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Who is OP in PVP, not Balance for sure.

AuthorMessage
Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 9, 2014 wrote:
Earthquake and Shatter have always been considered overpowered, no question about it.
They can take dozens of rounds or work, and remove them for just a few pips.
Didn't one site even remove Shatter from it's tournaments, because they felt it was way
overpowered? No one has liked Shatter from the day it was created, except those that
stack, shatter and hit (and myth ofcourse).

No matter how you look at it, Sirens makes you lose three rounds in almost all cases. While
Loremaster can be wanded off in one round. There is no comparison between the two spells,
Sirens is by far the better spell. The only time I consider the removal of two blades one effect,
is when I put up a tri-blade, and it removes two blades.

For those that don't understand the difference between the aftereffects and what sticky vs non sticky
means., please reread the above posts. I can clearly see where KI can see the difference, just in
how they design their spells.
If there was no difference, then all spells would have the same basic setup that Eric has noted.
There are variations, and hence the difference in dpp, number of aftereffects, different aftereffects, etc.

Why do some spells have -20, some -25, some -40, and some -90 weakness, it's all part of the design,
and directly ties into the power of the aftereffect and the power of the dpp, etc.

So, if you want to believe that they don't design each spell differently, then I guess all the gear is the
same too, plus all pets, all Wizard base Health, etc, etc. I can see many things that would prove
you incorrect in what you say.

Also, btw, where does KI specifically state that Siren is just considered one aftereffect, I would like to
take some time and read how they state it?
Um when was earthquake considered overpowered? It is one of the most balanced spells in the game. I do agree with you with shatter. Sirens removes 2 blades and leaves a mantle dropping you to base damage at the worst. Loremaster leaves a weakness and leaves a weakened mantle dropping you below base damage at the worse. Also when did Seethe42 claim that Sirens gave one aftereffect? I am also curious as to who is arguing that KI does not design spells differently.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 9, 2014 wrote:
Molly,

I agree, I have watched Balance spam LoreMaster and still lose the match. If LoreMaster was so
overpowering, then they would win each and every time. That is not the case, and has really never
been the case. It also doesn't matter if you are first or second, I have seen plenty of good Balance
players lose from both positions. Again, if Loremaster was so OverPowered, they would never lose
from first. I even saw one Balance go Jade, because of the number of loses he started having.

Quite the opposite with my Storm, I can win from second just as easy as from first. Enfreeble is an
incredible spells, as no one can stack on Storm. Insane bolt and wild bolt both add to an arsenal
that is very potent. There is no school at all like Storm, all they need is a little luck to win from second.
Plus the are (imo) the only school that can out damage a Life's heals, to win the match.

At level 100, I very much agree with the statements that all schools are very close to being equal. Each
school has it's overpowered spells, even if some of them are craftable.
If you look over the list, as many try to ignore, Insane bolt is the first and foremost Overpowered spell in
the game. Shatter takes a close second, along with Mana burn. Efreet dominated the PvP for over a
year, and was clearly overpowering. Link, Power Link, Fire is just an excellent school. Death is playing
very well, I have seen a larger group now in PvP. Ice took a leap with Winter Moon, that spell along
with Frostbite makes Ice a constant danger.
So, yeah, all Wizards right now have a solid set of spells, that allows them to all play and win even at
levels near 1600.
Having an overpowered spell does not mean you automatically win. People with loremaster don't automatically win, people with insane bolt don't automatically win, people with shatter don't automatically win. Does that mean these spells are not overpowered? Yes most schools have great tools, most of these tools are balanced. Unbalanced tools cause problems which is why I so vigorously fight against them.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 9, 2014 wrote:
Eric's Posting.....
------------------------------------------------------------
"I expect that KI does have a certain criteria that they
follow, but no hard or steadfast rules

Bingo, and that is my point, lore master defies these rules no
matter how loosely interpreted. Loremaster has 2 aftereffects
compared to one. Its aftereffects are reduced 5% and 10%.
It deals above dpp despite having these aftereffects. Can
you explain to me why you think a spell with 2 weakened aftereffects
should have a dpp above a spell with no aftereffect?"
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Eric,

I saw no reason to answer your other postings, as I feel that my
reply to "PvPKing" took care of them.

Before I answer your question, I have one for you.
"lore master defies these rules no matter how loosely interpreted"

The Question is, are you interpreting the rules correctly?

Now, that this question has been posed, my belief is that you are
not interpreting them correctly. Why, there is a number of reason,
the first being how you percieve the aftereffects.

Here's a few examples,

Example #1.
Samoorai at an average of 100 dpp and no aftereffect.
Savage Paw at 100 dpp and a Blade aftereffect. (Rule breaker).
If the rules you see were correct, then this breaks the rules
right off the bat. Both pure Balance spells, and again, I
expect to hear (well, it's overpowered). Or we could say,
that Samoorai has an average of 100, it could hit lower.
Doesn't matter, the avage of the design is still 100 dpp.

Example #2.
SuperNova with one aftereffect (takes away an Aura) 267.5 dpp.
What rule does this follow, wth, let's just make one up.

Example #3.
Let's say (just for the fun of it) that Balance average dpp is 100.
King Atorious is 90.6 with two full aftereffects.
(Maybe we could also say that each full aftereffect is worth ~5 dpp.
Sabertooth is at 105 with one full aftereffect. Should we say
it's a bigger spell, so it's have more dpp, if so why?
We are looking at dpp, it should not how many pips the spell is.
Chimera has no aftereffect and has a dpp of 113, it's a lower
pip than Sabertooth... but a much higher dpp.
Spectal Blast at 113 dpp average, same as Chimera, but only at
4 pips.
Hydra is at 95 dpp, and is 6 pips, shouldn't this be a higher dpp?
PvPKing is saying this too?

Example #4.
Since the above examples show that it really doesn't matter if the
spell is a high pip or a low pip spell, the dpp does not follow a
set of rules.
Spectral Blast 113 dpp no aftereffect.
Chimera 113 dpp and no aftereffect.
Sabertooth 105 and one full AFtereffect.
LoreMaster, 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects. Plus the aftereffects
on LoreMaster are weak and non stickly. Not out of place at all
when you look at the overall dpp of each spell with aftereffect.
So, if one aftereffect is worth 5 dpp (see example above), would two
reduced aftereffects be worth 5 dpp?

The Scarecrow.
Example 1: This is indeed a case of savage paw being overpowered which I pointed out in a prior post.

Example 2: What rule did I make up? The increased dpp for accuracy rule can be seen with almost every storm attack spell, ninja pigs and old wildbolt. Then dependent or variable effect for dpp can be seen with insane bolt and current wildbolt.

Example 3:Yes higher spells tend to increase in dpp. Compare every 10 pip spell to its comparable lower level spell. You can clearly see this trend in all schools as spells increase. Chimera and Hydra deal higher dpp because they deal shield-able off school damage while spectral blast imitates the dpp perfectly of the respective schools.

Example 4:I love how you point out the spells that are exceptions ignoring the vast majority of spells in the game. Both of loremasters effects are sticky but they are both weaker. However according to KI's rules that have been established across multiple spells: When a spell gains an effect it decreases in dpp, if a spell is high in cost it increases in dpp.

Explorer
May 23, 2009
62
PvP King on Sep 10, 2014 wrote:
Balance is the hardest school to play in the higher ranks of PvP. Every match I did in the past few weeks I had people set for me, and with no viable way of stacking blades and traps to make an efficient OHKO, Balance is an extremely hard school to win with against a setter. On Duelist101, there is a post regarding the same ideas where two people argued about Balance. http://www.duelist101.com/other-articles/duelist-discussions-can-ki-balance-meta/
Corwin ShadowForge made an argument down in the comments that Balance isn't overpowered and brought up the same points you did. There is absolutely no main card spell where Balance can defend from Dark Nova, traps, or even recover their health all at once. People can argue that Balance wizards can use treasure cards but those are only good until your first Reshuffle where you run out of treasure cards. He also compared Balance to other school's spells and said that there were 3 attacks that were truly "overpowered", mentioning that Supernova and Mana Burn are only situational cards whereas Guardian Spirit, Bolt, Power Link, Efreet, etc. are not. I do think personally that Fire or Myth are the most overpowered schools in this meta followed by Death with their all-new Jade strategy then Balance lies somewhere in the middle, but people being too lazy to limit their pip amount in a match is causing the mislead image that Balance is overpowered. Like I said in another post, if Balance didn't have Mana Burn, Loremaster, Supernova, or Judgement, its best attack would be a pathetic Locust Swarm, which does less than most spells on its own.
You have a lot of good points PVP King, I don't have the have the capability to be analytic with my balance at certain times.

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Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
Um when was earthquake considered overpowered? It is one of the most balanced spells in the game. I do agree with you with shatter. Sirens removes 2 blades and leaves a mantle dropping you to base damage at the worst. Loremaster leaves a weakness and leaves a weakened mantle dropping you below base damage at the worse. Also when did Seethe42 claim that Sirens gave one aftereffect? I am also curious as to who is arguing that KI does not design spells differently.
When Earth was first released, do you not remember all the postings on it being OverPowered.
There was post after post on subject, not just on this board, but on many boards.

The way I read it, Seethe42, stated he thought it was one aftereffect, please reread his posting.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
Having an overpowered spell does not mean you automatically win. People with loremaster don't automatically win, people with insane bolt don't automatically win, people with shatter don't automatically win. Does that mean these spells are not overpowered? Yes most schools have great tools, most of these tools are balanced. Unbalanced tools cause problems which is why I so vigorously fight against them.
No, the definition of overpowered would directly imply that you would win each and every match.
From first or seoncd, you would be completely overpowering, it's that simple. Now, maybe
we should be adding a few well placed adjectives before the word OverPowered, if we want to
change the meaning of the definition.
I agree, Unbalanced tools are an issue, but as already stated, LoreMaster is (if at all), very slightly
unbalanced.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
Example 1: This is indeed a case of savage paw being overpowered which I pointed out in a prior post.

Example 2: What rule did I make up? The increased dpp for accuracy rule can be seen with almost every storm attack spell, ninja pigs and old wildbolt. Then dependent or variable effect for dpp can be seen with insane bolt and current wildbolt.

Example 3:Yes higher spells tend to increase in dpp. Compare every 10 pip spell to its comparable lower level spell. You can clearly see this trend in all schools as spells increase. Chimera and Hydra deal higher dpp because they deal shield-able off school damage while spectral blast imitates the dpp perfectly of the respective schools.

Example 4:I love how you point out the spells that are exceptions ignoring the vast majority of spells in the game. Both of loremasters effects are sticky but they are both weaker. However according to KI's rules that have been established across multiple spells: When a spell gains an effect it decreases in dpp, if a spell is high in cost it increases in dpp.
Reference Example #1.
Yes, agreed, but if you have a spell that breaks the rules, then the rules become invalid. You can no longer say we have a set of
Rules that are what most spells are, because you have rule breakers, which you yourself have agreed too.

Ref Example #2.
Case in point Super Nova, if you have a drop of 25 points in accuracy, then about every 5 points lost would be an increase of 33.5 damage.
Case in point, Ninja pigs, for a 5% loss they have a 140 damage increase, doesn’t seem to match up, and it has no aftereffect.
Should we go on, no need to, we have spells that do not follow the observed rules for some reason.

Ref Example #3.
Ok, we have spectral Blast at an average of 113 dpp, and Chimera at 113 dpp, which means that the average of the Elemental schools is
exactly the same as the Spirit schools? Plus a 4 pip spell and a 9 pip spell have the same dpp with no aftereffects. How does Hydra
fit into this with an average of 95 dpp, oh another rule breaker when directly compared to Spectral Blast. If one doesn’t fit,
you must say it’s a rule breaker, and if you have rule breakers, you have no rules. Doesn’t this seem like another breaking of the rules
to you, or do you insist that it acceptable, which it is not.

Ref Example #4.
“I love how you point out the spells that are exceptions ignoring the vast majority of spells in the game”. If you have multiple rule
Breakers, it does not matter if the rest follow a general flow of dpp, etc. If you can’t fit the spells into a general set of rules and
have it make sense, then the rules are incorrect and therefore have no meaning. This logic should make sense to anyone,
you can’t have a rule, and then say “well lets say that we let this spell and that spell break it”. Once that is done,
the rules are no longer being followed, and have no substance.

In ref: “When a spell gains an effect it decreases in dpp, if a spell is high in cost it increases in dpp.”
Ok, we have lots of rule breakers, not only in Balance but in other schools, but let’s stick with Balance.
When was LoreMaster released, I’m not sure, but I believe it was after Chimera as I remember.
Chimera is 113 dpp, so would LoreMaster have 113 dpp before the added Aftereffects? If the aftereffects are
worth 5 dpp, then would two reduced aftereffects be worth 5 dpp. If that is true, then wouldn’t LoreMaster
be around 107.5 dpp, as it is? If you have schools that break the rules, then these general rules do not apply?
What if school are not rated as you see them at all, but are rated in different categories. Certain categories
contain spells that are what you call overpowered. Again, this would take us out of the box, which you don’t seem
to want to accept. It would also allow the different level spells be different from the norm, plus could add
exactly what PvPKing has stated. This make much more sense that just saying, omg, a rule breaker, it’s
overpowered.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Also, btw, where does KI specifically state that Siren is just considered one aftereffect, I would like to
take some time and read how they state it?

I never said it has one effect. In PvP it has 2 effects, in PvE it has 3 effects. It 1) Removes 2 +charms, 2) Adds -50% accuracy, 3) reduces threat on all (mass soothe). The third is useless in PvP obviously. In all the discussions about it being unfair that sirens is the only spell with 3 effects, you are really the only one I've seen that counts the first 2 as 3. I've never heard anyone claim that it has 4 effects, which is what you are claiming now.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric and/or PvPKing (or anyone else),

Ok, let me look at this from a different point of view,
and please correct any errors in this.

I just did a rough guess on the values, so please correct
them if I'm wrong.

I don't think we should be comparing LoreMaster to the other
average spells, why see below. I think we are comparing
apples to oranges, and we need to rethink this. Or, I could
be all wet, you tell me.

Fire average is 110.
Fire's crafted spell is 110 dpp Brimstone.

Ice average is 91.25
Ice's crafted spell is 98 dpp.

Storm aveage is 137.5 dpp.
Storm's crafted spell is 138 dpp.

Life average is 91.25
Life's crafted spell is 96 dpp.

Death average is 94 dpp.
Death's crafted is 114 and it hits all.
(Deer Knight)

Myth average is 99 dpp.
Myth's crafted spell is 128.

The average of all (6) schools Average spells is 104
(not far off from Balance at 100 or so).

The average of all (6) schools Crafted school spells is 114.

Loremaster is 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects.
Lets say the reduced aftereffects are worth 7 dpp.

I think, when you compare a crafted to a non-crafted,
we have generated a Strawman effect/comparison.

There we go, we need to compare Crafted to Crafted, and
the LoreMaster Overpowered train of thought is destroyed.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
Also, btw, where does KI specifically state that Siren is just considered one aftereffect, I would like to
take some time and read how they state it?

I never said it has one effect. In PvP it has 2 effects, in PvE it has 3 effects. It 1) Removes 2 +charms, 2) Adds -50% accuracy, 3) reduces threat on all (mass soothe). The third is useless in PvP obviously. In all the discussions about it being unfair that sirens is the only spell with 3 effects, you are really the only one I've seen that counts the first 2 as 3. I've never heard anyone claim that it has 4 effects, which is what you are claiming now.
Stated by seeth42 "Removal of 2 blades is one effect."
I was stating that Sirens's effect is actually two effects, when it removed two blades that took me
two rounds to put up. So, to clearify, I am saying that when it removes two charms, that is two
aftereffects. If I put up a Tri-Blade, I see it as one aftereffect.
I think we just mis-understood what each was implying or saying.

Anyway this is really a none issue, as I think the Overpower debate is solved.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
When Earth was first released, do you not remember all the postings on it being OverPowered.
There was post after post on subject, not just on this board, but on many boards.

The way I read it, Seethe42, stated he thought it was one aftereffect, please reread his posting.
No I don't remember those posts but regardless earthquake has proven to be not OP. It has a reduced dpp and consequential effects.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
No, the definition of overpowered would directly imply that you would win each and every match.
From first or seoncd, you would be completely overpowering, it's that simple. Now, maybe
we should be adding a few well placed adjectives before the word OverPowered, if we want to
change the meaning of the definition.
I agree, Unbalanced tools are an issue, but as already stated, LoreMaster is (if at all), very slightly
unbalanced.
So according to you no spell in the game currently is overpowered? Ok lets go with your preferred word "unbalanced". Loremaster is unbalanced, my argument still stands.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
Reference Example #1.
Yes, agreed, but if you have a spell that breaks the rules, then the rules become invalid. You can no longer say we have a set of
Rules that are what most spells are, because you have rule breakers, which you yourself have agreed too.

Ref Example #2.
Case in point Super Nova, if you have a drop of 25 points in accuracy, then about every 5 points lost would be an increase of 33.5 damage.
Case in point, Ninja pigs, for a 5% loss they have a 140 damage increase, doesn’t seem to match up, and it has no aftereffect.
Should we go on, no need to, we have spells that do not follow the observed rules for some reason.

Ref Example #3.
Ok, we have spectral Blast at an average of 113 dpp, and Chimera at 113 dpp, which means that the average of the Elemental schools is
exactly the same as the Spirit schools? Plus a 4 pip spell and a 9 pip spell have the same dpp with no aftereffects. How does Hydra
fit into this with an average of 95 dpp, oh another rule breaker when directly compared to Spectral Blast. If one doesn’t fit,
you must say it’s a rule breaker, and if you have rule breakers, you have no rules. Doesn’t this seem like another breaking of the rules
to you, or do you insist that it acceptable, which it is not.

Ref Example #4.
“I love how you point out the spells that are exceptions ignoring the vast majority of spells in the game”. If you have multiple rule
Breakers, it does not matter if the rest follow a general flow of dpp, etc. If you can’t fit the spells into a general set of rules and
have it make sense, then the rules are incorrect and therefore have no meaning. This logic should make sense to anyone,
you can’t have a rule, and then say “well lets say that we let this spell and that spell break it”. Once that is done,
the rules are no longer being followed, and have no substance.

In ref: “When a spell gains an effect it decreases in dpp, if a spell is high in cost it increases in dpp.”
Ok, we have lots of rule breakers, not only in Balance but in other schools, but let’s stick with Balance.
When was LoreMaster released, I’m not sure, but I believe it was after Chimera as I remember.
Chimera is 113 dpp, so would LoreMaster have 113 dpp before the added Aftereffects? If the aftereffects are
worth 5 dpp, then would two reduced aftereffects be worth 5 dpp. If that is true, then wouldn’t LoreMaster
be around 107.5 dpp, as it is? If you have schools that break the rules, then these general rules do not apply?
What if school are not rated as you see them at all, but are rated in different categories. Certain categories
contain spells that are what you call overpowered. Again, this would take us out of the box, which you don’t seem
to want to accept. It would also allow the different level spells be different from the norm, plus could add
exactly what PvPKing has stated. This make much more sense that just saying, omg, a rule breaker, it’s
overpowered.
Example 1:
Exceptions to rules do not invalidate those rules unless the exceptions are glaring or in the majority. Spells that "break" the rules (i.e are exceptions) are in the vast minority of all total spells. Are platypus no longer mammals because they lay eggs?(an exception to the rule that mammals give live birth)

Example 2:
Both of those spells follow the observed rule of reduced accuracy for higher damage per pip do they not? They do not follow the rule linearly but the do follow the rule.

Example 3:
The average of spectral blast isn't balance damage dpp, it is the average of the 3 elemental school's dpp. Hydra and Chimera are both the same design for spells however they do not imitate the dpp of the other schools(unlike spectral blast which does imitate the dpp for the elemental schools). Chimera dealing more damage than Hydra is consistent with higher dpp for higher cost.

Example 4: Once again do the number of exceptions to the rules outweigh the number of adherents to the rules?

The specific school damage spells(hydra, chimera, spectral blast) tend to deal more damage than balance damage spells because unlike balance damage they are shield-able by specific shields.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 9, 2014 wrote:
You never answered Seethe42's question. Do you consider earthquake to have infinite side effects?
I've tested with my friends to see if Earthquake really does remove all effects from the opponent, it took us a few hours of stacking, and Earthquake left several rings of blades, traps, shields, infections, etc. behind. So no, Earthquake cannot have an infinite amount of effects. So no, Earthquake doesn't have an infinite amount of effects, it has several hundred, but the spell can hurt yourself as much as it can hurt the opponent so it's not even worth complaining about.

Shatter, however, is overpowered due to the amount of effects it has and by how the effects may change a match. If it was only one effect, you'd see the shields being taken off all at once, but no, it has its separate number of effects, limited to the amount of shields the opponent has.

This is a little off topic, but you can see the "more effects less dpp" trend within shields, where with Thermic Shield it costs 0 pips and has 2 shields worth 70%, Snow Shield has 1 shield and is worth 80%, and Elemental Shield has 3 shields worth 50%, and some pets have 1 pip shields that give 2 shields and are 90%.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
Eric and/or PvPKing (or anyone else),

Ok, let me look at this from a different point of view,
and please correct any errors in this.

I just did a rough guess on the values, so please correct
them if I'm wrong.

I don't think we should be comparing LoreMaster to the other
average spells, why see below. I think we are comparing
apples to oranges, and we need to rethink this. Or, I could
be all wet, you tell me.

Fire average is 110.
Fire's crafted spell is 110 dpp Brimstone.

Ice average is 91.25
Ice's crafted spell is 98 dpp.

Storm aveage is 137.5 dpp.
Storm's crafted spell is 138 dpp.

Life average is 91.25
Life's crafted spell is 96 dpp.

Death average is 94 dpp.
Death's crafted is 114 and it hits all.
(Deer Knight)

Myth average is 99 dpp.
Myth's crafted spell is 128.

The average of all (6) schools Average spells is 104
(not far off from Balance at 100 or so).

The average of all (6) schools Crafted school spells is 114.

Loremaster is 107.5 with two reduced aftereffects.
Lets say the reduced aftereffects are worth 7 dpp.

I think, when you compare a crafted to a non-crafted,
we have generated a Strawman effect/comparison.

There we go, we need to compare Crafted to Crafted, and
the LoreMaster Overpowered train of thought is destroyed.
It is not an apple to oranges comparison to compare crafted spells to their trained counterparts unless you stating that the crafted spells should be more powerful than the non crafted counterparts?

Let us indeed compare crafted to crafted as you state:

Balance
Samoorai: 100 dpp with no effects
Savage Paw: 100 dpp with 1 normal effect
Loremaster: 108 dpp with 2 weakened aftereffects

Death
Deer Knight: 114 dpp(aoe/dot)
Lord of Night: 85 dpp(drain)

Life
Goat Monk: 96 dpp with no effects
Luminous Weaver: 83 dpp with 1 normal aftereffect

Fire
Brimstone Revenant: 110 dpp with no effect
Krampus: 81 dpp with one regular effect.

Myth
Ninja Pigs: 128 dpp with reduced accuracy
Keeper of the Flames: 81 dpp with one regular effect.

Ice
Handsome Fomoori: 98 dpp with no aftereffect
Winter Moon: 99 dpp with one regular effect

Storm
Catalan: 138 dpp with no aftereffect

Now lets rank spells with effects by dpp(Strongest to weakest)
1)Loremaster: 108 dpp(2 weakened effects)
2)Savage Paw: 100 dpp(1 effect)
3)Winter Moon: 99 dpp(1 effect)
4)Luminous Weaver: 98 dpp(1 effect)
5)Krampus/Keeper of the Flame 81 dpp(1 effect)

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
It is not a claim it is a demonstrable fact that spectral blast imitates the dpp of the elemental schools.

Spectral Blast Ice: 365 Compared to Wyvern 335-395(average 365)
Spectral Blast Fire: 440 Compared to Burning Revanant 440
Spectral Blast Storm: 550 Compared to Kraken 520-580(average 550)

The balance school unlike every other school(barring storm:insane bolt) is able to deal off school damage with their normal spells. The off school damage spells either imitate the school of origin or are given high-end to increased dpp as they can then be shielded with specific shields unlike balance damage.

Insane bolt is indeed a storm spell but i would hope that you are not claiming that its 500 dpp be averaged into storms normal spell damage.

I can't show you what KI didn't say, However I can tell you what they did say about DoT's which are that they are a type of attack that deals its damage over 3 rounds. I also demonstrated that the card terminology is inconsistent with the Shift Spell and the Dimension Shift Spell. All forms of damage are attacks but all attacks are not the same form. Drains are a type of attack as are DoT's and regular single hit attacks. As far as I know the DoT spell includes the initial attack. Also I am pretty sure I see an animation every time a DoT damages me.(not that animation has anything to do with whether a DoT is a type of attack or an effect).
Because you seem to have your own set of rules about Spectral Blast, I'll give you a rule that even KI states. What is said: Sorcery does not draw upon internal aspects of the caster, nor does it rely on external forces. Instead, it is the creation of something new by combining elements in unique and powerful ways.
Source: https://www.wizard101.com/game/balance-school

What is explained here is that Balance doesn't rely on a "set of rules" like the other schools do. It can be as defensive as Ice, as hard hitting as Storm, as good a healer as Life, and as good a manipulator of Myth. This also justifies how Supernova and Mana Burn are allowed in PvP because Balance is meant to have unique and powerful spells.

"Sorcerers use Transmutation to blend forces of other schools for their spells."

This makes complete sense. Loremaster takes its Weakness from Luminous Weaver, takes its Mantle from Krampus, has them both weakened, and deals more damage as a trade-off. Loremaster lies perfectly in Balance's description, but I'll show you where other schools do not.

Fire: "Initially these spells will not do much damage, but they eventually stack for possible large amounts of damage in short amounts of time." What spell defies this? Fire Dragon. The first hit from this spell does more than it's DoT, while the initial hits are supposed to be weak. With enchants, the initial hit is usually stronger than the DoT.
Storm: "Storm wizards have the ability to unleash high amounts of damage from an early level, which is good, but they place too much emphasis on power, and therefore suffer in terms of accuracy." What spell defies this? Insane Bolt, 100% accuracy. What else? Storm gets large amounts of accuracy from gear.
Ice: "Ice, known as Thaumaturges, exhibit great patience and strength, but as a result they sometimes become rigid and inflexible." Rule breaker: Winter Moon, Snow Angel, Frostbite all give Ice the ability to become flexible in PvP.
Life: "Combined with this, they do low to moderate damage attack spells with extremely high accuracy rates." Rule breakers: Spinysaur, does more damage than even Sun Serpent, a Fire spell.
Death: No rule breaker.
Myth: "They have their own moderate damage spells with moderate accuracy, but a lot of their more functional spells deal with buffing, healing, and protecting their minions." Rule breaker: Just about all of their new spells have functions outside of focusing on their minion and their spells do well above average damage.

If every school was to follow the exact supposed rules, then the game would be extremely predictable and boring. Schools can have exceptions, but Loremaster isn't one, as KingsIsle clearly states in the description for Balance.

Spectral Blast also shows that Balance has no true dpp, as Hydra does the same dpp as Chimera and both being less than Spectral Blast's average dpp.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
It is not an apple to oranges comparison to compare crafted spells to their trained counterparts unless you stating that the crafted spells should be more powerful than the non crafted counterparts?

Let us indeed compare crafted to crafted as you state:

Balance
Samoorai: 100 dpp with no effects
Savage Paw: 100 dpp with 1 normal effect
Loremaster: 108 dpp with 2 weakened aftereffects

Death
Deer Knight: 114 dpp(aoe/dot)
Lord of Night: 85 dpp(drain)

Life
Goat Monk: 96 dpp with no effects
Luminous Weaver: 83 dpp with 1 normal aftereffect

Fire
Brimstone Revenant: 110 dpp with no effect
Krampus: 81 dpp with one regular effect.

Myth
Ninja Pigs: 128 dpp with reduced accuracy
Keeper of the Flames: 81 dpp with one regular effect.

Ice
Handsome Fomoori: 98 dpp with no aftereffect
Winter Moon: 99 dpp with one regular effect

Storm
Catalan: 138 dpp with no aftereffect

Now lets rank spells with effects by dpp(Strongest to weakest)
1)Loremaster: 108 dpp(2 weakened effects)
2)Savage Paw: 100 dpp(1 effect)
3)Winter Moon: 99 dpp(1 effect)
4)Luminous Weaver: 98 dpp(1 effect)
5)Krampus/Keeper of the Flame 81 dpp(1 effect)
Hi Eric,

I think we have really made headway, in two areas, once in that we cannot look at crafted and
non-crafted in the same way. Second, just as PvPKing has brought up, we clearly need to look
outside of the box, at more variables. PvPKing's statements are what drove me away from
spell to spell, and forced to look at separating spells and effects, etc. When he basically stated
you have to rank aftereffects, it was like a rock bouncing off of my head.

I will admit, early in this conversation, I was beginning to think that maybe Lore was a bit
overpowered, but now I can clearly see that it's not. (PvPKing finally got though my thick
skull, and that isn't easy, I can tell you for sure).

I guess I was not clear in my statement, so let me clear it up a bit. I think you need to take the
average of all Crafted spells, Ice, Fire, Death, etc, to come up with what Balance is.
Again, I default back to the statement, crafted spells may be designed for a reason, to fill a niche.
Is it very possible that Crafted don't have to follow any rules, that they are designed for sole purpose?

It really doesn't seem to make sense to compare Crafted spells directly to each other, as they seem
all over the place. In the below statement, you have left out storm 138, fire 110, Myth 128 and
death 114 which have to be added in, to balance out that Balance's spell is not overpowered.
So, I feel the below listing carries no weight or force in the conversation.

Now lets rank spells with effects by dpp(Strongest to weakest)
1)Loremaster: 108 dpp(2 weakened effects)
2)Savage Paw: 100 dpp(1 effect)
3)Winter Moon: 99 dpp(1 effect)
4)Luminous Weaver: 98 dpp(1 effect)
5)Krampus/Keeper of the Flame 81 dpp(1 effect)

Any way, the bottom line is we cannot compare Crafted to Non-Crafted, working out the details on
why Crafted are designed differently than the norm is something I'm looking at now. I keep thinking
that an excel spreadsheet, with all variables may help me narrow this down some, but that will take
time I do not have right now. Certainly has been a most interesting posting so far.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
Example 1:
Exceptions to rules do not invalidate those rules unless the exceptions are glaring or in the majority. Spells that "break" the rules (i.e are exceptions) are in the vast minority of all total spells. Are platypus no longer mammals because they lay eggs?(an exception to the rule that mammals give live birth)

Example 2:
Both of those spells follow the observed rule of reduced accuracy for higher damage per pip do they not? They do not follow the rule linearly but the do follow the rule.

Example 3:
The average of spectral blast isn't balance damage dpp, it is the average of the 3 elemental school's dpp. Hydra and Chimera are both the same design for spells however they do not imitate the dpp of the other schools(unlike spectral blast which does imitate the dpp for the elemental schools). Chimera dealing more damage than Hydra is consistent with higher dpp for higher cost.

Example 4: Once again do the number of exceptions to the rules outweigh the number of adherents to the rules?

The specific school damage spells(hydra, chimera, spectral blast) tend to deal more damage than balance damage spells because unlike balance damage they are shield-able by specific shields.
Hi Eric,

Ignoring the rule breaking, that are non crafted, cannot be done. If they do not fit in the rules,
then the rules are incorrect as stated. There can be no question in this area, as far as I'm
concerned. If Hydra and Spectral Blast do not match, then the rules as stated or the notion of
looking at averages, is incorrect, and needs further study.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
So according to you no spell in the game currently is overpowered? Ok lets go with your preferred word "unbalanced". Loremaster is unbalanced, my argument still stands.
As noted above, LoreMaster is perfectly balance, when you look at Crafted spells.
I don't think you will disagree on this, but I do think we need to understand why
crafted spells do not fit any set of rules.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer stated:
"It is not an apple to oranges comparison to compare crafted spells to their trained counterparts unless you stating that the crafted spells should be more powerful than the non crafted counterparts? "

This does make sense to me, as a TC is stronger than the basic spell. Therefore, a crafted
spell may well be designed stronger than any given standard average.
Certainly seems to be true for Balance, Death, Myth, Life and Ice.
The rule breakers would be Storm and Fire, why didn't they increase in crafted spells?

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Oct 10, 2014 wrote:
Because you seem to have your own set of rules about Spectral Blast, I'll give you a rule that even KI states. What is said: Sorcery does not draw upon internal aspects of the caster, nor does it rely on external forces. Instead, it is the creation of something new by combining elements in unique and powerful ways.
Source: https://www.wizard101.com/game/balance-school

What is explained here is that Balance doesn't rely on a "set of rules" like the other schools do. It can be as defensive as Ice, as hard hitting as Storm, as good a healer as Life, and as good a manipulator of Myth. This also justifies how Supernova and Mana Burn are allowed in PvP because Balance is meant to have unique and powerful spells.

"Sorcerers use Transmutation to blend forces of other schools for their spells."

This makes complete sense. Loremaster takes its Weakness from Luminous Weaver, takes its Mantle from Krampus, has them both weakened, and deals more damage as a trade-off. Loremaster lies perfectly in Balance's description, but I'll show you where other schools do not.

Fire: "Initially these spells will not do much damage, but they eventually stack for possible large amounts of damage in short amounts of time." What spell defies this? Fire Dragon. The first hit from this spell does more than it's DoT, while the initial hits are supposed to be weak. With enchants, the initial hit is usually stronger than the DoT.
Storm: "Storm wizards have the ability to unleash high amounts of damage from an early level, which is good, but they place too much emphasis on power, and therefore suffer in terms of accuracy." What spell defies this? Insane Bolt, 100% accuracy. What else? Storm gets large amounts of accuracy from gear.
Ice: "Ice, known as Thaumaturges, exhibit great patience and strength, but as a result they sometimes become rigid and inflexible." Rule breaker: Winter Moon, Snow Angel, Frostbite all give Ice the ability to become flexible in PvP.
Life: "Combined with this, they do low to moderate damage attack spells with extremely high accuracy rates." Rule breakers: Spinysaur, does more damage than even Sun Serpent, a Fire spell.
Death: No rule breaker.
Myth: "They have their own moderate damage spells with moderate accuracy, but a lot of their more functional spells deal with buffing, healing, and protecting their minions." Rule breaker: Just about all of their new spells have functions outside of focusing on their minion and their spells do well above average damage.

If every school was to follow the exact supposed rules, then the game would be extremely predictable and boring. Schools can have exceptions, but Loremaster isn't one, as KingsIsle clearly states in the description for Balance.

Spectral Blast also shows that Balance has no true dpp, as Hydra does the same dpp as Chimera and both being less than Spectral Blast's average dpp.
What rule am I making up about spectral blast? Once again I will ask you: Are you denying that Spectral Blast imitates the dpp of the associated elemental schools perfectly?

That's all very nice and good but the school descriptions tell me in general what types of spells I can expect from each school not whether said spells are balanced. As far as I know my argument is not "balance can't ave unique and powerful spells".

I am confused how you think Loremaster takes its effects from other schools considering both weakness and black mantle originate as balance school spells. Not that it has any bearing on my argument at all. No one is saying that Loremaster is an exception in terms of type of spell. What I am saying is that it is an exception in terms of balance damage dpp: It gains 2 effects and still does more dpp for a balance damage spell.

Spectral Blast, Hydra and Chimera do not follow balance damage dpp rules because they don't deal balance damage.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 12, 2014 wrote:
What rule am I making up about spectral blast? Once again I will ask you: Are you denying that Spectral Blast imitates the dpp of the associated elemental schools perfectly?

That's all very nice and good but the school descriptions tell me in general what types of spells I can expect from each school not whether said spells are balanced. As far as I know my argument is not "balance can't ave unique and powerful spells".

I am confused how you think Loremaster takes its effects from other schools considering both weakness and black mantle originate as balance school spells. Not that it has any bearing on my argument at all. No one is saying that Loremaster is an exception in terms of type of spell. What I am saying is that it is an exception in terms of balance damage dpp: It gains 2 effects and still does more dpp for a balance damage spell.

Spectral Blast, Hydra and Chimera do not follow balance damage dpp rules because they don't deal balance damage.
Spectral Blast, Hydra and Chimera do follow Balance dpp rules. Hydra and Chimera are roughly the exact same as most other Balance damage spells, however Spectral Blast is higher. That is clear proof that Spectral Blast is an exception to Balance dpp, even though it's a Balance spell. I never did deny that Spectral Blast doesn't follow the rules of Fire, Ice, or Storm's dpp, but what I'm saying is that if a balance spell follows other school dpp's, there isn't such thing as a valid dpp anymore. Balance doesn't have a stable dpp, justifying Loremaster.

"I am confused how you think Loremaster takes its effects from other schools considering both weakness and black mantle originate as balance school spells." It takes its effects from Luminous Weaver and Krampus, but what you said just gave me another thought. Other schools are borrowing Balance's aftereffects from their spells, such as Weakness and Black Mantle. Because of that, in return, Balance is borrowing other school's dpp in return for them having Balance's aftereffects. Do you not notice how Krampus, Luminous Weaver, Efreet, etc. are having Balance aftereffects? If they can take something from Balance, why can't Balance take something from the other schools?

"As far as I know my argument is not balance can't have unique and powerful spells."

Loremaster is a unique and powerful spell, do you not agree? It's a spell that bends the so called "rules" you brought up, has aftereffects, and does a great deal of damage for its pip cost for a Balance spell. KI warned us that Balance would get unique and powerful spells, Loremaster is one of them.

I am confused how you think Loremaster is overpowered, while no other school was meant to have aftereffects behind their spells, all but Balance and Ice. Balance was supposed to have defensive aftereffects, Ice was supposed to have stuns. Because other schools have stuns after their attacks (borrowed from Ice), Ice's dpp has been a lot higher recently, and that's not just because the pip cost increases. Colossus does 86-96 dpp with no effects, while Lord of Winter does 95-105 dpp, while removing 3 pips. Ice also falls alongside Balance and Death in dpp, as seen in King Artorius.

If you also haven't noticed, every school but Balance has been getting major aftereffects from their spells recently while Balance has been dealing pure damage with no other gain. Where is this seen? Ra compared to Efreet, Snow Angel, Medusa, Skeletal Dragon. Chimera compared to Basilisk, Rain of Fire, Sirens, Gnomes, Dr Von's Monster, Woolly Mammoth. Balance has been lacking a massive amount of aftereffects from spells, and Loremaster helped Balance catch up. Imagine if Savage Paw and Loremaster didn't come out, or if Mana Burn was truly nerfed to what people want it to be. Balance would be the only school playing with only pure damage while every other school in the game can do 2 things at once, that's why Balance needs Loremaster.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 11, 2014 wrote:
Hi Eric,

I think we have really made headway, in two areas, once in that we cannot look at crafted and
non-crafted in the same way. Second, just as PvPKing has brought up, we clearly need to look
outside of the box, at more variables. PvPKing's statements are what drove me away from
spell to spell, and forced to look at separating spells and effects, etc. When he basically stated
you have to rank aftereffects, it was like a rock bouncing off of my head.

I will admit, early in this conversation, I was beginning to think that maybe Lore was a bit
overpowered, but now I can clearly see that it's not. (PvPKing finally got though my thick
skull, and that isn't easy, I can tell you for sure).

I guess I was not clear in my statement, so let me clear it up a bit. I think you need to take the
average of all Crafted spells, Ice, Fire, Death, etc, to come up with what Balance is.
Again, I default back to the statement, crafted spells may be designed for a reason, to fill a niche.
Is it very possible that Crafted don't have to follow any rules, that they are designed for sole purpose?

It really doesn't seem to make sense to compare Crafted spells directly to each other, as they seem
all over the place. In the below statement, you have left out storm 138, fire 110, Myth 128 and
death 114 which have to be added in, to balance out that Balance's spell is not overpowered.
So, I feel the below listing carries no weight or force in the conversation.

Now lets rank spells with effects by dpp(Strongest to weakest)
1)Loremaster: 108 dpp(2 weakened effects)
2)Savage Paw: 100 dpp(1 effect)
3)Winter Moon: 99 dpp(1 effect)
4)Luminous Weaver: 98 dpp(1 effect)
5)Krampus/Keeper of the Flame 81 dpp(1 effect)

Any way, the bottom line is we cannot compare Crafted to Non-Crafted, working out the details on
why Crafted are designed differently than the norm is something I'm looking at now. I keep thinking
that an excel spreadsheet, with all variables may help me narrow this down some, but that will take
time I do not have right now. Certainly has been a most interesting posting so far.
You have not given me a reason why you think crafted and non-crafted cannot be compared in dpp. Also why are we averaging all the crafted spells to see where balance's should be? Balance damage was never the average of all other school's damage why are we averaging the crafted spells now? I agree that crafted spells fill a niche however the majority of them do follow the rules with 3 noted exceptions.

"It really doesn't seem to make sense to compare Crafted spells directly to each other, as they seem
all over the place"

So were not comparing the crafted spells to each other or to non-crafted spells? The spells I left out do not have aftereffects which is consistent with how the game is balanced. As a result they have a higher dpp. It makes no sense to compare loremaster to spells with no effect and when we do compare loremaster to spells with an effect we clearly see it is above and beyond said spells.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 11, 2014 wrote:
Hi Eric,

Ignoring the rule breaking, that are non crafted, cannot be done. If they do not fit in the rules,
then the rules are incorrect as stated. There can be no question in this area, as far as I'm
concerned. If Hydra and Spectral Blast do not match, then the rules as stated or the notion of
looking at averages, is incorrect, and needs further study.
Once again I will point out to you

1)Once again do the number of exceptions to the rules outweigh the number of adherents to the rules?
2)The specific school damage spells(hydra, chimera, spectral blast) tend to deal more damage than balance damage spells because unlike balance damage they are shield-able by specific shields

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Veracity8 on Oct 11, 2014 wrote:
As noted above, LoreMaster is perfectly balance, when you look at Crafted spells.
I don't think you will disagree on this, but I do think we need to understand why
crafted spells do not fit any set of rules.
No it isn't. When compared against its peers(spells with effects) Loremaster is far ahead while having 2 weakened effects as compared to every other crafted spell's one effect.