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Who is OP in PVP, not Balance for sure.

AuthorMessage
Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Sep 27, 2014 wrote:
Hi Eric,

Eric Stormbringer stated:
"Are you honestly stating to me that you see no real difference between a balance wizard who has
full access to his balanced stat school specific gear and another school who must use universal
pack gear and a mastery amulet?"

What I am stating is that it's a balance, you have better stats in certain areas, and it
equals out. Dark magic is blocked by Universal block, is it not.
I am not sure, but does Dark Magic use Universal damage also?
The design of each set of gear is for a certain function, or to give a certain deck
setup an advantage.

Eric STormbringer stated:
"So according to you KI follows no spell design rules that are discernable by the players,
the spells just happen to coincidentally conform to the aforementioned norms?"

What I am saying is that, KI does not have to conform to these rules if they see an
issue. They can change the rules as needed to correct problems, etc. You seem
to be saying, "Hey, they have incorrectly designed this Spell, they can do that".
I am saying, on the other hand, they designed it this way for a reason unknown to
you.

Please see my posting above, which should explain my point of view in more detail.
"Hi Eric,
Maybe I should have stated this in the beginning, which may have explained why I so disagree
with the idea of comparing each and every spell. Plus, why I feel that it really has little
bearing in the pvp side.................."
Veracity Stated:
What I am saying is that, KI does not have to conform to these rules if they see an
issue. They can change the rules as needed to correct problems, etc. You seem
to be saying, "Hey, they have incorrectly designed this Spell, they can do that".
I am saying, on the other hand, they designed it this way for a reason unknown to
you.

Bingo- KI designed a spell that for reasons unknown to the player defies their normal spell design rules. As a player I am pointing out that the spell is overpowered because it defies these norms. Whether they have a reason or not does not change the nature of the spell...it is still overpowered. Hence my argument: Loremaster is overpowered.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 29, 2014 wrote:
Veracity Stated:
What I am saying is that, KI does not have to conform to these rules if they see an
issue. They can change the rules as needed to correct problems, etc. You seem
to be saying, "Hey, they have incorrectly designed this Spell, they can do that".
I am saying, on the other hand, they designed it this way for a reason unknown to
you.

Bingo- KI designed a spell that for reasons unknown to the player defies their normal spell design rules. As a player I am pointing out that the spell is overpowered because it defies these norms. Whether they have a reason or not does not change the nature of the spell...it is still overpowered. Hence my argument: Loremaster is overpowered.
Hi Eric,

Your point is well made, and it does contain solid logic, of that
I cannot argue. However, in my last sentence of this posting,
is my counter to all that you have stated.
I think it sums up all of my postings into one simple line.

My counter to Overpowered LoreMaster.
"Bingo- KI designed a spell that for reasons unknown to the player
defies their normal spell design rules."

> Again, I will state my point of view on this, they have no normal
design set of rules. As the Wizard level up, the rules are constantly
in flux. I expect that Balance is the first to get a growing set of
spells. You are comparing a new set of spells to old rules, imo.
You are generating an old set of rules on a new generation of spells.
This new generation does not need to fit into the old set of rules.
Hence my point, it's not an overpowered spell, it's a evolution of
the old (norm on) spells.
Plus, since we have no idea of how the game is to evolve, it makes
perfect sense that the reason(s) will always be unknown for some time
to come.

"As a player I am pointing out that the spell is overpowered because
it defies these norms."

> Key point, I feel you are limiting the growth of spells, by stating
a norm, that would limit the growth of spells. Example, what if all
spells in the evolution of spells have two aftereffects? What if
all have three aftereffects and more power? What if the spells adds
a may-cast talent to the spell (on top of the spell)? Spells are
expected to evolve as our players rise in Level. Do they need to
evolve in a linear fashion? What about Critical, it doubled the
impact of a spell. I would certainly call that a non-linear jump.
I guess, I just don't see any reason why a spell has to follow any
rules of the past low level spells, as the game evolves.

"Whether they have a reason or not does not change the nature of the
spell...it is still overpowered. Hence my argument: Loremaster is overpowered."

> Yes, this is really, in my eyes, why we disagree to the degree that
we do. Lets for a monment ignore the bias in the game "between wizards",
and that does seem to always play a magnified part.
Lets say a fire, Ice and Myth Wizard's overall stats are at 45%.
Storm is a little above sittng at 47%.
Life, Death are sitting at 44%, while Balance sit's at 39%.
We bring all Wizards up to 55%, but wait, Balance goes up 16% with
that spell, it's considered Overpowered, but it's not. All it has
done is bring that wizard up to the required needed Level. Hence,
the spell appears to be overpowered, but creates a more even Balance.
This was not the case with Guardian Spirit and was clearly not the
case when they nerfed my Storm. Both spells created an imbalance,
and needed to be nerfed. Not so with LoreMaster, to nerf it would
unbalance the equilibrium, imo.

Therefore, only a spell that unbalances the equilibrium is Overpowered, and needs to be nerfed.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
William Dawncloud on Sep 29, 2014 wrote:
about your last remark
try playing fire without efreet, power link, krampus or fire elf, its almost impossible
this can be said with just about all schools theres normally a few core spells that contribute to were the school stands and balance happened to get some of the best spells to make up its core and btw trust me i'm not hating on balance in my posts cause i have a balance of my own that i have loremaster and paw on (lvl 61) but it is certainly one of the easiest schools to play
First of all, nobody complained about Fire Elf, Krampus or even Efreet. What my point is is that if Loremaster is overpowered, then Power Link is too.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 29, 2014 wrote:
Glad you bought up Link/Power Link because those are more examples of great spells that are well balanced. Power Link is a 4 pip spell with one added effect(a heal over time). Its damage per pip is actually below fire's average for single target attack spells which confirms perfectly to sacrificing dpp for an effect.(The average is perfectly represented with brimstone revenant which is 110 dpp). It also has a higher dpp than krampus which is a fire spell with an effect which also conforms it to the rules of spell design in which DoTs have a higher dpp than single target spells. As you can see Power Link is actually perfectly balanced, unlike loremaster.

Ra as I have already demonstrated follows the rules: The higher the pip cost the higher the dpp. Sandstorm deals 69 dpp. Power Nova deals 67 dpp(conforms to the rules of sacrificing dpp for an effect). Ra deals 75 dpp conforming to a higher dpp for higher pip cost spell. That is exactly how it should be, Ra is a perfectly balanced spell.
I was waiting for you to contradict yourself there. Power Link is not balanced if you claim that Loremaster is overpowered. If you're taking Fire's dpp from a 4 pip spell, then let's introduce you to Spectral Blast. Ah, a spell that does 365, 440, or 550 damage. Much higher chance of doing more damage than Loremaster. Spectral Blast does either 91 dpp, 110 dpp, or 137 dpp. Loremaster's weakest hit can do up to 160 less damage than Spectral Blast, and at max 105 more damage than Spectral Blast. Spectral Blast has no effect and does more damage most of the time (~75% more of the time).

Power Link has 2 after effects. A DoT and a HoT. Much like Loremaster's 65% of the time useless Black Mantle and the 20% Weakness. Power Link can be enchanted to either heal more or hurt more. It does more damage than Krampus because it is a DoT, heals nearly as much as Sprite's heal, and Fire wizards have a massive critical rating. Krampus has one after effect and does less damage than Power Link with a 55% chance of the after effect being useless and is a single hit. In other words, if you were to say Loremaster is overpowered, go ahead and complain about Power Link while you're at it. To me, Loremaster is stable with Balance's dpp.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Sep 29, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

I don't fee the spells themselves have to be balanced, it's the overall growth and balance
of each Wizard that is important, not the spells themselves.

I agree, with Life's other spells, Guardian Spirit, Spinysaur (for 1350 a huge hit for Life),
Gnomest (sp?) and it's double life dispel, are excellent spells. Plus when added to Life's ability
to outheal anyone if the game, this Wizard becomes extremely hard to bring down.
Take all of them into consideration, plus add in the excellent gear (with excellent Accuracy and pips),
and you have a Wizard that can stand toe to toe with any Wizard in the game.

I feel that you can do this same thing with any Wizard in the game.

Exactly my point, each wizard with all the tools, gear, etc, are very close to being balanced.
How can I say this, just watch any high level match in Ranked. When you see two different
Wizards (Life and Fire, Death and Life, Ice and Fire, Storm and anyone, Balance and Storm,
etc, and when they come down to 400 life versus 600 life for the final round, that tells me
the game is darn close to being balanced.

Some can look at Ice and say, well they seem under-Powered, if you look at them this way.
Where I feel the stuns for Ice and Myth give a huge advantage, they can be game changers
very quickly.

Again, I have to believe that with Balance inability to stack natural blades or Traps,
having no DOT, etc as PvPKing has stated, they have enough weakness to require
LoreMaster. Their shields may cover three schools, but they are only 50%, and with Dark
Magic, that's not good. Plus you have schools (some do need the amulet) that can steal
it's heals. Once a heal has been taken, the Balance has lost pips and a heal, and often can't
recover. Not to mention the number of players that are now setting for Balance, even Balance
is doing it.
Plus the heals are over time, which means if we get into trouble, it's much harder for
use to get out of it. We have to heal early, taking away any advantage we may have
had.
I really have to say, contrary to all the hype, that Balance needs a OP attack
(as it has been termed) to keep even with the other schools. All schools can
adjust to Mana Burn and to Super Nova, which makes them situational in almost
every fight. Example, try using Mana Burn from second, you can lose five pips,
and do absolutely no damage. Even from first, the other wizard can still use their pips
after you have taken them. Plus, this spells become even less effective, with the
number of dispels that everyone carries for Balance.
I won't even start to go into how many times I have been displelled this
weekend (but that's a different issue).

(Please note, I did use the term OP attack, I may be sick for days now... )
Of course the overall growth and balance of wizards is important. One of the most important ways to ensure that is through the balance of spells as this is a spell oriented game. Allowing a component of one school to become unbalanced creates an unbalanced arena experience. You see this now with balance(due to an unbalanced spell). You saw it in zafaria-azteca with ice(due to unbalanced gear). This is why it is so important to arena health that we swiftly and quickly inform KI of said imbalances.

If you watch the entirety of ranked you can see one school clearly pulling ahead in max lvl PvP and that school is balance. You can clearly see this at all upper arena ranks, the leaderboards and even in how players are structuring their set-ups(the massive anti-balance deck structures you point out). Every school has weaknesses and spells that counter some of their mechanics. The fact that balance has weaknesses(like every other school) does not justify the extreme power of loremaster.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Sep 29, 2014 wrote:
Hi Eric,

Your point is well made, and it does contain solid logic, of that
I cannot argue. However, in my last sentence of this posting,
is my counter to all that you have stated.
I think it sums up all of my postings into one simple line.

My counter to Overpowered LoreMaster.
"Bingo- KI designed a spell that for reasons unknown to the player
defies their normal spell design rules."

> Again, I will state my point of view on this, they have no normal
design set of rules. As the Wizard level up, the rules are constantly
in flux. I expect that Balance is the first to get a growing set of
spells. You are comparing a new set of spells to old rules, imo.
You are generating an old set of rules on a new generation of spells.
This new generation does not need to fit into the old set of rules.
Hence my point, it's not an overpowered spell, it's a evolution of
the old (norm on) spells.
Plus, since we have no idea of how the game is to evolve, it makes
perfect sense that the reason(s) will always be unknown for some time
to come.

"As a player I am pointing out that the spell is overpowered because
it defies these norms."

> Key point, I feel you are limiting the growth of spells, by stating
a norm, that would limit the growth of spells. Example, what if all
spells in the evolution of spells have two aftereffects? What if
all have three aftereffects and more power? What if the spells adds
a may-cast talent to the spell (on top of the spell)? Spells are
expected to evolve as our players rise in Level. Do they need to
evolve in a linear fashion? What about Critical, it doubled the
impact of a spell. I would certainly call that a non-linear jump.
I guess, I just don't see any reason why a spell has to follow any
rules of the past low level spells, as the game evolves.

"Whether they have a reason or not does not change the nature of the
spell...it is still overpowered. Hence my argument: Loremaster is overpowered."

> Yes, this is really, in my eyes, why we disagree to the degree that
we do. Lets for a monment ignore the bias in the game "between wizards",
and that does seem to always play a magnified part.
Lets say a fire, Ice and Myth Wizard's overall stats are at 45%.
Storm is a little above sittng at 47%.
Life, Death are sitting at 44%, while Balance sit's at 39%.
We bring all Wizards up to 55%, but wait, Balance goes up 16% with
that spell, it's considered Overpowered, but it's not. All it has
done is bring that wizard up to the required needed Level. Hence,
the spell appears to be overpowered, but creates a more even Balance.
This was not the case with Guardian Spirit and was clearly not the
case when they nerfed my Storm. Both spells created an imbalance,
and needed to be nerfed. Not so with LoreMaster, to nerf it would
unbalance the equilibrium, imo.

Therefore, only a spell that unbalances the equilibrium is Overpowered, and needs to be nerfed.
"Again, I will state my point of view on this, they have no normal
design set of rules. As the Wizard level up, the rules are constantly
in flux"

That's the thing, the rules are not constantly in flux. Every lvl increase the rules have remained consistent through numerous spell updates. That is why when spells defy these rules they stand out and usually cause problems in the arena.

I expect that Balance is the first to get a growing set of
spells. You are comparing a new set of spells to old rules, imo.
You are generating an old set of rules on a new generation of spells.
This new generation does not need to fit into the old set of rules.
Hence my point, it's not an overpowered spell, it's a evolution of
the old (norm on) spells.

If this is the case then I am curious why they gave this new generation of spell to one school and made it a spell obtained from a side activity.The implementation makes this scenario highly unlikely and points more towards loremaster being an anomalous spell than a new generation type spell.

Key point, I feel you are limiting the growth of spells, by stating
a norm, that would limit the growth of spells. Example, what if all
spells in the evolution of spells have two aftereffects? What if
all have three aftereffects and more power? What if the spells adds
a may-cast talent to the spell (on top of the spell)? Spells are
expected to evolve as our players rise in Level. Do they need to
evolve in a linear fashion? What about Critical, it doubled the
impact of a spell. I would certainly call that a non-linear jump.
I guess, I just don't see any reason why a spell has to follow any
rules of the past low level spells, as the game evolves.

The rules haven't limited the growth of spells before. Why would they limit them now? Spells do not need to evolve in a linear fashion but he do need to evolve consistently. What loremaster has done is akin to if KI introduced critical and critical block for one school.

Therefore, only a spell that unbalances the equilibrium is Overpowered, and needs to be nerfed.

When does a spell unbalance the equilibrium in your opinion? Both wildbolt and guardian spirit rocked the boat because they began to defy spell rules(wildbolt by defying the accuracy for damage rule, guardian spirit by healing far more per pip than any spell in the game along with having only one counter mechanic) Loremaster also defies spell design rules, I am curious as to why this does not qualify for you.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 30, 2014 wrote:
"Again, I will state my point of view on this, they have no normal
design set of rules. As the Wizard level up, the rules are constantly
in flux"

That's the thing, the rules are not constantly in flux. Every lvl increase the rules have remained consistent through numerous spell updates. That is why when spells defy these rules they stand out and usually cause problems in the arena.

I expect that Balance is the first to get a growing set of
spells. You are comparing a new set of spells to old rules, imo.
You are generating an old set of rules on a new generation of spells.
This new generation does not need to fit into the old set of rules.
Hence my point, it's not an overpowered spell, it's a evolution of
the old (norm on) spells.

If this is the case then I am curious why they gave this new generation of spell to one school and made it a spell obtained from a side activity.The implementation makes this scenario highly unlikely and points more towards loremaster being an anomalous spell than a new generation type spell.

Key point, I feel you are limiting the growth of spells, by stating
a norm, that would limit the growth of spells. Example, what if all
spells in the evolution of spells have two aftereffects? What if
all have three aftereffects and more power? What if the spells adds
a may-cast talent to the spell (on top of the spell)? Spells are
expected to evolve as our players rise in Level. Do they need to
evolve in a linear fashion? What about Critical, it doubled the
impact of a spell. I would certainly call that a non-linear jump.
I guess, I just don't see any reason why a spell has to follow any
rules of the past low level spells, as the game evolves.

The rules haven't limited the growth of spells before. Why would they limit them now? Spells do not need to evolve in a linear fashion but he do need to evolve consistently. What loremaster has done is akin to if KI introduced critical and critical block for one school.

Therefore, only a spell that unbalances the equilibrium is Overpowered, and needs to be nerfed.

When does a spell unbalance the equilibrium in your opinion? Both wildbolt and guardian spirit rocked the boat because they began to defy spell rules(wildbolt by defying the accuracy for damage rule, guardian spirit by healing far more per pip than any spell in the game along with having only one counter mechanic) Loremaster also defies spell design rules, I am curious as to why this does not qualify for you.
Well Eric,

I guess neither of us will convince the other, and
the conversation could last a century (or less).

I appears to me that we are both traveling the same path,
and have stopped to rest at the 100 mile mark.
You are looking at the place where we have stopped, and
the path we have traveled.
I am looking at the place where we have stopped, and the
path we have yet to travel.

Best Regards,
The Scarecrow.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
PvP King on Sep 29, 2014 wrote:
First of all, nobody complained about Fire Elf, Krampus or even Efreet. What my point is is that if Loremaster is overpowered, then Power Link is too.
PvP King,

I know you have already hashed this out, but I would just like to add some additional fuel.
Along that same line of thought, how about Wild Bolt, still at an average of ~165 per pip, and Insane
bolt at 500 per pips, they don't follow any linear rule. As Eric stated, it's been proven that it
is unlikely to get you to Warlord. On the other hand, I know of several Warlords that have used nothing
but shields and Insane Bolt to get there. Plus with a winning record of almost 2 to 1. I'm not sure that
any one test proves anything, as far as Insane Bolt goes.

The Scarecrow.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Veracity8 on Sep 30, 2014 wrote:
PvP King,

I know you have already hashed this out, but I would just like to add some additional fuel.
Along that same line of thought, how about Wild Bolt, still at an average of ~165 per pip, and Insane
bolt at 500 per pips, they don't follow any linear rule. As Eric stated, it's been proven that it
is unlikely to get you to Warlord. On the other hand, I know of several Warlords that have used nothing
but shields and Insane Bolt to get there. Plus with a winning record of almost 2 to 1. I'm not sure that
any one test proves anything, as far as Insane Bolt goes.

The Scarecrow.
This is how I understand Insane Bolt so far: Every time I cast it, it hits myself. Every time somebody casts it on me, it hits me. Every time somebody fizzles it, it hits me. When I'm just spectating a match, it hits me.

On the less exaggerative side of things, I find Insane Bolt a very spammable spell now. It gets used on me several times, and 1/10 times it self hits. I do know some Warlords who use Insane Bolt the first turn and use Triton the next, it's been done on my Storm wizard too. Most of the time it will win you a match, and that's why I believe Storm is overpowered in today's age of PvP.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Sep 29, 2014 wrote:
I was waiting for you to contradict yourself there. Power Link is not balanced if you claim that Loremaster is overpowered. If you're taking Fire's dpp from a 4 pip spell, then let's introduce you to Spectral Blast. Ah, a spell that does 365, 440, or 550 damage. Much higher chance of doing more damage than Loremaster. Spectral Blast does either 91 dpp, 110 dpp, or 137 dpp. Loremaster's weakest hit can do up to 160 less damage than Spectral Blast, and at max 105 more damage than Spectral Blast. Spectral Blast has no effect and does more damage most of the time (~75% more of the time).

Power Link has 2 after effects. A DoT and a HoT. Much like Loremaster's 65% of the time useless Black Mantle and the 20% Weakness. Power Link can be enchanted to either heal more or hurt more. It does more damage than Krampus because it is a DoT, heals nearly as much as Sprite's heal, and Fire wizards have a massive critical rating. Krampus has one after effect and does less damage than Power Link with a 55% chance of the after effect being useless and is a single hit. In other words, if you were to say Loremaster is overpowered, go ahead and complain about Power Link while you're at it. To me, Loremaster is stable with Balance's dpp.
Contradict myself? Did you actually read my prior post? A DoT isn't a type of effect, it is a type of spell. There is only one spell that has a DoT aftereffect in the game and that is avenging fossil. Power Link/Link is a DoT with one aftereffect a Heal Over time. Krampus is also a spell with one effect but unlike Power Link it is a single hit and not a DoT which explains perfectly why Power Link does more damage than Krampus. Furthermore looking at Brimstone Revenant you will notice that it does more dpp than either spell with no effect which also conforms to spell design rules. So Power Link: DoT with one effect that is below the dpp for that school. Loremaster Single hit spell with 2 effects that is above the dpp for that school. Power Link is perfectly balanced, Loremaster is not.

Now let us look at spectral blast: Spectral blast is a spell that does not draw on the balance school's dpp, it draws from one of the elemental schools dpp. This is why it matches perfectly the dpp of the other schools 4 pip spell.

Spectral Blast Ice: 365 Compared to Wyvern 335-395(average 365)
Spectral Blast Fire: 440 Compared to Burning Revanant 440
Spectral Blast Storm: 550 Compared to Kraken 520-580(average 550)

This is why spell analysis comes in handy ;)

Once again you are denying the math, Loremaster is not stable with balance dpp as the math clearly demonstrates much as Ra is not underpowered.....as the math clearly demonstrates.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Sep 30, 2014 wrote:
PvP King,

I know you have already hashed this out, but I would just like to add some additional fuel.
Along that same line of thought, how about Wild Bolt, still at an average of ~165 per pip, and Insane
bolt at 500 per pips, they don't follow any linear rule. As Eric stated, it's been proven that it
is unlikely to get you to Warlord. On the other hand, I know of several Warlords that have used nothing
but shields and Insane Bolt to get there. Plus with a winning record of almost 2 to 1. I'm not sure that
any one test proves anything, as far as Insane Bolt goes.

The Scarecrow.
Its a good thing that these kind of spells are already addressed in spell design as I already pointed out.

Wild Bolt pays for its exceptional damage by having a 67% chance to become the lowest damaging 2 pip spell in the game.

Insane Bolt pays for its exceptional damage by having a 20% chance to instantly kill the caster.

In other words these 2 spells pay for their dpp with high levels of risk. Lets look at Loremaster

Loremaster pays for its exceptional damage and 2 effects by....

Lower accuracy like ninja pigs? Nope
Lower damage per pip like luminous weaver? Nope
Risk factors like wild bolt and insane bolt? Nope
Dependent effects like Supernova? Nope
Higher cost like Lord of Winter? Nope

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
Its a good thing that these kind of spells are already addressed in spell design as I already pointed out.

Wild Bolt pays for its exceptional damage by having a 67% chance to become the lowest damaging 2 pip spell in the game.

Insane Bolt pays for its exceptional damage by having a 20% chance to instantly kill the caster.

In other words these 2 spells pay for their dpp with high levels of risk. Lets look at Loremaster

Loremaster pays for its exceptional damage and 2 effects by....

Lower accuracy like ninja pigs? Nope
Lower damage per pip like luminous weaver? Nope
Risk factors like wild bolt and insane bolt? Nope
Dependent effects like Supernova? Nope
Higher cost like Lord of Winter? Nope
>Isn't this exactly where this posting started, Storm is Overpowered, not
>Balance?

Wild Bolt pays for its exceptional damage by having a 67% chance to become
the lowest damaging 2 pip spell in the game.
But with Storms high critical, high damage, and high pierce even the 10
or 100 when enchanted become solid damage.
Not to mention, when it does hit high at 1000, you looking at damage
up near 2500 for 2 pips. No other spell in the game can do this for
just two pips and be spammed. Plus, it has a 33% chance of hitting,
and even if it doesn't it removes weakness, shields, and still does damage.
The fact remains, this is spammable on a constant basis.

Insane Bolt pays for its exceptional damage by having a 20% chance to instantly
kill the caster.
Which means that it can do ~2500 in each hit for 80% of the time. That is
just incredible, which means that the odds are with me, to win each and
every match, just using this one spell. Again for just two pips,
and you don't call this spell OverPowered, which it clearly is.
I have friends that have just spammed this and won more than
80% of their battles. Yes, anyone can say "Well they have no skill"
but does that matter when they can do this consistanty?
Try spamming LoreMaster from second and see how many matches you win.
(I don't spam btw, not that kind of player).

Loremaster pays for its exceptional damage and 2 effects by....
Lower accuracy like ninja pigs? Nope
Lower damage per pip like luminous weaver? Nope
Risk factors like wild bolt and insane bolt? Nope
Dependent effects like Supernova? Nope
Higher cost like Lord of Winter? Nope
This is from memory, so if I am wrong, please correct me.
lets look at Sabertooth, that has an average of 105 dpp, and
one "non" reduced aftereffect.
Some spells are lower, some are about this dpp for Balance.
Ok, lets look at LoreMaster, it has a average of 107 dpp with
two REDUCED aftereffects. A reduced weakness at -20, which allows
80 of the damage to get through. Plus a -35 Accuracy which
allows the spell to fizzle only about 1/3 of the time. Combined,
they can be removed with one wand. Yes, an average 2 dpp hit stronger
than Saber, but it has two weaker aftereffects. Not a spell that
I would call all that Overpowered. Especially when I compare that
to Storm. Plus it should be noted the higher 2dpp is only for 4 pips.
Not the 10 pips and increased damage that Sabertooth does.
Did it ever occure to anyone that maybe Balance needed this spell,
in this +2dpp design, to stay even in PvP?

Your friend,
The Scarecrow.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Hi Eric,

Finally, let me address the magical numbers that I discussed, that
you stated (as I remember) you were not sure what I was talking about.
When I took my first intro course into Game design, my High school
Instructor had a direct hand in the devolopement of several games that
are currently still being played on the Web. As we discussed game
design, we got into Databases, and all of their function in the game.

Games keep track of what is happening in the game, so that the designers
know how to evolve and change the game. They may add information to the
database, as the game evolves. The players will never see this type of
information, as they don't need it, but the designers need it to
keep the game balanced (hence I expect for 2ppd more for LoreMaster).
Considering that KI most likely has these databases and this information,
I expect they understand what is happening in the game far more than we do.
Hence the reason that they have changed certain spells, and never changed
others, no matter how much people complain. Why, to keep a balance that
is needed in the game, even if we can't see it.
Balance is climbing the Charts according to you, but that does not mean
that LoreMaster is the key. It could very well be that these Balance
players have used Manaburn effectively in combinations with their other
spells. Plus, you have no idea how many Balance are in the game, and in
PVP. It could very well be that just a huge number of players have brought
up a Balance Player (and that is very likely based on what I am seeing).
When you have 5 Balance players to 1 other wizard in pvp, I would expect
them to be climing the charts. This would also make sense, since everyone
is setting for Balance.

The Scarecrow.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
Contradict myself? Did you actually read my prior post? A DoT isn't a type of effect, it is a type of spell. There is only one spell that has a DoT aftereffect in the game and that is avenging fossil. Power Link/Link is a DoT with one aftereffect a Heal Over time. Krampus is also a spell with one effect but unlike Power Link it is a single hit and not a DoT which explains perfectly why Power Link does more damage than Krampus. Furthermore looking at Brimstone Revenant you will notice that it does more dpp than either spell with no effect which also conforms to spell design rules. So Power Link: DoT with one effect that is below the dpp for that school. Loremaster Single hit spell with 2 effects that is above the dpp for that school. Power Link is perfectly balanced, Loremaster is not.

Now let us look at spectral blast: Spectral blast is a spell that does not draw on the balance school's dpp, it draws from one of the elemental schools dpp. This is why it matches perfectly the dpp of the other schools 4 pip spell.

Spectral Blast Ice: 365 Compared to Wyvern 335-395(average 365)
Spectral Blast Fire: 440 Compared to Burning Revanant 440
Spectral Blast Storm: 550 Compared to Kraken 520-580(average 550)

This is why spell analysis comes in handy ;)

Once again you are denying the math, Loremaster is not stable with balance dpp as the math clearly demonstrates much as Ra is not underpowered.....as the math clearly demonstrates.
You still haven't given me a reason as to why Spectral Blast does more damage than Loremaster and gives no effect. The 550 damage is an average of Storm's spell Kraken, which is far more damage per pip than Balance's spells. The Fire hit still does more than Loremaster most of the time and has Fire's damage per pip. The Ice hit does less than Loremaster but is only casted 33.33% of the time, which means 66.66% of the time Spectral Blast is doing more damage than Loremaster, and if you include the chances that Loremaster has to hit 390, 395, 400, 405, 410, 415, 420, 425, 430, 435, 440, 445, 450, 455, 460, 465, 470, you'll find that Spectral Blast is doing more damage than Loremaster over 75% of the time.

You can't really compare Spectral Blast to Fire, Ice, or Storm spells either. It's a Balance spell, Balance damage boost effects it, Balanceblades effect it, and Balance critical rating effects it. If you add 365, 440, and 550 and divide it by 3 then divide it by 4, you'll get 112 damage per pip. Could be over, could be less. Now compare all the 5 damage intervals Loremaster has, divide it by 4 for its pip cost and divide it by 17 for the average damage number, that's 107 damage per pip. Spectral Blast on average does more per pip, Brimstone Revenant does more per pip, Kraken does more per pip, heck even Sunbird does more per pip on average than Loremaster. Right now you're denying the math, Spectral Blast is clear structure and adds to Balance's average damage per pip, with that, Loremaster lies inside Balance's damage per pip spectrum, whether it's high up there or not.

And yes, a DoT is an after effect. The initial hit is what the spell naturally does, the DoT is what it leaves off. Same goes with a HoT such as Availing Hands or Regenerate; the initial heal is the first heal and anything after that is the after effect. If you want this in simpler language, just ask yourself this: Since when is removing weaknesses, infections, shields, dealing damage, and healing not overpowered all in one move? Loremaster does damage and weakens the opponent, Power Link and Link remove any non-stacked debuff on you and lets you heal freely, attack on no shields, or use it again. What's overpowered again?

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
>Isn't this exactly where this posting started, Storm is Overpowered, not
>Balance?

Wild Bolt pays for its exceptional damage by having a 67% chance to become
the lowest damaging 2 pip spell in the game.
But with Storms high critical, high damage, and high pierce even the 10
or 100 when enchanted become solid damage.
Not to mention, when it does hit high at 1000, you looking at damage
up near 2500 for 2 pips. No other spell in the game can do this for
just two pips and be spammed. Plus, it has a 33% chance of hitting,
and even if it doesn't it removes weakness, shields, and still does damage.
The fact remains, this is spammable on a constant basis.

Insane Bolt pays for its exceptional damage by having a 20% chance to instantly
kill the caster.
Which means that it can do ~2500 in each hit for 80% of the time. That is
just incredible, which means that the odds are with me, to win each and
every match, just using this one spell. Again for just two pips,
and you don't call this spell OverPowered, which it clearly is.
I have friends that have just spammed this and won more than
80% of their battles. Yes, anyone can say "Well they have no skill"
but does that matter when they can do this consistanty?
Try spamming LoreMaster from second and see how many matches you win.
(I don't spam btw, not that kind of player).

Loremaster pays for its exceptional damage and 2 effects by....
Lower accuracy like ninja pigs? Nope
Lower damage per pip like luminous weaver? Nope
Risk factors like wild bolt and insane bolt? Nope
Dependent effects like Supernova? Nope
Higher cost like Lord of Winter? Nope
This is from memory, so if I am wrong, please correct me.
lets look at Sabertooth, that has an average of 105 dpp, and
one "non" reduced aftereffect.
Some spells are lower, some are about this dpp for Balance.
Ok, lets look at LoreMaster, it has a average of 107 dpp with
two REDUCED aftereffects. A reduced weakness at -20, which allows
80 of the damage to get through. Plus a -35 Accuracy which
allows the spell to fizzle only about 1/3 of the time. Combined,
they can be removed with one wand. Yes, an average 2 dpp hit stronger
than Saber, but it has two weaker aftereffects. Not a spell that
I would call all that Overpowered. Especially when I compare that
to Storm. Plus it should be noted the higher 2dpp is only for 4 pips.
Not the 10 pips and increased damage that Sabertooth does.
Did it ever occure to anyone that maybe Balance needed this spell,
in this +2dpp design, to stay even in PvP?

Your friend,
The Scarecrow.
But with Storms high critical, high damage, and high pierce even the 10
or 100 when enchanted become solid damage.
Not to mention, when it does hit high at 1000, you looking at damage
up near 2500 for 2 pips. No other spell in the game can do this for
just two pips and be spammed. Plus, it has a 33% chance of hitting,
and even if it doesn't it removes weakness, shields, and still does damage.
The fact remains, this is spammable on a constant basis


Exactly, wild bolt has a powerful effect but pays the price for it by 67% of the time dealing far less damage than any other 2 pip spell. Any 2 pip attack spell is extremely spammable, removes weaknesses and removes shields. The fact remains that the majority of the time any other school will out damage a storm spamming wildbolt by spamming their 2 pip spell.

Which means that it can do ~2500 in each hit for 80% of the time. That is
just incredible, which means that the odds are with me, to win each and
every match, just using this one spell. Again for just two pips,
and you don't call this spell OverPowered, which it clearly is.

I don't call this spell overpowered? Here is a link to an interesting article by this guy named Eric Stormbringer, it was written three years ago: Insane Bolt: A complete analysis from a 1v1 PvP perspective. In it this guy named Eric Stormbringer used Spell analysis to make an argument that a particular spell was overpowered and would cause problems in the arena. Sound familiar?

Sabertooth is a higher pip spell and thus warrants a higher dpp than average(like all the other 10 pip spells) Even then Loremaster(a lower pip spell) still does more dpp than it while adding 2 additional effects. Yes that is indeed overpowered.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
Hi Eric,

Finally, let me address the magical numbers that I discussed, that
you stated (as I remember) you were not sure what I was talking about.
When I took my first intro course into Game design, my High school
Instructor had a direct hand in the devolopement of several games that
are currently still being played on the Web. As we discussed game
design, we got into Databases, and all of their function in the game.

Games keep track of what is happening in the game, so that the designers
know how to evolve and change the game. They may add information to the
database, as the game evolves. The players will never see this type of
information, as they don't need it, but the designers need it to
keep the game balanced (hence I expect for 2ppd more for LoreMaster).
Considering that KI most likely has these databases and this information,
I expect they understand what is happening in the game far more than we do.
Hence the reason that they have changed certain spells, and never changed
others, no matter how much people complain. Why, to keep a balance that
is needed in the game, even if we can't see it.
Balance is climbing the Charts according to you, but that does not mean
that LoreMaster is the key. It could very well be that these Balance
players have used Manaburn effectively in combinations with their other
spells. Plus, you have no idea how many Balance are in the game, and in
PVP. It could very well be that just a huge number of players have brought
up a Balance Player (and that is very likely based on what I am seeing).
When you have 5 Balance players to 1 other wizard in pvp, I would expect
them to be climing the charts. This would also make sense, since everyone
is setting for Balance.

The Scarecrow.
Neither you nor I have access to these numbers. My argument is independent of these numbers and illustrates a fact I feel should be addressed. Once again the reasoning behind Loremaster being overpowered isn't something my arguments attempt to address. I simply point out that it is indeed overpowered.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
You still haven't given me a reason as to why Spectral Blast does more damage than Loremaster and gives no effect. The 550 damage is an average of Storm's spell Kraken, which is far more damage per pip than Balance's spells. The Fire hit still does more than Loremaster most of the time and has Fire's damage per pip. The Ice hit does less than Loremaster but is only casted 33.33% of the time, which means 66.66% of the time Spectral Blast is doing more damage than Loremaster, and if you include the chances that Loremaster has to hit 390, 395, 400, 405, 410, 415, 420, 425, 430, 435, 440, 445, 450, 455, 460, 465, 470, you'll find that Spectral Blast is doing more damage than Loremaster over 75% of the time.

You can't really compare Spectral Blast to Fire, Ice, or Storm spells either. It's a Balance spell, Balance damage boost effects it, Balanceblades effect it, and Balance critical rating effects it. If you add 365, 440, and 550 and divide it by 3 then divide it by 4, you'll get 112 damage per pip. Could be over, could be less. Now compare all the 5 damage intervals Loremaster has, divide it by 4 for its pip cost and divide it by 17 for the average damage number, that's 107 damage per pip. Spectral Blast on average does more per pip, Brimstone Revenant does more per pip, Kraken does more per pip, heck even Sunbird does more per pip on average than Loremaster. Right now you're denying the math, Spectral Blast is clear structure and adds to Balance's average damage per pip, with that, Loremaster lies inside Balance's damage per pip spectrum, whether it's high up there or not.

And yes, a DoT is an after effect. The initial hit is what the spell naturally does, the DoT is what it leaves off. Same goes with a HoT such as Availing Hands or Regenerate; the initial heal is the first heal and anything after that is the after effect. If you want this in simpler language, just ask yourself this: Since when is removing weaknesses, infections, shields, dealing damage, and healing not overpowered all in one move? Loremaster does damage and weakens the opponent, Power Link and Link remove any non-stacked debuff on you and lets you heal freely, attack on no shields, or use it again. What's overpowered again?
Yes I have given you a reason, because Spectral blast deals the associated elemental school damage not balance damage and borrows its dpp from the other schools 4 pip spells.... as I have clearly illustrated. Yes it is a balance spell but it deals storm,fire and ice damage which is why it perfectly borrows the associated school's dpp.... as I have clearly illustrated. Yes Fire and Storm do more per pip on average with no effect and Spectral Blast does more per pip because it draws on the elemental school's dpp. This is as it should be. Loremaster does above dpp for a balance damage spell.

As to the nature of DoTs: Consult Diego's tutorial video that goes over the different types of spells. As has clearly been demonstrated numerous times in game DoTs are one of the four fundamental attack spell types in wizard 101. These spell types are Single Hit Attack, AoE, DoT and drain. It is not overpowered in one move because that one move pays a price for its effects(lower dpp and hpp) while loremaster does not.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
Neither you nor I have access to these numbers. My argument is independent of these numbers and illustrates a fact I feel should be addressed. Once again the reasoning behind Loremaster being overpowered isn't something my arguments attempt to address. I simply point out that it is indeed overpowered.
Well Eric,

That is my point, if we don't have the data, then no reasonable explanation can be generated as
to why LoreMaster has an average of 2dpp more than you would like it too. Since we don't have
the data, we cannot know why KI did this design. Therefore, while you are stating it does not
follow the rules that you have calculated, I on the other hand believe it must be, for a logical reason.

Yes, a very logical reason, which I doubt is a simple mistake. If it was done for a logical reason,
then it does not constitute being called an overpowered spell, "for Balance".

Has KI not address errors in the past fairly quickly, in a very reasonable amount of time. When they
do not address a perceived issue, does it not stay that way no matter how many complaints?
Remember the complaints on Heckhound, Shatter, Mana Burn, Snow Angel, etc....
The Complaints had no effect whatsoever, and shatter was clearly a huge game changer.
So much so that I remember reading that one of the site banned it in their matches.

If your calling a 2dpp advantage and having two "reduced/weakened" side effects an OverPowered spell,
then I consider it a very, very small or minor overpowering of that spell.

I also feel that you are completely wrong on Insane Bolt, that spell is clearly a game changer, and imo,
is clearly overpowered. When any school can take you out in three rounds, from second, it's
overpowered, no question about it.

The Scarecrow.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
But with Storms high critical, high damage, and high pierce even the 10
or 100 when enchanted become solid damage.
Not to mention, when it does hit high at 1000, you looking at damage
up near 2500 for 2 pips. No other spell in the game can do this for
just two pips and be spammed. Plus, it has a 33% chance of hitting,
and even if it doesn't it removes weakness, shields, and still does damage.
The fact remains, this is spammable on a constant basis


Exactly, wild bolt has a powerful effect but pays the price for it by 67% of the time dealing far less damage than any other 2 pip spell. Any 2 pip attack spell is extremely spammable, removes weaknesses and removes shields. The fact remains that the majority of the time any other school will out damage a storm spamming wildbolt by spamming their 2 pip spell.

Which means that it can do ~2500 in each hit for 80% of the time. That is
just incredible, which means that the odds are with me, to win each and
every match, just using this one spell. Again for just two pips,
and you don't call this spell OverPowered, which it clearly is.

I don't call this spell overpowered? Here is a link to an interesting article by this guy named Eric Stormbringer, it was written three years ago: Insane Bolt: A complete analysis from a 1v1 PvP perspective. In it this guy named Eric Stormbringer used Spell analysis to make an argument that a particular spell was overpowered and would cause problems in the arena. Sound familiar?

Sabertooth is a higher pip spell and thus warrants a higher dpp than average(like all the other 10 pip spells) Even then Loremaster(a lower pip spell) still does more dpp than it while adding 2 additional effects. Yes that is indeed overpowered.
Hi Eric,

I stopped over and read your (what I expect is a Probability analysis) on Wild Bolt.
When I say "what I expect is", is because I have never taken a Statisics course, nor
have I taken a Probability college course. So, I have to claim absolute complete
ignroance in this area.

Anyway, from what I understood, it appears that you agree, that Wild bolt is clearly
overpowered in pvp.

Here is my concern in this area, and I feel that this does apply, but to what degree,
I am simply not sure.
Based upon game play that I have seen with Wild Bolt, the expectations that you have listed,
actually diverges from the reality. Whether this is due to random chance or the random
number generator that is being used, I don't know.

Before I continuse, I understand that Statistical analysis can never rule out the possibility
that the results are just due to a random chance. Plus that expectations and results can often
vary, but should come in after a much larger sample is taken.

What I question here is this, I have charted Random Number Generators, and charted the
pattern results form their output. The pattern charts have been over thousand of number,
normally in the area of 10,000 plus. (I actually did a fairly detailed report on random
number generators last year).

There are normally two different random number generator methods (that I know of),
the Physical and the Computational. There are high end generators, like the Fortuna or
the Yarrow Algorithim, but they are normally not used for games.

Anyway, this leads me to the follow question, and I will be very interested in your reply.
Because of a Random Number generator's patterns, can you really do an analysis of
probability on Wild bolt, and have accurate results?

The Scarecrow.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
Yes I have given you a reason, because Spectral blast deals the associated elemental school damage not balance damage and borrows its dpp from the other schools 4 pip spells.... as I have clearly illustrated. Yes it is a balance spell but it deals storm,fire and ice damage which is why it perfectly borrows the associated school's dpp.... as I have clearly illustrated. Yes Fire and Storm do more per pip on average with no effect and Spectral Blast does more per pip because it draws on the elemental school's dpp. This is as it should be. Loremaster does above dpp for a balance damage spell.

As to the nature of DoTs: Consult Diego's tutorial video that goes over the different types of spells. As has clearly been demonstrated numerous times in game DoTs are one of the four fundamental attack spell types in wizard 101. These spell types are Single Hit Attack, AoE, DoT and drain. It is not overpowered in one move because that one move pays a price for its effects(lower dpp and hpp) while loremaster does not.
The fact that Spectral Blast does Elemental damage does not matter. Hydra does Elemental damage, why doesn't it do nearly a thousand like Triton? It does just a little less than the peak of Colossus, 570 damage. It hits Ice, Fire, and Storm, but doesn't function the same way your "rule for Spectral Blast" works. An example of multi hit spells not having reduced damage is by looking at Minotaur and Orthrus. Orthrus does 700 damage (30 less than Stormzilla's max), so you can't say that Hydra does lower damage because it hits 3 times. So if your analysis is supposed to be accurate that Spectral Blast does more damage because it hits Elemental schools, I guess Hydra breaks that rule perfectly; hitting only 95 damage per pip. You can't deny that Spectral Blast increases Balance's dpp, whether it hits Balance damage or not.

A DoT is still considered an after effect, no matter what Diego or anybody says. What does Triage say on its description? Remove one over time effect from Target. Mass Triage is very much the same, and so on. That's clear proof that DoT's (and HoT's) are after effects, not straight up attacks.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 1, 2014 wrote:
Well Eric,

That is my point, if we don't have the data, then no reasonable explanation can be generated as
to why LoreMaster has an average of 2dpp more than you would like it too. Since we don't have
the data, we cannot know why KI did this design. Therefore, while you are stating it does not
follow the rules that you have calculated, I on the other hand believe it must be, for a logical reason.

Yes, a very logical reason, which I doubt is a simple mistake. If it was done for a logical reason,
then it does not constitute being called an overpowered spell, "for Balance".

Has KI not address errors in the past fairly quickly, in a very reasonable amount of time. When they
do not address a perceived issue, does it not stay that way no matter how many complaints?
Remember the complaints on Heckhound, Shatter, Mana Burn, Snow Angel, etc....
The Complaints had no effect whatsoever, and shatter was clearly a huge game changer.
So much so that I remember reading that one of the site banned it in their matches.

If your calling a 2dpp advantage and having two "reduced/weakened" side effects an OverPowered spell,
then I consider it a very, very small or minor overpowering of that spell.

I also feel that you are completely wrong on Insane Bolt, that spell is clearly a game changer, and imo,
is clearly overpowered. When any school can take you out in three rounds, from second, it's
overpowered, no question about it.

The Scarecrow.
Whether their is a logical reason or not does not change the fact that the spell is overpowered. Simply having a reason does not make a spell any less overpowered. This is the argument as is:

Eric: Loremaster is overpowered
Veracity: Loremaster is overpowered for a reason therefore its not overpowered.

That makes about as much sense as this argument:
Person A: Grass is green
Person B: Grass is green for a reason therefore it is not green.

Also loremaster is far above 2dpp on average. Let us compare loremaster to every balance damage single hit, normal accuracy, non-dependent spell in game. Here is my spell analysis for the balance school

Scarab: 85 dpp(balanced)
Scorpion: 90 dpp(balanced)
Locust Swarm: 92 dpp(balanced)
Samoorai: 100 dpp(high end-balanced)
Savage Paw: 100 dpp+effect(rule defiance-overpowered)
Judgement: 100 dpp(high end-balanced)
King Artorious: 91 dpp+2 effects(balanced)
Sabertooth: 105 dpp+1 effect(rule defiance-justified by high pip cost, high end- balanced)

Loremaster:108 dpp+ 2 effects(rule defiance- overpowered)

Also KI has a notorious record of being very slow to change when it comes to spell design.

Finally, I agree with you that insane bolt is overpowered as the article i linked to you describes.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 2, 2014 wrote:
Hi Eric,

I stopped over and read your (what I expect is a Probability analysis) on Wild Bolt.
When I say "what I expect is", is because I have never taken a Statisics course, nor
have I taken a Probability college course. So, I have to claim absolute complete
ignroance in this area.

Anyway, from what I understood, it appears that you agree, that Wild bolt is clearly
overpowered in pvp.

Here is my concern in this area, and I feel that this does apply, but to what degree,
I am simply not sure.
Based upon game play that I have seen with Wild Bolt, the expectations that you have listed,
actually diverges from the reality. Whether this is due to random chance or the random
number generator that is being used, I don't know.

Before I continuse, I understand that Statistical analysis can never rule out the possibility
that the results are just due to a random chance. Plus that expectations and results can often
vary, but should come in after a much larger sample is taken.

What I question here is this, I have charted Random Number Generators, and charted the
pattern results form their output. The pattern charts have been over thousand of number,
normally in the area of 10,000 plus. (I actually did a fairly detailed report on random
number generators last year).

There are normally two different random number generator methods (that I know of),
the Physical and the Computational. There are high end generators, like the Fortuna or
the Yarrow Algorithim, but they are normally not used for games.

Anyway, this leads me to the follow question, and I will be very interested in your reply.
Because of a Random Number generator's patterns, can you really do an analysis of
probability on Wild bolt, and have accurate results?

The Scarecrow.
My article claims insane bolt as overpowered, not wild bolt. Wildbolt is perfectly balanced, insane bolt is not, A random number generators results are indiscernible from true randomness in most cases. Thus for the purposes of evaluation yes it is valid.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 3, 2014 wrote:
My article claims insane bolt as overpowered, not wild bolt. Wildbolt is perfectly balanced, insane bolt is not, A random number generators results are indiscernible from true randomness in most cases. Thus for the purposes of evaluation yes it is valid.
Eric Stormbringer stated:
"A random number generators results are indiscernible from true randomness in most cases."

Eric,

I strongly disagree with this, please read IBM's, Xerox's, or MS writes up on random number
generators. That is clearly not the case, to any degree.

The Scarecrow.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 3, 2014 wrote:
Whether their is a logical reason or not does not change the fact that the spell is overpowered. Simply having a reason does not make a spell any less overpowered. This is the argument as is:

Eric: Loremaster is overpowered
Veracity: Loremaster is overpowered for a reason therefore its not overpowered.

That makes about as much sense as this argument:
Person A: Grass is green
Person B: Grass is green for a reason therefore it is not green.

Also loremaster is far above 2dpp on average. Let us compare loremaster to every balance damage single hit, normal accuracy, non-dependent spell in game. Here is my spell analysis for the balance school

Scarab: 85 dpp(balanced)
Scorpion: 90 dpp(balanced)
Locust Swarm: 92 dpp(balanced)
Samoorai: 100 dpp(high end-balanced)
Savage Paw: 100 dpp+effect(rule defiance-overpowered)
Judgement: 100 dpp(high end-balanced)
King Artorious: 91 dpp+2 effects(balanced)
Sabertooth: 105 dpp+1 effect(rule defiance-justified by high pip cost, high end- balanced)

Loremaster:108 dpp+ 2 effects(rule defiance- overpowered)

Also KI has a notorious record of being very slow to change when it comes to spell design.

Finally, I agree with you that insane bolt is overpowered as the article i linked to you describes.
Eric,

I have no wish to get into a regurgitated discussion, where we rehash the same data.
Unfortunately, that is exactly where this is headed, and I call that a dead end.

On the response of KI on nerfing a spell, I consider their response reasonable, as they need
to have a large enough grouping of information in their databases to make a sound adjustment.

So Loremaster is 107.5 (or 2.5 over what it should be according to you), and has two reduced
side effect (which in my eyes are reduced enough to increase the odds slightly). Certainly not
comparable to Effreets -90 or Bad Juju's -90 or any other solid aftereffect (or non reduced
or weakened aftereffect).

So, in your above example you generating a hypothetical example that supports only your point
of view. It actually has nothing to do with my point of view, and is the exact opposite of what I
am saying. So, please don't attempt to put words in my mouth, by generating an example that has
nothing to do with what I am actually saying.

Let me give you a realistic example of what I am saying,

There are seven beams supporting a bridge. The center beam supports more weight than the
rest of the beams. The center beam's structure is actually very slightly stronger than the rest of the
beams. The center beam can handle two and a half more tons, over the rest of the beams.
Even though the center beam is thicker, it carries more weight, and therefore is carrying the exact
same amount of weight, per each inch of thickness.
Yes, the beam is different, but it does the exact same function in load weight.

The same goes for LoreMaster, if it was designed to fill an issue with Balance, maybe to keep
PvP in a more Balanced state, hence, it is not overpowered. It is there to fill a specific need or
function, and just like the center beam, is needed. What I have stated all along, is that I believe that
KI designed this spell this way for a solid reason, enough said.

On the other hand, if KI nerfs this spell, then my guess is wrong, it's as simple as that.

The Scarecrow.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
PvP King on Sep 29, 2014 wrote:
First of all, nobody complained about Fire Elf, Krampus or even Efreet. What my point is is that if Loremaster is overpowered, then Power Link is too.
PvP King,

I was thinking about this statement, and then it hit me. Everyone is complaining about the
two after effects of LoreMaster, and it's 2.5 per pip extra damage.

Then it hit me, Leviathan has two aftereffects if you think about it, it removes two blades.

Almost all the King Artorius Spells have two aftereffects.

Sirens has two aftereffects, and I question if you wouldn't call it three aftereffects.
Myth has Medusa that has two aftereffects, it stuns you for Two rounds (I've always considered it
overpowered by taking you out for tow solid rounds). Plus the double Medusa taking you would
for four rounds, and so easy to setup and do.

Almost all of the Shift spells, like Shift GreenOak, Shift Thornpaw, Shift Ogre, and Shift Suger Glider
have two aftereffect. Based on a quick look, they all appear to be overpowered also. So if your
low on the Power Pip rating, this spells can be considered overpowered also, imo.

I expect that there are more, but this is all that I can think of off the top of my head.
Anyway, to the point, LoreMaster is certainly not the only spell to have two aftereffects.
LoreMaster also has two "reduced" aftereffects, making it reasonable to add 2.5 dpp to this spell.

Power Link keeps shields off you for three rounds, and heals for three rounds, and I agree,
this should be considered two aftereffects also.

The more I think on this, the more and more I feel that LoreMaster is not really overpowered at all.

The Scarecrow. (Hey it almost Halloween, so I feel that it's fitting).