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Who is OP in PVP, not Balance for sure.

AuthorMessage
A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 25, 2014 wrote:
Spectral Blast is an exception to a balance spell...that deals elemental damage. It pays a consequence for being an exception-it has variable damage and the damage becomes shieldable with specific shields. Loremaster however is balance damage, pays no consequential effect and has 2 added effects. Comparing Judgement to tempest? Tempest is an x pip aoe, judgement is a single target x pip. Even judgement pays for its high end balance damage by completely draining the user of all his/her pips. Loremaster deals more than judgement and adds 2 effects. No balance damage spell has close to storm dpp with no consequence.

Lol the health argument is one of the worse arguments you could bring up. Assuming your numbers are correct, you will realize that health gains continue to accelerate as you level up. By the time both schools acquire their third rank spells(lvl 10) balance's base health is a full 195 above storm's. Combine this with base accuracy and the health from gear and you can see the problem. Furthermore health is a cost free attribute that is present from the start of the battle. In order to achieve higher dpp, storm has to cast higher ranked spells which cost more of an in battle. resource: pips.

Minion Lowest Health- Nope myth's is. Plus you can summon another school's minions and the helpful mander is one of the most versatile minions.

Lowest Percent Blades- Also the only universal buffs without consequence.

Lowest Percent Shield- Also the only one of 2 schools that can shield against every other school naturally.

Considering that pips control your spells and auras are the cheapest and most effective ways to modify your own stats that is a huge amount of control.

No school has any unbeatable strategy, this hs nothing to do with whether loremaster is overpowered.
Loremaster is an exception to a Balance spell by having more dpp than Judgement at 4 pips. What are the consequences of Loremaster being a Balance hit? Let's see:
1) Can't stack blades to hit harder, unlike any other school's spell in the game.
2) Least reliable boosts.
3) Has a lower dpp than Spectral Blast, resulting in less damage for two added aftereffects.

One thing I really don't understand is how you can't get the fact that Loremaster is weaker than Spectral Blast. If I am first, and my opponent has no shields, I could either be dealing 550 damage or 470. The 550 damage will be flat out damage, while the 470 damage will have two aftereffects. It does not matter what type of damage I do, it could be Moon, Fire, Storm. Ice, Life, Myth, Death, Star, Sun, Shadow, Balance damage, I am still dealing more damage than Loremaster. Your argument is completely off-topic on Spectral Blast being an exception to Balance spells, and has no value to support any argument.

Yes, Balance has more health than Storm as a base. Balance also has less damage and the same resist as Storm. Storm's dpp is a leap of faith compared to Balance's dpp at the cost of a small amount of health. Balance is at a disadvantage in several ways, with no efficient bubble, no useful large pip aftereffect against Storm, much weaker blades than Storm, much less critical than Storm, the same block rating as Storm, a little more power pip chance, and roughly the same accuracy from gear. If Storm has only around 500 less health than Balance while having more critical, more damage, more armor pierce, same block, same resist, a little less power pip chance, and almost the same accuracy, anybody can see why Balance got Loremaster as a spell. Who will critical more? Storm. Who will deal more damage with every attack? Storm.

Myth's minion for lowest health? Okay, let's compare all 3 pip minions.
Mander: 300
Cyclops: 550
Troll: 450
Fire: 400
Ice: 400
Storm: 700
Skeletal: 300

I'm sure that Myth's 550 health minion has less health than Balance's 300 health minion. Thanks for the math.

Lowest percent blades- Also the only blades with consequence.
Lowest percent shield- Also the only school without 70% shields.

Pip control and aura control spells aren't cheap ways to control a match lol. So you're saying if I mistime my Mana Burn and waste the 5 pips on 0 pips, I'm controlling the match? How about if I'm first and my opponent does ~1200 damage with a 5 pip spell while I do only ~700? I can really see the advantage of doing 500 less damage.

No school has an unbeatable strategy? How about Death Jades who set? Have you seen somebody take them down in less than 30 minutes? How about Life wizards with MC Sanctuary as a pet talent and use 150% heal boost gear? Have you seen anybody take them out in under 30 minutes? Balance has no cheap time consuming strategies while other schools do, you can't argue with that.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
seethe42 on Oct 25, 2014 wrote:
They do NOT hit with THREE DIFFERENT schools. Like I said.
Okay so let's see, if I'm hitting Fire, Myth, and Death with 100 damage per hit, or if I'm hitting Fire three times with 100 damage per hit, is that not resulting in 300 damage with each attack? Last time I checked, 1 Myth damage is the same as 1 Fire, Ice, or Storm damage, unless I'm playing the wrong game.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
958
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 21, 2014 wrote:
No it does not control the rules as we can see from analyzing any given balance spell that it is not the average of all other school's spells.
That is exactly what I was trying to do, generate a set of rules to go by that we could all agree too.
Then do the match behind the spells, with a standard for gear, etc. Since you cannot seem to agree
to anything, I see no reason to waste my time, plus PvP has clearly proven you incorrect.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
PvP King on Oct 27, 2014 wrote:
Loremaster is an exception to a Balance spell by having more dpp than Judgement at 4 pips. What are the consequences of Loremaster being a Balance hit? Let's see:
1) Can't stack blades to hit harder, unlike any other school's spell in the game.
2) Least reliable boosts.
3) Has a lower dpp than Spectral Blast, resulting in less damage for two added aftereffects.

One thing I really don't understand is how you can't get the fact that Loremaster is weaker than Spectral Blast. If I am first, and my opponent has no shields, I could either be dealing 550 damage or 470. The 550 damage will be flat out damage, while the 470 damage will have two aftereffects. It does not matter what type of damage I do, it could be Moon, Fire, Storm. Ice, Life, Myth, Death, Star, Sun, Shadow, Balance damage, I am still dealing more damage than Loremaster. Your argument is completely off-topic on Spectral Blast being an exception to Balance spells, and has no value to support any argument.

Yes, Balance has more health than Storm as a base. Balance also has less damage and the same resist as Storm. Storm's dpp is a leap of faith compared to Balance's dpp at the cost of a small amount of health. Balance is at a disadvantage in several ways, with no efficient bubble, no useful large pip aftereffect against Storm, much weaker blades than Storm, much less critical than Storm, the same block rating as Storm, a little more power pip chance, and roughly the same accuracy from gear. If Storm has only around 500 less health than Balance while having more critical, more damage, more armor pierce, same block, same resist, a little less power pip chance, and almost the same accuracy, anybody can see why Balance got Loremaster as a spell. Who will critical more? Storm. Who will deal more damage with every attack? Storm.

Myth's minion for lowest health? Okay, let's compare all 3 pip minions.
Mander: 300
Cyclops: 550
Troll: 450
Fire: 400
Ice: 400
Storm: 700
Skeletal: 300

I'm sure that Myth's 550 health minion has less health than Balance's 300 health minion. Thanks for the math.

Lowest percent blades- Also the only blades with consequence.
Lowest percent shield- Also the only school without 70% shields.

Pip control and aura control spells aren't cheap ways to control a match lol. So you're saying if I mistime my Mana Burn and waste the 5 pips on 0 pips, I'm controlling the match? How about if I'm first and my opponent does ~1200 damage with a 5 pip spell while I do only ~700? I can really see the advantage of doing 500 less damage.

No school has an unbeatable strategy? How about Death Jades who set? Have you seen somebody take them down in less than 30 minutes? How about Life wizards with MC Sanctuary as a pet talent and use 150% heal boost gear? Have you seen anybody take them out in under 30 minutes? Balance has no cheap time consuming strategies while other schools do, you can't argue with that.
The attributes you listed for balance damage aren't exceptions, they are characteristics of that damage type. Much like storm spells having base 70% accuracy. Loremaster deals more dpp than any other balance damage spell without any consequential effects not just judgement

I want you to find where I stated that Loremaster does more damage than spectral blast. The type of damage does matter since spectral blast is imitative and it deals damage than can be defended by with more potent specific shields.

No large pip aftereffect against storm? So? You have many potent small pip aftereffects. Please show me the gear that you are citing that gives storm only 500 less health than balance, much more critical, the same block, the same resist and similar accuracy. As far as I know this magic gear doesn't exist. Even at base without factoring in gear storm is 1000 health below balance.

Interesting, in your last statement you said that balance has the lowest health minion. Clearly it does not as golem minion's 45 health trumps that. I like how you modified your statement to try to validate your argument though lol.

If any school mistimes any spell it's ineffective. Does that make their spells any less potent? Nope.

As far as I know, death jades and the angel strategy while extremely difficult to defeat are still defeatable. I don't know what 30 minutes has to do with them being beatable. Any school slapping on jade can have a cheap time-consuming strategy including balance.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
PvP King on Oct 27, 2014 wrote:
Okay so let's see, if I'm hitting Fire, Myth, and Death with 100 damage per hit, or if I'm hitting Fire three times with 100 damage per hit, is that not resulting in 300 damage with each attack? Last time I checked, 1 Myth damage is the same as 1 Fire, Ice, or Storm damage, unless I'm playing the wrong game.
3 different schools requires 3 different resists. You know fully well that defending three separate school attacks in one hit is different than defending one school. Unless you really are playing the wrong game.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 28, 2014 wrote:
The attributes you listed for balance damage aren't exceptions, they are characteristics of that damage type. Much like storm spells having base 70% accuracy. Loremaster deals more dpp than any other balance damage spell without any consequential effects not just judgement

I want you to find where I stated that Loremaster does more damage than spectral blast. The type of damage does matter since spectral blast is imitative and it deals damage than can be defended by with more potent specific shields.

No large pip aftereffect against storm? So? You have many potent small pip aftereffects. Please show me the gear that you are citing that gives storm only 500 less health than balance, much more critical, the same block, the same resist and similar accuracy. As far as I know this magic gear doesn't exist. Even at base without factoring in gear storm is 1000 health below balance.

Interesting, in your last statement you said that balance has the lowest health minion. Clearly it does not as golem minion's 45 health trumps that. I like how you modified your statement to try to validate your argument though lol.

If any school mistimes any spell it's ineffective. Does that make their spells any less potent? Nope.

As far as I know, death jades and the angel strategy while extremely difficult to defeat are still defeatable. I don't know what 30 minutes has to do with them being beatable. Any school slapping on jade can have a cheap time-consuming strategy including balance.
"The type of damage does matter since spectral blast is imitative and it deals damage than can be defended by with more potent specific shields." Where does that balance out? Oh right, at the cost of being boosted by much smaller percentages of blades and a much smaller number, there are fewer shields to weaken Loremaster.

The magic gear I "invented?" Okay, let's compare base health. Storm has 2607, Balance has 3147. Now let's see the gear. If both are using KR hats, Hades robes, and KR boots with Morganthe amulets (Balance wizards normally use mastery amulets whereas Storm wizards don't), Lunar Scepter of Anubis, Blade of the Felled Titan, Duelist's Daredevil Ring and the average tri-damage double-resist pets, the stats would be:
Storm's health: 2607+285+200+122+320+300+200=4034
Balance's health: 3147++432+420+225+320+300+=4844
Balance has 810 more health.

Storm critical: 194+97+75+30=396
Balance critical: 168+84+75=327
Storm has 69 more critical than Balance.

Storm damage: 20+25+25+15+10+15=110%
Balance damage:17+16+22+15+10+15=95%
Storm has 15% more damage than Balance

Storm's resist: 35% universal, 55% to Elemental schools
Balance's resist: 32% universal, 55% to Elemental schools
Storm has 3 more universal resist

Storm's accuracy: 83%
Balance's accuracy: 92%
Balance has 9 more accuracy

Storm's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15+30= 307 universal block rating
Balance's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15=277 universal block rating
Storm has 30 more universal block rating

Storm's power pip chance: 40+8+17+13=78%
Balance's power pip chance: 40+9+17+13=79%
Balance has one higher power pip chance

Both schools will have the same heal boost, and Storm will have one more armor pierce than Balance. Let's see where Storm exceeds Balance:
-69 more critical rating than Balance
-15% more damage than Balance
-2% more universal resist than Balance
-30 more universal block rating than Balance
-1% more armor pierce than Balance

Let's see where Balance exceeds Storm:
-810 more health than Storm
-1% more power pip chance than Storm
-9% more accuracy than Storm

Storm has 5 stats advantages over Balance and Balance only has 3 (two minor) stats advantages over Storm. If Balance were to use a Morganthe amulet, they would lose the following:
-The ability to change Storm's bubble
-Possible Shrike-proof spells

Balance does have the lowest health minion. You can't compare a 3 pip minion to a no pip minion, and Myth's minion costs no pips at all, a far greater advantage from second than using 3 pips on a minion. If you want to compare apples to oranges, I guess we could say that Loremaster is the single-target version of Fire Trap, after all, you can compare anything to anything according to you right?

If any school mistimes its spells, they do something. If Mana Burn or Supernova are mistimed, they do absolutely nothing.

Hey, you said it not me, angels and Jades are extremely difficult to beat, not Balance.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
Veracity8 on Oct 28, 2014 wrote:
That is exactly what I was trying to do, generate a set of rules to go by that we could all agree too.
Then do the match behind the spells, with a standard for gear, etc. Since you cannot seem to agree
to anything, I see no reason to waste my time, plus PvP has clearly proven you incorrect.
You have yet to provide me with any kind of data based on any rules you wish to generate. If you do not wish to post your proofs, that's on you. In fact the only post where you did give me rules, i used those very same rules to prove that loremaster is still above the curve. Finally, I am curious as to how PvP has clearly proven me incorrect.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
PvP King on Oct 29, 2014 wrote:
"The type of damage does matter since spectral blast is imitative and it deals damage than can be defended by with more potent specific shields." Where does that balance out? Oh right, at the cost of being boosted by much smaller percentages of blades and a much smaller number, there are fewer shields to weaken Loremaster.

The magic gear I "invented?" Okay, let's compare base health. Storm has 2607, Balance has 3147. Now let's see the gear. If both are using KR hats, Hades robes, and KR boots with Morganthe amulets (Balance wizards normally use mastery amulets whereas Storm wizards don't), Lunar Scepter of Anubis, Blade of the Felled Titan, Duelist's Daredevil Ring and the average tri-damage double-resist pets, the stats would be:
Storm's health: 2607+285+200+122+320+300+200=4034
Balance's health: 3147++432+420+225+320+300+=4844
Balance has 810 more health.

Storm critical: 194+97+75+30=396
Balance critical: 168+84+75=327
Storm has 69 more critical than Balance.

Storm damage: 20+25+25+15+10+15=110%
Balance damage:17+16+22+15+10+15=95%
Storm has 15% more damage than Balance

Storm's resist: 35% universal, 55% to Elemental schools
Balance's resist: 32% universal, 55% to Elemental schools
Storm has 3 more universal resist

Storm's accuracy: 83%
Balance's accuracy: 92%
Balance has 9 more accuracy

Storm's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15+30= 307 universal block rating
Balance's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15=277 universal block rating
Storm has 30 more universal block rating

Storm's power pip chance: 40+8+17+13=78%
Balance's power pip chance: 40+9+17+13=79%
Balance has one higher power pip chance

Both schools will have the same heal boost, and Storm will have one more armor pierce than Balance. Let's see where Storm exceeds Balance:
-69 more critical rating than Balance
-15% more damage than Balance
-2% more universal resist than Balance
-30 more universal block rating than Balance
-1% more armor pierce than Balance

Let's see where Balance exceeds Storm:
-810 more health than Storm
-1% more power pip chance than Storm
-9% more accuracy than Storm

Storm has 5 stats advantages over Balance and Balance only has 3 (two minor) stats advantages over Storm. If Balance were to use a Morganthe amulet, they would lose the following:
-The ability to change Storm's bubble
-Possible Shrike-proof spells

Balance does have the lowest health minion. You can't compare a 3 pip minion to a no pip minion, and Myth's minion costs no pips at all, a far greater advantage from second than using 3 pips on a minion. If you want to compare apples to oranges, I guess we could say that Loremaster is the single-target version of Fire Trap, after all, you can compare anything to anything according to you right?

If any school mistimes its spells, they do something. If Mana Burn or Supernova are mistimed, they do absolutely nothing.

Hey, you said it not me, angels and Jades are extremely difficult to beat, not Balance.
Nice try except Storm base Health at level 100 is 2016, not 2607(Fire), so take another 600 off your fictional total.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
seethe42 on Oct 29, 2014 wrote:
Nice try except Storm base Health at level 100 is 2016, not 2607(Fire), so take another 600 off your fictional total.
Oops, I looked at Fire by accident. Sure, you can take 600 health off, but then who has the stats advantage (and damage from spells advantage) still? Storm. Nice try on trying to finally make a valid point on Balance being overpowered, but you didn't. Any other ways you want to tell me Loremaster isn't justified as a spell? Let's recap what Veracity8 and I said to disprove all things you said:
-Compared to Spectral Blast, Loremaster does a lot lower damage
-The Mantle aftereffect isn't sticky
- Both aftereffects are weakened
-The damage ranges, and in all cases, is weaker than Savage Paw which has one blading aftereffect(aftereffect spells that boost yourself in damage with a blade/trap have a larger dpp taken away from it),
-There are many other spells with the same amount of aftereffects that can do nearly 50 more dpp than Loremaster (Leviathan, for example)
-Balance has been lagging behind in reliable aftereffects compared to the other schools
-Balance has no DoT
-Balance can't change bubbles efficiently
-Balance has no overpowered strategy unlike the infamous Jades that spam Bad Juju and the Life wizards who stack up on heal boost
-Balance has become a less effective school in team PvP, now it is focusing more on surviving on its own
-Others schools took Balance's spells (Weakness, Balanceblade, Hex) as aftereffects from normal spells, pet spells, treasure cards
-Balance is supposed to mix other school's spells into one (Luminous Weaver + Krampus - aftereffect percentage = Loremaster)
-Every wizard was warned when joining the game that at first Balance might not seem like a strong school but once mastered, (in other words reaching Exalted) is the most powerful school
-Balance still loses from first quite often, one damage spike on Balance and it can't recover its health thanks to Shrike and its tendency of using 50% shields
-New gear has been focusing on Balance resistance/block stats (Poseidon's gear)
-Balance got the worst Morganthe gear out of all schools

Since I see that you and Eric are struggling to find good arguments on Balance being overpowered and are searching for small typos in mine and Veracity8's points, I suppose you've given up on proving that Balance really is overpowered.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
PvP King on Oct 29, 2014 wrote:
"The type of damage does matter since spectral blast is imitative and it deals damage than can be defended by with more potent specific shields." Where does that balance out? Oh right, at the cost of being boosted by much smaller percentages of blades and a much smaller number, there are fewer shields to weaken Loremaster.

The magic gear I "invented?" Okay, let's compare base health. Storm has 2607, Balance has 3147. Now let's see the gear. If both are using KR hats, Hades robes, and KR boots with Morganthe amulets (Balance wizards normally use mastery amulets whereas Storm wizards don't), Lunar Scepter of Anubis, Blade of the Felled Titan, Duelist's Daredevil Ring and the average tri-damage double-resist pets, the stats would be:
Storm's health: 2607+285+200+122+320+300+200=4034
Balance's health: 3147++432+420+225+320+300+=4844
Balance has 810 more health.

Storm critical: 194+97+75+30=396
Balance critical: 168+84+75=327
Storm has 69 more critical than Balance.

Storm damage: 20+25+25+15+10+15=110%
Balance damage:17+16+22+15+10+15=95%
Storm has 15% more damage than Balance

Storm's resist: 35% universal, 55% to Elemental schools
Balance's resist: 32% universal, 55% to Elemental schools
Storm has 3 more universal resist

Storm's accuracy: 83%
Balance's accuracy: 92%
Balance has 9 more accuracy

Storm's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15+30= 307 universal block rating
Balance's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15=277 universal block rating
Storm has 30 more universal block rating

Storm's power pip chance: 40+8+17+13=78%
Balance's power pip chance: 40+9+17+13=79%
Balance has one higher power pip chance

Both schools will have the same heal boost, and Storm will have one more armor pierce than Balance. Let's see where Storm exceeds Balance:
-69 more critical rating than Balance
-15% more damage than Balance
-2% more universal resist than Balance
-30 more universal block rating than Balance
-1% more armor pierce than Balance

Let's see where Balance exceeds Storm:
-810 more health than Storm
-1% more power pip chance than Storm
-9% more accuracy than Storm

Storm has 5 stats advantages over Balance and Balance only has 3 (two minor) stats advantages over Storm. If Balance were to use a Morganthe amulet, they would lose the following:
-The ability to change Storm's bubble
-Possible Shrike-proof spells

Balance does have the lowest health minion. You can't compare a 3 pip minion to a no pip minion, and Myth's minion costs no pips at all, a far greater advantage from second than using 3 pips on a minion. If you want to compare apples to oranges, I guess we could say that Loremaster is the single-target version of Fire Trap, after all, you can compare anything to anything according to you right?

If any school mistimes its spells, they do something. If Mana Burn or Supernova are mistimed, they do absolutely nothing.

Hey, you said it not me, angels and Jades are extremely difficult to beat, not Balance.
So you want to compare a balance wizard without the morganthe amulet...to a storm wizard with the morganthe amulet(a stat modifying gear) and then note the difference? How about we compare the 2 school's stats with the same gear(both have divine influence-the recognized best amulet in the game for PvP)

Storm's Health: 2016+285+200+122+320+300+200= 3443 health
Balance's Health: 3147+432+420+225+320+300+200= 5044 health
Balance has 1601 more health than storm(about 47% more health)
Storms Critical: 194+97+75+30=396
Balances Critical: 168+84+75+30=357
Storm has 39 more critical than balance

Storms Damage 20+25+25+15+10+15=110%
Balance's Damage=17+16+22+15+10+15= 95%
Storm has 15% more damage than balance

Storm's Resist:15+6+12+3=36% universal + 56% elemental
Balance Resist 15+6+12+3=36% universal + 58% elemental.
Same Universal/Balance has 2% more elemental resist than storm

Storm's Accuracy= 7+6= 13(70+13)=83%
Balance's Accuracy= 3+4=7(85+7)=92%
Balance has 9% more accuracy than storm
Storm Pierce: 6%+4%+3%=13%
Balance's Pierce: 6%+3%+3%=12%
Storm has 1% more pierce than balance
Storm's power pip chance: 40+9+17+13=78%
Balance's power pip chance: 40+8+17+13= 79%
Balance has 1% more power pip chance than storm

Storm's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15+45= 322 universal block rating
Balance's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15+45= 322 universal block rating
Same Block

Lets see where storm exceeds balance:
15% more damage
39 more critical
1% more pierce

Lets see where balance exceeds storm:
1601 more health(47%)
9% more accuracy
2% elemental resist
1% more power pip chance.

Mmmm, this data is clearly showing me the humongous disadvantage balance suffers against storm?

I made no apples to oranges comparison lol. You stated that balance has the lowest health minion(which it clearly does not). However if you state balance has the lowest 3 pip minion then your argument would have more merit.

How does one mistime Supernova short of not paying attention? Furthermore spells being mistimed and doing nothing include
1)Incorrectly predicting an attack and healing from second while you are at full health
2)Incorrectly predicting a DoT and triaging/shifting
3)Enfeebling from second when said person just used their blades
4)Casting Stun into a stun shield or aura

Once again im unsure of what jades being difficult to beat has to do with Loremaster.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
958
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 29, 2014 wrote:
You have yet to provide me with any kind of data based on any rules you wish to generate. If you do not wish to post your proofs, that's on you. In fact the only post where you did give me rules, i used those very same rules to prove that loremaster is still above the curve. Finally, I am curious as to how PvP has clearly proven me incorrect.
Eric,

Since you will ignore any rules I generate, lets look at your rules.

Based on all the evidence presented, I see that it means
nothing to you. Your rules, also seem to mean nothing to
me, so where does that leave us?

Samoorai is an average of 500 for 5 pips, 100 dpp.
Savage Paw is an average of 500 for 5 pips, 100 dpp with
a 25% blade added. Rule breaker, no, Balance as other spells
don't follow your rules. So, you rules become meaningless the
way I see it.

Power Nova (7), 470 and a weakness to all.
DPP is 67

RA (8), 560 to 640, no after effects.
Average DPP is 63.
(Again rule breaker, no aftereffects and is Lower dpp).

Spectral Blast, 365, 440, 550, the average is 451.
Average dpp is 113

LoreMaster, is 390 to 470, the average is 430.
Average dpp is 108 with two reduced after effects.
(oh, not a rule breaker, as it is lower than Spectral Blast).
It has after effects and is reduced in dpp, seems to follow
your rules.

So, we have Savage Paw and RA that both break the rules, but
LoreMaster follows them, and it's the one thats over-powered?

Could you remind me, what kind of swiss cheese are your rules
made from?

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 29, 2014 wrote:
So you want to compare a balance wizard without the morganthe amulet...to a storm wizard with the morganthe amulet(a stat modifying gear) and then note the difference? How about we compare the 2 school's stats with the same gear(both have divine influence-the recognized best amulet in the game for PvP)

Storm's Health: 2016+285+200+122+320+300+200= 3443 health
Balance's Health: 3147+432+420+225+320+300+200= 5044 health
Balance has 1601 more health than storm(about 47% more health)
Storms Critical: 194+97+75+30=396
Balances Critical: 168+84+75+30=357
Storm has 39 more critical than balance

Storms Damage 20+25+25+15+10+15=110%
Balance's Damage=17+16+22+15+10+15= 95%
Storm has 15% more damage than balance

Storm's Resist:15+6+12+3=36% universal + 56% elemental
Balance Resist 15+6+12+3=36% universal + 58% elemental.
Same Universal/Balance has 2% more elemental resist than storm

Storm's Accuracy= 7+6= 13(70+13)=83%
Balance's Accuracy= 3+4=7(85+7)=92%
Balance has 9% more accuracy than storm
Storm Pierce: 6%+4%+3%=13%
Balance's Pierce: 6%+3%+3%=12%
Storm has 1% more pierce than balance
Storm's power pip chance: 40+9+17+13=78%
Balance's power pip chance: 40+8+17+13= 79%
Balance has 1% more power pip chance than storm

Storm's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15+45= 322 universal block rating
Balance's critical block: 28+79+130+25+15+45= 322 universal block rating
Same Block

Lets see where storm exceeds balance:
15% more damage
39 more critical
1% more pierce

Lets see where balance exceeds storm:
1601 more health(47%)
9% more accuracy
2% elemental resist
1% more power pip chance.

Mmmm, this data is clearly showing me the humongous disadvantage balance suffers against storm?

I made no apples to oranges comparison lol. You stated that balance has the lowest health minion(which it clearly does not). However if you state balance has the lowest 3 pip minion then your argument would have more merit.

How does one mistime Supernova short of not paying attention? Furthermore spells being mistimed and doing nothing include
1)Incorrectly predicting an attack and healing from second while you are at full health
2)Incorrectly predicting a DoT and triaging/shifting
3)Enfeebling from second when said person just used their blades
4)Casting Stun into a stun shield or aura

Once again im unsure of what jades being difficult to beat has to do with Loremaster.
Lol, that's funny Eric. Not every school can use the same amulet and expect to win. Because a Life wizard can run a Myth Mastery, does that mean that Storm can run it well too? No. Balance doesn't do even half as well with a stats amulet than it does with a Death Mastery amulet. If you'd like to disprove me, I'd gladly share PvP records and see who has less losses.

Like I said, your argument on Balance being overpowered is so desperate that you go searching for minor typing errors in mine and Veracity8's points to prove your own. As desperate as your attempt is, it changes nothing in the fact that Balance's 3 pip minion has the lowest health and is the easiest to take out. I expected more than a grammar lesson as a reply.

1) From first, you have no problem
2) From first, again, there is no problem with the spell
3) From first, there is no issue
4) From first, again, there is no issue

Issues with Mana Burn from first:
1) Your opponent still uses their spells
2) Does horrible damage per pip for such a high pip cost spell

About your last sentence, here is my reply to you: Think. If you really need me to be your kindergarten teacher and make every little connection for you, okay, I can. Does Loremaster give Balance an impossible advantage? No. Does Bad Juju give Jades impossible advantage? Yes. Who is harder to beat, do you think? A Balance who set ~60% resist for your school only, or a Death Jade who set ~120% resist for you, 76% to all other schools, has -90% Weaknesses dividing your spell's power by 10 and then being immune, and having a large heal boost and a large number of counters to Shrike and Dark Nova? I find it amusing that you're whining about one single spell, while glass cannons, Jades, and many other strategies are taking PvP into a whole new level of frustration.

Administrator
Hello everyone,

I appreciate your desire to debate game mechanics and have been impressed with the level of detail presented in this thread.

But this is a friendly reminder to be respectful in your debate. Thanks for understanding.


community@wizard101.com
A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
Professor Greyrose on Oct 30, 2014 wrote:
Hello everyone,

I appreciate your desire to debate game mechanics and have been impressed with the level of detail presented in this thread.

But this is a friendly reminder to be respectful in your debate. Thanks for understanding.
Okay, sorry for that. Some debates can get a little wild.

Though, I do have a question. Is there any graph or chart that explains the balance or standing of each school? As Veracity8 and Eric have said, it is strange that somebody who works for KingsIsle hasn't replied yet with details, and I'm happy that you did right now, but is it possible to have your own opinion on Loremaster? Both sides fn the argument are biased as one side has Balance as the main school and the other does not, I would be interested to see what KingsIsle's thoughts (and future actions) are on Loremaster or Balance's position itself as a school, as us players are blinded to that information.

Administrator
PvP King on Oct 30, 2014 wrote:
Okay, sorry for that. Some debates can get a little wild.

Though, I do have a question. Is there any graph or chart that explains the balance or standing of each school? As Veracity8 and Eric have said, it is strange that somebody who works for KingsIsle hasn't replied yet with details, and I'm happy that you did right now, but is it possible to have your own opinion on Loremaster? Both sides fn the argument are biased as one side has Balance as the main school and the other does not, I would be interested to see what KingsIsle's thoughts (and future actions) are on Loremaster or Balance's position itself as a school, as us players are blinded to that information.
Hello,

I think debates about game balance are better suited for KI employees to have behind the scenes.

Your feedback is important to that discussion, however. And we really appreciate hearing it. It is vital to the process of making good decisions.


community@wizard101.com
Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
PvP King on Oct 30, 2014 wrote:
Okay, sorry for that. Some debates can get a little wild.

Though, I do have a question. Is there any graph or chart that explains the balance or standing of each school? As Veracity8 and Eric have said, it is strange that somebody who works for KingsIsle hasn't replied yet with details, and I'm happy that you did right now, but is it possible to have your own opinion on Loremaster? Both sides fn the argument are biased as one side has Balance as the main school and the other does not, I would be interested to see what KingsIsle's thoughts (and future actions) are on Loremaster or Balance's position itself as a school, as us players are blinded to that information.
I don't know where you got the idea that the other side of this argument doesn't have Balance wizards.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
Veracity8 on Oct 30, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

Since you will ignore any rules I generate, lets look at your rules.

Based on all the evidence presented, I see that it means
nothing to you. Your rules, also seem to mean nothing to
me, so where does that leave us?

Samoorai is an average of 500 for 5 pips, 100 dpp.
Savage Paw is an average of 500 for 5 pips, 100 dpp with
a 25% blade added. Rule breaker, no, Balance as other spells
don't follow your rules. So, you rules become meaningless the
way I see it.

Power Nova (7), 470 and a weakness to all.
DPP is 67

RA (8), 560 to 640, no after effects.
Average DPP is 63.
(Again rule breaker, no aftereffects and is Lower dpp).

Spectral Blast, 365, 440, 550, the average is 451.
Average dpp is 113

LoreMaster, is 390 to 470, the average is 430.
Average dpp is 108 with two reduced after effects.
(oh, not a rule breaker, as it is lower than Spectral Blast).
It has after effects and is reduced in dpp, seems to follow
your rules.

So, we have Savage Paw and RA that both break the rules, but
LoreMaster follows them, and it's the one thats over-powered?

Could you remind me, what kind of swiss cheese are your rules
made from?
"Since you will ignore any rules I generate, lets look at your rules."

Actually, I have never ignored your rules, every rule you have attempted to make I have addressed. In fact the last set of rules you made I used those same rules to demonstrate how Loremaster was still above the curve.

"Samoorai is an average of 500 for 5 pips, 100 dpp.
Savage Paw is an average of 500 for 5 pips, 100 dpp with
a 25% blade added. Rule breaker, no, Balance as other spells
don't follow your rules. So, you rules become meaningless the
way I see it."

I agree that savage paw is a rulebreaker as I pointed out a few pages back. So my rules are meaningless? Didn't you just recently generate a bunch of rules yourself that savage paw violates? I quote: "2. A spell that has a single hit, one aftereffect, no DOT or TOE. Normally the dpp will be lower." So which is it? Are the rules you yourself have observed to be true meaningless?

RA (8), 560 to 640, no after effects.
Average DPP is 63.
(Again rule breaker, no aftereffects and is Lower dpp).

Actually, Ra's average dpp is 75, which perfectly fits the rule.

Spectral Blast, 365, 440, 550, the average is 451.
Average dpp is 113

LoreMaster, is 390 to 470, the average is 430.
Average dpp is 108 with two reduced after effects.
(oh, not a rule breaker, as it is lower than Spectral Blast).
It has after effects and is reduced in dpp, seems to follow
your rules.

Not quite; spectral blast as I have repeatedly pointed out does not match the dpp of balance damage spells. In fact spectral blast's "average" dpp is higher than every balance damage spell in the game bar supernova. Supernova pays a steep price for dealing above dpp balance damage. Loremaster pays no such price.

So, we have Savage Paw and RA that both break the rules, but
LoreMaster follows them, and it's the one thats over-powered?

Could you remind me, what kind of swiss cheese are your rules
made from?

So what we do have is Savage Paw and Loremaster breaking the rules. Hence why I refer to them as "overpowered."

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
PvP King on Oct 30, 2014 wrote:
Lol, that's funny Eric. Not every school can use the same amulet and expect to win. Because a Life wizard can run a Myth Mastery, does that mean that Storm can run it well too? No. Balance doesn't do even half as well with a stats amulet than it does with a Death Mastery amulet. If you'd like to disprove me, I'd gladly share PvP records and see who has less losses.

Like I said, your argument on Balance being overpowered is so desperate that you go searching for minor typing errors in mine and Veracity8's points to prove your own. As desperate as your attempt is, it changes nothing in the fact that Balance's 3 pip minion has the lowest health and is the easiest to take out. I expected more than a grammar lesson as a reply.

1) From first, you have no problem
2) From first, again, there is no problem with the spell
3) From first, there is no issue
4) From first, again, there is no issue

Issues with Mana Burn from first:
1) Your opponent still uses their spells
2) Does horrible damage per pip for such a high pip cost spell

About your last sentence, here is my reply to you: Think. If you really need me to be your kindergarten teacher and make every little connection for you, okay, I can. Does Loremaster give Balance an impossible advantage? No. Does Bad Juju give Jades impossible advantage? Yes. Who is harder to beat, do you think? A Balance who set ~60% resist for your school only, or a Death Jade who set ~120% resist for you, 76% to all other schools, has -90% Weaknesses dividing your spell's power by 10 and then being immune, and having a large heal boost and a large number of counters to Shrike and Dark Nova? I find it amusing that you're whining about one single spell, while glass cannons, Jades, and many other strategies are taking PvP into a whole new level of frustration.
Lol, that's funny Eric. Not every school can use the same amulet and expect to win.

That's true but every school can be very successful with the commonly acknowledged best amulet in the game and if you are making a stat to stat comparison you must use the equivalent gear no?

Like I said, your argument on Balance being overpowered is so desperate that you go searching for minor typing errors in mine and Veracity8's points to prove your own. As desperate as your attempt is, it changes nothing in the fact that Balance's 3 pip minion has the lowest health and is the easiest to take out. I expected more than a grammar lesson as a reply.

Minor typing errors? You mean like completely misrepresenting Storm's base health, having one wizard use a divine amulet and the other not and claiming that balance has the lowest health minion which is obviously not true. I'm sorry but as I just demonstrated balance's 3 pip minion does not have the lowest health. Nothing I said to you constitutes a grammar lesson.

Issues with Mana Burn from first:
1) Your opponent still uses their spells
2) Does horrible damage per pip for such a high pip cost spell

1)If they correctly predict mana burn. If not they lose those pips and take damage. Either way they take damage and lose any leftover pips.
2)Mana Burn has variable damage that is entirely dependent on when you cast it from first.

I have made my stance on jade gear and the issues surrounding it clear from the get go. Simply because other overpowered items, strategies and/or spells exist does not mean that Loremaster is not overpowered.

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
776
Professor Greyrose on Oct 30, 2014 wrote:
Hello,

I think debates about game balance are better suited for KI employees to have behind the scenes.

Your feedback is important to that discussion, however. And we really appreciate hearing it. It is vital to the process of making good decisions.
Much appreciated! I hope that the great many of us who are happy with the way things are and NOT complaining will also be weighed. Sometimes is seems like a small, but vocal group who complain frequently have undue influence.

Ones unwillingness to use a tool, or inability to counter a tactic does not mean the game is broken.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
958
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 31, 2014 wrote:
"Since you will ignore any rules I generate, lets look at your rules."

Actually, I have never ignored your rules, every rule you have attempted to make I have addressed. In fact the last set of rules you made I used those same rules to demonstrate how Loremaster was still above the curve.

"Samoorai is an average of 500 for 5 pips, 100 dpp.
Savage Paw is an average of 500 for 5 pips, 100 dpp with
a 25% blade added. Rule breaker, no, Balance as other spells
don't follow your rules. So, you rules become meaningless the
way I see it."

I agree that savage paw is a rulebreaker as I pointed out a few pages back. So my rules are meaningless? Didn't you just recently generate a bunch of rules yourself that savage paw violates? I quote: "2. A spell that has a single hit, one aftereffect, no DOT or TOE. Normally the dpp will be lower." So which is it? Are the rules you yourself have observed to be true meaningless?

RA (8), 560 to 640, no after effects.
Average DPP is 63.
(Again rule breaker, no aftereffects and is Lower dpp).

Actually, Ra's average dpp is 75, which perfectly fits the rule.

Spectral Blast, 365, 440, 550, the average is 451.
Average dpp is 113

LoreMaster, is 390 to 470, the average is 430.
Average dpp is 108 with two reduced after effects.
(oh, not a rule breaker, as it is lower than Spectral Blast).
It has after effects and is reduced in dpp, seems to follow
your rules.

Not quite; spectral blast as I have repeatedly pointed out does not match the dpp of balance damage spells. In fact spectral blast's "average" dpp is higher than every balance damage spell in the game bar supernova. Supernova pays a steep price for dealing above dpp balance damage. Loremaster pays no such price.

So, we have Savage Paw and RA that both break the rules, but
LoreMaster follows them, and it's the one thats over-powered?

Could you remind me, what kind of swiss cheese are your rules
made from?

So what we do have is Savage Paw and Loremaster breaking the rules. Hence why I refer to them as "overpowered."
Happy Holloweeen everyone.....

Eric,

Yep, I messed up on RA, I divided 500 instead of 600, my bad.

So your saying that Balance has two overpowered spells, and
your ignoring all the other schools that have overpowered
spells....? When 6 of 7 of the schools have overpowered spells,
how can you say that anything is overpowered? I have not
included Fire below, but Heckhound at 130 dpp at (level 18) is
also clearly way overpowered....

Storm, Storm Owl - 158 dpp, way over storms average...of 138.
Insane bolt is way overpowered, as is Wild Bolt.
If you bring up Loremaster, you should reference these three at
the same time.

Let see how that would sound, Balance has two overpowered spells,
but Storm has three OP spells.
Oh wait, that doesn't sound so good, lets change that.
Give me a little time to think this over..... so I can put it
in a better light that will get LoreMaster nerfed.

Ice, it's average dpp is about 91, but Ice has Handsome Fomori
at 98 dpp, and then to top that off, Ice has Winter Moon at
99 dpp and an after effect, and you don't call that
overpowered too? Why not?

Life, it has Spinysaur at 135 dpp, when it's dpp is around 91.
That spells, even at 10 pips, is way overpowered for Life.
Even though part is over time, it's still way overpowered.

Death, has an average of around 91, and it comes up with Deer
Knight at 114 dpp and it hits all.... Skeleton dragon hits for
126 dpp, that was overpowered for Death. Talk about non linear
increased in damage... Deer Knight clearly is above Loremaster.

Myth has an average of 99 or so, but Ninja Pigs hits for
128 dpp, and only a minor loss of 5% accuracy. You have to
consider that way overpowered too.... how can you not?

So, we have all of these spells, that do not fit the rules,
that are clearly overpowered. Well, yeah, but let's ignore
them and only attack Balance, (must be a logical reason right?).

You keep saying you want calculations, here's a few.....
Ok, lets look at the percentage of increase of Death and Myth.
1. Death with Deer Knight has an increase of 21%. 94 vs 114 dpp.
2. Myth with Ninja Pigs has an increase of 29%, but reduced because of
the accuracy drop it's only 24%. (~99/128 dpp)
3. Let's skip Storm, because their damage is just insane to start with.
4. Balance, LoreMaster, a lowly increase of just 12% with reduced
aftereffects.

Example,
99 dpp 100
----- = ----- X = 129, or a 29 % increase.
128 dpp X

Why is LoreMaster even on the list for being OverPowered?

So, it's safe to say that KI has multiple spells for multiple Wizards
that are clearly overpowered (based on your set of rules).
So, with all these rulebreakers, that break the rules at a higher
level then Balance, how can we say LoreMaster is OverPowered?

If Balance was the only school that had a spell that was above
the rules, I would maybe buy into it. As it is, it's just another
spells that fits in with all of the other spells.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
seethe42 on Oct 31, 2014 wrote:
I don't know where you got the idea that the other side of this argument doesn't have Balance wizards.
I said that the player's main wizard isn't Balance, quit trying to change up my words.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1643
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 31, 2014 wrote:
Lol, that's funny Eric. Not every school can use the same amulet and expect to win.

That's true but every school can be very successful with the commonly acknowledged best amulet in the game and if you are making a stat to stat comparison you must use the equivalent gear no?

Like I said, your argument on Balance being overpowered is so desperate that you go searching for minor typing errors in mine and Veracity8's points to prove your own. As desperate as your attempt is, it changes nothing in the fact that Balance's 3 pip minion has the lowest health and is the easiest to take out. I expected more than a grammar lesson as a reply.

Minor typing errors? You mean like completely misrepresenting Storm's base health, having one wizard use a divine amulet and the other not and claiming that balance has the lowest health minion which is obviously not true. I'm sorry but as I just demonstrated balance's 3 pip minion does not have the lowest health. Nothing I said to you constitutes a grammar lesson.

Issues with Mana Burn from first:
1) Your opponent still uses their spells
2) Does horrible damage per pip for such a high pip cost spell

1)If they correctly predict mana burn. If not they lose those pips and take damage. Either way they take damage and lose any leftover pips.
2)Mana Burn has variable damage that is entirely dependent on when you cast it from first.

I have made my stance on jade gear and the issues surrounding it clear from the get go. Simply because other overpowered items, strategies and/or spells exist does not mean that Loremaster is not overpowered.
A stat to stat comparison, in my opinion, requires gear choice in a real-PvP situation. If I were to say that, for example, Fire was overpowered and compared it to the Life school, I would make the Fire wizard's example have a Life Mastery Amulet and the Life wizard use the Amulet of Divine Influence in stat comparison. That's how you can get the best results if you're trying to figure something out.

Yes, I did use Fire's health by accident and did correct it. By minor typing errors, you're taking what I say, changing it up to mean a whole new thing, and comparing it to something that resolves in no point at all. Since when do you think somebody would compare a 3 pip minion to a 0 pip minion? You said to Veracity8 yourself: "I'm comparing Loremaster to spells with aftereffects." (In this situation comparing the Mander to other 3 pip minions) Unless you mean that you want to compare Loremaster's dpp to Ninja Pigs as well and come up with the conclusion that Loremaster isn't overpowered, that's fine by me.

I also compared Helpful Mander to Death's 3 pip minion, compared it to Myth's 3 pip minions, excluded Life's 4 pip Sprite Guardian, so it should've been quite obvious that the Helpful Mander was being compared to 3 pip minions.

1) Yes, if they do not predict a Mana Burn or do not find the card in time, or fizzle, then Mana Burn takes their pips. Hence the point of the spell. However, if from second, and your opponent uses their pips the same turn you use Mana Burn, it does zero damage as it is an attack spell. Unlike all other attacks that run into shields, Mana Burn will be dealing no damage at all, while other spells are guaranteed to deal damage. That balances the spell out, and it does not in fact make Balance overpowered in any way.
2) Mana Burn is still far under Balance's average dpp, a weak spell for a unique and unlikely situation. Once again, nothing dangerous enough to make Balance overpowered.

I agree with your last phrase, but I strongly disagree with Loremaster being overpowered. Sure, I can agree to a middle point that Unstoppable enchanted Supernovas can be cheap in some situations, but
Loremaster isn't a spell that dramatically exceeds Balance's standards or changes PvP so dramatically that Balance becomes overpowered. So far, every school has one staple spell, such as Storm with their Insane Bolt, Fire with Krampus, Life with Guardian Spirit, Death with Doom and Gloom, Myth with Medusa, and Ice with Frostbite. Balance's staple spell is Loremaster. Every school has a spell that makes other people have difficulty fighting them, but it doesn't make the school overpowered.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
958
Professor Greyrose on Oct 30, 2014 wrote:
Hello,

I think debates about game balance are better suited for KI employees to have behind the scenes.

Your feedback is important to that discussion, however. And we really appreciate hearing it. It is vital to the process of making good decisions.
Hi Professor,

I agree, there is no question that KI employees are better suited to have a discussion on this topic
to make the right decisions.
On the other hand, discussions like this are needed on the boards so that we understand what is
correct, and what is incorrect.
Where some strongly free that LoreMaster is overpowered, others strongly feel, and I think can
prove that it is not. It is just one of many spells that have higher damage, etc, than the average spell.

Plus it helps me (and I hope others) better understand the details of the spells and game.

Have a great Holloween.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
Veracity8 on Oct 31, 2014 wrote:
Happy Holloweeen everyone.....

Eric,

Yep, I messed up on RA, I divided 500 instead of 600, my bad.

So your saying that Balance has two overpowered spells, and
your ignoring all the other schools that have overpowered
spells....? When 6 of 7 of the schools have overpowered spells,
how can you say that anything is overpowered? I have not
included Fire below, but Heckhound at 130 dpp at (level 18) is
also clearly way overpowered....

Storm, Storm Owl - 158 dpp, way over storms average...of 138.
Insane bolt is way overpowered, as is Wild Bolt.
If you bring up Loremaster, you should reference these three at
the same time.

Let see how that would sound, Balance has two overpowered spells,
but Storm has three OP spells.
Oh wait, that doesn't sound so good, lets change that.
Give me a little time to think this over..... so I can put it
in a better light that will get LoreMaster nerfed.

Ice, it's average dpp is about 91, but Ice has Handsome Fomori
at 98 dpp, and then to top that off, Ice has Winter Moon at
99 dpp and an after effect, and you don't call that
overpowered too? Why not?

Life, it has Spinysaur at 135 dpp, when it's dpp is around 91.
That spells, even at 10 pips, is way overpowered for Life.
Even though part is over time, it's still way overpowered.

Death, has an average of around 91, and it comes up with Deer
Knight at 114 dpp and it hits all.... Skeleton dragon hits for
126 dpp, that was overpowered for Death. Talk about non linear
increased in damage... Deer Knight clearly is above Loremaster.

Myth has an average of 99 or so, but Ninja Pigs hits for
128 dpp, and only a minor loss of 5% accuracy. You have to
consider that way overpowered too.... how can you not?

So, we have all of these spells, that do not fit the rules,
that are clearly overpowered. Well, yeah, but let's ignore
them and only attack Balance, (must be a logical reason right?).

You keep saying you want calculations, here's a few.....
Ok, lets look at the percentage of increase of Death and Myth.
1. Death with Deer Knight has an increase of 21%. 94 vs 114 dpp.
2. Myth with Ninja Pigs has an increase of 29%, but reduced because of
the accuracy drop it's only 24%. (~99/128 dpp)
3. Let's skip Storm, because their damage is just insane to start with.
4. Balance, LoreMaster, a lowly increase of just 12% with reduced
aftereffects.

Example,
99 dpp 100
----- = ----- X = 129, or a 29 % increase.
128 dpp X

Why is LoreMaster even on the list for being OverPowered?

So, it's safe to say that KI has multiple spells for multiple Wizards
that are clearly overpowered (based on your set of rules).
So, with all these rulebreakers, that break the rules at a higher
level then Balance, how can we say LoreMaster is OverPowered?

If Balance was the only school that had a spell that was above
the rules, I would maybe buy into it. As it is, it's just another
spells that fits in with all of the other spells.
Happy Halloween to you too. I hope everyone stuffed their faces full of candy lol.

I'll go line by line and examine your items.

-Heckhound: DoT(gains dpp) and pays a price(x pip drains all pips)-Balanced

-Storm Owl: Rank 10 spell with no effect gains more dpp as all other Rank 10's do and is consistent with more pips for more dpp-Balanced

-Insane Bolt- Chance of Death each cast(pays a price), price is too low according to my math-Overpowered but consistent with paying a price for massive increased dpp.

-Wild Bolt- Pays a price for chance of massive dpp. Vast majority of the time deals less dpp than any 2 pip spell in the game-Balanced

-Handsome Fomoori-High end but still balanced(similar to how judgement and samoorai are high end for balance but still balanced)

-Wintermoon- Agreed, overpowered

-Spinysaur-DoT(increases dpp) and Rank 10(increases dpp further)- Balanced

-Deer Knight/Skeletal Dragon- DoTs(higher dpp)-Balanced

-Ninja Pigs-Pays a consequence for its increased dpp- Balanced

As you can see all of these spells except wintermoon consistently follow the rules and hence are balanced. The increase in damage is accounted for with either consequential effects(Ninja Pigs, Wild bolt, Insane Bolt) or the nature of the spell being a DoT or high rank spell(Spinysaur, Deer Knight, Heckhound, Storm Owl). Loremaster is a spell that has an increased dpp and 2 additional effects with NO consequential effect on the spell and while remaining at a low pip cost.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
PvP King on Oct 31, 2014 wrote:
A stat to stat comparison, in my opinion, requires gear choice in a real-PvP situation. If I were to say that, for example, Fire was overpowered and compared it to the Life school, I would make the Fire wizard's example have a Life Mastery Amulet and the Life wizard use the Amulet of Divine Influence in stat comparison. That's how you can get the best results if you're trying to figure something out.

Yes, I did use Fire's health by accident and did correct it. By minor typing errors, you're taking what I say, changing it up to mean a whole new thing, and comparing it to something that resolves in no point at all. Since when do you think somebody would compare a 3 pip minion to a 0 pip minion? You said to Veracity8 yourself: "I'm comparing Loremaster to spells with aftereffects." (In this situation comparing the Mander to other 3 pip minions) Unless you mean that you want to compare Loremaster's dpp to Ninja Pigs as well and come up with the conclusion that Loremaster isn't overpowered, that's fine by me.

I also compared Helpful Mander to Death's 3 pip minion, compared it to Myth's 3 pip minions, excluded Life's 4 pip Sprite Guardian, so it should've been quite obvious that the Helpful Mander was being compared to 3 pip minions.

1) Yes, if they do not predict a Mana Burn or do not find the card in time, or fizzle, then Mana Burn takes their pips. Hence the point of the spell. However, if from second, and your opponent uses their pips the same turn you use Mana Burn, it does zero damage as it is an attack spell. Unlike all other attacks that run into shields, Mana Burn will be dealing no damage at all, while other spells are guaranteed to deal damage. That balances the spell out, and it does not in fact make Balance overpowered in any way.
2) Mana Burn is still far under Balance's average dpp, a weak spell for a unique and unlikely situation. Once again, nothing dangerous enough to make Balance overpowered.

I agree with your last phrase, but I strongly disagree with Loremaster being overpowered. Sure, I can agree to a middle point that Unstoppable enchanted Supernovas can be cheap in some situations, but
Loremaster isn't a spell that dramatically exceeds Balance's standards or changes PvP so dramatically that Balance becomes overpowered. So far, every school has one staple spell, such as Storm with their Insane Bolt, Fire with Krampus, Life with Guardian Spirit, Death with Doom and Gloom, Myth with Medusa, and Ice with Frostbite. Balance's staple spell is Loremaster. Every school has a spell that makes other people have difficulty fighting them, but it doesn't make the school overpowered.
In a real PvP situation I wouldn't be using the gear you cited. In a stat to stat comparison you must compare similar gear and as I stated: The divine amulet is an effective amulet with all classes.

Since when do you think somebody would compare a 3 pip minion to a 0 pip minion?
Your original statement had no parameters. You stated balance had the lowest health minion. As I previously stated: if you said balance has the lowest health 3 pip minion you are correct.

1)I am glad you agree because I wasn't arguing that mana burn is overpowered.

2)Mana Burn's dpp is incredibly variable. I don't even know how to calculate an average dpp for the spell.

I agree that every school has a staple spell but I do believe those staple spells should be balanced. That's why you see me arguing for a nerf to Insane Bolt, why I was at the forefront arguing for a nerf to guardian spirit etc

As I have repeatedly stated, I do not want loremaster taken away from the class, simply re balanced.