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so done with the cheating bosses.

AuthorMessage
Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
Errol Everhart on Apr 18, 2014 wrote:
I think my post was very pertinent to this discussion.

If you spent as much time farming Tartarus as you do posting messages and arguing here, you'd have your Hades gear three times over by now. Then you'd have less trouble with cheating bosses.

I'm sure there are others reading this discussion who agree with me.

So you are suggesting that someone who hates long dungeons and hard bosses goes and farms long dungeons with hard bosses so that they can then go spend more time fighting hard bosses in long dungeons in the main storyline?

Do you even have a clue how utterly absurd this suggestion is? If you like that kind of stuff, then go enjoy it. But not everyone likes it, or should have to like it, to enjoy the game as a whole.

Really, aside from being painfully arrogant, this was one of the most ridiculous and useless comments I have seen on the boards in a long time.

Adherent
Feb 07, 2011
2925
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 18, 2014 wrote:
So you are suggesting that someone who hates long dungeons and hard bosses goes and farms long dungeons with hard bosses so that they can then go spend more time fighting hard bosses in long dungeons in the main storyline?

Do you even have a clue how utterly absurd this suggestion is? If you like that kind of stuff, then go enjoy it. But not everyone likes it, or should have to like it, to enjoy the game as a whole.

Really, aside from being painfully arrogant, this was one of the most ridiculous and useless comments I have seen on the boards in a long time.
As always, Finn, you are spot-on. And I agree with Eric: any personal attacks (or lame attempts thereof) do not belong on these boards.

The purpose of the thread was, if anything, to start a discussion (and maybe vent some frustration, at the time of the initial posting); but, while everyone is entitled to an opinion and some conflict is healthy and normal, a few people decided to not only necro an old thread, but to take things out of context and start with the trolling and personal attacks. I don't care if you agree with me or not; you're allowed to disagree, but why not do it respectfully instead of picking a fight where there isn't one?

In case anyone was curious, I haven't played the game itself in almost 4 weeks. The fun is gone: I fail to see the point of putting in work that is not fairly compensated, let alone working for free... But that's just me.

-von

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
So many of you keep attacking statements of "If you don't like, you can always stop playing" yet no one seems to have a problem with "I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way." Do you really see any difference? They both say the same thing. It's not a personal attack. But when somone says they don't like the game and they are going to quit, ok. That's their choice. It does not need to be repeated ad nauseum in every post, every day, every week for months on end.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
seethe42 on Apr 20, 2014 wrote:
So many of you keep attacking statements of "If you don't like, you can always stop playing" yet no one seems to have a problem with "I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way." Do you really see any difference? They both say the same thing. It's not a personal attack. But when somone says they don't like the game and they are going to quit, ok. That's their choice. It does not need to be repeated ad nauseum in every post, every day, every week for months on end.
In the first case (telling someone else to stop playing), the speaker is telling someone else what to do, without respecting the other person's wants as valid or important. The person is not assuming personal responsibility for trying to resolve an issue, but they are trying to place everything on the person they are talking to. The speaker is making a kind of an attack -- telling someone else to go away.

In the second case, the person is expressing their own personal frustration. They are saying what their upset is. They are also assuming personal responsibility for that upset, by saying how they themselves will act if the upset is not addressed. They are not telling someone else what to do or where to go. However, in this expression of frustration, there is also a request both to KI and to the community at large that we all might come to a better solution together, so that everyone's needs can be met.

In Von's case, what I see is someone who has been very active in the game and in the boards, and who has had a lot of very helpful contributions both to players in the game and to these boards. I imagine that leaving the game would come as a real loss to her -- she has enjoyed it greatly for years. But what she has enjoyed so greatly is slowly getting twisted into something other that what she had come to enjoy. She is right to speak up about this twisted situation! She is also not alone in noticing the twist -- many of us have been upset by it.

KI does need to know that there are consequences to changing the nature of the game so much. Committed players who have been with the game for years, players who have been active contributors to the game, are frustrated and thinking about leaving because the game is moving too far away from what it was targeted to be, and what it was for years. That is information that KI should know, and that the community should know.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
seethe42 on Apr 20, 2014 wrote:
So many of you keep attacking statements of "If you don't like, you can always stop playing" yet no one seems to have a problem with "I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way." Do you really see any difference? They both say the same thing. It's not a personal attack. But when somone says they don't like the game and they are going to quit, ok. That's their choice. It does not need to be repeated ad nauseum in every post, every day, every week for months on end.
First off, I disagree with your characterization of Von's comments (at least in this thread, I can't vouch for every other post she has written). While I can see why you might take it this way, I have never seen Von say this:

"I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way."

Von isn't complaining that the game is broken. She isn't ranting that its unfair to specific schools. She is saying that it isn't what she signed on for as you get to the higher levels. Let me give you an analogy for the way I see it... Let's say Von orders a steak, medium well. Von has cut into the steak and feels that it is actually medium in the middle. She has called over the KI wait person and asked for it to be fixed.

Now, I may not agree with Von but I see her comments as valid criticism regarding her preferences as a customer. That in itself is valuable to KI even if it happens to be critical. She has very clearly articulated the items she feels are ruining the game's fun. How does "If you don't like, you can always stop playing" help anyone? More importantly, do you not see the hypocrisy of people with that sentiment taking the time to post it for opinions they don't like?

Delver
Mar 05, 2013
241
I often think that KI should have tiered difficulty levels on all of the worlds. Tier Bronze would be easy, no cheating bosses at all, limited use of the annoying Weakness etc. Sort of a Beginners Tier. Tier Silver would be more difficult, cheating bosses only on side quests and advanced towers. Tier Gold would be brutal, cheaters everywhere and the big time gamers would have their love of massive difficulty fulfilled. There would be a special set of Badge Designations for each tier so people would know who took the easy way out and who didn't. This would certainly solve a lot of the pointless mind numbing arguments about difficulty levels. You could pick which tier your Wizard played on. Once you finished all the Tier Bronze quests you would have the option to go to Tier Silver, and then Tier Gold. I'm sure it will never happen, and I'm sure there will be holes picked in this idea as soon as the post appears. It's just a thought. I really want everyone to be happy with their gaming experience here. Outside of a few minor issues I'm very happy and plan on re upping my yearly membership when it expires.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
gtarhannon on Apr 22, 2014 wrote:
First off, I disagree with your characterization of Von's comments (at least in this thread, I can't vouch for every other post she has written). While I can see why you might take it this way, I have never seen Von say this:

"I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way."

Von isn't complaining that the game is broken. She isn't ranting that its unfair to specific schools. She is saying that it isn't what she signed on for as you get to the higher levels. Let me give you an analogy for the way I see it... Let's say Von orders a steak, medium well. Von has cut into the steak and feels that it is actually medium in the middle. She has called over the KI wait person and asked for it to be fixed.

Now, I may not agree with Von but I see her comments as valid criticism regarding her preferences as a customer. That in itself is valuable to KI even if it happens to be critical. She has very clearly articulated the items she feels are ruining the game's fun. How does "If you don't like, you can always stop playing" help anyone? More importantly, do you not see the hypocrisy of people with that sentiment taking the time to post it for opinions they don't like?
First off I never characterized anyone. I made a broad statement not directed at an individual. I have no problem with valid criticism of the game, but adding the I'm quitting statement to posts in nearly every thread serves no purpose.

A small sample
Both of my subs are up in October. I sincerely doubt that I'll be renewing them. -Mar 6

(both of my subs are both up in october and, unless this changes, i will not be renewing) -Apr 2

I love this game, but I'm so sick of KI catering to the hardcore set and having to listen to said players whine that things are "too easy", when casual players are struggling. I have not been through Test yet, for fear that I will not want to play the game anymore after seeing it.
I will take one wizard through to level 100. After that, it will be on a case-by-case basis.- Apr 16

i will be taking one wizard through to level 100. anything after that will be on a case-by-case basis until my subs run out. and, since i haven't played in nearly a month, i doubt i'll be renewing. - Apr 17

In case anyone was curious, I haven't played the game itself in almost 4 weeks. The fun is gone: I fail to see the point of putting in work that is not fairly compensated, let alone working for free... But that's just me. Apr 19


You've never seen "I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way." but isn't "both of my subs are both up in october and, unless this changes, i will not be renewing" exactly the same thing?My post was not about the right to an opinion or whether I think it's valid. It's about the repeated statements over and over.

Adherent
Jul 03, 2010
2638
valdushawkflame on Apr 22, 2014 wrote:
I often think that KI should have tiered difficulty levels on all of the worlds. Tier Bronze would be easy, no cheating bosses at all, limited use of the annoying Weakness etc. Sort of a Beginners Tier. Tier Silver would be more difficult, cheating bosses only on side quests and advanced towers. Tier Gold would be brutal, cheaters everywhere and the big time gamers would have their love of massive difficulty fulfilled. There would be a special set of Badge Designations for each tier so people would know who took the easy way out and who didn't. This would certainly solve a lot of the pointless mind numbing arguments about difficulty levels. You could pick which tier your Wizard played on. Once you finished all the Tier Bronze quests you would have the option to go to Tier Silver, and then Tier Gold. I'm sure it will never happen, and I'm sure there will be holes picked in this idea as soon as the post appears. It's just a thought. I really want everyone to be happy with their gaming experience here. Outside of a few minor issues I'm very happy and plan on re upping my yearly membership when it expires.
There are many reasons why I think the tier system is really not the answer. First those with more experience in game play would probably abuse the system by running all three levels. Secondly I really don't want a badge to back up the fact that the game play has gotten away from my ability to process. Another post on this suggests giving lesser rewards to those who can't complete more difficult content to penalize me even more?

Clearly KI is just trying to please too much of an audience with game play. You can't have a family fun game that turns into a gamers game and expect everyone to be happy about it. Those of us who have supported this game and helped it grow are feeling a little betrayed by the direction the game has taken. We just need to get over it because really in the end it's all about business - one that thrives and makes money.

I personally am looking to this year as a reflection of what I really liked about the game and would prefer to leave it on a good note rather then a rage quit. I am doing more with pets, gardening and plan on crafting a few things. I haven't really quested in months and have been spending most of my game time helping others, questing in upper worlds was a grind I don't miss at all. I have decided to make my own "end of the game" point which will be end of Avalon at the most but more likely Zafaria. I plan on doing some major spring cleaning since I have several wizards I don't play any more which can be deleted. My original first wizard will be where I transfer and store anything in the game I have gotten that I want to save (mainly holiday things).

Mary

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
seethe42 on Apr 22, 2014 wrote:
First off I never characterized anyone. I made a broad statement not directed at an individual. I have no problem with valid criticism of the game, but adding the I'm quitting statement to posts in nearly every thread serves no purpose.

A small sample
Both of my subs are up in October. I sincerely doubt that I'll be renewing them. -Mar 6

(both of my subs are both up in october and, unless this changes, i will not be renewing) -Apr 2

I love this game, but I'm so sick of KI catering to the hardcore set and having to listen to said players whine that things are "too easy", when casual players are struggling. I have not been through Test yet, for fear that I will not want to play the game anymore after seeing it.
I will take one wizard through to level 100. After that, it will be on a case-by-case basis.- Apr 16

i will be taking one wizard through to level 100. anything after that will be on a case-by-case basis until my subs run out. and, since i haven't played in nearly a month, i doubt i'll be renewing. - Apr 17

In case anyone was curious, I haven't played the game itself in almost 4 weeks. The fun is gone: I fail to see the point of putting in work that is not fairly compensated, let alone working for free... But that's just me. Apr 19


You've never seen "I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way." but isn't "both of my subs are both up in october and, unless this changes, i will not be renewing" exactly the same thing?My post was not about the right to an opinion or whether I think it's valid. It's about the repeated statements over and over.
She has as much right to express her feelings about the game as you do Seethe. People could also go through your threads and find points where you have been critical of other players -- as you have been of Von -- and tell you it is not right to repeat your opinions over and over. You have also repeated points you have made in multiple threads.

And yes, you have characterized her, and it was directed at an individual, as you going through her posts to find quotes shows.

Delver
Mar 05, 2013
241
Well I was right about one thing. The minute the post appeared, someone started picking it apart.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
seethe42 on Apr 22, 2014 wrote:
First off I never characterized anyone. I made a broad statement not directed at an individual. I have no problem with valid criticism of the game, but adding the I'm quitting statement to posts in nearly every thread serves no purpose.

A small sample
Both of my subs are up in October. I sincerely doubt that I'll be renewing them. -Mar 6

(both of my subs are both up in october and, unless this changes, i will not be renewing) -Apr 2

I love this game, but I'm so sick of KI catering to the hardcore set and having to listen to said players whine that things are "too easy", when casual players are struggling. I have not been through Test yet, for fear that I will not want to play the game anymore after seeing it.
I will take one wizard through to level 100. After that, it will be on a case-by-case basis.- Apr 16

i will be taking one wizard through to level 100. anything after that will be on a case-by-case basis until my subs run out. and, since i haven't played in nearly a month, i doubt i'll be renewing. - Apr 17

In case anyone was curious, I haven't played the game itself in almost 4 weeks. The fun is gone: I fail to see the point of putting in work that is not fairly compensated, let alone working for free... But that's just me. Apr 19


You've never seen "I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way." but isn't "both of my subs are both up in october and, unless this changes, i will not be renewing" exactly the same thing?My post was not about the right to an opinion or whether I think it's valid. It's about the repeated statements over and over.
This sounds like we may be miscommunicating:

"My post was not about the right to an opinion or whether I think it's valid. It's about the repeated statements over and over."

In no way was my post meant to be about the right to an opinion. I get that the redundancy is annoying, but I also wasn't specifically responding to that. In your post you said:

"So many of you keep attacking statements of "If you don't like, you can always stop playing" yet no one seems to have a problem with "I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way." Do you really see any difference?"


This is what my response was meant to center around and for that, the answer is yes. Yes I do see a big difference. That difference was the point of my post. I apologize for jumping to the conclusion that you were specifically characterizing Von's statements, however, given that I recognize the majority (if not all) of the statements you posted as Von's I have to assume I wasn't that far off the mark. Having had my issues with this game, it is difficult for me to criticize disgruntlement working its way into posts.

To respond to the final question of your post:

"You've never seen "I don't like it, so I'm going to quit unless I get my way." but isn't "both of my subs are both up in october and, unless this changes, i will not be renewing" exactly the same thing?"

I don't find them to be exactly the same thing, no. I realize it is shades of gray and open to interpretation, but the former denotes more of an immature tantrum while the latter is a more adult expression of displeasure and informed consequences. After all, how is one to inform KI of issues which they are willing to leave the game over if they don't make some sort of statement like this? While I understand that they boil down in an almost identical way, their respective connotations are different to me.

Regardless, my last post wasn't about splitting these hairs as I wouldn't have bothered posting if it was. It was about the difference between "if it doesn't change I'm quitting" and "if you don't like it you can quit" for which I stand by my response that yes, there is a big difference.

Adherent
Jul 03, 2010
2638
valdushawkflame on Apr 23, 2014 wrote:
Well I was right about one thing. The minute the post appeared, someone started picking it apart.
No, no I wasn't picking it apart, sry if you felt that is what I was doing - I was giving a very brief idea of my thoughts on the tiers. The rest of my post is really about game play in general etc..

Mary

Squire
Sep 07, 2011
593
KR part one was pretty easy, and AZ has been nerfed. The game isn't very hardcore compared to many MMOs. Should we be level 90+ and still fighting like we're on Unicorn way? I don't think so.

Most of KR2 can be done solo, but the last few areas have some tricky dungeons with multiple cheating bosses. There are a couple fights that require some thinking. I can't wait for this live!

I suggest those who are concerned start looking for friends to help with those few instances. I can't believe that at the end of a four year arc, epic, world-ending battles that require a team are a hardship. I'm sorry if anyone is disappointed by that, but frankly I'd be disappointed if the culmination of 100 levels was a cakewalk.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 18, 2014 wrote:
So you are suggesting that someone who hates long dungeons and hard bosses goes and farms long dungeons with hard bosses so that they can then go spend more time fighting hard bosses in long dungeons in the main storyline?

Do you even have a clue how utterly absurd this suggestion is? If you like that kind of stuff, then go enjoy it. But not everyone likes it, or should have to like it, to enjoy the game as a whole.

Really, aside from being painfully arrogant, this was one of the most ridiculous and useless comments I have seen on the boards in a long time.
Tartarus is an optional dungeon and if someone continuously complains that they are going to quit over an optional dungeon then it gets a bit annoying. It's good to express your opinion but no one needs to express it 10 times and that they are going to quit if they don't get something their way.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 21, 2014 wrote:
In the first case (telling someone else to stop playing), the speaker is telling someone else what to do, without respecting the other person's wants as valid or important. The person is not assuming personal responsibility for trying to resolve an issue, but they are trying to place everything on the person they are talking to. The speaker is making a kind of an attack -- telling someone else to go away.

In the second case, the person is expressing their own personal frustration. They are saying what their upset is. They are also assuming personal responsibility for that upset, by saying how they themselves will act if the upset is not addressed. They are not telling someone else what to do or where to go. However, in this expression of frustration, there is also a request both to KI and to the community at large that we all might come to a better solution together, so that everyone's needs can be met.

In Von's case, what I see is someone who has been very active in the game and in the boards, and who has had a lot of very helpful contributions both to players in the game and to these boards. I imagine that leaving the game would come as a real loss to her -- she has enjoyed it greatly for years. But what she has enjoyed so greatly is slowly getting twisted into something other that what she had come to enjoy. She is right to speak up about this twisted situation! She is also not alone in noticing the twist -- many of us have been upset by it.

KI does need to know that there are consequences to changing the nature of the game so much. Committed players who have been with the game for years, players who have been active contributors to the game, are frustrated and thinking about leaving because the game is moving too far away from what it was targeted to be, and what it was for years. That is information that KI should know, and that the community should know.
I see what you are saying but there is no need to attack others just because they feel something is fine the way it is while the others disagree. You act as though EVERYONE is on your side. Sorry, but everyone isn't on your side on this topic. I find it thrilling to vs cheating bosses. I feel the game will get boring if all you and your opponent does is simply cast attacks, blades, shields, etc. So, people are on both sides of this topic but there is no need to attack anyone you feel is "arrogant" and/or disagrees with you.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 23, 2014 wrote:
She has as much right to express her feelings about the game as you do Seethe. People could also go through your threads and find points where you have been critical of other players -- as you have been of Von -- and tell you it is not right to repeat your opinions over and over. You have also repeated points you have made in multiple threads.

And yes, you have characterized her, and it was directed at an individual, as you going through her posts to find quotes shows.
Exactly, and those who like cheating bosses should be able to express their feelings too without being attacked right?

Survivor
Jul 25, 2009
22
I honestly have to agree with this post

My transcendent diviner has been struggling because of some of the bosses in Avalon... I have hardly any friends that come on and sometimes if I trying to look for someone on friends list, it pretty much they have defriended me (even if we beat Celestia and Zarfaria together ). I think KI needs to really needs to improve this (thought most of their time seems to be put into making sales and promoting the test realm). If anyone here is still playing, feel free to send me a friend request

- Destiny Swiftstalker lvl 72
(Stuck in Avalon)

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
stormninja542 on Apr 23, 2014 wrote:
Tartarus is an optional dungeon and if someone continuously complains that they are going to quit over an optional dungeon then it gets a bit annoying. It's good to express your opinion but no one needs to express it 10 times and that they are going to quit if they don't get something their way.
The person I was responding to was telling Von to go into the optional dungeon so that she could get better gear for the mainline dungeon.

But she was complaining about the mainline dungeon, not Tartarus. You completely missed the point of my post. None of us are complaining about optional dungeons being hard. In fact, just the opposite. We are suggesting that the hard stuff be placed in optional dungeons, so that those who enjoy them Can go there, while the ones who do not enjoy them don't have to suffer through them.

Before you criticize a post, be sure to understand it first.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
stormninja542 on Apr 23, 2014 wrote:
I see what you are saying but there is no need to attack others just because they feel something is fine the way it is while the others disagree. You act as though EVERYONE is on your side. Sorry, but everyone isn't on your side on this topic. I find it thrilling to vs cheating bosses. I feel the game will get boring if all you and your opponent does is simply cast attacks, blades, shields, etc. So, people are on both sides of this topic but there is no need to attack anyone you feel is "arrogant" and/or disagrees with you.
Again, you are completely missing the point of what I have said.

I do not think everyone is on my side. I am very aware that there are people who like hard dungeons and cheating bosses. I am therefore trying to argue for a solution that allows the different likes to co-exist. The solution I am suggesting -- over and over -- is that the main line quests and dungeons be accessible and manageable for all players, including the average casual players. The harder, longer, cheating instances should be kept in the optional areas, like Aquila, or in side quests.

In that way everyone is able to enjoy the main line areas, and those who enjoy the greater, longer challenges can still enjoy them. You can still get your thrills fighting cheating bosses, and those of us who hate them don't have to suffer through them.

The opposing point of view -- that the long dungeon & cheating stuff should be put into the main line -- does not allow for everyone to still get enjoyment from the game. This view, in fact, does what you just accused me of here, which is to "act as if EVERYONE is on your side." In this view, there is no way for the casual players to still get their needs met. In this view, only the harder players win.

In my suggestion, I am trying to find a way for everyone to still win -- both sides, not just the casual player, but the harder player as well.

As far as you saying I am "attacking" in my posts -- well, I think I am actually "defending." I am responding to posts that seemed to me to be attacks, and to have gone beyond helpful conversation. But I suppose you are doing the same here -- so if I went beyond helpful, I apologize.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
Just to move this topic in a slightly different direction... I see a lot of posts here talking about wanting to preserve a challenge. I think it is interesting that most of the "keep it challenging" posts in this thread equate cheating bosses to "challenge". I like a challenge as much as the next guy, but I really dislike sudden changes in the rules. Inconsistency flatly irritates me. Is the assumption (which seems to have gone largely unchallenged) here that the game must cheat to make it challenging? If there is no challenge without cheating then that suggests to me that the play system is broken. I have never personally thought of this system as broken. Therefore, it seems to me that KI could make the main quest line appropriately challenging without cheating. I am curious as to others view on this...

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
gtarhannon on Apr 24, 2014 wrote:
Just to move this topic in a slightly different direction... I see a lot of posts here talking about wanting to preserve a challenge. I think it is interesting that most of the "keep it challenging" posts in this thread equate cheating bosses to "challenge". I like a challenge as much as the next guy, but I really dislike sudden changes in the rules. Inconsistency flatly irritates me. Is the assumption (which seems to have gone largely unchallenged) here that the game must cheat to make it challenging? If there is no challenge without cheating then that suggests to me that the play system is broken. I have never personally thought of this system as broken. Therefore, it seems to me that KI could make the main quest line appropriately challenging without cheating. I am curious as to others view on this...
Great suggestion. In fact, it might be good to look beyond the combat system entirely as a way to introduce challenge and variety. In the earlier worlds I also remember several puzzles we had to complete to advance. That kind of a change could be refreshing.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
gtarhannon on Apr 24, 2014 wrote:
Just to move this topic in a slightly different direction... I see a lot of posts here talking about wanting to preserve a challenge. I think it is interesting that most of the "keep it challenging" posts in this thread equate cheating bosses to "challenge". I like a challenge as much as the next guy, but I really dislike sudden changes in the rules. Inconsistency flatly irritates me. Is the assumption (which seems to have gone largely unchallenged) here that the game must cheat to make it challenging? If there is no challenge without cheating then that suggests to me that the play system is broken. I have never personally thought of this system as broken. Therefore, it seems to me that KI could make the main quest line appropriately challenging without cheating. I am curious as to others view on this...
Boss cheats are a puzzle to solve. They tell you the rules, usually in the form of a cryptic statement. The battle system isn't broken, but without shaking things up at a handful of pivotal battles, it really would become a tedious job of just blade, blade, trap, hit. Without additional challenges, ie rule changers or cheats, the game would have become extremely boring a long time ago. Would you really find it any sort of challenge if they just made the main bosses have a little more health?

Without their unique spells and triggers there would be no challenge. If you want to remove all cheats, shouldn't we also remove all the player cheats too? Your healing pet, may cast shields/traps/blades/auras, pet boosts, gear boosts... Creatures in the game don't have use of any of those things. They don't have use of Sun School enchants or Treasure Cards either. If you are so dead set against changes in rules, why support players having all those advantages over the creatures in the game?

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 24, 2014 wrote:
The person I was responding to was telling Von to go into the optional dungeon so that she could get better gear for the mainline dungeon.

But she was complaining about the mainline dungeon, not Tartarus. You completely missed the point of my post. None of us are complaining about optional dungeons being hard. In fact, just the opposite. We are suggesting that the hard stuff be placed in optional dungeons, so that those who enjoy them Can go there, while the ones who do not enjoy them don't have to suffer through them.

Before you criticize a post, be sure to understand it first.
Errol was explaining how if Von spent more time doing TARTARUS (an optional dungeon) as much as she did complaining then she'd have her gear. I agree with Errol mainly because this constant complaining is getting annoying.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 24, 2014 wrote:
Again, you are completely missing the point of what I have said.

I do not think everyone is on my side. I am very aware that there are people who like hard dungeons and cheating bosses. I am therefore trying to argue for a solution that allows the different likes to co-exist. The solution I am suggesting -- over and over -- is that the main line quests and dungeons be accessible and manageable for all players, including the average casual players. The harder, longer, cheating instances should be kept in the optional areas, like Aquila, or in side quests.

In that way everyone is able to enjoy the main line areas, and those who enjoy the greater, longer challenges can still enjoy them. You can still get your thrills fighting cheating bosses, and those of us who hate them don't have to suffer through them.

The opposing point of view -- that the long dungeon & cheating stuff should be put into the main line -- does not allow for everyone to still get enjoyment from the game. This view, in fact, does what you just accused me of here, which is to "act as if EVERYONE is on your side." In this view, there is no way for the casual players to still get their needs met. In this view, only the harder players win.

In my suggestion, I am trying to find a way for everyone to still win -- both sides, not just the casual player, but the harder player as well.

As far as you saying I am "attacking" in my posts -- well, I think I am actually "defending." I am responding to posts that seemed to me to be attacks, and to have gone beyond helpful conversation. But I suppose you are doing the same here -- so if I went beyond helpful, I apologize.
"Committed players who have been with the game for years, players who have been active contributors to the game, are frustrated and thinking about leaving because the game is moving too far away from what is was targeted to be, and what is was for years." This explains a lot of how you feel everyone is on your side when really everyone isn't. From what I understand from this post, the OP does not want ANY cheating bosses. It seems to me that you are NOT on the harder players' side because it seems as though you want cheating bosses removed as much as Von does. You were attacking those you agree with the way the game is played now so I definitely don't think you're any where near the harder players' side.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
seethe42 on Apr 24, 2014 wrote:
Boss cheats are a puzzle to solve. They tell you the rules, usually in the form of a cryptic statement. The battle system isn't broken, but without shaking things up at a handful of pivotal battles, it really would become a tedious job of just blade, blade, trap, hit. Without additional challenges, ie rule changers or cheats, the game would have become extremely boring a long time ago. Would you really find it any sort of challenge if they just made the main bosses have a little more health?

Without their unique spells and triggers there would be no challenge. If you want to remove all cheats, shouldn't we also remove all the player cheats too? Your healing pet, may cast shields/traps/blades/auras, pet boosts, gear boosts... Creatures in the game don't have use of any of those things. They don't have use of Sun School enchants or Treasure Cards either. If you are so dead set against changes in rules, why support players having all those advantages over the creatures in the game?
Do you PvP? Do you find it challenging? If so, then why? There are no system cheats there. What is stopping bosses from utilizing spells that they don't currently utilize rather than making system cheats?

If you feel this way:

The battle system isn't broken, but without shaking things up at a handful of pivotal battles, it really would become a tedious job of just blade, blade, trap, hit.

Then I'm sorry... I just don't understand why you still play the game at all. Chess is essentially the same thing over and over and over. I don't really get tired of chess. Are you saying that I should unless I arbitrarily change the rules with a cryptic message "puzzle"? I enjoy the challenge and strategy of the actual game. Changing the rules makes it a different game.

In regard to this:

If you want to remove all cheats, shouldn't we also remove all the player cheats too? Your healing pet, may cast shields/traps/blades/auras, pet boosts, gear boosts...

I do not now, nor have I ever, liked any maycast talents. I'm certain I have a few pets that have them but it isn't intentional and it annoys me. I would breed them out if the pet system wasn't so tedious and annoying. I don't understand why any advanced player would use them, except that we have now established that "cheats" are part of the main game and therefore ok. You will not find me defending, advocating, or supporting these sorts of things. I see many things that have been done on pets as a direct source of much school animosity because it provides the avenue for things like ice immunity. Having said all that, if you recognize that not every player is advanced (nor expected to be in the core audience) then having your pet help you is valid when you are always playing at a 2 on 1 (or worse) disadvantage.

With this:

They don't have use of Sun School enchants or Treasure Cards either. If you are so dead set against changes in rules, why support players having all those advantages over the creatures in the game?

You seem to be jumping to conclusions. I think we should give bosses access to sun school enchants or the odd treasure card. I would be MUCH happier with bosses that acted more like players than the current system of using cheats. So, suggest we use the existing system to gin up the actual bosses rather than put cheats in the mainline quests. Have them heal, have them cast globals, lets make it a challenge within the rules and save cheats for optional quests/worlds. If it can't be a challenge within the rules then I submit to you that the rules are broken.