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so done with the cheating bosses.

AuthorMessage
Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
stormninja542 on Apr 24, 2014 wrote:
"Committed players who have been with the game for years, players who have been active contributors to the game, are frustrated and thinking about leaving because the game is moving too far away from what is was targeted to be, and what is was for years." This explains a lot of how you feel everyone is on your side when really everyone isn't. From what I understand from this post, the OP does not want ANY cheating bosses. It seems to me that you are NOT on the harder players' side because it seems as though you want cheating bosses removed as much as Von does. You were attacking those you agree with the way the game is played now so I definitely don't think you're any where near the harder players' side.
I was not attacking those I agree with. I was defending those I agree with. I agree with Von. Cheating bosses, and long tedious dungeons, have no place in the main story line. That is also what Von has said. Go back and re-read the entire thread. She never said she wants all cheating bosses gone. She said she does not want to have to face them in the main storyline, or Have to face them at all. She wants them optional.

Both of us agree that at times, and with the right friends, and by choice going into it, these instances can be fun. We just don't want them to be a requirement to get through the main story. Look back to the first few pages of this thread.

Again, the above quote does not explain how I feel "everyone is on [my] side." It merely says clearly what I think, and summarizes what I have seen in the posts of those who, like me, are very frustrated with the harder changes to the game. Where in any of that did I say that everyone agrees with me? I did not say that. Obviously many players disagree. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no need for a conversation here, would there?

However, if you look back through the posts, you will see several other posts from those who do feel the same way I do. Not everyone feels this way -- but many do. And, according to the published demographics of KI, those that do want a casual family game are the stated target audience of the game.

As far as Errol's suggestion about people going to do Tartarus instead of posting on the boards: Again, this is an utterly ridiculous suggestion, that completely fails to understand the frustration of those of us who want a casual game. Why would anyone who is wanting a casual game want to go do one of the hardest dungeons over and over and over again in the thin chance of getting drops? That behavior is totally counter-productive to my goal.

If I want to have a return to casual family gameplay and get cheating bosses out of the main story line, the right action is to voice my opinion, clearly, so that the opinion is heard by KI and the Wizard101 community.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
seethe42 on Apr 24, 2014 wrote:
Boss cheats are a puzzle to solve. They tell you the rules, usually in the form of a cryptic statement. The battle system isn't broken, but without shaking things up at a handful of pivotal battles, it really would become a tedious job of just blade, blade, trap, hit. Without additional challenges, ie rule changers or cheats, the game would have become extremely boring a long time ago. Would you really find it any sort of challenge if they just made the main bosses have a little more health?

Without their unique spells and triggers there would be no challenge. If you want to remove all cheats, shouldn't we also remove all the player cheats too? Your healing pet, may cast shields/traps/blades/auras, pet boosts, gear boosts... Creatures in the game don't have use of any of those things. They don't have use of Sun School enchants or Treasure Cards either. If you are so dead set against changes in rules, why support players having all those advantages over the creatures in the game?
I guess I have further thoughts for you on your post... specifically this:

Boss cheats are a puzzle to solve.

I have specifically heard you tell people a number of times to look up the cheating boss on fan sites before you head into battle so that you can have your deck configured correctly to win. In fact, you have mentioned that this is what you personally do as well though perhaps not specifically in this thread. If that is the solution to the puzzle, then how is that a challenge or even fun for you personally? You are talking about it being "challenging" on the one hand, then telling people to use a per-prepared guide for beating it on the other. In my opinion, having someone else solve my puzzles for me is far more tedious than "blade, blade, trap, hit".

I am certainly able to figure out the cheat on my own and hopefully, I'm prepared enough when I walk in... there certainly isn't a guarantee that I'll be notified of imminent cheating anymore. However, the bigger issue is menu chats. How am I supposed to help young players with only menu chat navigate these cheating bosses? Does anyone posting here play with menu chats? If you do, do you ever help them in cheat dungeons? Given just how many menu chats I see running around, I seriously have to question the idea of cheating bosses as it applies to the main storyline.

I completely stand by my previous response... if it can't be challenging without cheating then it is broken.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4120
gtarhannon on Apr 25, 2014 wrote:
Do you PvP? Do you find it challenging? If so, then why? There are no system cheats there. What is stopping bosses from utilizing spells that they don't currently utilize rather than making system cheats?

If you feel this way:

The battle system isn't broken, but without shaking things up at a handful of pivotal battles, it really would become a tedious job of just blade, blade, trap, hit.

Then I'm sorry... I just don't understand why you still play the game at all. Chess is essentially the same thing over and over and over. I don't really get tired of chess. Are you saying that I should unless I arbitrarily change the rules with a cryptic message "puzzle"? I enjoy the challenge and strategy of the actual game. Changing the rules makes it a different game.

In regard to this:

If you want to remove all cheats, shouldn't we also remove all the player cheats too? Your healing pet, may cast shields/traps/blades/auras, pet boosts, gear boosts...

I do not now, nor have I ever, liked any maycast talents. I'm certain I have a few pets that have them but it isn't intentional and it annoys me. I would breed them out if the pet system wasn't so tedious and annoying. I don't understand why any advanced player would use them, except that we have now established that "cheats" are part of the main game and therefore ok. You will not find me defending, advocating, or supporting these sorts of things. I see many things that have been done on pets as a direct source of much school animosity because it provides the avenue for things like ice immunity. Having said all that, if you recognize that not every player is advanced (nor expected to be in the core audience) then having your pet help you is valid when you are always playing at a 2 on 1 (or worse) disadvantage.

With this:

They don't have use of Sun School enchants or Treasure Cards either. If you are so dead set against changes in rules, why support players having all those advantages over the creatures in the game?

You seem to be jumping to conclusions. I think we should give bosses access to sun school enchants or the odd treasure card. I would be MUCH happier with bosses that acted more like players than the current system of using cheats. So, suggest we use the existing system to gin up the actual bosses rather than put cheats in the mainline quests. Have them heal, have them cast globals, lets make it a challenge within the rules and save cheats for optional quests/worlds. If it can't be a challenge within the rules then I submit to you that the rules are broken.
No I don't really like PvP. PvP isn't the same as playing against AI though. As for there being no cheats in PvP, I would again say that pet healing is really no different than boss cheats. It's a free cast spell that is triggered by something, just like boss cheats.

This isn't chess or even remotely comparable in any way. Playing at a 2v1 "disadvantage"? Seriously? Players have all the advantage in every battle. We can change our resist, we can change our spells, we have prisms, we have massively higher pierce available, we all have healing ability, we all have multiple blades and traps and spears, we all have ability to boost attack gear... Players are definitely not at any disadvantage just because we face an extra enemy.

I agree if the AI were much more advanced and able to use all the player advantages, then it could be a challenge within the rules. I don't see that happening so until then, adding challenge in the form of changes is needed. It cannot be a challenge within the rules as they exist because players have been given so many advantages.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 25, 2014 wrote:
I was not attacking those I agree with. I was defending those I agree with. I agree with Von. Cheating bosses, and long tedious dungeons, have no place in the main story line. That is also what Von has said. Go back and re-read the entire thread. She never said she wants all cheating bosses gone. She said she does not want to have to face them in the main storyline, or Have to face them at all. She wants them optional.

Both of us agree that at times, and with the right friends, and by choice going into it, these instances can be fun. We just don't want them to be a requirement to get through the main story. Look back to the first few pages of this thread.

Again, the above quote does not explain how I feel "everyone is on [my] side." It merely says clearly what I think, and summarizes what I have seen in the posts of those who, like me, are very frustrated with the harder changes to the game. Where in any of that did I say that everyone agrees with me? I did not say that. Obviously many players disagree. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no need for a conversation here, would there?

However, if you look back through the posts, you will see several other posts from those who do feel the same way I do. Not everyone feels this way -- but many do. And, according to the published demographics of KI, those that do want a casual family game are the stated target audience of the game.

As far as Errol's suggestion about people going to do Tartarus instead of posting on the boards: Again, this is an utterly ridiculous suggestion, that completely fails to understand the frustration of those of us who want a casual game. Why would anyone who is wanting a casual game want to go do one of the hardest dungeons over and over and over again in the thin chance of getting drops? That behavior is totally counter-productive to my goal.

If I want to have a return to casual family gameplay and get cheating bosses out of the main story line, the right action is to voice my opinion, clearly, so that the opinion is heard by KI and the Wizard101 community.
Of course you weren't attacking those you agree with but those who did not agree with you, you did. In the quote you did not say everyone was on your side, but it definitely seemed as though you thought that. Like you and Von suggested, you guys want the cheating bosses and hard dungeons to be a side quest but that is exactly what tartarus is and yet she constantly complains about it and you agree and defend her about it. So, make up your mind, do you want cheating bosses to be optional and possibly satisfy everyone. Or are you going against what you just suggested and want all cheating bosses removed?

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
seethe42 on Apr 25, 2014 wrote:
No I don't really like PvP. PvP isn't the same as playing against AI though. As for there being no cheats in PvP, I would again say that pet healing is really no different than boss cheats. It's a free cast spell that is triggered by something, just like boss cheats.

This isn't chess or even remotely comparable in any way. Playing at a 2v1 "disadvantage"? Seriously? Players have all the advantage in every battle. We can change our resist, we can change our spells, we have prisms, we have massively higher pierce available, we all have healing ability, we all have multiple blades and traps and spears, we all have ability to boost attack gear... Players are definitely not at any disadvantage just because we face an extra enemy.

I agree if the AI were much more advanced and able to use all the player advantages, then it could be a challenge within the rules. I don't see that happening so until then, adding challenge in the form of changes is needed. It cannot be a challenge within the rules as they exist because players have been given so many advantages.
At this point, I really can't tell if you're being purposely obtuse or are just argumentative by nature (not that I'm judging because I am clearly the latter). The point about chess is that it is incredibly redundant with not so much as a single element of chance. The point about redundancy is a direct response to your claims that this game is boring and redundant without cheats. All games have an element of redundancy. From coming across your posts in many threads, I gather that you are the kind of player that tends to collect the very best gear, tailor's the deck for the battle, and checks in with the fan pages for heads up on cheats. Is it safe to assume that you also have a perfect pet?

In my opinion that is the most boring and tedious way to play and it would certainly explain why you want cheat bosses. Obtaining the best gear and a perfect pet are often two of the most annoying and time consuming processes in the game. Unless you are getting them to compete in PvP, all you get for your trouble is the boredom of being over powered. I have to ask, do you have family you play this game with? If so, how old are they? While I don't personally find anything in this game exceptionally challenging and insurmountable, lots of kids do. I don't like the idea of denying them the closure of completing the story line merely because I'm better at the game than they are.

You are shrugging off a very complicated set of variables which are required to surmount obstacles in this game. Understanding the math behind resist, pierce, and critical might come easy for you and I, but if you read these forums for more than 2 minutes you'll see that it doesn't for the majority. Given that many kids have time constraints on play, do you really think its feasible to ask them to waste hours doing pet training and farming? I can't understand why anyone is so dead set against merely putting cheating bosses in optional quest lines. It seems completely reasonable to me. If you agree that there could be challenging bosses within the rules, then join me in advocating for it because again, no one in this thread is asking for cheating to be removed, just placed into optional quests. KI is a business. They will tailor their product to meet demand.

You should also check my after thought post in this thread regarding menu chats.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
stormninja542 on Apr 26, 2014 wrote:
Of course you weren't attacking those you agree with but those who did not agree with you, you did. In the quote you did not say everyone was on your side, but it definitely seemed as though you thought that. Like you and Von suggested, you guys want the cheating bosses and hard dungeons to be a side quest but that is exactly what tartarus is and yet she constantly complains about it and you agree and defend her about it. So, make up your mind, do you want cheating bosses to be optional and possibly satisfy everyone. Or are you going against what you just suggested and want all cheating bosses removed?
Von was not complaining about Tartarus. Neither was I. Von was complaining about the cheating bosses in the main storyline. I quote from her opening post: "Cheating bosses should not be, and should never have been, required for the main storyline."

You completely made up the part about us wanting all cheating bosses gone. Neither of us ever said that.
To emphasize this point, please go back and read my post on march 11, and Von's response on march 12. We are talking there about how at times those optional hard side dungeons can be fun -- when they are optional, and side events.

You also made up the part about me saying everyone was on my side. I never said that either. That was purely your interpretation, and nothing I ever said or intended to say.

Errol was the one who brought up Tartarus. That is why I criticized him. He was bringing up a point that was irrelevant to the OP, and doing it as a way to insult Von. You are continuing to bring up that point, and to accuse both Von and myself of arguing for something that we never said.

Again, the OP was: "Cheating bosses should not be, and should never have been, required for the main storyline." "main storyline." Those are the operative words.

There is plenty of room in the Spiral for long hard dungeons, cheating bosses, and so forth. They just don't belong in the main storyline. The main storyline should be accessible and fun for players of all ages and all skill levels, from young children and casual gaming newbies on up. The harder instances are great -- as side quests and optional areas.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 26, 2014 wrote:
Von was not complaining about Tartarus. Neither was I. Von was complaining about the cheating bosses in the main storyline. I quote from her opening post: "Cheating bosses should not be, and should never have been, required for the main storyline."

You completely made up the part about us wanting all cheating bosses gone. Neither of us ever said that.
To emphasize this point, please go back and read my post on march 11, and Von's response on march 12. We are talking there about how at times those optional hard side dungeons can be fun -- when they are optional, and side events.

You also made up the part about me saying everyone was on my side. I never said that either. That was purely your interpretation, and nothing I ever said or intended to say.

Errol was the one who brought up Tartarus. That is why I criticized him. He was bringing up a point that was irrelevant to the OP, and doing it as a way to insult Von. You are continuing to bring up that point, and to accuse both Von and myself of arguing for something that we never said.

Again, the OP was: "Cheating bosses should not be, and should never have been, required for the main storyline." "main storyline." Those are the operative words.

There is plenty of room in the Spiral for long hard dungeons, cheating bosses, and so forth. They just don't belong in the main storyline. The main storyline should be accessible and fun for players of all ages and all skill levels, from young children and casual gaming newbies on up. The harder instances are great -- as side quests and optional areas.
If you actually read more topics than this one you would rethink telling me Von does not constantly complain about tartarus. I did not make up the part about you guys wanting all cheating bosses removed. I thought you did since you defended Von on the topic of tartarus, an optional dungeon, and how she complained there were too many cheating bosses etc etc. If you don't want me to assume that you were on Von's side about tartarus and you thought everyone was on your side then don't make it seem that way. Bringing tartarus was totally relevant because apparently Von wants ALL cheating bosses removed if she complains about an OPTIONAL dungeon. I know what the topic is, the problem is Von is going against her own topic and you agree with her probably because you have no idea how many times Von has complained about tartarus. I don't believe Von truly wants all cheating bosses removed from only the main storyline, but from any dungeon that she wants to do. I don't have a problem with making cheating bosses a side quest but I do have a problem with someone going against their word.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
stormninja542 on Apr 27, 2014 wrote:
If you actually read more topics than this one you would rethink telling me Von does not constantly complain about tartarus. I did not make up the part about you guys wanting all cheating bosses removed. I thought you did since you defended Von on the topic of tartarus, an optional dungeon, and how she complained there were too many cheating bosses etc etc. If you don't want me to assume that you were on Von's side about tartarus and you thought everyone was on your side then don't make it seem that way. Bringing tartarus was totally relevant because apparently Von wants ALL cheating bosses removed if she complains about an OPTIONAL dungeon. I know what the topic is, the problem is Von is going against her own topic and you agree with her probably because you have no idea how many times Von has complained about tartarus. I don't believe Von truly wants all cheating bosses removed from only the main storyline, but from any dungeon that she wants to do. I don't have a problem with making cheating bosses a side quest but I do have a problem with someone going against their word.
Enough of this.

Again, read the posts. I have supplied evidence-- you have given unsubstantiated accusations, based on a misunderstanding of what you read. You say, "I don't believe Von truly wants all cheating bosses removed from only the main storyline, but from any dungeon that she wants to do." But that is only what you believe, and is not what Von and I have said. You are reading your own interpretation into this.

If you actually stuck to the topic at hand and were responding to what we actually said, you would not be falsely accusing me of saying things I never said. Moreover I do read a lot more topics than this one. You will actually find Von and I have had similar exchanges in other posts.

Please stop putting words and feelings into other people's mouths and then reacting to them as if they were true. Please stop attacking my posts based on a misunderstanding, and trying to cast me as someone who is not true to his word. I have consistently stated what I have said here, and have said the same message over and over again for years now.

I understand you can feel strongly about having cheating bosses still in the game, and that you enjoy harder dungeons and fights. That is reasonable and fair. It is even reasonable and fair to say you disagree with me, and that you like the cheating bosses in the main story line. Many others have said just that. I respect that. I strongly disagree with it, but I respect it.

But it is totally uncalled for, to continue mischaracterizing me and what I am saying. You can state your own view, without having to misconstrue and malign my view and my character. So please, stop this personal attack.

Survivor
Sep 08, 2009
8
Hi Dr. Von;

I think you might want to refer to the community on wizard101central.com for your guidance. There are far more better answers there than you will find here. Take care and good luck. I'm with you on this.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4120
gtarhannon on Apr 25, 2014 wrote:
I guess I have further thoughts for you on your post... specifically this:

Boss cheats are a puzzle to solve.

I have specifically heard you tell people a number of times to look up the cheating boss on fan sites before you head into battle so that you can have your deck configured correctly to win. In fact, you have mentioned that this is what you personally do as well though perhaps not specifically in this thread. If that is the solution to the puzzle, then how is that a challenge or even fun for you personally? You are talking about it being "challenging" on the one hand, then telling people to use a per-prepared guide for beating it on the other. In my opinion, having someone else solve my puzzles for me is far more tedious than "blade, blade, trap, hit".

I am certainly able to figure out the cheat on my own and hopefully, I'm prepared enough when I walk in... there certainly isn't a guarantee that I'll be notified of imminent cheating anymore. However, the bigger issue is menu chats. How am I supposed to help young players with only menu chat navigate these cheating bosses? Does anyone posting here play with menu chats? If you do, do you ever help them in cheat dungeons? Given just how many menu chats I see running around, I seriously have to question the idea of cheating bosses as it applies to the main storyline.

I completely stand by my previous response... if it can't be challenging without cheating then it is broken.
Yes Boss cheats ARE a puzzle. I personally am one of those players who post the lists of cheats. Do I look them up? Yes because with as many as I have done it's impossible to remember every single instance by name. I don't see how reminding myself what the cheats are and preparing for them has anything to do with being challenging. Knowing the cheat rules does NOT provide the solution any more than knowing the rules of Chess insures a victory. I never said anything about guides, I said look up the cheats. You make a leap way too far in your logic.

As for menu chats, I really have had no real issues with them in cheat dungeons in ages. I run Tartaruswith them all the time and if they are doing the higher level dungeons the mostly know what they are doing. I don't really see that issue as pertinent to this.

As to my problem equating this game or even comparing it to chess. I stand by that 100%. Chess is a strategy game, this is NOT. Chess does not involve random chance at all. This is a roll-based luck game with very little strategy element, it's much more tactical than strategic. This game is also BASED on rule breakers. It's magic. There are spells in every school that are purposeful utility spells MEANT to change the basic rules. Using beguile to force oppenents to attack their friends, stuns, dispels, mana burn, stealing blades/shields, shifting heals or damage, destroying auras, piercing... the list goes on and on. Utility spells are by their very nature rule changers.

Lastly, my children play the game too. They are early teens. I really don't see what this thread has anything to do with training pets, gardening or farming. Though I do think the kids enjoy that more than I do. I do it as a practical matter. If you think that having good gear and pets makes it boring, then don't do it. Again farming for optional gear isn't a subject of this thread either. Neither perfect pets nor farmed optional gear is necessary for completing any cheating boss. As for your assumption about how I play the game, it's pretty far off. I have pretty much 2 deck setups. 1 for solo and 1 for teams. The only time I really change my deck for specific battles is for a dungeon like Tartarus. I'm soloing through part 2 right now with a couple each of blades, feints potent, sharp, frog, colossal, heals and I keep 1 pig and shrike for the occasional boss that frog doesn't kill. For mobs I don't change gear, for bosses of course I dress my best for that battle. Why wouldn't I?

Historian
May 15, 2009
673
you know I have been giving this a lot of thought since I last post here and I think I want to clarify myself better. Before I believed that cheating bosses were a nuisance and I honestly just wanted them to g away, but I think when I wrote that I was still a bit bitter over the fact i'd farmed hades so many times and had not once ever gotten a piece of his gear until recently when I acquired his staff and I realize that I really judged cheating bosses too harshly.

1. I believe that cheating bosses should be both optional and mandatory.

I know that there are a lot of casual gamers out there like you dr. von. Heck I consider myself very causal, I can't even stand to go back to the arena anymore because it's almost entirely focused on players who like playing with a more hardcore type of attitude. However I do believe that for a majority of the time, cheating bosses should remain exclusively as optional content. It gives players who enjoy the more intensive content something to do and I fully support the continuation of putting optional bosses that cheat into the game.

However! I also believe that occasionally there should be cheating bosses in the main story content as well and allow me to explain. I know that a lot of people really like the casual style the early game had, it is enjoyable and can help bring families together when they quests through the worlds as a group. I do think that on occasion we should have something to keep us on our toes. for me I have an easy enough time soloing content, most of the time it is only when I run into a 4v1 fight that I require a little assistance, so a cheating boss is a sort of welcome challenge to me. I can understand not wanting every other fight to have a cheater, but I think that occasionally we questers need to have a boss that cheats placed in there now and again along the road. places like this would be like the eclipse tower or the end of fort rachias. someone extremely powerful testing us to our very limits.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
seethe42 on Apr 28, 2014 wrote:
Yes Boss cheats ARE a puzzle. I personally am one of those players who post the lists of cheats. Do I look them up? Yes because with as many as I have done it's impossible to remember every single instance by name. I don't see how reminding myself what the cheats are and preparing for them has anything to do with being challenging. Knowing the cheat rules does NOT provide the solution any more than knowing the rules of Chess insures a victory. I never said anything about guides, I said look up the cheats. You make a leap way too far in your logic.

As for menu chats, I really have had no real issues with them in cheat dungeons in ages. I run Tartaruswith them all the time and if they are doing the higher level dungeons the mostly know what they are doing. I don't really see that issue as pertinent to this.

As to my problem equating this game or even comparing it to chess. I stand by that 100%. Chess is a strategy game, this is NOT. Chess does not involve random chance at all. This is a roll-based luck game with very little strategy element, it's much more tactical than strategic. This game is also BASED on rule breakers. It's magic. There are spells in every school that are purposeful utility spells MEANT to change the basic rules. Using beguile to force oppenents to attack their friends, stuns, dispels, mana burn, stealing blades/shields, shifting heals or damage, destroying auras, piercing... the list goes on and on. Utility spells are by their very nature rule changers.

Lastly, my children play the game too. They are early teens. I really don't see what this thread has anything to do with training pets, gardening or farming. Though I do think the kids enjoy that more than I do. I do it as a practical matter. If you think that having good gear and pets makes it boring, then don't do it. Again farming for optional gear isn't a subject of this thread either. Neither perfect pets nor farmed optional gear is necessary for completing any cheating boss. As for your assumption about how I play the game, it's pretty far off. I have pretty much 2 deck setups. 1 for solo and 1 for teams. The only time I really change my deck for specific battles is for a dungeon like Tartarus. I'm soloing through part 2 right now with a couple each of blades, feints potent, sharp, frog, colossal, heals and I keep 1 pig and shrike for the occasional boss that frog doesn't kill. For mobs I don't change gear, for bosses of course I dress my best for that battle. Why wouldn't I?
Ok, so let me see if I have this straight:

  • the point about redundancy not being a sufficient reason to change the rules doesn't count because I used chess as a comparison
  • cheats are equivalent to any utility spell because utility spells are in fact rule changers though they don't auto-cast in response to preset conditions
  • the implications of top of the line gear and pets used to make the game easy when the game being too easy is the whole reason cheats are necessary is irrelevant to the conversation.

Since you've never had problems helping menu chats with cheating bosses I'm assuming you're saying that its also not a problem then? Based on the intelligence I see behind most of your posts, I have to lean toward purposely obtuse at this point.

Crowns players only get 30 days of post time from the date of last purchase and since I am almost there, I can't really see much point in continuing this debate with you anymore. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do appreciate the chat as it was interesting and I believe I have mostly come to understand your point of view. I just wish that you seemed a little more interested in trying to see other views as well. I still don't understand why you feel it is imperative that cheats be in the main quest line rather than keeping them confined to optional quests. I suppose we don't have much hope for seeing eye to eye on this one.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 27, 2014 wrote:
Enough of this.

Again, read the posts. I have supplied evidence-- you have given unsubstantiated accusations, based on a misunderstanding of what you read. You say, "I don't believe Von truly wants all cheating bosses removed from only the main storyline, but from any dungeon that she wants to do." But that is only what you believe, and is not what Von and I have said. You are reading your own interpretation into this.

If you actually stuck to the topic at hand and were responding to what we actually said, you would not be falsely accusing me of saying things I never said. Moreover I do read a lot more topics than this one. You will actually find Von and I have had similar exchanges in other posts.

Please stop putting words and feelings into other people's mouths and then reacting to them as if they were true. Please stop attacking my posts based on a misunderstanding, and trying to cast me as someone who is not true to his word. I have consistently stated what I have said here, and have said the same message over and over again for years now.

I understand you can feel strongly about having cheating bosses still in the game, and that you enjoy harder dungeons and fights. That is reasonable and fair. It is even reasonable and fair to say you disagree with me, and that you like the cheating bosses in the main story line. Many others have said just that. I respect that. I strongly disagree with it, but I respect it.

But it is totally uncalled for, to continue mischaracterizing me and what I am saying. You can state your own view, without having to misconstrue and malign my view and my character. So please, stop this personal attack.
Ok fine then, if you're too lazy to read the other posts then don't. I would be fine with this idea of cheating bosses only being optional if that goes for ALL optional dungeons including Tartarus (but you would have no idea why I specifically mentioned Tartarus because you barely read any other posts related to this that Von commented on). I am not personally attacking you. If you're so "offended" then tell my why you are. Is it because I disagree with you or is it because I disagree that Von wants all cheating bosses optional? Either one aren't personal attacks. The reason why I KNOW Von does not want all cheating bosses to be optional is because she has complained about Tartarus, an optional dungeon, countless times and how it should not have cheats. And here, in this post you defend her when Errol brought up Tartarus and how Von complained about it constantly. The only problem with Tartarus is the low drop rate, not its cheats.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
stormninja542 on Apr 28, 2014 wrote:
Ok fine then, if you're too lazy to read the other posts then don't. I would be fine with this idea of cheating bosses only being optional if that goes for ALL optional dungeons including Tartarus (but you would have no idea why I specifically mentioned Tartarus because you barely read any other posts related to this that Von commented on). I am not personally attacking you. If you're so "offended" then tell my why you are. Is it because I disagree with you or is it because I disagree that Von wants all cheating bosses optional? Either one aren't personal attacks. The reason why I KNOW Von does not want all cheating bosses to be optional is because she has complained about Tartarus, an optional dungeon, countless times and how it should not have cheats. And here, in this post you defend her when Errol brought up Tartarus and how Von complained about it constantly. The only problem with Tartarus is the low drop rate, not its cheats.
And again you make the insult and the accusation both of me and of Von without giving anything but your own assertion. Even where there are clear quotes, you just ignore these and continue to make claims and accusations that have no basis in reality.

What I am offended by is you refusing to hear or to respect what we have said, and then furthermore insulting me by calling me both lazy and false. You call me lazy, but you are the one who has not given any actual evidence for your claims. I have not insulted you, nor accused you of saying things you did not say, nor called you someone who is not true to their word. You have done all these things to me and to Von. Those are personal attacks; they are not discussions of what is actually in the posts.

(BTW, in the posts of Von's that I have read regarding Tartarus, she does not say it should not have cheating bosses, but complains about it having low drops and not being worth the time you put into it. She calls it "torturuous." And she has run it many, many times. How about you actually go and look at the boards and the topics there yourself? -- e.g. Wizard City, Unfairness with the Drops in Tartarus March 14. As I said, in other areas Von and I have had similar conversations. We have both been more active in the boards than you have, judging by the board rankings. )

So again, my request of you is this: Please stop making personal attacks. Stop calling people lazy, or untruthful, or any other names. Stop hijacking this thread, and trying to claim that the truth of the OP is not in what she says, but in what you (mis)interpreted from this and other threads. Keep your comments to stating what you think, and stop trying to state what you imagine other people think. Moreover, it would be nice if you were actually mature enough to admit the mistake and apologize.

Astrologist
Oct 22, 2011
1077
Sorry Storm, you have been outgunned in this thread. Please be sure to keep the discussion on topic, instead of going on your own rant regarding made-up assumptions that you have misinterpreted in reading these posts, plus the other threads you are bringing into this discussion.

The fact is: Von mentions not having cheating bosses in the main storyline. In this thread, the only reason Tartarus was brought up, was because of Errol, who has been trolling her posts for quite a while, making inane and disparaging posts that have nothing to do with anything constructive or even on-topic at times.

Von has also mentioned many times about the lack of drops in Aquila, specifically the side bosses and Tartarus (Von calls it Torturous, I call it Tartar Sauce). Why do I know this? Because I have farmed several dozen times WITH Von in these dungeons, and neither one of us have received any decent gear drops (athame, ring, Hades gear). Now, that was farming together, but each of us has farmed these dungeons separately in an untold number of times.

Aquila is optional, which is why she has not brought it up in this thread. It does not apply to the topic. What she is discussing is the cheating bosses in the main storyline. So, please take some time and reread what she and others have written in regards to the actual topic, and not make any more assumptions nor misinterpretations of what is clearly written in black and white.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 29, 2014 wrote:
And again you make the insult and the accusation both of me and of Von without giving anything but your own assertion. Even where there are clear quotes, you just ignore these and continue to make claims and accusations that have no basis in reality.

What I am offended by is you refusing to hear or to respect what we have said, and then furthermore insulting me by calling me both lazy and false. You call me lazy, but you are the one who has not given any actual evidence for your claims. I have not insulted you, nor accused you of saying things you did not say, nor called you someone who is not true to their word. You have done all these things to me and to Von. Those are personal attacks; they are not discussions of what is actually in the posts.

(BTW, in the posts of Von's that I have read regarding Tartarus, she does not say it should not have cheating bosses, but complains about it having low drops and not being worth the time you put into it. She calls it "torturuous." And she has run it many, many times. How about you actually go and look at the boards and the topics there yourself? -- e.g. Wizard City, Unfairness with the Drops in Tartarus March 14. As I said, in other areas Von and I have had similar conversations. We have both been more active in the boards than you have, judging by the board rankings. )

So again, my request of you is this: Please stop making personal attacks. Stop calling people lazy, or untruthful, or any other names. Stop hijacking this thread, and trying to claim that the truth of the OP is not in what she says, but in what you (mis)interpreted from this and other threads. Keep your comments to stating what you think, and stop trying to state what you imagine other people think. Moreover, it would be nice if you were actually mature enough to admit the mistake and apologize.
You say I refuse to listen to what you have to say. You obviously aren't reading my entire post because if you did you would know I DO agree with cheating bosses being optional but for ALL optional dungeons. I called you lazy because you refused to read what other posts Von had about Tartarus and if you still refuse to read them just because the truth hurts then it's laziness. Ok so you claim you actually have been reading Von's post, and if it's true you must of overlooked the time that she says hades is too hard or he should not have cheats about 15 times. Don't take it personally, laziness can always be fixed and if you are willing to admit that you were (or you were purposely overlooking Von's statements) then I might apologize for hurting your feelings.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
stormninja542 on Apr 29, 2014 wrote:
You say I refuse to listen to what you have to say. You obviously aren't reading my entire post because if you did you would know I DO agree with cheating bosses being optional but for ALL optional dungeons. I called you lazy because you refused to read what other posts Von had about Tartarus and if you still refuse to read them just because the truth hurts then it's laziness. Ok so you claim you actually have been reading Von's post, and if it's true you must of overlooked the time that she says hades is too hard or he should not have cheats about 15 times. Don't take it personally, laziness can always be fixed and if you are willing to admit that you were (or you were purposely overlooking Von's statements) then I might apologize for hurting your feelings.
And you have just proven that not only are you not reading or respecting anything that I or Von or several others have said, but are also downright immature and inconsiderate.

You really need to take your own advice -- you are obviously just talking to yourself anyway. You never bothered once to go and find a shred of evidence to support your claims, not a single post. Of course, the reason for that is, there is no evidence to support your claims, you made it all up. So here is what you said, right back at you: "Don't take it personally, laziness can always be fixed and if you are willing to admit that you were (or you were purposely overlooking Von's statements) then I might apologize for hurting your feelings."

This has gone on too long already. I have nothing more to say to you.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
BrynnerOfReign on Apr 29, 2014 wrote:
Sorry Storm, you have been outgunned in this thread. Please be sure to keep the discussion on topic, instead of going on your own rant regarding made-up assumptions that you have misinterpreted in reading these posts, plus the other threads you are bringing into this discussion.

The fact is: Von mentions not having cheating bosses in the main storyline. In this thread, the only reason Tartarus was brought up, was because of Errol, who has been trolling her posts for quite a while, making inane and disparaging posts that have nothing to do with anything constructive or even on-topic at times.

Von has also mentioned many times about the lack of drops in Aquila, specifically the side bosses and Tartarus (Von calls it Torturous, I call it Tartar Sauce). Why do I know this? Because I have farmed several dozen times WITH Von in these dungeons, and neither one of us have received any decent gear drops (athame, ring, Hades gear). Now, that was farming together, but each of us has farmed these dungeons separately in an untold number of times.

Aquila is optional, which is why she has not brought it up in this thread. It does not apply to the topic. What she is discussing is the cheating bosses in the main storyline. So, please take some time and reread what she and others have written in regards to the actual topic, and not make any more assumptions nor misinterpretations of what is clearly written in black and white.
thank you!

Historian
May 15, 2009
673
stormninja542 on Apr 29, 2014 wrote:
You say I refuse to listen to what you have to say. You obviously aren't reading my entire post because if you did you would know I DO agree with cheating bosses being optional but for ALL optional dungeons. I called you lazy because you refused to read what other posts Von had about Tartarus and if you still refuse to read them just because the truth hurts then it's laziness. Ok so you claim you actually have been reading Von's post, and if it's true you must of overlooked the time that she says hades is too hard or he should not have cheats about 15 times. Don't take it personally, laziness can always be fixed and if you are willing to admit that you were (or you were purposely overlooking Von's statements) then I might apologize for hurting your feelings.
storm ninja that is really the pot calling the kettle black. you are making accusations towards Finn are things you have more than proven you are guilty of. I honestly don't know why any KI employee hasn't revoked your posting rights because it's clear your posts are flaming finn and von.

defamation of character and slander is illegal you know and it's against the rules here in wizard101, so please just stop before you get yourself in trouble

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4120
Back to topic people! This isn't about Von or anyone else. Von never said remove the cheats from Tartarus, just complained about low drop rates. While I might disagree with her on that and other issues, it's not true that she called for removing the cheats there. This topic is about whether cheats should exist in the storyline, can we try to stay on that topic?

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
seethe42 on Apr 30, 2014 wrote:
Back to topic people! This isn't about Von or anyone else. Von never said remove the cheats from Tartarus, just complained about low drop rates. While I might disagree with her on that and other issues, it's not true that she called for removing the cheats there. This topic is about whether cheats should exist in the storyline, can we try to stay on that topic?
Thank you Seethe! And I apologize for staying sidetracked so long!

Survivor
Mar 22, 2009
10
Although I have never fought the boss you are speaking of,
I'm pretty done with reading complaints from storm school users.

So I will help you, even though storm has it all, it's an easy school.

Anyways, try doing what pvp "Warlords" that are storm do, spam low rank spells then finish with a high rank spell...

Or try and level until you have shadow school, it's all in using your resources. I'm very disappointed in KI for making shadow school, because it's all people use now and say that they're pro, but I'll admit it's helpful for KS.

Or try minions like someone else said on this forum. Use the resources. You'll be okay.

Survivor
Dec 11, 2010
35
omg I have only got to end of page two and now annoyed von you are so right we should be warned of cheating bosses after playing for nearly four years now and yes my first wizard was storm it is ridiculous (yeah I know its spelt wrong) my storm has to solo cause of my time zone we have the lowest health and since the pet debarcle my pet wont heal as often as before and yes I do know about all the bosses my death has already gone through and my fire in the hive but they both have the health to just get there but storm and am finding no one now wants to quest with a storm cause supposedly we are to strong well bull we die just as easy as the next guy and whats worse we die faster we have to pack more heals so lose our pips so we don't die but I degress people who farm hades need the gear ie storm we need the stats to survive also to survive is the amulets to give help ie health if we can get the life one
and with so many cheating bosses we need all the help we can get especially if we have to solo
because of no one being around at the time team up does not work if you are in different time zones and no one is on so what we just say no and switch off the game leave von and finnAgain alone what they are trying to do is offer their opinions which after all this time is usually some really good advice

Survivor
Dec 11, 2010
35
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 26, 2014 wrote:
Von was not complaining about Tartarus. Neither was I. Von was complaining about the cheating bosses in the main storyline. I quote from her opening post: "Cheating bosses should not be, and should never have been, required for the main storyline."

You completely made up the part about us wanting all cheating bosses gone. Neither of us ever said that.
To emphasize this point, please go back and read my post on march 11, and Von's response on march 12. We are talking there about how at times those optional hard side dungeons can be fun -- when they are optional, and side events.

You also made up the part about me saying everyone was on my side. I never said that either. That was purely your interpretation, and nothing I ever said or intended to say.

Errol was the one who brought up Tartarus. That is why I criticized him. He was bringing up a point that was irrelevant to the OP, and doing it as a way to insult Von. You are continuing to bring up that point, and to accuse both Von and myself of arguing for something that we never said.

Again, the OP was: "Cheating bosses should not be, and should never have been, required for the main storyline." "main storyline." Those are the operative words.

There is plenty of room in the Spiral for long hard dungeons, cheating bosses, and so forth. They just don't belong in the main storyline. The main storyline should be accessible and fun for players of all ages and all skill levels, from young children and casual gaming newbies on up. The harder instances are great -- as side quests and optional areas.
darn well said and completely agree with this this game is for all ages not hardcore cheating bosses should only be optional or as side quests what was supposed to be enjoyment is now torture my relax time is now omg how am I going to pass this yes it should be harder but not cheat boss after cheat boss and second to last dungeon is just a nightmare have lost so many friends who have left since this last world it is amazing everyone did not find it enjoyable any more

Survivor
Jan 27, 2012
37
gtarhannon on Apr 24, 2014 wrote:
Just to move this topic in a slightly different direction... I see a lot of posts here talking about wanting to preserve a challenge. I think it is interesting that most of the "keep it challenging" posts in this thread equate cheating bosses to "challenge". I like a challenge as much as the next guy, but I really dislike sudden changes in the rules. Inconsistency flatly irritates me. Is the assumption (which seems to have gone largely unchallenged) here that the game must cheat to make it challenging? If there is no challenge without cheating then that suggests to me that the play system is broken. I have never personally thought of this system as broken. Therefore, it seems to me that KI could make the main quest line appropriately challenging without cheating. I am curious as to others view on this...
I absolutely agree with you. The cheating irritates me too, because of the inconsistency and the unfairness I feel. They could make the bosses have higher health, stronger minions, higher power pip percentages. Take Jotun for example. He is a hard boss to solo. If you defeat his brothers, he still has extremely high health, huge power pip percentage, and a Dragonspyre-level minion. I find him to be challenging, as I have yet to beat him. I don't think KI needs to have bosses who refuse to let you use spells, cast ridiculously strong spells, cast spells at no pip cost constantly, etc.
It can be interesting to see bosses' cheats, but it soon turns to a feeling of injustice for me, and while I know not everyone feels this way, some do, and I don't think they should be required.

Bladed Seraph