip spell with one added effect(a heal over time). Its damage per pip is actually below fire's average for single target attack spells which confirms perfectly to sacrificing dpp for an effect.(The average is perfectly represented with brimstone revenant which is 110 dpp). It also has a higher dpp than krampus which is a fire spell with an effect which also conforms it to the rules of spell design in which DoTs have a higher dpp than single target spells. As you can see Power Link is actually perfectly balanced, unlike loremaster.

Ra as I have already demonstrated follows the rules: The higher the pip cost the higher the dpp. Sandstorm deals 69 dpp. Power Nova deals 67 dpp(conforms to the rules of sacrificing dpp for an effect). Ra deals 75 dpp conforming to a higher dpp for higher pip cost spell. That is exactly how it should be, Ra is a perfectly balanced spell.