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Who is OP in PVP, not Balance for sure.

AuthorMessage
Defender
Jun 29, 2014
144
PvP King on Sep 10, 2014 wrote:
Balance is the hardest school to play in the higher ranks of PvP. Every match I did in the past few weeks I had people set for me, and with no viable way of stacking blades and traps to make an efficient OHKO, Balance is an extremely hard school to win with against a setter. On Duelist101, there is a post regarding the same ideas where two people argued about Balance. http://www.duelist101.com/other-articles/duelist-discussions-can-ki-balance-meta/
Corwin ShadowForge made an argument down in the comments that Balance isn't overpowered and brought up the same points you did. There is absolutely no main card spell where Balance can defend from Dark Nova, traps, or even recover their health all at once. People can argue that Balance wizards can use treasure cards but those are only good until your first Reshuffle where you run out of treasure cards. He also compared Balance to other school's spells and said that there were 3 attacks that were truly "overpowered", mentioning that Supernova and Mana Burn are only situational cards whereas Guardian Spirit, Bolt, Power Link, Efreet, etc. are not. I do think personally that Fire or Myth are the most overpowered schools in this meta followed by Death with their all-new Jade strategy then Balance lies somewhere in the middle, but people being too lazy to limit their pip amount in a match is causing the mislead image that Balance is overpowered. Like I said in another post, if Balance didn't have Mana Burn, Loremaster, Supernova, or Judgement, its best attack would be a pathetic Locust Swarm, which does less than most spells on its own.
Yes! Especially the blades some people use tower shield and my opponent is full of traps themI'm going to use a wand attack and makes my traps and blades gone!

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Veracity8 on Oct 4, 2014 wrote:
PvP King,

I was thinking about this statement, and then it hit me. Everyone is complaining about the
two after effects of LoreMaster, and it's 2.5 per pip extra damage.

Then it hit me, Leviathan has two aftereffects if you think about it, it removes two blades.

Almost all the King Artorius Spells have two aftereffects.

Sirens has two aftereffects, and I question if you wouldn't call it three aftereffects.
Myth has Medusa that has two aftereffects, it stuns you for Two rounds (I've always considered it
overpowered by taking you out for tow solid rounds). Plus the double Medusa taking you would
for four rounds, and so easy to setup and do.

Almost all of the Shift spells, like Shift GreenOak, Shift Thornpaw, Shift Ogre, and Shift Suger Glider
have two aftereffect. Based on a quick look, they all appear to be overpowered also. So if your
low on the Power Pip rating, this spells can be considered overpowered also, imo.

I expect that there are more, but this is all that I can think of off the top of my head.
Anyway, to the point, LoreMaster is certainly not the only spell to have two aftereffects.
LoreMaster also has two "reduced" aftereffects, making it reasonable to add 2.5 dpp to this spell.

Power Link keeps shields off you for three rounds, and heals for three rounds, and I agree,
this should be considered two aftereffects also.

The more I think on this, the more and more I feel that LoreMaster is not really overpowered at all.

The Scarecrow. (Hey it almost Halloween, so I feel that it's fitting).
That's what I've been thinking too. Loremaster and King Artorius are Balance's only spells that leave two after effects, and what makes Loremaster even less overpowered is that its after effect doesn't stick like all the others.Unlike King Artorius from just about any school, their aftereffects stay on their opponent until they use the required spell to take it off. Loremaster on the other hand only has one aftereffect that actually sticks, the Black Mantle from it can be removed by any spell or pet action.

Now that you brought up Shift spells, something came up in my mind as well. I noticed that in many PvP situations I've been using Shift Sugar Glider more than Loremaster from second because its aftereffects stay on the opponent and I don't have to worry about getting dispelled by an opponent who sets. With a more potent Weakness than Loremaster, it adds an Infection on the opponent only at the cost of one more pip. I do believe that all schools can get spells as good (or better) than Loremaster at or near the same amount of pips, with better aftereffects.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 4, 2014 wrote:
PvP King,

I was thinking about this statement, and then it hit me. Everyone is complaining about the
two after effects of LoreMaster, and it's 2.5 per pip extra damage.

Then it hit me, Leviathan has two aftereffects if you think about it, it removes two blades.

Almost all the King Artorius Spells have two aftereffects.

Sirens has two aftereffects, and I question if you wouldn't call it three aftereffects.
Myth has Medusa that has two aftereffects, it stuns you for Two rounds (I've always considered it
overpowered by taking you out for tow solid rounds). Plus the double Medusa taking you would
for four rounds, and so easy to setup and do.

Almost all of the Shift spells, like Shift GreenOak, Shift Thornpaw, Shift Ogre, and Shift Suger Glider
have two aftereffect. Based on a quick look, they all appear to be overpowered also. So if your
low on the Power Pip rating, this spells can be considered overpowered also, imo.

I expect that there are more, but this is all that I can think of off the top of my head.
Anyway, to the point, LoreMaster is certainly not the only spell to have two aftereffects.
LoreMaster also has two "reduced" aftereffects, making it reasonable to add 2.5 dpp to this spell.

Power Link keeps shields off you for three rounds, and heals for three rounds, and I agree,
this should be considered two aftereffects also.

The more I think on this, the more and more I feel that LoreMaster is not really overpowered at all.

The Scarecrow. (Hey it almost Halloween, so I feel that it's fitting).
First of all loremaster is an average of 5.5 dpp above balances output not 2.5 as you are claiming. I assume you came up with 2.5 based on sabertooth alone which being a high powered 10 pip spell naturally has a higher dpp. This is like me comparing every other storm spell to storm owl's above average dpp(that would make every other storm spell underpowered [other than insane bolt and wild bolt when they hit 1000])

I am glad you bought up the other spells, let analyze them shall we?

Lets pretend that leviathan has 2 aftereffects(despite it being one aftereffect) its dpp is 103- below storms dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

Lets look at sirens(which was deservedly nerfed in test realm) its dpp is 98- on par with storm aoe dpp(and below loremasters dpp)

Lets also pretend that medusa is 2 aftereffects(because it takes 2 stun shields...oh wait) its dpp is 96-on par with myth's dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

Lets look at balance King Artorious its dpp is 91- on par with balances dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

The shift spells would be overpowered(100% accuracy and increased dpp)...if they used power pips. However they don't and as such are underpowered.

Lets also pretend that power link and all DoT's are aftereffects despite what the game itself says: its dpp is 99- below fires dpp(and below loremasters dpp)

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 2, 2014 wrote:
The fact that Spectral Blast does Elemental damage does not matter. Hydra does Elemental damage, why doesn't it do nearly a thousand like Triton? It does just a little less than the peak of Colossus, 570 damage. It hits Ice, Fire, and Storm, but doesn't function the same way your "rule for Spectral Blast" works. An example of multi hit spells not having reduced damage is by looking at Minotaur and Orthrus. Orthrus does 700 damage (30 less than Stormzilla's max), so you can't say that Hydra does lower damage because it hits 3 times. So if your analysis is supposed to be accurate that Spectral Blast does more damage because it hits Elemental schools, I guess Hydra breaks that rule perfectly; hitting only 95 damage per pip. You can't deny that Spectral Blast increases Balance's dpp, whether it hits Balance damage or not.

A DoT is still considered an after effect, no matter what Diego or anybody says. What does Triage say on its description? Remove one over time effect from Target. Mass Triage is very much the same, and so on. That's clear proof that DoT's (and HoT's) are after effects, not straight up attacks.
Did you read anything I stated? Spectral blast deals as much as it does because it perfectly imitates the dpp of the respective elemental schools...as I just demonstrated to you. Hydra on the other hand does not imitate any of the elemental school's dpp and as a result deals slightly above the expected balance dpp.

Right so despite what the game itself says, DoT's are an after effect and not a type of damage because triage says it is. What do you make of the spell Shift which states push one "damage over time" to target? I suppose according to your logic shields and blades aren't really charms and wards because dimension shift calls them "hanging effects?"

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 5, 2014 wrote:
Did you read anything I stated? Spectral blast deals as much as it does because it perfectly imitates the dpp of the respective elemental schools...as I just demonstrated to you. Hydra on the other hand does not imitate any of the elemental school's dpp and as a result deals slightly above the expected balance dpp.

Right so despite what the game itself says, DoT's are an after effect and not a type of damage because triage says it is. What do you make of the spell Shift which states push one "damage over time" to target? I suppose according to your logic shields and blades aren't really charms and wards because dimension shift calls them "hanging effects?"
Spectral Blast is a Balance spell, meaning that it includes to balance's dpp. It's not that hard to understand. Insane Bolt deals Moon damage, do you then imply that it's a Moon spell and should therefore deal Moon's dpp? Whether you like it or not, Spectral Blast is a Balance spell being increased by Balance damage boost, not Storm/Fire/Ice. The only things that boost it are globals, blades, and traps, much like Insane Bolt. Balance's critical rating effects Spectral Blast, so your argument makes no sense. If you want that in a clearer example, if Storm had a spell that dealt Fire damage but used Storm's pips, if it costed 5 pips and did 650-730 damage, would you go complaining that it's overpowered because it does more than Fire's natural dpp? No, it's a Storm spell, therefore it follows along Storm's dpp.

If you analyzed games, a "burn" (in Wizard101 known as a DoT) is considered an effect. Think about Pokemon. If you use flamethrower and your opponent's Pokemon is burned, that's called an effect. I'm not sure if this is right, but I think there's an attack called willow wisp, and it deals no damage but leaves a burn on the Pokemon taking the hit. That's called an effect. Scald is an effect, not an attack. Fire Dragon does damage but leaves an effect behind it. Rain of Fire deals damage but leaves an effect behind it. Before you decide to make up a random theory, make sure it's right first.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 5, 2014 wrote:
Did you read anything I stated? Spectral blast deals as much as it does because it perfectly imitates the dpp of the respective elemental schools...as I just demonstrated to you. Hydra on the other hand does not imitate any of the elemental school's dpp and as a result deals slightly above the expected balance dpp.

Right so despite what the game itself says, DoT's are an after effect and not a type of damage because triage says it is. What do you make of the spell Shift which states push one "damage over time" to target? I suppose according to your logic shields and blades aren't really charms and wards because dimension shift calls them "hanging effects?"
Eric,

So you seem believe that there is a general set of rules,
for all wizards, but Balance does not follow them.
Plus, you seem to believe that because Hydra and
Spectra Blast are a 3 hit versus a 1 hit, they have
different rules for damage. If that is what you are
stating, then I can understand that.

Again, ignoring the fact that I beleive that there are
no rules that have to be followed, let's go on your
set of rules.
One of the points that I disagree is with what you
call aftereffects. (Lets again look at Sirens).
I consider when I put up two blades, that cost me
two rounds to put up, and they are both removed, I
have lost two rounds of play. So two rounds of play
have been taken plus a increased Black Mantel is put on me,
I consider that a total of three after effects.

Or, what about Medusa, if I get stunned by Ice, it's
called an aftereffect, and I lose one round.
If I get hit by Medusa, the aftereffect is huge, I loose
two rounds. I consider that aftereffects have to have a
ranking, much like dpp. On the otherhand, you put all
aftereffects as simply an aftereffect, which I completely
diagree with.

Why, because when one Black Mantel is put up, it's
considered an aftereffect. Based on that, if a
weakened Black Mantel is put up, maybe that should be
called a Half Aftereffect...... ?

Ok, back to Sirens, it removes two blades and then
puts up a boosted Black Mantel, and you don't call
that extreme aftereffects. Plus it maintains it's
standard damage for Storm. Given that, you just call
this an aftereffect and it's within the rules.
Lets jump to LoreMaster, it has two weakened aftereffects,
but is slightly boosted in it's dpp. Seems to be almost
the reverse of Sirens in it's own way. Simply because
it is over it's dpp, you call it overpowered.
Ofcourse you completly ignore the weakened aftereffects,
as you do so in any comparison.

The Scarecrow.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 5, 2014 wrote:
First of all loremaster is an average of 5.5 dpp above balances output not 2.5 as you are claiming. I assume you came up with 2.5 based on sabertooth alone which being a high powered 10 pip spell naturally has a higher dpp. This is like me comparing every other storm spell to storm owl's above average dpp(that would make every other storm spell underpowered [other than insane bolt and wild bolt when they hit 1000])

I am glad you bought up the other spells, let analyze them shall we?

Lets pretend that leviathan has 2 aftereffects(despite it being one aftereffect) its dpp is 103- below storms dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

Lets look at sirens(which was deservedly nerfed in test realm) its dpp is 98- on par with storm aoe dpp(and below loremasters dpp)

Lets also pretend that medusa is 2 aftereffects(because it takes 2 stun shields...oh wait) its dpp is 96-on par with myth's dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

Lets look at balance King Artorious its dpp is 91- on par with balances dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

The shift spells would be overpowered(100% accuracy and increased dpp)...if they used power pips. However they don't and as such are underpowered.

Lets also pretend that power link and all DoT's are aftereffects despite what the game itself says: its dpp is 99- below fires dpp(and below loremasters dpp)
Eric,

I can clearly see your point of view, I just completely disagree with the Black and White of it.

Anyway, I agree, let’s ignore my ideas and let’s just look at your point of view, lets analyze them….

Lets us clearly state that leviathan has 2 aftereffects (which it clearly does) its dpp is 103- below storms dpp(and below
loremaster's dpp because it does not have two weakened after effects).

Lets look at sirens (with it’s Three (3) aftereffects) its dpp is 98- on par with storm aoe dpp (and below loremasters dpp
with it’s only two weakended after effects.) Why does this spell have three aftereffects and is on Par?
I’ll stop here, but you get the idea, the aftereffects have a huge affect on the spell. So when you have reduced
aftereffects, shouldn’t the dpp increase to compensate?

Ok, since you keep stating that we have rules, (which I disagree with, as I have never seen KI post them), let’s look at your rules.

1 pip. Scarab is 85.5 dpp.
2 pip. Scorpion is 90 dpp
3 pip. Locust is 91.7 dpp (as we go up in pip cost we get stronger as you stated, but it’s clearly not linear).
2 pip. Super Nova 267.5 dpp (rule breaker, so we don’t really have a set of rules that are followed, do we?)
5 pip. Samoorai 100 dpp
5 pip Savage Paw 100 dpp with aftereffect (rule breaker, doesn’t follow your set of rules right, but then
again, KI never said it would follow your rules either).
4 pip, Loremaster 107.5 dpp with two weak aftereffects, rule breaker, again KI is not following your set of generated rules.
Even King doesn’t the follow the linear rules, because of the rating of the aftereffect.

So, ignoring my set of ideas and following your set of rules, which KI ignores, doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Now, as already stated, Balance is the one school that has flaws that no other school has. If KI is giving it extra help,
don’t you think they did it for a solid reason? Do you really think they picked 107.5 just as a random number, for the
fun of it. Or is the fact more likely that they broke “your set of rules”, for a very solid and logical reason?

What are the rules when they decrease the aftereffects to this degree, shouldn’t they increase the dpp?
As a misc note,
Between Friday at 3 pm and Sunday at 5 pm, I kept track of the fizzles that were cause by LoreMaster.
I ran at a solid 17% (14 fizzles) of a total of 84 casting of LoreMaster, not all that impressive.

I have clearly stated why I believe that LoreMaster was created with 107.5 and two weakened aftereffects.
Let’s see if it stands the test of time, or if KI will nerf LoreMaster down the road after data is accumulated.

This is what my whole point is, if they follow no rules, and they make Spells to fix a problem, then it’s not
Overpowered to any degree. If they find out that it is, then the data will prove that, and it gets nerfed.
I don’t really think that it matters how much people complain, the data is what really makes the decision.

Defender
Jun 29, 2014
144
William Dawncloud on Sep 11, 2014 wrote:
"balance has no attack all spell outside of ra which was given way back a long time ago"
ra hits very hard and is basically balance version of forest lord.
balance also has sandstorm and powernova in case you forgot
actually not that strong

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 5, 2014 wrote:
First of all loremaster is an average of 5.5 dpp above balances output not 2.5 as you are claiming. I assume you came up with 2.5 based on sabertooth alone which being a high powered 10 pip spell naturally has a higher dpp. This is like me comparing every other storm spell to storm owl's above average dpp(that would make every other storm spell underpowered [other than insane bolt and wild bolt when they hit 1000])

I am glad you bought up the other spells, let analyze them shall we?

Lets pretend that leviathan has 2 aftereffects(despite it being one aftereffect) its dpp is 103- below storms dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

Lets look at sirens(which was deservedly nerfed in test realm) its dpp is 98- on par with storm aoe dpp(and below loremasters dpp)

Lets also pretend that medusa is 2 aftereffects(because it takes 2 stun shields...oh wait) its dpp is 96-on par with myth's dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

Lets look at balance King Artorious its dpp is 91- on par with balances dpp(and below loremaster's dpp)

The shift spells would be overpowered(100% accuracy and increased dpp)...if they used power pips. However they don't and as such are underpowered.

Lets also pretend that power link and all DoT's are aftereffects despite what the game itself says: its dpp is 99- below fires dpp(and below loremasters dpp)
Leviathan: Since when does it do less dpp than Loremaster? Leviathan does 1030 damage and removes 2 blades, a spell that has a fixed point of damage with two after effects. Divine 1030 by 8 because of its pip cost, you get 128 dpp. Compared to Loremaster: Two nerfed side effects and does 97-117 dpp. Leviathan can be at most 31 dpp higher than Loremaster with the same aftereffects, are you seriously calling Loremaster overpowered by comparing it to a spell like that?

Sirens: A spell with 3 aftereffects (the removal of 2 blades is 2 after effects, and the increased mantle is 1 aftereffect). Okay, so 97 dpp with 3 aftereffects and targets all enemies. It's by nature that all enemy attacks are weaker then single hits, so I don't see the problem there, especially not with Sirens' 3 overcharged aftereffects.

Medusa: Stuns the opponent for 2 turns, and does a fixed damage point of 96 dpp. Personally, I take the loss of 2 turns as an "I'm kinda dead" situation, I don't know about you.

King Artorius: This is where I've explained about effects that stick, effects that are overcharged, and effects that boost yourself. Loremaster has a 20% Weakness, King Artorius nearly cuts an attack spell's damage by half and boosts your own damage. Like Veracity8 said, if you have an overcharged aftereffect, the damage is weakened. What I also believe is that if you have a "sticky" aftereffect (meaning you have to use a certain spell to remove it or stop it from happening), the dpp of the spell will be weaker. Unlike Loremaster's unreliable 35% (weakened) Black Mantle, King Artorius's aftereffects will stay until you trigger them with the appropriate spell.

Power Link: Two aftereffects, leaves a DoT and a HoT. Let's take a look at spells that deal damage and heal at the same time, shall we? How much damage does Vampire do? 87 dpp. Less than any other school's 4 pip one enemy spell, because it heals at the same time. How about Ghoul? Wraith? If you have a spell that heals and deals damage at the same time and is a DoT/HoT, the obvious logical way to balance it is by lowering down the dpp.

Now back to Veracity8's point on nerfed aftereffects from spells and ranking aftereffects. Loremaster has two weakened aftereffects, am I right? So let's see what you'd say about a spell that deals 400 damage for 4 pips, puts a 1% Weakness, 1% shield, 1% Black Mantle, heals 1, 1% blade, 1% trap, and -1% heal. That's 7 aftereffects, but they're all weak. Would you then complain that the spell is overpowered because it has 7 aftereffects? No. The aftereffects are weak, meaning that the spell would be perfectly fine.

Survivor
May 13, 2010
3
There is no such thing as the most OP school i played every school and i can say in confidence i can get them all to warlord at any lvl. I do have a balance and they are op in their own way but other schools can counter. I played vs that top ranked player but i didn't beat him because for few reason he went first and to win he used insane bolt critiing and me not blocking. If you looks at the probability of him winning it isn't that high if you take the facts that i had a hit coming next turn that would kill him, he could have killed him self. or i could have blocked him with my block 420 and i did block 3 out of 5 of his crits. the point is its not all about class being OP but being lucky. and storm has lots of luck when it comes to their play when balance much less they have more control over the battle with manaburn powernova and other spells. just play and have fun

lvl 100 lvl 80 lvl 80 lvl 75

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 7, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

So you seem believe that there is a general set of rules,
for all wizards, but Balance does not follow them.
Plus, you seem to believe that because Hydra and
Spectra Blast are a 3 hit versus a 1 hit, they have
different rules for damage. If that is what you are
stating, then I can understand that.

Again, ignoring the fact that I beleive that there are
no rules that have to be followed, let's go on your
set of rules.
One of the points that I disagree is with what you
call aftereffects. (Lets again look at Sirens).
I consider when I put up two blades, that cost me
two rounds to put up, and they are both removed, I
have lost two rounds of play. So two rounds of play
have been taken plus a increased Black Mantel is put on me,
I consider that a total of three after effects.

Or, what about Medusa, if I get stunned by Ice, it's
called an aftereffect, and I lose one round.
If I get hit by Medusa, the aftereffect is huge, I loose
two rounds. I consider that aftereffects have to have a
ranking, much like dpp. On the otherhand, you put all
aftereffects as simply an aftereffect, which I completely
diagree with.

Why, because when one Black Mantel is put up, it's
considered an aftereffect. Based on that, if a
weakened Black Mantel is put up, maybe that should be
called a Half Aftereffect...... ?

Ok, back to Sirens, it removes two blades and then
puts up a boosted Black Mantel, and you don't call
that extreme aftereffects. Plus it maintains it's
standard damage for Storm. Given that, you just call
this an aftereffect and it's within the rules.
Lets jump to LoreMaster, it has two weakened aftereffects,
but is slightly boosted in it's dpp. Seems to be almost
the reverse of Sirens in it's own way. Simply because
it is over it's dpp, you call it overpowered.
Ofcourse you completly ignore the weakened aftereffects,
as you do so in any comparison.

The Scarecrow.
I am confused how you consider a removal of 2 blades 2 aftereffects. Does this mean that earthquake, shatter and enfeeble have infinite side effects? Yes Sirens has 2 aftereffects and maintains its dpp since it is a high pip cost spell. Much as saber-tooth has 1 aftereffect(or is that 3 since its 3 shields?) and exceeds balance's dpp. The weakened aftereffects from loremaster still make the spell more valuable than a regular spell which means it should not exceed the dpp of no effect spells which it clearly does.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 7, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

I can clearly see your point of view, I just completely disagree with the Black and White of it.

Anyway, I agree, let’s ignore my ideas and let’s just look at your point of view, lets analyze them….

Lets us clearly state that leviathan has 2 aftereffects (which it clearly does) its dpp is 103- below storms dpp(and below
loremaster's dpp because it does not have two weakened after effects).

Lets look at sirens (with it’s Three (3) aftereffects) its dpp is 98- on par with storm aoe dpp (and below loremasters dpp
with it’s only two weakended after effects.) Why does this spell have three aftereffects and is on Par?
I’ll stop here, but you get the idea, the aftereffects have a huge affect on the spell. So when you have reduced
aftereffects, shouldn’t the dpp increase to compensate?

Ok, since you keep stating that we have rules, (which I disagree with, as I have never seen KI post them), let’s look at your rules.

1 pip. Scarab is 85.5 dpp.
2 pip. Scorpion is 90 dpp
3 pip. Locust is 91.7 dpp (as we go up in pip cost we get stronger as you stated, but it’s clearly not linear).
2 pip. Super Nova 267.5 dpp (rule breaker, so we don’t really have a set of rules that are followed, do we?)
5 pip. Samoorai 100 dpp
5 pip Savage Paw 100 dpp with aftereffect (rule breaker, doesn’t follow your set of rules right, but then
again, KI never said it would follow your rules either).
4 pip, Loremaster 107.5 dpp with two weak aftereffects, rule breaker, again KI is not following your set of generated rules.
Even King doesn’t the follow the linear rules, because of the rating of the aftereffect.

So, ignoring my set of ideas and following your set of rules, which KI ignores, doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Now, as already stated, Balance is the one school that has flaws that no other school has. If KI is giving it extra help,
don’t you think they did it for a solid reason? Do you really think they picked 107.5 just as a random number, for the
fun of it. Or is the fact more likely that they broke “your set of rules”, for a very solid and logical reason?

What are the rules when they decrease the aftereffects to this degree, shouldn’t they increase the dpp?
As a misc note,
Between Friday at 3 pm and Sunday at 5 pm, I kept track of the fizzles that were cause by LoreMaster.
I ran at a solid 17% (14 fizzles) of a total of 84 casting of LoreMaster, not all that impressive.

I have clearly stated why I believe that LoreMaster was created with 107.5 and two weakened aftereffects.
Let’s see if it stands the test of time, or if KI will nerf LoreMaster down the road after data is accumulated.

This is what my whole point is, if they follow no rules, and they make Spells to fix a problem, then it’s not
Overpowered to any degree. If they find out that it is, then the data will prove that, and it gets nerfed.
I don’t really think that it matters how much people complain, the data is what really makes the decision.
If you have weakened aftereffects should the spell be increased in dpp? Why should it be increased in dpp when no effect spells are at a lower dpp?

I am not sure why you keep referring to these as my rules. I did not design the game, I simply observe and draw conclusions based on the spell design. Are you denying that these rules aren't obvious from the dozens of spells KI has designed?

As for supernova it doesn't break the rules: It pays for its increased dpp and aftereffect by
1)Lower accuracy
2)Being dependent on your opponents prerogative

Every school has flaws the others do not have. Why is balance given a spell that is above dpp AND has 2 aftereffects with no consequences? I don't know, you don't know. The difference between us is you attempt to justify it, i make no such attempts.

If KI follows no rules I am very surprised that the vast majority of their spells happen to conform to these said rules.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 6, 2014 wrote:
Spectral Blast is a Balance spell, meaning that it includes to balance's dpp. It's not that hard to understand. Insane Bolt deals Moon damage, do you then imply that it's a Moon spell and should therefore deal Moon's dpp? Whether you like it or not, Spectral Blast is a Balance spell being increased by Balance damage boost, not Storm/Fire/Ice. The only things that boost it are globals, blades, and traps, much like Insane Bolt. Balance's critical rating effects Spectral Blast, so your argument makes no sense. If you want that in a clearer example, if Storm had a spell that dealt Fire damage but used Storm's pips, if it costed 5 pips and did 650-730 damage, would you go complaining that it's overpowered because it does more than Fire's natural dpp? No, it's a Storm spell, therefore it follows along Storm's dpp.

If you analyzed games, a "burn" (in Wizard101 known as a DoT) is considered an effect. Think about Pokemon. If you use flamethrower and your opponent's Pokemon is burned, that's called an effect. I'm not sure if this is right, but I think there's an attack called willow wisp, and it deals no damage but leaves a burn on the Pokemon taking the hit. That's called an effect. Scald is an effect, not an attack. Fire Dragon does damage but leaves an effect behind it. Rain of Fire deals damage but leaves an effect behind it. Before you decide to make up a random theory, make sure it's right first.
Yes it is a balance spell, however it does not follow balances dpp as it imitates the off school damage of the elementals. I just demonstrated to you how spectral blasts dpp EXACTLY MATCHES the dpp for the elemental school spells. Spectral blast is affected by schools specific traps, blades etc unlike insane bolt. In fact I am well aware of spell mechanics as expounded here: Spell Mechanics. If storm had a spell like that yes I would be complaining about its dpp.

So despite what KI games itself says about the nature of DoT's other games standards overrides theirs? It is clearly stated that DoT's are attacks that split their damage into 3 rounds. Yes spells can have a DoT after effect but only one spell in game has that and that spell is avenging fossil.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
PvP King on Oct 5, 2014 wrote:
That's what I've been thinking too. Loremaster and King Artorius are Balance's only spells that leave two after effects, and what makes Loremaster even less overpowered is that its after effect doesn't stick like all the others.Unlike King Artorius from just about any school, their aftereffects stay on their opponent until they use the required spell to take it off. Loremaster on the other hand only has one aftereffect that actually sticks, the Black Mantle from it can be removed by any spell or pet action.

Now that you brought up Shift spells, something came up in my mind as well. I noticed that in many PvP situations I've been using Shift Sugar Glider more than Loremaster from second because its aftereffects stay on the opponent and I don't have to worry about getting dispelled by an opponent who sets. With a more potent Weakness than Loremaster, it adds an Infection on the opponent only at the cost of one more pip. I do believe that all schools can get spells as good (or better) than Loremaster at or near the same amount of pips, with better aftereffects.
PVPKing,

This is actually making more sense to me, then it did
at the beginning of this posting.

The sticky part of the aftereffects statement you made
finally hit me. To me, this is actually the key that put
it all together. Finally let me get out of the tunnel
vision that I was locked into.

I expect that KI does have a certain criteria that they
follow, but no hard or steadfast rules.

I still don't think they look at the creation of the spells
in Black and White as Eric thinks they do. Hydra, Super
Nova, Savage Paw, LoreMaster, etc, all show this is not the
case, imo.

Maybe something along the lines of this, although this
may be only part of what they look at.

1. The dpp of each spell (does it need to correct an imbalance).
2. DOT or not, or it is a multi-functional spell like Link.
3. The number of actual Aftereffects, 1,2,3, etc.
4. Is the aftereffect Increased or decreased in value.
5. The wizard the spell is designed for, Balance, Storm, etc.
(likely takes in Gear available, base health, etc)
6. Is the Aftereffect(s) sticky, or can it be wiped out by
one wand (Like LoreMaster), etc.
7. Can the spell use Power pips, or no.
8. Is the damage Moon damage, etc.
9. I expect the list goes on...

So now that I look at LoreMaster, it has two minor
aftereffects that are both reduced, and one is not sticky.
Plus both can be removed by one wand or a low damage
spell with little effect.
Makes more sense that it's dpp has been increased.

Champion
Dec 03, 2012
488
Ok, balance is a very complicated school to discuss. Sometimes it can be underpowered, sometimes overpowered. While balance doesn't dominate the PVP area as well as storm, it can definitely deal some damage. I am a level 90 balance who has quit questing to focus on some other things, like fishing and PVP. My PVPer Molly who is my balance has a difficult time fighting with low resistance. Saying that balance is a weak school is a false statement. Weak? No, simply quite powered with the right strategy.
-Molly

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
"Sirens: A spell with 3 aftereffects (the removal of 2 blades is 2 after effects, and the increased mantle is 1 aftereffect)."

By your definition Earthquake has infinite after effects not 2. Removal of 2 blades is one effect.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
seethe42 on Oct 8, 2014 wrote:
"Sirens: A spell with 3 aftereffects (the removal of 2 blades is 2 after effects, and the increased mantle is 1 aftereffect)."

By your definition Earthquake has infinite after effects not 2. Removal of 2 blades is one effect.
That's a yes and no. If you look at it, Earthquake removes all negative charms, positive charms, negative wards, positive wards, etc. The spell is extremely situational (like Supernova and Mana Burn) and can harm yourself more than the opponent, much like Mana Burn hitting into 0 pips from second or Supernova fizzling.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 8, 2014 wrote:
Yes it is a balance spell, however it does not follow balances dpp as it imitates the off school damage of the elementals. I just demonstrated to you how spectral blasts dpp EXACTLY MATCHES the dpp for the elemental school spells. Spectral blast is affected by schools specific traps, blades etc unlike insane bolt. In fact I am well aware of spell mechanics as expounded here: Spell Mechanics. If storm had a spell like that yes I would be complaining about its dpp.

So despite what KI games itself says about the nature of DoT's other games standards overrides theirs? It is clearly stated that DoT's are attacks that split their damage into 3 rounds. Yes spells can have a DoT after effect but only one spell in game has that and that spell is avenging fossil.
If your point about Spectral Blast is that the dpp follows perfectly with the dpp of Fire/Ice/Storm, then your argument on Hydra is leaving me mind blank. So, because Balance has a spell that's increased by Balance stats, and then increased by other school charms and wards, it's now apparently not included in Balance's dpp from its spells. If your argument was correct, then let's put that to the test. Hydra does 95 dpp, while Spectral Blast averages 112 dpp and costs less pips. If your argument was the actual law for spells that do outside school damage, then would Hydra not do something like 155 Ice damage, 190 Fire damage, 200 Storm damage? But Hydra is a Balance spell, falling almost perfectly under Balance's dpp. Same as Chimera, it's a Balance spell, adding to Balance's dpp. Insane Bolt is a Storm spell, but everybody still says that it's 500 dpp from Storm because it's a Storm spell. If Spectral Blast were to be the limit to Balance's dpp, then KingsIsle did a very nice job setting Loremaster in its place.

There has never been once where KI stated that DoT's weren't effects. If you can prove to me that KI says that it's not an effect, then I'll agree with your point. DoT's, by nature, are effects. I proved this where Triage and Mass Triage say on their cards "DoT effect", and Dimension Shift is a nice example you gave me too. It says "effect" on it because that includes DoT's and HoT's as well, otherwise the card would be saying "trade all hanging effects and charms and wards with minion." If it were just to switch charms and wards, the card would probably say "remove all charms and wards". You can see this in Earthquake, remove all charms and wards from enemies. Shatter says remove all positive wards from enemy. Not all forms of damage are attacks either. Vampire's damage is called a drain (which is why it passes through Spirit Armor), spells like Scald are called DoT effects, spells like Sprite are called HoT's. If the attack was the DoT, damage enchantments would only focus on the DoT portion of the attack. You cannot call a DoT an attack, otherwise you'd be seeing an animation every time the DoT damages the opponent.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 7, 2014 wrote:
Leviathan: Since when does it do less dpp than Loremaster? Leviathan does 1030 damage and removes 2 blades, a spell that has a fixed point of damage with two after effects. Divine 1030 by 8 because of its pip cost, you get 128 dpp. Compared to Loremaster: Two nerfed side effects and does 97-117 dpp. Leviathan can be at most 31 dpp higher than Loremaster with the same aftereffects, are you seriously calling Loremaster overpowered by comparing it to a spell like that?

Sirens: A spell with 3 aftereffects (the removal of 2 blades is 2 after effects, and the increased mantle is 1 aftereffect). Okay, so 97 dpp with 3 aftereffects and targets all enemies. It's by nature that all enemy attacks are weaker then single hits, so I don't see the problem there, especially not with Sirens' 3 overcharged aftereffects.

Medusa: Stuns the opponent for 2 turns, and does a fixed damage point of 96 dpp. Personally, I take the loss of 2 turns as an "I'm kinda dead" situation, I don't know about you.

King Artorius: This is where I've explained about effects that stick, effects that are overcharged, and effects that boost yourself. Loremaster has a 20% Weakness, King Artorius nearly cuts an attack spell's damage by half and boosts your own damage. Like Veracity8 said, if you have an overcharged aftereffect, the damage is weakened. What I also believe is that if you have a "sticky" aftereffect (meaning you have to use a certain spell to remove it or stop it from happening), the dpp of the spell will be weaker. Unlike Loremaster's unreliable 35% (weakened) Black Mantle, King Artorius's aftereffects will stay until you trigger them with the appropriate spell.

Power Link: Two aftereffects, leaves a DoT and a HoT. Let's take a look at spells that deal damage and heal at the same time, shall we? How much damage does Vampire do? 87 dpp. Less than any other school's 4 pip one enemy spell, because it heals at the same time. How about Ghoul? Wraith? If you have a spell that heals and deals damage at the same time and is a DoT/HoT, the obvious logical way to balance it is by lowering down the dpp.

Now back to Veracity8's point on nerfed aftereffects from spells and ranking aftereffects. Loremaster has two weakened aftereffects, am I right? So let's see what you'd say about a spell that deals 400 damage for 4 pips, puts a 1% Weakness, 1% shield, 1% Black Mantle, heals 1, 1% blade, 1% trap, and -1% heal. That's 7 aftereffects, but they're all weak. Would you then complain that the spell is overpowered because it has 7 aftereffects? No. The aftereffects are weak, meaning that the spell would be perfectly fine.
Leviathan: You are right about the dpp being more than Loremaster's, i miscalculated. That being said its dpp is lower than storms average dpp which is exactly balanced. Yes I am calling loremaster overpowered because unlike leviathan it comes with 2 aftereffects and is above balance's dpp.

Sirens: Agreed-balanced

Medusa: Agreed-balanced

Loremaster: Does loremaster not have 2 effects that stick? If you have any effect the damage is weakened, not simply an "overcharged effect"

Power Link: Lower dpp: Balanced

If the spell had minuscule aftereffects I would expect its dpp to be reduced a miniscule amount. If its dpp was increased however I would indeed have an issue which is the case for loremaster.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 8, 2014 wrote:
PVPKing,

This is actually making more sense to me, then it did
at the beginning of this posting.

The sticky part of the aftereffects statement you made
finally hit me. To me, this is actually the key that put
it all together. Finally let me get out of the tunnel
vision that I was locked into.

I expect that KI does have a certain criteria that they
follow, but no hard or steadfast rules.

I still don't think they look at the creation of the spells
in Black and White as Eric thinks they do. Hydra, Super
Nova, Savage Paw, LoreMaster, etc, all show this is not the
case, imo.

Maybe something along the lines of this, although this
may be only part of what they look at.

1. The dpp of each spell (does it need to correct an imbalance).
2. DOT or not, or it is a multi-functional spell like Link.
3. The number of actual Aftereffects, 1,2,3, etc.
4. Is the aftereffect Increased or decreased in value.
5. The wizard the spell is designed for, Balance, Storm, etc.
(likely takes in Gear available, base health, etc)
6. Is the Aftereffect(s) sticky, or can it be wiped out by
one wand (Like LoreMaster), etc.
7. Can the spell use Power pips, or no.
8. Is the damage Moon damage, etc.
9. I expect the list goes on...

So now that I look at LoreMaster, it has two minor
aftereffects that are both reduced, and one is not sticky.
Plus both can be removed by one wand or a low damage
spell with little effect.
Makes more sense that it's dpp has been increased.
I expect that KI does have a certain criteria that they
follow, but no hard or steadfast rules



Bingo, and that is my point, lore master defies these rules no matter how loosely interpreted. Loremaster has 2 aftereffects compared to one. Its aftereffects are reduced 5% and 10%. It deals above dpp despite having these aftereffects. Can you explain to me why you think a spell with 2 weakened aftereffects should have a dpp above a spell with no aftereffect?

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Oct 8, 2014 wrote:
"Sirens: A spell with 3 aftereffects (the removal of 2 blades is 2 after effects, and the increased mantle is 1 aftereffect)."

By your definition Earthquake has infinite after effects not 2. Removal of 2 blades is one effect.
Earthquake and Shatter have always been considered overpowered, no question about it.
They can take dozens of rounds or work, and remove them for just a few pips.
Didn't one site even remove Shatter from it's tournaments, because they felt it was way
overpowered? No one has liked Shatter from the day it was created, except those that
stack, shatter and hit (and myth ofcourse).

No matter how you look at it, Sirens makes you lose three rounds in almost all cases. While
Loremaster can be wanded off in one round. There is no comparison between the two spells,
Sirens is by far the better spell. The only time I consider the removal of two blades one effect,
is when I put up a tri-blade, and it removes two blades.

For those that don't understand the difference between the aftereffects and what sticky vs non sticky
means., please reread the above posts. I can clearly see where KI can see the difference, just in
how they design their spells.
If there was no difference, then all spells would have the same basic setup that Eric has noted.
There are variations, and hence the difference in dpp, number of aftereffects, different aftereffects, etc.

Why do some spells have -20, some -25, some -40, and some -90 weakness, it's all part of the design,
and directly ties into the power of the aftereffect and the power of the dpp, etc.

So, if you want to believe that they don't design each spell differently, then I guess all the gear is the
same too, plus all pets, all Wizard base Health, etc, etc. I can see many things that would prove
you incorrect in what you say.

Also, btw, where does KI specifically state that Siren is just considered one aftereffect, I would like to
take some time and read how they state it?

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Molly the Balance ... on Oct 8, 2014 wrote:
Ok, balance is a very complicated school to discuss. Sometimes it can be underpowered, sometimes overpowered. While balance doesn't dominate the PVP area as well as storm, it can definitely deal some damage. I am a level 90 balance who has quit questing to focus on some other things, like fishing and PVP. My PVPer Molly who is my balance has a difficult time fighting with low resistance. Saying that balance is a weak school is a false statement. Weak? No, simply quite powered with the right strategy.
-Molly
Molly,

I agree, I have watched Balance spam LoreMaster and still lose the match. If LoreMaster was so
overpowering, then they would win each and every time. That is not the case, and has really never
been the case. It also doesn't matter if you are first or second, I have seen plenty of good Balance
players lose from both positions. Again, if Loremaster was so OverPowered, they would never lose
from first. I even saw one Balance go Jade, because of the number of loses he started having.

Quite the opposite with my Storm, I can win from second just as easy as from first. Enfreeble is an
incredible spells, as no one can stack on Storm. Insane bolt and wild bolt both add to an arsenal
that is very potent. There is no school at all like Storm, all they need is a little luck to win from second.
Plus the are (imo) the only school that can out damage a Life's heals, to win the match.

At level 100, I very much agree with the statements that all schools are very close to being equal. Each
school has it's overpowered spells, even if some of them are craftable.
If you look over the list, as many try to ignore, Insane bolt is the first and foremost Overpowered spell in
the game. Shatter takes a close second, along with Mana burn. Efreet dominated the PvP for over a
year, and was clearly overpowering. Link, Power Link, Fire is just an excellent school. Death is playing
very well, I have seen a larger group now in PvP. Ice took a leap with Winter Moon, that spell along
with Frostbite makes Ice a constant danger.
So, yeah, all Wizards right now have a solid set of spells, that allows them to all play and win even at
levels near 1600.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 9, 2014 wrote:
I expect that KI does have a certain criteria that they
follow, but no hard or steadfast rules



Bingo, and that is my point, lore master defies these rules no matter how loosely interpreted. Loremaster has 2 aftereffects compared to one. Its aftereffects are reduced 5% and 10%. It deals above dpp despite having these aftereffects. Can you explain to me why you think a spell with 2 weakened aftereffects should have a dpp above a spell with no aftereffect?
Eric's Posting.....
------------------------------------------------------------
"I expect that KI does have a certain criteria that they
follow, but no hard or steadfast rules

Bingo, and that is my point, lore master defies these rules no
matter how loosely interpreted. Loremaster has 2 aftereffects
compared to one. Its aftereffects are reduced 5% and 10%.
It deals above dpp despite having these aftereffects. Can
you explain to me why you think a spell with 2 weakened aftereffects
should have a dpp above a spell with no aftereffect?"
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Eric,

I saw no reason to answer your other postings, as I feel that my
reply to "PvPKing" took care of them.

Before I answer your question, I have one for you.
"lore master defies these rules no matter how loosely interpreted"

The Question is, are you interpreting the rules correctly?

Now, that this question has been posed, my belief is that you are
not interpreting them correctly. Why, there is a number of reason,
the first being how you percieve the aftereffects.

Here's a few examples,

Example #1.
Samoorai at an average of 100 dpp and no aftereffect.
Savage Paw at 100 dpp and a Blade aftereffect. (Rule breaker).
If the rules you see were correct, then this breaks the rules
right off the bat. Both pure Balance spells, and again, I
expect to hear (well, it's overpowered). Or we could say,
that Samoorai has an average of 100, it could hit lower.
Doesn't matter, the avage of the design is still 100 dpp.

Example #2.
SuperNova with one aftereffect (takes away an Aura) 267.5 dpp.
What rule does this follow, wth, let's just make one up.

Example #3.
Let's say (just for the fun of it) that Balance average dpp is 100.
King Atorious is 90.6 with two full aftereffects.
(Maybe we could also say that each full aftereffect is worth ~5 dpp.
Sabertooth is at 105 with one full aftereffect. Should we say
it's a bigger spell, so it's have more dpp, if so why?
We are looking at dpp, it should not how many pips the spell is.
Chimera has no aftereffect and has a dpp of 113, it's a lower
pip than Sabertooth... but a much higher dpp.
Spectal Blast at 113 dpp average, same as Chimera, but only at
4 pips.
Hydra is at 95 dpp, and is 6 pips, shouldn't this be a higher dpp?
PvPKing is saying this too?

Example #4.
Since the above examples show that it really doesn't matter if the
spell is a high pip or a low pip spell, the dpp does not follow a
set of rules.
Spectral Blast 113 dpp no aftereffect.
Chimera 113 dpp and no aftereffect.
Sabertooth 105 and one full AFtereffect.
LoreMaster, 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects. Plus the aftereffects
on LoreMaster are weak and non stickly. Not out of place at all
when you look at the overall dpp of each spell with aftereffect.
So, if one aftereffect is worth 5 dpp (see example above), would two
reduced aftereffects be worth 5 dpp?

The Scarecrow.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 8, 2014 wrote:
That's a yes and no. If you look at it, Earthquake removes all negative charms, positive charms, negative wards, positive wards, etc. The spell is extremely situational (like Supernova and Mana Burn) and can harm yourself more than the opponent, much like Mana Burn hitting into 0 pips from second or Supernova fizzling.
You never answered Seethe42's question. Do you consider earthquake to have infinite side effects?

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 8, 2014 wrote:
If your point about Spectral Blast is that the dpp follows perfectly with the dpp of Fire/Ice/Storm, then your argument on Hydra is leaving me mind blank. So, because Balance has a spell that's increased by Balance stats, and then increased by other school charms and wards, it's now apparently not included in Balance's dpp from its spells. If your argument was correct, then let's put that to the test. Hydra does 95 dpp, while Spectral Blast averages 112 dpp and costs less pips. If your argument was the actual law for spells that do outside school damage, then would Hydra not do something like 155 Ice damage, 190 Fire damage, 200 Storm damage? But Hydra is a Balance spell, falling almost perfectly under Balance's dpp. Same as Chimera, it's a Balance spell, adding to Balance's dpp. Insane Bolt is a Storm spell, but everybody still says that it's 500 dpp from Storm because it's a Storm spell. If Spectral Blast were to be the limit to Balance's dpp, then KingsIsle did a very nice job setting Loremaster in its place.

There has never been once where KI stated that DoT's weren't effects. If you can prove to me that KI says that it's not an effect, then I'll agree with your point. DoT's, by nature, are effects. I proved this where Triage and Mass Triage say on their cards "DoT effect", and Dimension Shift is a nice example you gave me too. It says "effect" on it because that includes DoT's and HoT's as well, otherwise the card would be saying "trade all hanging effects and charms and wards with minion." If it were just to switch charms and wards, the card would probably say "remove all charms and wards". You can see this in Earthquake, remove all charms and wards from enemies. Shatter says remove all positive wards from enemy. Not all forms of damage are attacks either. Vampire's damage is called a drain (which is why it passes through Spirit Armor), spells like Scald are called DoT effects, spells like Sprite are called HoT's. If the attack was the DoT, damage enchantments would only focus on the DoT portion of the attack. You cannot call a DoT an attack, otherwise you'd be seeing an animation every time the DoT damages the opponent.
It is not a claim it is a demonstrable fact that spectral blast imitates the dpp of the elemental schools.

Spectral Blast Ice: 365 Compared to Wyvern 335-395(average 365)
Spectral Blast Fire: 440 Compared to Burning Revanant 440
Spectral Blast Storm: 550 Compared to Kraken 520-580(average 550)

The balance school unlike every other school(barring storm:insane bolt) is able to deal off school damage with their normal spells. The off school damage spells either imitate the school of origin or are given high-end to increased dpp as they can then be shielded with specific shields unlike balance damage.

Insane bolt is indeed a storm spell but i would hope that you are not claiming that its 500 dpp be averaged into storms normal spell damage.

I can't show you what KI didn't say, However I can tell you what they did say about DoT's which are that they are a type of attack that deals its damage over 3 rounds. I also demonstrated that the card terminology is inconsistent with the Shift Spell and the Dimension Shift Spell. All forms of damage are attacks but all attacks are not the same form. Drains are a type of attack as are DoT's and regular single hit attacks. As far as I know the DoT spell includes the initial attack. Also I am pretty sure I see an animation every time a DoT damages me.(not that animation has anything to do with whether a DoT is a type of attack or an effect).