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ice in pvp

AuthorMessage
Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
shadow16141 wrote:
uh ice are pretty hard in pvp. they have mad resist mad health spells to drive people mad tower healing when i fought a ice she kept shielding healing when i attacked she kept frostbiting ice is so hard in pvp (''); x. x


Shadow,

Ice is no harder than Death, Fire, Storm, Balonce, or any other wizards, imo.

Plus, she was using the best spell she has, as Frost bite hits harder per pip than any other single hit Ice Spell. At level 60 Ice's resist is now average, not mad resist any more. We have no health spells, except the one that is given at the Low levels. We have to learn our Health spells, while Life, Balance and Death don't need them.
We do have tower shields and other shields, but we are a defensive school, expecially after wintertusk. Anyone can buy tower shields or learn them.
I see Ice very lucky to win now, they have no real advantage over any other wizard.

Joe.

Survivor
Mar 14, 2010
37
Armiger
May 10, 2010
2081
eddieandgalen wrote:
I agree. Triage is simply overpowered.


Triage removes damage from 1 person... It is a life spell... Yes, it can be found at the bazaar as a treasure card, sometimes... However, Since we are talking Ice here, meaning Snow Angel, it hits all players...

Now, if you go first, it hits, then it hits again on their turn, then, if they cast triage, it will hit one more time before it is removed...

Now, if they go first, it hits, then they get hit again when casting triage...

Yes, this may be a little frustrating, but Ice has many options... Ice Elf, is a great shield breaker, Frost Bite, Ice Wyvern Pet, and Snow Angel... All of these are DOT spells...

However, let me also point this out... If you do cast a DOT spell, and they decide to use triage, it leaves them wide open for a Wyvern with Gargantuan or a Colossus with gargantuan attack...

Also, Snow angel, when hitting more than 1 person, would mean that the entire team would have to use triage...

Sorry, but triage is a good spell, it is people that need to realize the strategy of countering triage...

Delver
Oct 08, 2010
260
Delver
Oct 08, 2010
260
thorvon65 wrote:
darthjt wrote:
How may I ask, should Ice be boosted?

Some of us Ice players have no problems on the battlefield. We also have DOT spells, the best resistance, highest health. We also get critical hit points.

Not sure what more you want, a cookie maybe?


Dart i myself dont have any problems in arena but you have to remember not everyone is fortunate enough to have the warterworks gear sometimes it just doesnt drop for them or takes longer. So dont critcise people that are asking for help give them advice or something


then work harder on the gear. it took me around 20 times to finally get my robe.

Delver
Oct 08, 2010
260
alexmf2 wrote:
darthjt wrote:
How may I ask, should Ice be boosted?

Some of us Ice players have no problems on the battlefield. We also have DOT spells, the best resistance, highest health. We also get critical hit points.

Not sure what more you want, a cookie maybe?


Best resistance? These stats are from the legendary waterworks clothes:
Ice: 34%
Death: 28%
Life: 27%
Myth: 31%
Balance: 28%
Fire: 29%
Even storm has 26%

That's hardly any more than the other schools. As for our health, it's not all that much of an advantage when some schools can get rid of the difference in the first couple turns. For DOT spells, Death and Fire both have them. Death's do a lot more damage, and don't even get me started about heckhound... Critical hit points (again using legendary clothes):

Ice: 80
Death: 96
Life: 90
Myth: 99
Balance: 88
Fire: 114
Storm: 121

Does that seem like a good amount of critical chance to you?



Some people dont realize that resistance helps ice more than other schools. Since their health is higher the resistance helps even more. But for critical, yes i think ice's should be raised slightly.

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
547
Lion359 wrote:
shadow16141 wrote:
uh ice are pretty hard in pvp. they have mad resist mad health spells to drive people mad tower healing when i fought a ice she kept shielding healing when i attacked she kept frostbiting ice is so hard in pvp (''); x. x


Shadow,

Ice is no harder than Death, Fire, Storm, Balonce, or any other wizards, imo.

Plus, she was using the best spell she has, as Frost bite hits harder per pip than any other single hit Ice Spell. At level 60 Ice's resist is now average, not mad resist any more. We have no health spells, except the one that is given at the Low levels. We have to learn our Health spells, while Life, Balance and Death don't need them.
We do have tower shields and other shields, but we are a defensive school, expecially after wintertusk. Anyone can buy tower shields or learn them.
I see Ice very lucky to win now, they have no real advantage over any other wizard.

Joe.
Wrong, ice has a health advantage over EVERY school.. Ice has the most resist of any school?? Is that not an advantage? Joe if you want to hit hard use your storm wizard. Gosh...

Explorer
May 12, 2010
77
travisAk wrote:
Lion359 wrote:
shadow16141 wrote:
uh ice are pretty hard in pvp. they have mad resist mad health spells to drive people mad tower healing when i fought a ice she kept shielding healing when i attacked she kept frostbiting ice is so hard in pvp (''); x. x


Shadow,

Ice is no harder than Death, Fire, Storm, Balonce, or any other wizards, imo.

Plus, she was using the best spell she has, as Frost bite hits harder per pip than any other single hit Ice Spell. At level 60 Ice's resist is now average, not mad resist any more. We have no health spells, except the one that is given at the Low levels. We have to learn our Health spells, while Life, Balance and Death don't need them.
We do have tower shields and other shields, but we are a defensive school, expecially after wintertusk. Anyone can buy tower shields or learn them.
I see Ice very lucky to win now, they have no real advantage over any other wizard.

Joe.
Wrong, ice has a health advantage over EVERY school.. Ice has the most resist of any school?? Is that not an advantage? Joe if you want to hit hard use your storm wizard. Gosh...


First, let me start off by saying;

Ice is the most strategic school!!!

Ice still has the Most Health...
Ice still has the Most Resistance...
Ice still has the Best DOT AOE Spell in the game...
Ice now has a plethora of DoT Attacks...

Now, some say, ice can't heal like other schools, besides pixie... Well, you can train them, you can buy them at the bazaar, you can get the life mastery amulet... Then with the higher resistance, your heal is far more valuable than any other school...

Now, have you tried my suggestion of keeping the Celestia Robe, instead of the new robe? Give you 5% more resistance... If you are complaining about the resistance being lowered... Yes, you lose 200 health and 17 critical points, but you get that very high resistance...

I have given you strategy after strategy on how to beat triage. Ice has several blades at it's disposal.. Ice has 45% blades, 45% treasure blades, 40% Blade, 40% treasure elemental blade, 35% elemental blade, 30% balance blade, 30% dragonblade, other treasure blades... The list goes on and on... If you don't quake me, I can have so many blades up, you could shield for all 4 hits of snow angel and still not survive...

Henestly, put it to rest... People complained about us before Wintertusk, now they are complaining about storm... Does anyone see the cycle? But then again, if the did not complain about us and we did not complain about them, none of this would ever happen right? lol

Problem is, everyone wants their school to be the best, the one school that can beat everyone... And if they do lose, there is something wrong with the game, the schools are unbalanced, yeah that must be it, lets go complain...

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
travisAk wrote:
Lion359 wrote:
shadow16141 wrote:
uh ice are pretty hard in pvp. they have mad resist mad health spells to drive people mad tower healing when i fought a ice she kept shielding healing when i attacked she kept frostbiting ice is so hard in pvp (''); x. x


Shadow,

Ice is no harder than Death, Fire, Storm, Balonce, or any other wizards, imo.

Plus, she was using the best spell she has, as Frost bite hits harder per pip than any other single hit Ice Spell. At level 60 Ice's resist is now average, not mad resist any more. We have no health spells, except the one that is given at the Low levels. We have to learn our Health spells, while Life, Balance and Death don't need them.
We do have tower shields and other shields, but we are a defensive school, expecially after wintertusk. Anyone can buy tower shields or learn them.
I see Ice very lucky to win now, they have no real advantage over any other wizard.

Joe.
Wrong, ice has a health advantage over EVERY school.. Ice has the most resist of any school?? Is that not an advantage? Joe if you want to hit hard use your storm wizard. Gosh...

--------------------------------------------------------------

Travis,

What you state is true, but I find that the extra life only means something in PvE, and not much in PvP.
So, what is an extra 400 life if a Storm wizard, life, or Myth can hit critical almost 33% of the time or better, and that is what I am seeing.

Lets take Storm's Levi, 1030, plus an internal crazy boost, add just the +30 blade and a Feint, and what does that extra Health mean, not a thing......that will hit over 3870 and if crit we get 7740 or more and no ice wizard can live.
Even if they do barely live, it will be taken out in a round or two.

Lets look at the base critical ratings.
Storm 121
Fire 114
Myth 99
Death 96
Life 90,
and then we drop all the way down to Ice at 80, plus the weakest hitting school in the game.

Now look as the base resist, which has really changed.
Ice 34%.
Myth at 31%, pretty close.
Fire now at 29% still close.
Balacen at 28%, still close.
Deat at 28%. stil close
Lfe at 27% (not bad)
and Storm at 26%. (not bad)
So Ice's only real advantage has been lost, it no longer has a resist that means much as all the other schools have moved up.

Plus look at the Boost that Storm, Myth, and Life got, it was a good size increase.
What did Ice get, it stayed the same, no increase. I was 34% before Wintertusk and now I'm still 34% after Wintertusk.

The only thing that improved on Ice was it's accuracy a bit and the health, it rose around 300 to 350 points.
I can go on with the Power Pips, etc, but you got the picture by now.

So from my point of view, Ice was winning in PvP, and KI decided to make sure all the complaints stopped, and Ice was stepped on in this update and hard.

Now as far as me wanting to hit hard, no problem, my Ice is on cold Ice, and my Balance and Storm are in PvP now.

Hope to see you in PvP,
Joseph LionHunter,

Balance Level 60,
Storm Level 60
Ice (oh yeah, I have that wizard too, but he just farms for gold now).


Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
Lion359 wrote:
What did Ice get, it stayed the same, no increase. I was 34% before Wintertusk and now I'm still 34% after Wintertusk.

The only thing that improved on Ice was it's accuracy a bit and the health, it rose around 300 to 350 points.
I can go on with the Power Pips, etc, but you got the picture by now.


While I am not eager to get embroiled in this thread, you do have a few errors that I thought I would point out. Here are the ice gear totals (hat, robe, and boots) before and after:

Celestian Gear

+885 health
+30 critical
+30 critical block
+37% resist
+9% ice target
+28% ice damage

Waterworks Gear

+1040 health
+9% accuracy
+34% ice damage
+34% resist
+80 ice critical
+45 critical block
+15% incoming

So health went up 155, accuracy stayed the same except that it is now a global boost, ice damage went up 6, resist went down 3, we have ice specific critical at 80 instead of global at 30, global critical block is up 15, and we have a new incoming healing boost. So, the standard "to kill damage" with celestian gear is 2336 (base ice life at 60) + 885 / .63 (37% resist) = 5113ish. With waterworks gear its 2336+1040 / .66 = 5115ish. So, effectively, as of the gear, we're at the same place in terms of damage to kill an ice.

Did Ice get shafted compared to every other school with this gear? Yes. Any good mathematically inclined player can plainly see it. Is it a huge shaft? No. But it does have bearing on the more high level matches. The real discussion item here is the celestian robe vs. the frostbit cape. so let's compare those:

Celestian Snow Smock

+354 Health
+3% ice accuracy
+11% ice damage
+17% resist
+10 Critical
+10 Critical Block

Frostbit Cape

+520 Health
+3% accuracy
+14% ice damage
+12% resist
+27 ice critical
+18 critical block
+5% Incoming Healing

So, for 5% resist, you gain a compensating 166 points of health, 3% global accuracy instead of ice accuracy (helps casting all those satyrs) 3% ice damage, 17 more total ice critical, 8 more critical block, and 5% incoming healing boost. While its true that using celestian snow smock will give you a 39% resist rating (and a higher resist rating means that the "to kill" damage will scale faster) there is a significant price to pay. For me, its the extra 8 critical block. With every other class running around now with well over 50% damage boost and high chance of critical, the critical block rating is really the only saving grace for ice. True, its only 5 more points than the majority of other schools, but lets face it, still better that than 3 points less that the majority right? Stop those criticals people! Its your only hope!

LOL. Anyway, just wanted to give you the figures. For me, the game is still largely balanced. Yes, ice did get shafted by comparison (though many feel that it was justly so) but there are at least compensating factors. Personally, I feel that the shafting was much less about numbers and more about school individuality... but that's a different thread.

Explorer
Jul 31, 2009
52
travisAk wrote:
Lion359 wrote:
shadow16141 wrote:
uh ice are pretty hard in pvp. they have mad resist mad health spells to drive people mad tower healing when i fought a ice she kept shielding healing when i attacked she kept frostbiting ice is so hard in pvp (''); x. x


Shadow,

Ice is no harder than Death, Fire, Storm, Balonce, or any other wizards, imo.

Plus, she was using the best spell she has, as Frost bite hits harder per pip than any other single hit Ice Spell. At level 60 Ice's resist is now average, not mad resist any more. We have no health spells, except the one that is given at the Low levels. We have to learn our Health spells, while Life, Balance and Death don't need them.
We do have tower shields and other shields, but we are a defensive school, expecially after wintertusk. Anyone can buy tower shields or learn them.
I see Ice very lucky to win now, they have no real advantage over any other wizard.

Joe.
Wrong, ice has a health advantage over EVERY school.. Ice has the most resist of any school?? Is that not an advantage? Joe if you want to hit hard use your storm wizard. Gosh...


Some people dont have a legendary of every school at their fingertips. The point of having ice be boosted would be so that people who dont play for 18 hours a day and have only one or two legendaries can have those legendaries actually be able to DO something in pvp.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2081
alexmf2 wrote:
travisAk wrote:
Lion359 wrote:
shadow16141 wrote:
uh ice are pretty hard in pvp. they have mad resist mad health spells to drive people mad tower healing when i fought a ice she kept shielding healing when i attacked she kept frostbiting ice is so hard in pvp (''); x. x


Shadow,

Ice is no harder than Death, Fire, Storm, Balonce, or any other wizards, imo.

Plus, she was using the best spell she has, as Frost bite hits harder per pip than any other single hit Ice Spell. At level 60 Ice's resist is now average, not mad resist any more. We have no health spells, except the one that is given at the Low levels. We have to learn our Health spells, while Life, Balance and Death don't need them.
We do have tower shields and other shields, but we are a defensive school, expecially after wintertusk. Anyone can buy tower shields or learn them.
I see Ice very lucky to win now, they have no real advantage over any other wizard.

Joe.
Wrong, ice has a health advantage over EVERY school.. Ice has the most resist of any school?? Is that not an advantage? Joe if you want to hit hard use your storm wizard. Gosh...


Some people dont have a legendary of every school at their fingertips. The point of having ice be boosted would be so that people who dont play for 18 hours a day and have only one or two legendaries can have those legendaries actually be able to DO something in pvp.


Ice Can Actually DO something In PvP... Other players, have no problems in PvP, and have a good strategy... Maybe if you stop complaining and start listening to what others ahve to say and take the advice that is given, you would not be losing... But that is your choice, be close minded and whine, or be open minded and learn...

Delver
Aug 15, 2009
272
Up to 69% to 71% resistance, 4400 of health or even more, and on top of they can hit as high storm with few blades.

Elemental blades surly ones to blame for giving ice so much high damage...

Their minion is 3 times better than storm minion, yet we storm wizards have ask for a better minion, but nothing.The only school that got their minion improve was Ice.

Ice have obtain power, high critical and huge resistance. Imagine if the game goes level 90, how more unbalance and over rated Ice will be?

My point is not to complain just about Ice but take a look at how few things have gotten the game unbalanced.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1559
Daviato wrote:
Up to 69% to 71% resistance, 4400 of health or even more, and on top of they can hit as high storm with few blades.

Elemental blades surly ones to blame for giving ice so much high damage...

Their minion is 3 times better than storm minion, yet we storm wizards have ask for a better minion, but nothing.The only school that got their minion improve was Ice.

Ice have obtain power, high critical and huge resistance. Imagine if the game goes level 90, how more unbalance and over rated Ice will be?

My point is not to complain just about Ice but take a look at how few things have gotten the game unbalanced.

If at the beginning of the game, every school had been giving the same amount of damage, health, resistance, and pip ration. Player wouldn't had been complaining about how stronger other schools have become.

Another factor to blame are enchanted cards, enchanted cards had really boosted cards damage way to high which exploits its main original damage.

Well what will be the point if every school had the same damage cards, health ext? The answer is simple, every school has its own element, instead of differencing schools by damage or health, KI should have done difference between mastering it's school element.

Therefor, the game would have been more balance and less complaining about other schools becoming "overpowered". Hopefully KI's next game they don't make they same mistake...


Ice isn't an "immortal" school. Dude, Ice's new Wooly Mammoth only did 213 damage when I got hit and I only had an Elemental Shield. If I didn't, it would have hit 426 damage. Ice has gone weak in damage, but high resist. And also, the 70% resist and such ISN'T universal! Converts are the easiest way to take out Ice if you're Fire/Storm. No problem!

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
I really have to disagree with your posting, as it's so narrow in what it states.
I have to ask, did you just get beat by an Ice, is that the point of this post?

Fire is at the top of the PvP, please go read Digby Stronghearts last posting, on Fire. He pokes fun at fire, as once he switched from Ice to Fire, he was absolutely unbeatable in the last tourney.
Every posting that I have read over the last six months or so, clearly state that Fire is number one.
Myth is second, and there is no denying that to any degree.
Both of these schools have all the tools needed to stay on top.
Ice does not have all the tools needed, to beat these two school, unless the player can outsmart the Fire or Myth.

Ice does have good resist now, but only against two other schools. Plus it's Crafted Gear only that has high resist. But you fail to mention that it's has much lower resisit to all other schools once this is put on and you enter Pvp.

You also fail to mention that now Storm has super high resist to two other schools just like Ice does. In fact each school has super high resist to two other schools, it's not just Ice with the new crafted gear.

Yes, Ice did get a good hitting spell, and it should have. It does not compare to Storms Level 68 spell, I know, I have a level 70 Storm.
It does not compare to Myth, yes I have a level 70 Myth also.

Ice has had the weakest spells in the game, just ahead of Life, imo.
Remember, Ice only had Frostbit and Snow Angle, and both of those where killed by Triage. Why, cause neither has a stun built in, like others do.

It had to be given a one hit spells, just so it could do something in PvP.

It's massive health means nothing, it can be taken out in one hit by Myth, Fire, or Life. Balance can't compete, as you have to blade up and trap up to get anything out of it's spell.
Death gets a great return on it's spell, and leaves a -25 heal.
Storms spell can be boosted to unreal levels, and it's doesn't even need it with it's other spells.

Bottom line, Ice has to get the next Crafting level, and that is not easy with all the Sunstones required. Then it has to get even more to Craft the Gear. If they do that, or any other school does that, hey, they deserve it.

Ice is a hard school to beat, but if you are a Myth or Fire, you have an issue with your setup and play, it's not that Ice is that hard to beat.

That's my opinion,
Joe.

Survivor
Dec 28, 2010
40
I think ice need have less health to much health. Other day i was pvp fire lvl 70 against Ice lvl 70 Warlord match. Ice had 75 proof fire now thats insane. But best part about it is after 3 hours of one match i still won. But this need to change Ice health make it even as balance or life school.Plus proof need be fix 75 proof what where you think in when made new gear in new world. Need change proof K I thanks Allan StrongThief LVL 70 :)

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
Daviato wrote:
Up to 69% to 71% resistance, 4400 of health or even more, and on top of they can hit as high storm with few blades.


Storm can achieve as much as 63% resist to ice and fire, and then they wouldn't even have a prism option to reduce damage like you do. They could even take Ice or Fire all the way up to 74%. Doesn't mean its a good idea does it? To hit as high as storm, well, let's use your damage boost as a baseline shall we? According to a previous post, you have an 89% boost. Taking 2 4 pip spells which happen to both be single hitters, let's just see how many blades ice needs to "hit as hard as storm" shall we? I'm going to use an ice gear boost of 37% which is actually quite, quite good for a high storm resistance ice.

4 pip Kraken w/ Daviato's boost: 982 - 1096 or 1965 - 2192 w/crit
4 pip ice wyvern w/ Ice boost: 458 - 541 or 917 - 1082 w/ crit

So, off the top, even with crit Ice is below your base kraken damage. Let's go ahead and add 2 blades, an ice blade and a single use ice amulet blade for 40% and 45% (both of which you could "disarm" btw).

4 pip ice wyvern w/ ice boost & 2 blades: 931 - 1098

Obviously, I didn't bother to figure critical damage and why would I? Odds are remote that they'll critical and not be blocked. I'd also like to point out that since it took them two rounds of blading, you are extremely likely to have enough pips for a single leviathan which would wipe out both of those blades. And yes, I was illustrating a point, so I also didn't figure with gargantuan, resistance, etc, blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum. Again, why would I? Armor pierce is a VERY real threat and you can't assume gargantuan or colossal on everything anymore.

Daviato wrote:
Elemental blades surly ones to blame for giving ice so much high damage...


Nothing stopping you from using them either right?

Daviato wrote:
Their minion is 3 times better than storm minion, yet we storm wizards have ask for a better minion, but nothing.The only school that got their minion improve was Ice.


He's an aggressive single target hitter with low health. Proactively use your minion to keep him occupied, or just tempest him away.

Daviato wrote:
Ice have obtain power, high critical and huge resistance. Imagine if the game goes level 90, how more unbalance and over rated Ice will be?


If you want to get into the new gear, then be realistic. Everyone can now get extremely high critical block, for which Ice would have to make bigger sacrifices. Storm can also go with the crafted boots which bolsters your resist to ice and fire and gives you +119 critical block to ice and +89 to fire critical block. Crit then would almost never be a factor from ice while simultaneously giving you more staying power against them. You could also farm for the "Storm Caller's Rangers" which give you all that and add +3 armor pierce.

Daviato wrote:
My point is not to complain just about Ice but take a look at how few things have gotten the game unbalanced.

If at the beginning of the game, every school had been giving the same amount of damage, health, resistance, and pip ration. Player wouldn't had been complaining about how stronger other schools have become.


How, exactly, do you do that and make different schools of magic actually different? Storm has naturally higher hitting spells, so as soon as accuracy is removed as a factor, they'd automatically be on top. Do you see the problem here?

Daviato wrote:
Another factor to blame are enchanted cards, enchanted cards had really boosted cards damage way to high which exploits its main original damage.


KI compensated for that by giving everyone decent global resist. Additionally, those cards only dramatically increase damage per pip on lower rank cards. It fades out in importance as spells gain in rank.

Daviato wrote:
Well what will be the point if every school had the same damage cards, health ext? The answer is simple, every school has its own element, instead of differencing schools by damage or health, KI should have done difference between mastering it's school element.

Therefor, the game would have been more balance and less complaining about other schools becoming "overpowered". Hopefully KI's next game they don't make they same mistake...


I'm trying to understand what it is that you mean. How would everyone master their own "element" and maintain interest in playing other schools when there would be no real fundamental mathematical differences between the different schools? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

Survivor
Aug 27, 2011
13
Think of the storm the most powerful school and ice the most highest health school

Ice can simply put 5 tower shields into his deck if he is level 60 so there he can use many tower shields WHILE there blades are giving them lots of power the storm wizard at level 60 has a shield for fire and ice but its more difficult because the ice has snow angel plus they can simply power up easily and use there wooly mammoth at level 70 this is not good the tower shield is ruining it for the storm wizards so is there resistance plus there spells such as frost giant stun but do low damage at the same time that card is so effective when it criticals simply the storm wizards are powerful and can pwn the ice but not possible with there resistance about 65% and the tower shield making the resistance 80% so then the critical for the leviathan or storm lord will only help it up to 50% while that 20% goes to the ice that 20% should be for the storm

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2081
gtarhannon wrote:
Daviato wrote:
Up to 69% to 71% resistance, 4400 of health or even more, and on top of they can hit as high storm with few blades.


Storm can achieve as much as 63% resist to ice and fire, and then they wouldn't even have a prism option to reduce damage like you do. They could even take Ice or Fire all the way up to 74%. Doesn't mean its a good idea does it? To hit as high as storm, well, let's use your damage boost as a baseline shall we? According to a previous post, you have an 89% boost. Taking 2 4 pip spells which happen to both be single hitters, let's just see how many blades ice needs to "hit as hard as storm" shall we? I'm going to use an ice gear boost of 37% which is actually quite, quite good for a high storm resistance ice.


Yes, but then, Storm would be leaving themself wide open to all other schools. Was it not you that said something simular about Ice gear and criticals?

4 pip Kraken w/ Daviato's boost: 982 - 1096 or 1965 - 2192 w/crit
4 pip ice wyvern w/ Ice boost: 458 - 541 or 917 - 1082 w/ crit


Are you factoring in Resistance? And the severe health difference between Ice and Storm? And why is Ice only given 37% that does not include pain giver by a pet, when the 89% storm boost does include a 6% pet increase. You can't stack the deck, you must be equal in all factors.

And for storm to have that much damage boost, they have to be wearing the wintertusk ring and athame, which give 9% boost, while lowering their health substancially to 2200.

So, off the top, even with crit Ice is below your base kraken damage. Let's go ahead and add 2 blades, an ice blade and a single use ice amulet blade for 40% and 45% (both of which you could "disarm" btw).

4 pip ice wyvern w/ ice boost & 2 blades: 931 - 1098

Which means, if Ice hit's critical, storm is basically dead!


Obviously, I didn't bother to figure critical damage and why would I? Odds are remote that they'll critical and not be blocked. I'd also like to point out that since it took them two rounds of blading, you are extremely likely to have enough pips for a single leviathan which would wipe out both of those blades. And yes, I was illustrating a point, so I also didn't figure with gargantuan, resistance, etc, blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum. Again, why would I? Armor pierce is a VERY real threat and you can't assume gargantuan or colossal on everything anymore.


You are making a statement that Critical and Critical Block are on the exact same scale. Where are your facts and evidence to prove this?

Also, Ice has the ability to cast DoT spells and effectively damage storm if storm does use a shield. While storm is not given a specific DoT spell to call upon everytime. So, while those pips are being saved up to use use Leviathan, Storm shields and tower shields can be used to severely decrease the damage of that spell. And 1 elemental blade saves those school blades from being removed by Leviathan.


Daviato wrote:
Elemental blades surly ones to blame for giving ice so much high damage...


Nothing stopping you from using them either right?


You are absolutely correct here, storm can use storm blades, treasure storm blades, elemental blades, treasure elemental blades.
However, once again, if storm does use all of the time to blade, with it low health, giving schools plenty of time to shield up, how much damage will truly be done? While other schools are given DoT spells, so that while they blade up, even if the opponent shields, the spell will go through the shields, causing most of the damage after the shields are gone.

Daviato wrote:
Their minion is 3 times better than storm minion, yet we storm wizards have ask for a better minion, but nothing.The only school that got their minion improve was Ice.


He's an aggressive single target hitter with low health. Proactively use your minion to keep him occupied, or just tempest him away.

Daviato wrote:
Ice have obtain power, high critical and huge resistance. Imagine if the game goes level 90, how more unbalance and over rated Ice will be?


If you want to get into the new gear, then be realistic. Everyone can now get extremely high critical block, for which Ice would have to make bigger sacrifices. Storm can also go with the crafted boots which bolsters your resist to ice and fire and gives you +119 critical block to ice and +89 to fire critical block. Crit then would almost never be a factor from ice while simultaneously giving you more staying power against them. You could also farm for the "Storm Caller's Rangers" which give you all that and add +3 armor pierce.


Again, you are stating that critical and critical block are on the same scale. It does not matter how many points you have, if you have a high enough critical points, you have a higher chance to critical. Storm has a slightly higher chance to hit critical than Ice does, it does not mean Storm will always critical, nor that Ice will never critical. Block is on a different scale, therefor, just because someone hits critical, does not mean it will be blocked, or wont be blocked. You can have 500 critical points and you opponent can have only 100 critical block points. You will almost always critical with 500 points, but that does not mean it wont be blocked with only 100 critical block points.

So again, you are asking or telling storm to give up all resistance and go for pierce armor and critical chance in order to survive. While there are many different schools and not just fire and ice.

All the while, Ice is not having to give up anything to get this ability at resistance to all schools, more resistance to fire and storm, critical block!


Daviato wrote:
My point is not to complain just about Ice but take a look at how few things have gotten the game unbalanced.

If at the beginning of the game, every school had been giving the same amount of damage, health, resistance, and pip ration. Player wouldn't had been complaining about how stronger other schools have become.


How, exactly, do you do that and make different schools of magic actually different? Storm has naturally higher hitting spells, so as soon as accuracy is removed as a factor, they'd automatically be on top. Do you see the problem here?


I have no idea what davito is saying here. Point being, sacrifices are supposed to be made.

Take the Level 68 crafted robe of Ice. What is being sacrificed?
Now, take a look at the other crafted robes for all the other schools.... It is clear cut and factual that they all give up a lot more than Ice does.

Daviato wrote:
Another factor to blame are enchanted cards, enchanted cards had really boosted cards damage way to high which exploits its main original damage.


KI compensated for that by giving everyone decent global resist. Additionally, those cards only dramatically increase damage per pip on lower rank cards. It fades out in importance as spells gain in rank.


Actually, I am not even sure why Davito said that, as enchantments are geared more to help storm than any other school, especially Ice!

Daviato wrote:
Well what will be the point if every school had the same damage cards, health ext? The answer is simple, every school has its own element, instead of differencing schools by damage or health, KI should have done difference between mastering it's school element.

Therefor, the game would have been more balance and less complaining about other schools becoming "overpowered". Hopefully KI's next game they don't make they same mistake...


I'm trying to understand what it is that you mean. How would everyone master their own "element" and maintain interest in playing other schools when there would be no real fundamental mathematical differences between the different schools? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't understand what you are trying to say.


I don't understand the last part either... Davito has a few really good points but sometimes I think he gets emotional.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1559
Daviato wrote:
Up to 69% to 71% resistance, 4400 of health or even more, and on top of they can hit as high storm with few blades.

Elemental blades surly ones to blame for giving ice so much high damage...

Their minion is 3 times better than storm minion, yet we storm wizards have ask for a better minion, but nothing.The only school that got their minion improve was Ice.

Ice have obtain power, high critical and huge resistance. Imagine if the game goes level 90, how more unbalance and over rated Ice will be?

My point is not to complain just about Ice but take a look at how few things have gotten the game unbalanced.


Ice only has that resist to Fire and Storm. While all other schools are free of prisms. I agree that it's unfair for Fire and Storm to stock up prisms in their deck, taking up room and taking out some spells that they could use, while other schools won't have to worry about this.

Ice takes a while to hit high amounts of damage. They need to stock on on Ice Blades, Elemental Blades, and then Balefrost.

How is Ice's minion 3 times better then the Storm minion? Do you not get it? Those minions cover up their weaknesses! Storm's minion covers up for them by defense, the object in which they lack in. While Ice, a weak damaging school, will cover up their weaknesses with power. In which their minion gives them. Storm and Ice have gotten the opposite minions. Fire has a weakness too. Many people have not figured this out. Have you not noticed, that if Fire didn't have a DoT at level 68, they would be doomed? Fire's doom is a shield. No matter what. Their initial hit comes by the first attack. The rest being weaker. Fire's minion covers up for the shields, leaving Fire to hit with an opening. The 3 elements are epic. Their ways are beyond any other school in wizard101. Those are the only 3 schools that cover up for their weaknesses, with just 1 simple spell. That's why they're easiest to play with. Yet, they're still not perfect.

It may seem like Ice has gained power. But not as much as any other school. Ice's new spell, Wooly Mammoth, hits less then Gnomes! (It's Gnomes! not Gnomes.) Ice still lacks in many things. Their stun is what gives them a chance. I find it fascinating how Ice gets stuns, while their attacks are weak. They can shield up while their enemy is stunned. Or even plan for a more powerful spell. This would perfectly go with Life: Stunning your opponent when you have low health, then heal.

The huge resist can be taken care of 1 simple spell that wizard101 has given you. The Prism. This converts the damage, so the resist won't effect. The shields won't either, if you have correct timing.

You're still going for the imbalanced side aren't you? Well, I can tell you the pros and cons of each school, and how they can cover up for it:
Fire: This one is the hardest to understand. Everyone keeps on thinking of a DoT, burning off the shields. Well, for Fire Dragon, what's the initial hit? The burn, or the attack? Rain of Fire, burn, or attack? Both amount to the attack. The DoT will clear up shields for them, which will cover up for their next spell. But Fire too, has to gain pips, just like any other school. If Fire uses a spell to take off the shields, it would either consume their blade, or consume their pips. This is where Fire meets its doom.
Myth: Not the hardest, but yet still hard to figure out. Their initial hit comes with the second strike. Leaving a big disadvantage for shields. This is where the universal resist comes in. The universal resist will act as an internal shield to Myth spells. 1 shield can also block Basilisk. The initial hit is the attack, not the DoT. Now, you may not be able to get through the stuns. Myth's advantage: Stunning their opponent with Medusa, then using a spell to take out their shields. Or even to stop their opponent's heal. Myth is a really cool school to play with, but here's when it meets its doom. You don't always need to double shield. Notice how Orthrus is 22 levels from their most powerful spell. Leaving it behind, replacing it with Basilisk. It's related spell. Both odd numbers. Now, you may weakness or single shield. Don't get intimidated by their Minotaur. Neither Basilisk. You can weakness, plague or even Virulent Plague. Myth loses when you defend yourself.

Death: A very weak, yet powerful school. Their advantage: Their DoT's let them break shields for the real hit, disadvantage: Striking them with a powerful spell, so they'll be tempted to stack up a hard attack to heal, or waste their pips for Sacrifice.

Life: Advantage: They can heal just about anything.
Disadvantage: Striking them multiple times, hard and fast. Or even a shield.

Storm: Advantage: Power
Disadvantage: Lack of defense and Health

Ice: Advantage: Defense and Health
Disadvantage: Lack of Power

Balance: Advantage: Can strike from any school, getting around shields, using their spells to their advantage.
Disadvantage: Any shield will block any spell, just like the blade.

Now do you see everyone's pro and con?

I'll explain Ice's even further: Their defense may be high, but the enemy can use a convert, dropping Ice's defense down to the ground.
Their power may be high, but the enemy can simply shield, guard against their spells.

Storm's: They can be easily shielded, but can also use a spell to get around things.
They can build up their defense, and drop their power.

For Ice to do the same amount of damage as Storm, they must let their guard down on defenses. Storm, has to to the opposite: Replace their insane damage for defense.

Every school has their own sacrifice for one thing, Ice cannot do the damage that Storm does without dropping their defenses. Storm can't defend as much as Ice without dropping their damage. Storm and Ice, Power and Defense, can't combine. Each wizard must choose one path. Power or Defense. Whichever the wizard chooses will determine their lack of one thing or the other.

It may seem like Ice is immortal with their gear, but they do make sacrifices for damage. Just like Storm for resist.

Wizard101 is balanced, because each wizard can choose their own path, go 1 way. Go through each and every one of their weaknesses, make them stronger. Each wizard has their job to create perfection, find the way to it. Your wizard won't do it for you, you're the one that has to do the work. Thanks for reading this insanely long post.

Survivor
Jul 19, 2011
21
hmm guess you struggle with ice i usually can take them out with a shatter or earth basilisk combo :D

Explorer
Jan 07, 2010
89
Ice is not immortal and if you are losing to an ice than your strategy for ice is bad. Strategies for pvp have to change depending on the school of magic you are fighting. Go to the arena and watch some level 70 matches of Ice vs another school 2x out of 3 the Ice will lose. That has been my experience when watching the warlord matches.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
darthjt wrote:
Yes, but then, Storm would be leaving themself wide open to all other schools. Was it not you that said something simular about Ice gear and criticals?


You'll note in the section of text you quoted from me where I said "Doesn't mean its a good idea does it?".

darthjt wrote:
Are you factoring in Resistance? And the severe health difference between Ice and Storm? And why is Ice only given 37% that does not include pain giver by a pet, when the 89% storm boost does include a 6% pet increase. You can't stack the deck, you must be equal in all factors.


It was a linear damage comparison factoring absolutely no resistance to demonstrate a point. I used 37% in response to very limited information on a range of storm resistance from 69% to 71%. At the 71% using the new gear, the pet would require one selfish talent forcing a choice between pain giver and spritely. Coupled with the fact that there is another way to get to 71% storm resist (which you don't even need any of the new gear for), I concluded that there are too many variables to pick a specific damage. I went with an average ice damage for a config hitting between 69% and 71% storm resist. I don't presume to know how Daviato got to 89% because, for instance, you can get to 87% without a pet now.

darthjt wrote:
And for storm to have that much damage boost, they have to be wearing the wintertusk ring and athame, which give 9% boost, while lowering their health substancially to 2200.


Daviato made his damage decisions based on his strategy. I used his numbers to demonstrate his personal damage superiority. That's all. The fact remains that using the new crafted gear exposes a greater potential weakness than the old gear.

darthjt wrote:
Which means, if Ice hit's critical, storm is basically dead!


If your storm has just over 2000 health and absolutely no resistance or shields to ice, then yes, I'd agree.

darthjt wrote:
You are making a statement that Critical and Critical Block are on the exact same scale. Where are your facts and evidence to prove this?


I made no such statement. What I said was that should an ice go with the new crafted gear, the level of critical obtained, while wonderful for an ice, is still likely to be blocked.

darthjt wrote:
Also, Ice has the ability to cast DoT spells and effectively damage storm if storm does use a shield. While storm is not given a specific DoT spell to call upon everytime. So, while those pips are being saved up to use use Leviathan, Storm shields and tower shields can be used to severely decrease the damage of that spell. And 1 elemental blade saves those school blades from being removed by Leviathan.


You and I both know that you can have more copies of treasure cards (storm elf) than regular cards and there is always shatter. The one item that you and I are in agreement on is the balance blade. I think that storm should have the storm equivalent of shatter to remove all positive charms from one target for 3 pips. I also think disarm should be free.

darthjt wrote:
You are absolutely correct here, storm can use storm blades, treasure storm blades, elemental blades, treasure elemental blades.
However, once again, if storm does use all of the time to blade, with it low health, giving schools plenty of time to shield up, how much damage will truly be done? While other schools are given DoT spells, so that while they blade up, even if the opponent shields, the spell will go through the shields, causing most of the damage after the shields are gone.


Quit pretending you don't have access to shatter or storm elf.

darthjt wrote:
Again, you are stating that critical and critical block are on the same scale.


No I'm not. Do you ever read anything thoroughly?

darthjt wrote:
It does not matter how many points you have, if you have a high enough critical points, you have a higher chance to critical. Storm has a slightly higher chance to hit critical than Ice does, it does not mean Storm will always critical, nor that Ice will never critical. Block is on a different scale, therefor, just because someone hits critical, does not mean it will be blocked, or wont be blocked. You can have 500 critical points and you opponent can have only 100 critical block points. You will almost always critical with 500 points, but that does not mean it wont be blocked with only 100 critical block points.


Ok. cool. Well the level of critical that ice can obtain now is similar to storm's old critical. With a block rating of only 98, storm almost never landed an unblocked crit on me. If storm uses the new gear, they can get a block of +119 to ice before adding in other values.

darthjt wrote:
So again, you are asking or telling storm to give up all resistance and go for pierce armor and critical chance in order to survive. While there are many different schools and not just fire and ice.


I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm pointing out options instead of crying all the time. I'm not looking at an all or nothing proposition and I realize that they could, for instance, combine the new boots (giving big resist and crit block to fire and ice as well as 3% armor pierce) with say a waterworks hat and robe.

darthjt wrote:
All the while, Ice is not having to give up anything to get this ability at resistance to all schools, more resistance to fire and storm, critical block!


Untrue. For instance, on an item by item basis ice has far and away the greatest percentage drop in damage for both the crafted hat and robe when trading from the waterworks equivalents. There is more of course, but it is best suited for another thread.

darthjt wrote:
Take the Level 68 crafted robe of Ice. What is being sacrificed?


*sigh* Its level 66 crafted to start with. First, let's start with admitting that ice got shafted in the new waterworks gear. Even you admitted it on June 1st, 2011 with this quote:

darthjt wrote:
Now, I agree, Ice could/should not have lost any resistance with what all the other schools were given, but in no way has the update made Ice weak or vulnerable!


This lead to two distinct ice camps, those that want damage and those that want resist. The damage camp loses 4% ice damage (a 28.57% loss in damage) on a swap to the level 66 crafted. The resist camp loses 5% global resist (a 29.41% loss) in the swap. That's a big drop for either mentality to take. If you consider what darthjt said, then one can understand why he would chose specifically the robe to try and make the case that ice "lost nothing" since that is where the missing 3% global resist should have been. A more detailed analysis probably belongs in another thread.

darthjt wrote:
Now, take a look at the other crafted robes for all the other schools.... It is clear cut and factual that they all give up a lot more than Ice does.


Again, probably a discussion for another thread. I recommend reading up on your vocabulary though because factual statements shouldn't require one to share the same point of view in order to be true.

Mastermind
Jul 25, 2010
387
joujou11cool wrote:
Daviato wrote:
Up to 69% to 71% resistance, 4400 of health or even more, and on top of they can hit as high storm with few blades.

Elemental blades surly ones to blame for giving ice so much high damage...

Their minion is 3 times better than storm minion, yet we storm wizards have ask for a better minion, but nothing.The only school that got their minion improve was Ice.

Ice have obtain power, high critical and huge resistance. Imagine if the game goes level 90, how more unbalance and over rated Ice will be?

My point is not to complain just about Ice but take a look at how few things have gotten the game unbalanced.

If at the beginning of the game, every school had been giving the same amount of damage, health, resistance, and pip ration. Player wouldn't had been complaining about how stronger other schools have become.

Another factor to blame are enchanted cards, enchanted cards had really boosted cards damage way to high which exploits its main original damage.

Well what will be the point if every school had the same damage cards, health ext? The answer is simple, every school has its own element, instead of differencing schools by damage or health, KI should have done difference between mastering it's school element.

Therefor, the game would have been more balance and less complaining about other schools becoming "overpowered". Hopefully KI's next game they don't make they same mistake...


Ice isn't an "immortal" school. Dude, Ice's new Wooly Mammoth only did 213 damage when I got hit and I only had an Elemental Shield. If I didn't, it would have hit 426 damage. Ice has gone weak in damage, but high resist. And also, the 70% resist and such ISN'T universal! Converts are the easiest way to take out Ice if you're Fire/Storm. No problem!
You must have high resist then because wooly mammoth's damage is 800-900 plus a stun so i don't think you got the picture.

Champion
Jul 30, 2010
441
Daviato wrote:
Up to 69% to 71% resistance, 4400 of health or even more, and on top of they can hit as high storm with few blades.

Elemental blades surly ones to blame for giving ice so much high damage...

Their minion is 3 times better than storm minion, yet we storm wizards have ask for a better minion, but nothing.The only school that got their minion improve was Ice.

Ice have obtain power, high critical and huge resistance. Imagine if the game goes level 90, how more unbalance and over rated Ice will be?

My point is not to complain just about Ice but take a look at how few things have gotten the game unbalanced.
storm minion is meant to distract bosses from the storm wizards while the storm wizard hits. ice does so little damage until higher lvls that the minion does the damage for the ice wizard and the highest universal resist possible that i have seen is 55% with 64% in fire and storm. ice is not immortal i have beaten ice with 50% balance resist before. the highest sinle school resist is 74%. ice is as immortal as storm.