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Who is OP in PVP, not Balance for sure.

AuthorMessage
Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
Eric and Seethe, I just wanted to ask you guys something. You've been telling me and Veracity8 that Spectral Blast functions differently than Balance spells and that it shouldn't be included in Balance's average dpp for 4 pip single hit spells, but I want to bring up this point. Are you saying that if a Storm wizard uses a Storm Prism and attacks with Myth damage, that the hit is supposed to go by Myth's dpp? I mean, it avoids Storm Shields as Spectral Blast doesn't, it consumes Storm's blades and possibly Storm's traps, uses Storm's damage boost and critical like Spectral Blast, so you tell me the difference. It's then a Storm spell hitting Myth damage, and Spectral Blast is a Balance spell hitting Elemental damage. I don't see the difference between the two, so explain to me how Spectral Blast's dpp doesn't justify Loremaster.
A storm spell starts out as a storm spell with storm dpp and has to be converted by a on field ward into myth damage(If I cleanse ward a convert my storm spell does not convert). Spectral Blast starts out as an elemental school damage with elemental school dpp and makes no conversion. To summarize
1)Spectral Blast originates as an elemental damage type with elemental dpp and makes no conversion.
2)A converted storm spell originates as a storm damage type with storm dpp and is converted on field.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
PvP King on Oct 15, 2014 wrote:
Eric and Seethe, I just wanted to ask you guys something. You've been telling me and Veracity8 that Spectral Blast functions differently than Balance spells and that it shouldn't be included in Balance's average dpp for 4 pip single hit spells, but I want to bring up this point. Are you saying that if a Storm wizard uses a Storm Prism and attacks with Myth damage, that the hit is supposed to go by Myth's dpp? I mean, it avoids Storm Shields as Spectral Blast doesn't, it consumes Storm's blades and possibly Storm's traps, uses Storm's damage boost and critical like Spectral Blast, so you tell me the difference. It's then a Storm spell hitting Myth damage, and Spectral Blast is a Balance spell hitting Elemental damage. I don't see the difference between the two, so explain to me how Spectral Blast's dpp doesn't justify Loremaster.
You got me convinced....

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 16, 2014 wrote:
A storm spell starts out as a storm spell with storm dpp and has to be converted by a on field ward into myth damage(If I cleanse ward a convert my storm spell does not convert). Spectral Blast starts out as an elemental school damage with elemental school dpp and makes no conversion. To summarize
1)Spectral Blast originates as an elemental damage type with elemental dpp and makes no conversion.
2)A converted storm spell originates as a storm damage type with storm dpp and is converted on field.
Both spells are converted on the field. Let's take a look at Spectral Blast:
It starts out as a Balance spell, it consumes all Balanceblades and one of the tri-elemental blades, uses Balance damage boost, is boosted my Balance critical rating, is not affected by a 10% Balancespear, is not affected by Counterforce. It starts out by taking into account Balance stats and then consuming one of the Elemental school wards, as does a Storm attack being converted into dealing Myth damage.

Now let's look at a Storm's Kraken being converted to Myth damage. It takes into account Storm's critical rating, Storm damage boost, uses the 10% Stormspear, uses any Stormblades (as does the Storm version of Spectral Blast), is not boosted by Astraphobia, and deals Myth damage. Unlike Spectral Blast, the Storm Prism gives a Storm wizard's attack to completely avoid a Storm shield. The only difference I see is that all 6 schools that have converts have a killer advantage against Balance when comparing their converted spell to Spectral Blast, again a reason why Balance is a mid-tier school and not a top-tier.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 16, 2014 wrote:
No they do not as is obviously demonstrated. Spectral Blast follows the dpp rule of either storm, fire or ice. Hydra is on par-slightly above balance's dpp and chimera is far above balance's dpp. So according to you because balance's elemental damage spells follow elemental damage rules then balance's balance damage spell must also follow elemental damage rules despite this consistently proving not to be the case? In other words any dpp is justified for balance without consequence?
Spectral Blast follows Balance's dpp as well as the Elemental schools or the spell wouldn't exist. Are you saying that if Ice gets a 5 pip Storm damage spell that it should deal 650-730 Storm damage because it's a Storm spell? No, that would make Ice overpowered as Ice wizards would have a huge dpp spell that they can enchant. If Storm got a spell that dealt Ice damage but follows Ice's dpp, then that spell would be considered underpowered because of Storm's natural low health and accuracy. Also, more proof that Spectral Blast follows Balance's rules is that the accuracy is a stable 85% Balance accuracy, not a 70, 75, or 80% accuracy spell. You can see something that is completely different from this where because Insane Bolt does Moon damage, that the accuracy is 100% as are all Moon spells.

Hydra is not above Balance's dpp because dpp goes up as the pip cost goes up, unless you mean that you're saying that your rules for dpp are incorrect. You said that because Spectral Blast is an Elemental spell, that it has to follow the Elemental spell rules. However, Hydra and Chimera don't have to even though they hit Elemental and Spirit damage. Should the order for damage of Hydra not be the Storm head hitting the highest, second the Fire, and third the Ice? If your rule on Spectral Blast were correct, then that would be the case; but all 3 spells apply to Balance's own dpp.

Yes, any dpp is justified for Balance without consequence because it's meant to be a mixture of all schools. I don't see anywhere where Loremaster is dealing more damage than Kraken, otherwise if it was I would complain that the spell is overpowered as well. But because it's under Storm's dpp, can be on par or even under Fire's dpp, and since Balance is an average damage school (meaning it's in the middle) that Balance has the 3rd highest (roughly in the middle) dpp from a 4 pip spell. How is that overpowered? Because of the nerfed effects? Well, Loremaster does go under Storm's dpp by far compared to Kraken, and Balance can be as hard hitting as Storm as seen in Spectral Blast, so the spell is fair.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 16, 2014 wrote:
Hydra and Chimera deals 3 split hits. Spectral blast deals one hit that deals the same damage type and dpp as the associated elemental school. What isn't explained here?
Yes, Hydra and Chimera do deal 3 split hits. Spectral Blast deals one hit that deals the same dpp as the Elemental school it hits with, but then let's look at Orthrus. The spell has does 100 dpp and hits twice.Cyclops on average deals 95 dpp, so Orthrus' dpp is consistent with Myth's dpp even though the spell is a multi hit spell. In fact it does 4 more dpp than Medusa even though Medusa stuns for 2 turns, so Orthrus is already dealing more damage than it should be even though it hits twice in comparison to Hydra and Chimera, meaning Hydra and Chimera would have to follow Elemental + Spirit school based rules if that's the case, which they do not, meaning that Spectral Blast follows Balance's dpp (the average is around Balance's dpp) even though it deals Elemental damage and follows their rules at the same time.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Ok, Eric, Part 1 of 2.

Since you feel the onus is on me to prove my point, I also
feel that you need to disprove what I state. To back up my point,
here are direct quotes.

Directly from Wizard101, please see " " below.

I am just reposting some of the same information that PvPKing has already
posted, but I am breaking it down a little differently.

The Player's guide has been updated and changed, so some of the original
information is no longer available on Balance. Since that has changed, I
have moved to other areas to make my case.

"Each school of magic has different pros and cons, but all magic schools
in Wizard101 are equal. A Legendary Balance Wizard can be just as
powerful as a Legendary Storm Wizard!"

> All Schools are Equal and Balance is in a state of equality to all those
> schools. So, you take the Gear, base specs, and average of spells, and
> one wizard will directly equal another wizard. Take the Balance of all
> Six of them, you have a Balance Wizard.

"The Magic of Balance is harmony and finding equality in all things.
It draws on elements from each of the other schools, incorporating bits
and pieces of those other energies to fill in the spaces between the Schools."

> The "Magic" of Balance is a state of being equal to all six schools.
> It draws on elements from each of the other schools.
> What is Magic, the spells are our Magic, as everyone knows.
> So Balance takes weakness, Black Mantel, heals, etc, from the other schools.
> Equality, the spells of Balance would be equal to the other school spells.
> Isn't this part of what PVPKing has been saying?
> If the Balance school is equal, then the spells would be an average of the
> other six schools averages. Why do they have one odd school, versus
> having an even number of schools? Why do we have three Elemental and
> three Spirit, and only one Balance school? Why does the Balance school
> symbol show a set of Balance scales?

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric, Here is part 2 of 2.

"Sorcerers use Transmutation to blend the forces of the other schools for
their spells."

> So Balance can "change or alter" their new spells in form or even appearance,
> and it could be to a higher form of a spell. Although it states "Blend", and
> a "balanced" blend would be equal of each source. If it is an equal blend as
> KI implies, then you would have to blend all school's average to attain the
> average for Balance's spells. If you question if it's a balance, hence why
> the name Balance? Why not the "School of Mutation" if it was unbalanced.
> KI chooses their words very, very carefully, and the name Balance has meaning.

"The Art of Balance in Magic is Harmony, finding equality in all things.
It draws on elements from each of the other schools, incorporating bits and
pieces of those other energies to achieve greater power."

"Learning Balance takes longer, but the Power it holds is immeasurable."

> Spells in Harmony, finding Equality, I consider that an Average.
> The Power of Balance spells are immeasurable... kind of a hint there.
> This would imply that Balance does not have to meet any kind of standard,
> as you feel that it must.

So, reading this implies that Balance is exactly what it's name implies, a Balance
of all spells, and hence an average of all spells.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Ok Eric,

If after reading the other 2 posts, you can at least agree that Balance is a Balanced Blend of
all schools spells, we can move onto how I calculated my values.
If on the other hand, you cannot agree that Balance is a Balanced Blend, then there is
no reason to continue this discussion, and we can stop.

Ok, I'll state what I consider the obvious, and PvPKing and you can point out where I have errors
in my thinking.

The spells, for each school varies in ddp, depending on whether it's crafted, has no aftereffects,
has aftereffects, has DOT (Damage over time) or has TOE/AAO (Attack all Oponents).

We have many combinations for each school, see below for a few Non-Crafted examples.

1. A spell that has a single hit, no aftereffects, no DOT or TOE. (Normally the dpp will be higher).
2. A spell that has a single hit, one aftereffect, no DOT or TOE. (Normally the dpp will be lower.
3. A spell that has a Single hit two aftereffect, no DOT or TOE. (Normally the dpp will be even lower).

4. A spell that has a DOT hit, no aftereffects, no TOE. (Normally the dpp will be Lower than #1).
5. A spell that has a DOT hit, one aftereffect, no TOE. (Normally the dpp will be lower than #4.
6. A spell that has a DOT hit, two aftereffect, no TOE. (Normally the dpp will be even lower than #5).

7. A spell that has a AAO hit, no aftereffects, no DOT. (Normally the dpp will be Lower than #1).
8. A spell that has a AAO hit, one aftereffect, no DOT. (Normally the dpp will be lower than #7.
9. A spell that has a AAO hit, two aftereffect, no DOT. (Normally the dpp will be even lower than #8).

10.A spell that drops in Accuracy, will increase in dpp.

11.A spell can increase in Damage as the pip cost increase, larger spells can increase in dpp.

Items 4,5,6 and 7,8,9 will always be below Item #1 and a calculated percentage can be generated.
The percentage will vary depending on what aftereffect the spell has, so different aftereffects
will change the dpp.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 16, 2014 wrote:
Hi seethe42,

Sorry, I missed this question when scanning all the other messages. My 114 was in error, it
really should have been 113.5. Please note that this value is only for Crafted spells, and has
nothing to do with the average of non crafted spells which has an average of 104.

I'm sure that when people calculate this, they will say that I did not take in the 5% accuracy
loss of Ninja Pips and drop the dpp. Doing this only changes the crafted average dpp by
~1, and I really didn't see this as a major difference.

Back to the above question,
How did I get this value for non crafted schools, I took only spells that had no aftereffect and
calculated the average (all spells were one hit and either 5 or 6 pip spells).
You cannot add in spells with an aftereffect, or DOT or HOT, as that skews the data.
Plus, I did not add balance into this, as this school has been nerfed, it should be 104 and
is only 100. I expect that this is because there is only one shield for pure Balance.

For Crafted spells, I noted the average was higher in each case, with the exception of Fire and Storm.
I therefore took only crafted spells that had no aftereffect, and took the average, which is 113.5.
Again, I only used the Main Six schools, as Balance is the average or part of all schools, so I did not
add it in. I did have to adjust for Deer Knight, as it was HOT and DOT, and the two do not cancel each
other out. So, I had to calculate each one independently (and I used Ice as a reference to calculate the
percentage of change). If Death had a one hit spells, it would have made it easier, but as it is,
Deer Knight has a adjusted dpp of 111. (My original dpp for Deer Knight was 114, my mistake).

I have tried this many different ways, and the only way that make sense is the above method.

If anyone wants to say that LoreMaster is well overpowered, maybe they should look at Myth or Death
first. Myth average is 99 dpp, but the crafted spell is 128 with only a 5% accuracy loss.
Death average is 94 dpp, but Deer Knight's adjusted is 111, a pretty solid increase.
Even Life and Ice take good jumps when we compare standard to crafted.

Loremaster is only 107.5 dpp with two weak aftereffects while the average for all crafted schools is
~113. I really don't see where anyone can call this spell out of line, with the Crafted line of spells.
So let me get this straight. In order to calculate the average damage for the crafted spells you:

1)excluded over half the crafted spells that currently exist.
2)You then exclude the balance school based on logic that is neither supported by KI statements OR by spell design trends.
3)You then use the ice school as a frame of reference for the death school's spells.
4)You then compare Loremaster: a crafted spell with 2 effects to the average of all crafted spells without effects despite repeatedly stating yourself that you cannot compare spells with no effects to spells with effects.

And your data is valid? Im sorry but that is laughable.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Oct 16, 2014 wrote:
Both spells are converted on the field. Let's take a look at Spectral Blast:
It starts out as a Balance spell, it consumes all Balanceblades and one of the tri-elemental blades, uses Balance damage boost, is boosted my Balance critical rating, is not affected by a 10% Balancespear, is not affected by Counterforce. It starts out by taking into account Balance stats and then consuming one of the Elemental school wards, as does a Storm attack being converted into dealing Myth damage.

Now let's look at a Storm's Kraken being converted to Myth damage. It takes into account Storm's critical rating, Storm damage boost, uses the 10% Stormspear, uses any Stormblades (as does the Storm version of Spectral Blast), is not boosted by Astraphobia, and deals Myth damage. Unlike Spectral Blast, the Storm Prism gives a Storm wizard's attack to completely avoid a Storm shield. The only difference I see is that all 6 schools that have converts have a killer advantage against Balance when comparing their converted spell to Spectral Blast, again a reason why Balance is a mid-tier school and not a top-tier.
Excellent welcome to the world of spell mechanics, something I consider myself an expert in. To understand how spell damage and boosts are applied read this guide: Spell Mechanics

In understanding spell mechanics we can see which spells are converted on field and which are not.

For example we know that bubbles such as astraphobia apply there effect before conversion is made. To see this effect use a storm spell and convert it so that it hits a myth shield, the pierce(the segment of the spell that is based on damage type) from astraphobia will still be applied to the myth shield.

However try utilizing hydra under counterforce. You'll notice the hydra does not receive any piercing boost from the bubble. This is because no on field conversion is made for hydra.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Oct 16, 2014 wrote:
Spectral Blast follows Balance's dpp as well as the Elemental schools or the spell wouldn't exist. Are you saying that if Ice gets a 5 pip Storm damage spell that it should deal 650-730 Storm damage because it's a Storm spell? No, that would make Ice overpowered as Ice wizards would have a huge dpp spell that they can enchant. If Storm got a spell that dealt Ice damage but follows Ice's dpp, then that spell would be considered underpowered because of Storm's natural low health and accuracy. Also, more proof that Spectral Blast follows Balance's rules is that the accuracy is a stable 85% Balance accuracy, not a 70, 75, or 80% accuracy spell. You can see something that is completely different from this where because Insane Bolt does Moon damage, that the accuracy is 100% as are all Moon spells.

Hydra is not above Balance's dpp because dpp goes up as the pip cost goes up, unless you mean that you're saying that your rules for dpp are incorrect. You said that because Spectral Blast is an Elemental spell, that it has to follow the Elemental spell rules. However, Hydra and Chimera don't have to even though they hit Elemental and Spirit damage. Should the order for damage of Hydra not be the Storm head hitting the highest, second the Fire, and third the Ice? If your rule on Spectral Blast were correct, then that would be the case; but all 3 spells apply to Balance's own dpp.

Yes, any dpp is justified for Balance without consequence because it's meant to be a mixture of all schools. I don't see anywhere where Loremaster is dealing more damage than Kraken, otherwise if it was I would complain that the spell is overpowered as well. But because it's under Storm's dpp, can be on par or even under Fire's dpp, and since Balance is an average damage school (meaning it's in the middle) that Balance has the 3rd highest (roughly in the middle) dpp from a 4 pip spell. How is that overpowered? Because of the nerfed effects? Well, Loremaster does go under Storm's dpp by far compared to Kraken, and Balance can be as hard hitting as Storm as seen in Spectral Blast, so the spell is fair.
No one is saying that spectral blast is not a balance spell, what we are saying is that it deals the associated elemental dpp which I have shown time and time again. My rule for spectral blast is correct because it has been shown to be correct, it is not invented: Spectral Blast does borrow the dpp from the associated schools. If an ice spell would deal storm dpp AND storm damage then yes it would be balanced since it would then encounter the numerous amount of storm shields in PvP and have no natural way to be boosted in the ice school. Similarly if a storm spell dealt ice damage I would expect it to follow ice dpp as it is allowing storm to deal ice damage using it's superior attack and critical boost.

Yes balance can be as hard hitting as storm: if it has no effect and if it hits storm damage. Loremaster has 2 effects and hits single shield-able balance damage. It is the highest dpp balance damage spell in the game with no consequential effects and despite this has 2 aftereffects. That is very overpowered.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
PvP King on Oct 16, 2014 wrote:
Yes, Hydra and Chimera do deal 3 split hits. Spectral Blast deals one hit that deals the same dpp as the Elemental school it hits with, but then let's look at Orthrus. The spell has does 100 dpp and hits twice.Cyclops on average deals 95 dpp, so Orthrus' dpp is consistent with Myth's dpp even though the spell is a multi hit spell. In fact it does 4 more dpp than Medusa even though Medusa stuns for 2 turns, so Orthrus is already dealing more damage than it should be even though it hits twice in comparison to Hydra and Chimera, meaning Hydra and Chimera would have to follow Elemental + Spirit school based rules if that's the case, which they do not, meaning that Spectral Blast follows Balance's dpp (the average is around Balance's dpp) even though it deals Elemental damage and follows their rules at the same time.
Er what? What does Orthus dealing more dpp than Medusa have to do with whether Hydra and Chimera have to follow elemental/spiritual dpp? Further how does this extend to Spectral Blast considering all of those spells are fundamentally different in nature?

1)Spectral Blast-Single Hit from 1 of 3 potential schools
2) Hydra/Chimera-3 hits each hit from a different school
3)Orthus-2 Hits from the same school.

Furthermore the "average" of spectral blast is nowhere close to the average of all balance damage spells.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric,

One other items that I want to point out, is based on a statement
you made in one of your earlier postings. When I first read this,
I was like, yeah but it's so minor why bring it up?

Eric Stated:
"Example 3:Yes higher spells tend to increase in dpp. Compare every
10 pip spell to its comparable lower level spell. You can clearly see
this trend in all schools as spells increase."

I think Storm, Ice or Life are solid examples, below is Storm.
No aftereffects, DOT or AOE, so we are doing a direct comparison.

Pips. Abb. Name. Average dpp change.
1 Snake 125 0
2 Bats 132.5 7.5
3 Shark 135 2.5
4 Kraken 137.5 2.5
5 Stormzilla 138 .5
6 Triton 139.1 1.1

So as the Pip level increase, the change decreases, and gets smaller
and smaller. I see this as such a minor increase at the five pip mark
it should be almost ignored. After five pips, it starts to increase again,
making me wonder if 5 pips spells are the average.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Veracity8 on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

One other items that I want to point out, is based on a statement
you made in one of your earlier postings. When I first read this,
I was like, yeah but it's so minor why bring it up?

Eric Stated:
"Example 3:Yes higher spells tend to increase in dpp. Compare every
10 pip spell to its comparable lower level spell. You can clearly see
this trend in all schools as spells increase."

I think Storm, Ice or Life are solid examples, below is Storm.
No aftereffects, DOT or AOE, so we are doing a direct comparison.

Pips. Abb. Name. Average dpp change.
1 Snake 125 0
2 Bats 132.5 7.5
3 Shark 135 2.5
4 Kraken 137.5 2.5
5 Stormzilla 138 .5
6 Triton 139.1 1.1

So as the Pip level increase, the change decreases, and gets smaller
and smaller. I see this as such a minor increase at the five pip mark
it should be almost ignored. After five pips, it starts to increase again,
making me wonder if 5 pips spells are the average.
You conveniently left out the 10 pip spell specifically mentioned in his post.
10 Storm Owl 157.5 significantly higher as Eric stated.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
So let me get this straight. In order to calculate the average damage for the crafted spells you:

1)excluded over half the crafted spells that currently exist.
2)You then exclude the balance school based on logic that is neither supported by KI statements OR by spell design trends.
3)You then use the ice school as a frame of reference for the death school's spells.
4)You then compare Loremaster: a crafted spell with 2 effects to the average of all crafted spells without effects despite repeatedly stating yourself that you cannot compare spells with no effects to spells with effects.

And your data is valid? Im sorry but that is laughable.
So let me get this straight. In order to calculate the average damage for the
crafted spells you:

1)excluded over half the crafted spells that currently exist.

Reply, How can you include the crafted spells that have aftereffects, when
you have no adjustment for the aftereffects?

2)You then exclude the balance school based on logic that is neither supported
by KI statements OR by spell design trends.

Reply, If Balance is the average of all schools, then there is no need to add
it in. It would be like adding in the average to the average, which make no
sense.

3)You then use the ice school as a frame of reference for the death school's spells.

Reply, It was to get a Ballpark adjustment, nothing more, the actual values used
were from the Death school.

4)You then compare Loremaster: a crafted spell with 2 effects to the average of all
crafted spells without effects despite repeatedly stating yourself that you cannot
compare spells with no effects to spells with effects.

Reply, As you know, I only use the Average of the six schools as a Reference to
do a comparison to Loremaster. If the Average of all six schools was well above
Loremaster, it would show that LoreMaster is not Overpowered.

And your data is valid? Im sorry but that is laughable.

Reply, Just as laughable as adding in spells with AFtereffects and not compensating
for the dpp adjustment of the aftereffect as you do. The aftereffects, DOT, AOE,
etc, change the dpp, and you make no adjustment for these at all.

If you would allow me to complete anything, without jumping the gun, it would be of
great help. The calcuating of the averages is not as simple you just adding up the
dpp values. Any expert in spell mechanics I would think should know that.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
You conveniently left out the 10 pip spell specifically mentioned in his post.
10 Storm Owl 157.5 significantly higher as Eric stated.
Seethe42,

I left out 7,8,9 because they have aftereffect, and you cannot directly compare them.
Storm Owl has a huge increase, but that is why I asked if anyone thought that five pips
was the average? It was a question, not a statement.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
Excellent welcome to the world of spell mechanics, something I consider myself an expert in. To understand how spell damage and boosts are applied read this guide: Spell Mechanics

In understanding spell mechanics we can see which spells are converted on field and which are not.

For example we know that bubbles such as astraphobia apply there effect before conversion is made. To see this effect use a storm spell and convert it so that it hits a myth shield, the pierce(the segment of the spell that is based on damage type) from astraphobia will still be applied to the myth shield.

However try utilizing hydra under counterforce. You'll notice the hydra does not receive any piercing boost from the bubble. This is because no on field conversion is made for hydra.
Nevermind, I was wrong about Astraphobia not increasing armor pierce. My friend switched his gear before and after we tested the spell to test out the armor pierce, I didn't notice.

Spectral Blast is converted on the field, as are Hydra and Chimera. You can see this when as soon as the spell is cast, it comes increased by Balance damage first. Then comes critical, and then the blades, and the trap. That is still converted on the field, just at a different time than a converted Kraken, so my point is still proven. If Spectral Blast can hit up to 550 damage for only 4 pips and Loremaster hits at a maximum of 470 for 4 pips, then Loremaster is justified as a non-overpowered spell.

On field conversion is made for Hydra, but that's before the blades are consumed. In other words, it's directly after critical percentages are taken into account. This makes Hydra weaker than the average converted spell due to the lack of advantages, another reason why Balance isn't overpowered as thought to be, but it still is a Balance spell, and does follow Balance's normal dpp trend. Spectral Blast is "above" Balance's dpp trend while Hydra isn't, which is a clear sign that Balance does not have the same dpp trend as the other schools do.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
Er what? What does Orthus dealing more dpp than Medusa have to do with whether Hydra and Chimera have to follow elemental/spiritual dpp? Further how does this extend to Spectral Blast considering all of those spells are fundamentally different in nature?

1)Spectral Blast-Single Hit from 1 of 3 potential schools
2) Hydra/Chimera-3 hits each hit from a different school
3)Orthus-2 Hits from the same school.

Furthermore the "average" of spectral blast is nowhere close to the average of all balance damage spells.
Orthrus dealing more dpp than Medusa (roughly Myth's normal dpp) is a clear sign that even if a spell attacks more than once, the dpp isn't decreased or altered in any way, neither is the base rule of the spell. If that is clearly shown through Orthrus and Minotaur, that they're both hitting twice with no consequence or change in rule at all, then it shows that Hydra and Chimera should have no change in rule at all compared to Spectral Blast, meaning that they should follow the same rule Spectral Blast does, despite the amount of hits the spell does. Unlike a DoT, the spell hits all at once, so you can't boost the effects of the spell later on. Because of that, the spell technically is all one big hit, just like Orthrus and Minotaur. If you can compare Hydra and Chimera to one big hit, and Spectral Blast as one hit, the three can be compared one to another. So, now, explain to me: Why do Hydra and Chimera's single headed hits not do a specific amount of Storm/Ice/Fire or Death/Myth/Life damage if your rule about Spectral Blast following only the Elemental school's dpp is correct?

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
Ok, Eric, Part 1 of 2.

Since you feel the onus is on me to prove my point, I also
feel that you need to disprove what I state. To back up my point,
here are direct quotes.

Directly from Wizard101, please see " " below.

I am just reposting some of the same information that PvPKing has already
posted, but I am breaking it down a little differently.

The Player's guide has been updated and changed, so some of the original
information is no longer available on Balance. Since that has changed, I
have moved to other areas to make my case.

"Each school of magic has different pros and cons, but all magic schools
in Wizard101 are equal. A Legendary Balance Wizard can be just as
powerful as a Legendary Storm Wizard!"

> All Schools are Equal and Balance is in a state of equality to all those
> schools. So, you take the Gear, base specs, and average of spells, and
> one wizard will directly equal another wizard. Take the Balance of all
> Six of them, you have a Balance Wizard.

"The Magic of Balance is harmony and finding equality in all things.
It draws on elements from each of the other schools, incorporating bits
and pieces of those other energies to fill in the spaces between the Schools."

> The "Magic" of Balance is a state of being equal to all six schools.
> It draws on elements from each of the other schools.
> What is Magic, the spells are our Magic, as everyone knows.
> So Balance takes weakness, Black Mantel, heals, etc, from the other schools.
> Equality, the spells of Balance would be equal to the other school spells.
> Isn't this part of what PVPKing has been saying?
> If the Balance school is equal, then the spells would be an average of the
> other six schools averages. Why do they have one odd school, versus
> having an even number of schools? Why do we have three Elemental and
> three Spirit, and only one Balance school? Why does the Balance school
> symbol show a set of Balance scales?
Excellent I am glad you bought up the actual quotes. As you yourself can see nowhere in there does it say that balance deals average dpp. Nowhere does it state that balance is the average of anything. It states balance is equal to the other schools. Equal is not average. Balance is not equal to average. We can see this by looking at the actual game itself also. Balance spells are not the average dp of pother school spells. Balance health is not the average of other school's health. Balance accuracy is not the average of other school's accuracy. 3 elemental, 3 spirit and the school symbol tell me nothing about the properties of balance spells.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
Eric, Here is part 2 of 2.

"Sorcerers use Transmutation to blend the forces of the other schools for
their spells."

> So Balance can "change or alter" their new spells in form or even appearance,
> and it could be to a higher form of a spell. Although it states "Blend", and
> a "balanced" blend would be equal of each source. If it is an equal blend as
> KI implies, then you would have to blend all school's average to attain the
> average for Balance's spells. If you question if it's a balance, hence why
> the name Balance? Why not the "School of Mutation" if it was unbalanced.
> KI chooses their words very, very carefully, and the name Balance has meaning.

"The Art of Balance in Magic is Harmony, finding equality in all things.
It draws on elements from each of the other schools, incorporating bits and
pieces of those other energies to achieve greater power."

"Learning Balance takes longer, but the Power it holds is immeasurable."

> Spells in Harmony, finding Equality, I consider that an Average.
> The Power of Balance spells are immeasurable... kind of a hint there.
> This would imply that Balance does not have to meet any kind of standard,
> as you feel that it must.

So, reading this implies that Balance is exactly what it's name implies, a Balance
of all spells, and hence an average of all spells.
Once again: Equality does not mean average. Harmony and finding equality don't mean average to me. It is pretty obvious just by examining the balance damage spells that it is not an average of all spells.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
Ok Eric,

If after reading the other 2 posts, you can at least agree that Balance is a Balanced Blend of
all schools spells, we can move onto how I calculated my values.
If on the other hand, you cannot agree that Balance is a Balanced Blend, then there is
no reason to continue this discussion, and we can stop.

Ok, I'll state what I consider the obvious, and PvPKing and you can point out where I have errors
in my thinking.

The spells, for each school varies in ddp, depending on whether it's crafted, has no aftereffects,
has aftereffects, has DOT (Damage over time) or has TOE/AAO (Attack all Oponents).

We have many combinations for each school, see below for a few Non-Crafted examples.

1. A spell that has a single hit, no aftereffects, no DOT or TOE. (Normally the dpp will be higher).
2. A spell that has a single hit, one aftereffect, no DOT or TOE. (Normally the dpp will be lower.
3. A spell that has a Single hit two aftereffect, no DOT or TOE. (Normally the dpp will be even lower).

4. A spell that has a DOT hit, no aftereffects, no TOE. (Normally the dpp will be Lower than #1).
5. A spell that has a DOT hit, one aftereffect, no TOE. (Normally the dpp will be lower than #4.
6. A spell that has a DOT hit, two aftereffect, no TOE. (Normally the dpp will be even lower than #5).

7. A spell that has a AAO hit, no aftereffects, no DOT. (Normally the dpp will be Lower than #1).
8. A spell that has a AAO hit, one aftereffect, no DOT. (Normally the dpp will be lower than #7.
9. A spell that has a AAO hit, two aftereffect, no DOT. (Normally the dpp will be even lower than #8).

10.A spell that drops in Accuracy, will increase in dpp.

11.A spell can increase in Damage as the pip cost increase, larger spells can increase in dpp.

Items 4,5,6 and 7,8,9 will always be below Item #1 and a calculated percentage can be generated.
The percentage will vary depending on what aftereffect the spell has, so different aftereffects
will change the dpp.
Whether or not a "balanced blend" is equivalent to "average" has nothing to do with the math behind the spells.
Most of your rules are correct except for # 4. I took the liberty of correcting that rule for you below.

4) A DoT spell with no aftereffects or ToE tends to have a higher dpp than #1

As a result of this rule correction we can say that Items 7,8,9 will always be below Item #1.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
Eric,

One other items that I want to point out, is based on a statement
you made in one of your earlier postings. When I first read this,
I was like, yeah but it's so minor why bring it up?

Eric Stated:
"Example 3:Yes higher spells tend to increase in dpp. Compare every
10 pip spell to its comparable lower level spell. You can clearly see
this trend in all schools as spells increase."

I think Storm, Ice or Life are solid examples, below is Storm.
No aftereffects, DOT or AOE, so we are doing a direct comparison.

Pips. Abb. Name. Average dpp change.
1 Snake 125 0
2 Bats 132.5 7.5
3 Shark 135 2.5
4 Kraken 137.5 2.5
5 Stormzilla 138 .5
6 Triton 139.1 1.1

So as the Pip level increase, the change decreases, and gets smaller
and smaller. I see this as such a minor increase at the five pip mark
it should be almost ignored. After five pips, it starts to increase again,
making me wonder if 5 pips spells are the average.
You forgot to include storm owl which has a massive jump in dpp as all the other 10 pip spells also do. As you can see my rule that higher pip costs justifies higher dpp is correct. The degree of change may vary but the change itself is ever-increasing, further supporting my assertion.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Veracity8 on Oct 17, 2014 wrote:
So let me get this straight. In order to calculate the average damage for the
crafted spells you:

1)excluded over half the crafted spells that currently exist.

Reply, How can you include the crafted spells that have aftereffects, when
you have no adjustment for the aftereffects?

2)You then exclude the balance school based on logic that is neither supported
by KI statements OR by spell design trends.

Reply, If Balance is the average of all schools, then there is no need to add
it in. It would be like adding in the average to the average, which make no
sense.

3)You then use the ice school as a frame of reference for the death school's spells.

Reply, It was to get a Ballpark adjustment, nothing more, the actual values used
were from the Death school.

4)You then compare Loremaster: a crafted spell with 2 effects to the average of all
crafted spells without effects despite repeatedly stating yourself that you cannot
compare spells with no effects to spells with effects.

Reply, As you know, I only use the Average of the six schools as a Reference to
do a comparison to Loremaster. If the Average of all six schools was well above
Loremaster, it would show that LoreMaster is not Overpowered.

And your data is valid? Im sorry but that is laughable.

Reply, Just as laughable as adding in spells with AFtereffects and not compensating
for the dpp adjustment of the aftereffect as you do. The aftereffects, DOT, AOE,
etc, change the dpp, and you make no adjustment for these at all.

If you would allow me to complete anything, without jumping the gun, it would be of
great help. The calcuating of the averages is not as simple you just adding up the
dpp values. Any expert in spell mechanics I would think should know that.
"How can you include the crafted spells that have aftereffects, when
you have no adjustment for the aftereffects? "

What adjustment do you keep referring to and how is it mathematically calculated? You asked me for the average of all crafted spells and I gave you the average.

"If Balance is the average of all schools, then there is no need to add
it in. It would be like adding in the average to the average, which make no
sense."

It is demonstrable at every pip level that balance damage is not the average of all schools.

"Reply, It was to get a Ballpark adjustment, nothing more, the actual values used
were from the Death school"

Why are you using the ice school to get the ballpark average of a death spell? Why not use the death school itself?

"As you know, I only use the Average of the six schools as a Reference to
do a comparison to Loremaster. If the Average of all six schools was well above
Loremaster, it would show that LoreMaster is not Overpowered."

Right and you are only calculating the average of all six schools using spells that don't have an aftereffect, while excluding the average of balance damage spells themself. This violates the very same rules you yourself declared.

"Just as laughable as adding in spells with AFtereffects and not compensating
for the dpp adjustment of the aftereffect as you do. The aftereffects, DOT, AOE,
etc, change the dpp, and you make no adjustment for these at all."

Of course they change the dpp....they lower it(in all cases except DoT) which is the crux of my argument. Once again I'll ask what compensation you are making, how you are making it and how it is mathematically applied.

"If you would allow me to complete anything, without jumping the gun, it would be of
great help. The calcuating of the averages is not as simple you just adding up the
dpp values. Any expert in spell mechanics I would think should know that."

Actually the calculation of averages is that simple, that is what an average is. Of course if you want a meaningful comparison you would have to compare the average of Loremaster to similar spells which in this case are the crafted spells with effects....a calculation I already performed.


"Now lets take the average dpp of all crafted spells with effects:
Keeper of the Flame+Krampus+Winter Moon+Luminous Weaver+Savage Paw+Loremaster.

(325/4)+(325/4)+(495/5)+(330/4)+(500/5)+(430/4)/6=

Average dpp of all crafted spells with effects=92 dpp
Loremaster is far beyond the curve for average damage of crafted spells with effects"

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Excellent I am glad you bought up the actual quotes. As you yourself can see nowhere in there does it say that balance deals average dpp. Nowhere does it state that balance is the average of anything. It states balance is equal to the other schools. Equal is not average. Balance is not equal to average. We can see this by looking at the actual game itself also. Balance spells are not the average dp of pother school spells. Balance health is not the average of other school's health. Balance accuracy is not the average of other school's accuracy. 3 elemental, 3 spirit and the school symbol tell me nothing about the properties of balance spells.
Yes, too bad the original text in the Book as changed, as it did use the word average,
but we no longer that text available. So, per your own words,
"It states balance is equal to the other schools."

How can one school be equal to all others, if it is not an average of them.

A = b, c, d, e, f, and g and it's not an average.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 18, 2014 wrote:
Whether or not a "balanced blend" is equivalent to "average" has nothing to do with the math behind the spells.
Most of your rules are correct except for # 4. I took the liberty of correcting that rule for you below.

4) A DoT spell with no aftereffects or ToE tends to have a higher dpp than #1

As a result of this rule correction we can say that Items 7,8,9 will always be below Item #1.
Thank you for the correction, I had limited time to complete this and was in a rush.

On the matter of:
"Whether or not a "balanced blend" is equivalent to "average" has nothing to do with the
math behind the spells."

Wrong, it would completely control the math behind the spells, think about it.

We have to build a set of rules that we both agree on, if our math is to mean anything.