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so done with the cheating bosses.

AuthorMessage
Survivor
Apr 29, 2011
11
Dr Von on Apr 12, 2014 wrote:
"So what is your definition on a casual gamer?"

Someone who plays for fun and relaxation; possibly inexperienced. The target audience for this game.

"These cheating bosses are few and far between in the story line/the only things that make questing in the worlds interesting."

The story itself should be what keeps things interesting.

Cheating bosses are great for those with the resources: lots of friends who are available 24/7, uber gear and pet, loads of spare time and money... Not so, for the average casual player. For us, such instances are torturous: unnecessarily long, boring, and definitely not worth it.

"These bosses are healthy for the game/add variety on the main quest line."

I can understand minor cheats to shake things up, but not ridiculous ones. Casual players often get stuck on such instances because they lack the resources to complete them. Stuck players are frustrated players, and frustrated players leave.

You are obviously a very experienced gamer; I, for one, do not have your gaming credentials, and I shouldn't have to. Sometimes, I just want to unwind after a crappy day at work... but I can't do that when the game has become just that: more work.

"If the cheats were removed... The average player would get bored and leave."

No. The average hardcore player would get bored and leave. So leave all the hardcore stuff to optional dungeons and out of the main storyline.

The reason I liked this game was that it wasn't stressful, or a guild-driven, elitist bloodbath like WoW. A game should not be stressful, and any "challenge" should be tempered with fun... All work and no fun make von a bored and unhappy wizard.

"You've been able to solo these bosses, it looks like they're just an annoyance."

Yes, I did solo most of the game, because I had no other choice. I don't like using henchmen; if I do, it's usually because the instance is so boring that I can't be bothered anymore and will do anything to make the torture end.

-von
Wow Von! Seriously?

If the game bothers you this much and has become "torture" why not simply distance yourself from it? I have seen several of your post of late and nearly all of it has the appearance of a temper tantrum of a young child not getting what he wished for. Really, just look at your posts (especially the Hades posts) and read them from an outsiders point of view.

You even get to a point where you threatened to leave the game if none of your wishes are met. It's borderline towards a spoiled brat attitude.

So the game has become difficult, challenging and frustrating for you. Live with it, or leave the game. There are plenty of people who enjoys the game as is. Imagine if KI actually granted your wish, then we will have other subscribers who will rant on how easy the game has become and they will threaten to leave the game. I am sure there are more people who prefers the game as is. I say this while considering how KI has not change the difficulty level, it only suggests the your issue is in the minority when compared to the other end of the spectrum. Just think about it. You, and a few others, may leave with frustrations, but countless more will likely stay because they love the challenge. Majority wins and rules. Democracy at it's finest .

Myself personally, like yourself, found the game difficult at certain stages. I got frustrated and annoyed at times, however, I learned from mistakes, adjusted my strategy/approach and overcame the challenges (there is always a way to beat a boss, you just have to be clever enough to discover them). I like for things to be more challenging than the last. You gain better appreciations when you overcome challenges. Some people, however, likes the redundancy, and they like to rant about it when they do not get their way. You cannot keep everyone happy. I am sure KI has kept this in mind when creating the difficulty levels. Drawing from that and what KI has continued to do, there are more of us challenge seekers than the casual redundant seeking players.

Not really wanting to bicker with you, I just want to point out the appearance you are showing of yourself whenever you go on one of this rant filled posts.

Logan Blueflame - Level 95 Promethean

Explorer
May 11, 2012
91
Dr Von on Apr 12, 2014 wrote:
"So what is your definition on a casual gamer?"

Someone who plays for fun and relaxation; possibly inexperienced. The target audience for this game.

"These cheating bosses are few and far between in the story line/the only things that make questing in the worlds interesting."

The story itself should be what keeps things interesting.

Cheating bosses are great for those with the resources: lots of friends who are available 24/7, uber gear and pet, loads of spare time and money... Not so, for the average casual player. For us, such instances are torturous: unnecessarily long, boring, and definitely not worth it.

"These bosses are healthy for the game/add variety on the main quest line."

I can understand minor cheats to shake things up, but not ridiculous ones. Casual players often get stuck on such instances because they lack the resources to complete them. Stuck players are frustrated players, and frustrated players leave.

You are obviously a very experienced gamer; I, for one, do not have your gaming credentials, and I shouldn't have to. Sometimes, I just want to unwind after a crappy day at work... but I can't do that when the game has become just that: more work.

"If the cheats were removed... The average player would get bored and leave."

No. The average hardcore player would get bored and leave. So leave all the hardcore stuff to optional dungeons and out of the main storyline.

The reason I liked this game was that it wasn't stressful, or a guild-driven, elitist bloodbath like WoW. A game should not be stressful, and any "challenge" should be tempered with fun... All work and no fun make von a bored and unhappy wizard.

"You've been able to solo these bosses, it looks like they're just an annoyance."

Yes, I did solo most of the game, because I had no other choice. I don't like using henchmen; if I do, it's usually because the instance is so boring that I can't be bothered anymore and will do anything to make the torture end.

-von
I am in complete agreement with everything you said Von. I WANT to be a casual player. That's what I thought KI had made the game for. This was touted as a family-friendly game. I may be wrong, but I don't think they have as many families playing this game together any more, at least not in the second arc. I am a middle-aged mom with enough stress in my life; I don't need stress from a game. I started Wizard101 as a fun escape from the stress, and am now finding nothing but stress. I have been stuck in Avalon for over a year now ( I was never in a world for more than a week or two before the second arc); I don't think I will ever get to see Azteca, let alone the other new worlds coming out. I enjoyed the first arc; that was what I was looking for in a game. Yes, I went along at a good clip, depending on friends for help when things got a little dicey, but my friends are LONG gone because of how difficult the game has gotten. I have tried to make new friends to quest with but have found only people who want to friend you to get stuff from you, people that are too low level to help in the higher worlds, or people who are a high enough level but have their own little groups and are not looking for anybody new to include. Yes, I can use the new dungeon help feature, but what good is that when I don't have TIME to spend on dungeons that take HOURS?! I use to play this game ALL the time (whenever I got a free couple of minutes); now I find myself logging in only once every couple of days and not staying very long after I tend to my garden. I have never done Tower of the Helephant, and have only managed to do Waterworks once. I can go to the sites where you can set up times for wizards to come and help you, but I never know what my schedule is going to be like in real life, so that option is out. And I have WONDERFUL gear and well set-up decks; I know what I am doing; the length of the dungeons and the cheating bosses are the problem, at least for the CASUAL gamer (the games target audience).

I know I am going to probably get a lot of negative replies to this post, but I want Wizard101 to go back to what it originally was. There are ways to grow the game without making things so ridiculously hard and long. And with more worlds coming, I fear things are only going to get worse. I miss the game that USE to be Wizard101. I wish KI would listen. I know they nerfed some of the worlds, but they didn't nerf the hours it takes to do the dungeons.

Autumn FairyDreamer Level 79

Adherent
Jul 03, 2010
2638
Autumn Rain on Apr 13, 2014 wrote:
I am in complete agreement with everything you said Von. I WANT to be a casual player. That's what I thought KI had made the game for. This was touted as a family-friendly game. I may be wrong, but I don't think they have as many families playing this game together any more, at least not in the second arc. I am a middle-aged mom with enough stress in my life; I don't need stress from a game. I started Wizard101 as a fun escape from the stress, and am now finding nothing but stress. I have been stuck in Avalon for over a year now ( I was never in a world for more than a week or two before the second arc); I don't think I will ever get to see Azteca, let alone the other new worlds coming out. I enjoyed the first arc; that was what I was looking for in a game. Yes, I went along at a good clip, depending on friends for help when things got a little dicey, but my friends are LONG gone because of how difficult the game has gotten. I have tried to make new friends to quest with but have found only people who want to friend you to get stuff from you, people that are too low level to help in the higher worlds, or people who are a high enough level but have their own little groups and are not looking for anybody new to include. Yes, I can use the new dungeon help feature, but what good is that when I don't have TIME to spend on dungeons that take HOURS?! I use to play this game ALL the time (whenever I got a free couple of minutes); now I find myself logging in only once every couple of days and not staying very long after I tend to my garden. I have never done Tower of the Helephant, and have only managed to do Waterworks once. I can go to the sites where you can set up times for wizards to come and help you, but I never know what my schedule is going to be like in real life, so that option is out. And I have WONDERFUL gear and well set-up decks; I know what I am doing; the length of the dungeons and the cheating bosses are the problem, at least for the CASUAL gamer (the games target audience).

I know I am going to probably get a lot of negative replies to this post, but I want Wizard101 to go back to what it originally was. There are ways to grow the game without making things so ridiculously hard and long. And with more worlds coming, I fear things are only going to get worse. I miss the game that USE to be Wizard101. I wish KI would listen. I know they nerfed some of the worlds, but they didn't nerf the hours it takes to do the dungeons.

Autumn FairyDreamer Level 79
Your post pretty much sums up my experience with the game also.

All my original friends left pre Celestia or in CL. Some how I have never been able to pick up any that are the same as those where and are usually gone off my list shortly.

Sadly holding onto the old game experience hoping it will return is fruitless. KI has decided the original game model did not work for them, family fun gamers don't pay the bills. I let my sub renew for the yearly and now regret it since I am now finally getting tired of deleting and remaking wizards. For the past yr or so I decided to pick from the game the things I still can stand. I do quests and side quests still, I craft the Seal of the Seven Seas and no further. I pet train with low level snacks or some high from my very small garden but really don't expect talents I want. I don't have any attachment to any of my wizards but my original one. I don't spend nearly as much on extras since way back when because I realized how virtual things are here today gone tomorrow. I spend a lot less time in the game in general and skipping days doesn't even make me miss it. I can safely say none of my future wizards will go past the end of Avalon. Azteca's play style did me in, I don't want that type of "challenge" from a game and I don't need it to be work to progress my wizards a long. The time and effort to equip your wizard past level 58 gear sets is a bad joke the game plays on us.

I am not whining or complaining for the game to change - I have rallied for more fair in the game but in the end what good will either do me. KI knows the traffic on the servers for given worlds, they have the information they need to make the game for the majority of it's users. I have also lost a little faith in the game since Spritely was "adjusted". I realized I could have things in game that I depended on taken away from me with a few lines of code. It is also possible we have just over stayed our welcome and it's time to pass the wand on to the next generation of Wizard101 players.

Mary

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
Logan Blueflame on Apr 13, 2014 wrote:
Wow Von! Seriously?

If the game bothers you this much and has become "torture" why not simply distance yourself from it? I have seen several of your post of late and nearly all of it has the appearance of a temper tantrum of a young child not getting what he wished for. Really, just look at your posts (especially the Hades posts) and read them from an outsiders point of view.

You even get to a point where you threatened to leave the game if none of your wishes are met. It's borderline towards a spoiled brat attitude.

So the game has become difficult, challenging and frustrating for you. Live with it, or leave the game. There are plenty of people who enjoys the game as is. Imagine if KI actually granted your wish, then we will have other subscribers who will rant on how easy the game has become and they will threaten to leave the game. I am sure there are more people who prefers the game as is. I say this while considering how KI has not change the difficulty level, it only suggests the your issue is in the minority when compared to the other end of the spectrum. Just think about it. You, and a few others, may leave with frustrations, but countless more will likely stay because they love the challenge. Majority wins and rules. Democracy at it's finest .

Myself personally, like yourself, found the game difficult at certain stages. I got frustrated and annoyed at times, however, I learned from mistakes, adjusted my strategy/approach and overcame the challenges (there is always a way to beat a boss, you just have to be clever enough to discover them). I like for things to be more challenging than the last. You gain better appreciations when you overcome challenges. Some people, however, likes the redundancy, and they like to rant about it when they do not get their way. You cannot keep everyone happy. I am sure KI has kept this in mind when creating the difficulty levels. Drawing from that and what KI has continued to do, there are more of us challenge seekers than the casual redundant seeking players.

Not really wanting to bicker with you, I just want to point out the appearance you are showing of yourself whenever you go on one of this rant filled posts.

Logan Blueflame - Level 95 Promethean
Logan, Von is a promethean 3 times over, so obviously she has figured out how to "solve challenges." What she said was hardly a "rant" -- though I can not say the same for your post. In fact, your post displayed exactly what you were accusing her of -- telling her to leave, calling her a "spoiled brat" throwing a "temper tantrum" -- such insults are really not helpful and give no positive contribution to the conversation.

Von clearly answered the questions that were set out in an earlier post. She articulated what many of us who have been playing for a long time feel: that the game has veered far away from the game it was when we started playing, and from the game it promoted itself to be.

She also never said that everyone has to want to be a casual player -- only that there should be a way to keep the game true to its original promise of a casual family game.

On the other hand, your post leaves no room for any style of play other than your style, and leaves no place for considerate conversation. You are not only bickering with her, you are in fact ranting, and insulting. Totally uncalled for behavior.

Your understanding of "democracy", by the way, is very shallow and inaccurate. Democracy is not just "majority rule," but also based on defending the rights of all people, whether in the majority or in any minority. It is a way that allows people responsibly to come together to solve issues that affect everyone in the most reasonable way they can, and thereby hopefully form a society in which human reason, guided by sound ethics, can work for the good of all. Democracy allows for -- and even encourages -- difference of opinion, so that we can grow beyond our small individual and self-centered views, and form a society greater than any single point of view could form.

So -- leaving aside the highly debatable claim that Von is in the minority in wishing the game to be casual and friendly like it used to be -- Democracy is much more than a simple "majority rule."

So Logan, how about trying to understand and appreciate other points of view, and work toward genuine democracy, instead of just insulting those you disagree with and telling them to go away?

Finnigan, level 95 promethean (with several other wizards including a PVP warlord)

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
Logan Blueflame on Apr 13, 2014 wrote:
Wow Von! Seriously?

If the game bothers you this much and has become "torture" why not simply distance yourself from it? I have seen several of your post of late and nearly all of it has the appearance of a temper tantrum of a young child not getting what he wished for. Really, just look at your posts (especially the Hades posts) and read them from an outsiders point of view.

You even get to a point where you threatened to leave the game if none of your wishes are met. It's borderline towards a spoiled brat attitude.

So the game has become difficult, challenging and frustrating for you. Live with it, or leave the game. There are plenty of people who enjoys the game as is. Imagine if KI actually granted your wish, then we will have other subscribers who will rant on how easy the game has become and they will threaten to leave the game. I am sure there are more people who prefers the game as is. I say this while considering how KI has not change the difficulty level, it only suggests the your issue is in the minority when compared to the other end of the spectrum. Just think about it. You, and a few others, may leave with frustrations, but countless more will likely stay because they love the challenge. Majority wins and rules. Democracy at it's finest .

Myself personally, like yourself, found the game difficult at certain stages. I got frustrated and annoyed at times, however, I learned from mistakes, adjusted my strategy/approach and overcame the challenges (there is always a way to beat a boss, you just have to be clever enough to discover them). I like for things to be more challenging than the last. You gain better appreciations when you overcome challenges. Some people, however, likes the redundancy, and they like to rant about it when they do not get their way. You cannot keep everyone happy. I am sure KI has kept this in mind when creating the difficulty levels. Drawing from that and what KI has continued to do, there are more of us challenge seekers than the casual redundant seeking players.

Not really wanting to bicker with you, I just want to point out the appearance you are showing of yourself whenever you go on one of this rant filled posts.

Logan Blueflame - Level 95 Promethean
Again, on your claim that Von is in the minority, KI's demographics as posted in Forbes magazine prove you wrong.

quoting the KI spokesperson there:

"While we have a sizable base of “hard-core” gamers that enjoy Wizard101, the majority of our community is made up of 8-14 year olds and adult “casual” gamers. " (Quoting Fred Howard, KI marketing exec, from a Forbes article 7/23/2012)

Again, later in the same article: "Our core audience is 8-12, but we have always approached our products as intended for family entertainment. ...We actually have a huge audience of baby boomers playing Wizard101 for many reasons. Turn based combat eliminates the need for fast twitch computer skills. Our goal is to make games that are easy to get into and easy to understand, yet still deliver a rich storyline and deep strategic gameplay – this approach seems to resonate well with an older audience. ...We have a large audience of parents that play Wizard101. We take significant steps to ensure we provide a safe environment for our younger players."

Though the game is meant to be fun for everyone, the majority of the Wizard101 community is kids and casual gamers. That is the core audience. The strategic gameplay is there, but it is meant first of all to be aimed at the core audience.

And that is exactly what Von, and I, and others have been saying -- straight from the horses mouth, as the saying goes.

Survivor
Apr 29, 2011
11
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 14, 2014 wrote:
Logan, Von is a promethean 3 times over, so obviously she has figured out how to "solve challenges." What she said was hardly a "rant" -- though I can not say the same for your post. In fact, your post displayed exactly what you were accusing her of -- telling her to leave, calling her a "spoiled brat" throwing a "temper tantrum" -- such insults are really not helpful and give no positive contribution to the conversation.

Von clearly answered the questions that were set out in an earlier post. She articulated what many of us who have been playing for a long time feel: that the game has veered far away from the game it was when we started playing, and from the game it promoted itself to be.

She also never said that everyone has to want to be a casual player -- only that there should be a way to keep the game true to its original promise of a casual family game.

On the other hand, your post leaves no room for any style of play other than your style, and leaves no place for considerate conversation. You are not only bickering with her, you are in fact ranting, and insulting. Totally uncalled for behavior.

Your understanding of "democracy", by the way, is very shallow and inaccurate. Democracy is not just "majority rule," but also based on defending the rights of all people, whether in the majority or in any minority. It is a way that allows people responsibly to come together to solve issues that affect everyone in the most reasonable way they can, and thereby hopefully form a society in which human reason, guided by sound ethics, can work for the good of all. Democracy allows for -- and even encourages -- difference of opinion, so that we can grow beyond our small individual and self-centered views, and form a society greater than any single point of view could form.

So -- leaving aside the highly debatable claim that Von is in the minority in wishing the game to be casual and friendly like it used to be -- Democracy is much more than a simple "majority rule."

So Logan, how about trying to understand and appreciate other points of view, and work toward genuine democracy, instead of just insulting those you disagree with and telling them to go away?

Finnigan, level 95 promethean (with several other wizards including a PVP warlord)
Alright. Let's see where this leads, Mr. Windrider.

I will attempt to answer paragraph per paragraph.

- I am aware that Von is Promethean 3 times over. Her original complaints was regarding her Storm character. She may have solved challenges with the others, but have a "torturous" time with her Storm and decided to complain as she clearly found it difficult, otherwise, there would be no post. I did not tell her to leave, I provided the options available to her, considering how she finds the game "torturous" at times. You either stay and live with the challenges or you leave and rid yourself of what she termed as being torture. And to call her gearing towards "borderline" spoiled brat attitude is not an insult when that is what she choose to show herself as, it's stating truth/facts. Has she not made herself appear as one? Read all her posts, not just this one but all the Hades/Tartarus post as well. Then tell me honestly if I am wrong. In one of those post she threatened to leave the game if KI did not make changes that suited her. Placing threats if her demands are not met, what attitude would you term that? Look it up and you will see.

-2nd & 3rd Paragraph: True the game has shifted. However, deducing from the direction of difficulties KI has gone towards, it suggests there is more demand for the current setting. Logical, yes?

-4th: I am aware I was bickering. It's why I stated "not really wanting to bicker" in my reply. However, I was left with no other form to point out what attitude she is showing. And again not insulting, stating truth/fact about her complaints and the platform she choose to show it. If she, or you, were insulted then tell her to stop acting like it. Otherwise, I cannot state her negative attitude if it's truthfully not there.

- 5th: As for the Democracy part; I must admit, I find it funny you felt the need to go to rooted details at an attempt to explain. I will not elaborate on this, simply because it will be pointless to go into the political realm due to an online game. My comment was meant to have a simplistic understanding of how the settings of the game favours one side, in this case the appearance of a majority over the difficulty issue. If the game became easier and more manageable, then it suggests more 'casual" subscribers, would it not? But the consistent increase in difficulty level suggests otherwise. Yes? Thus the majority wins in this case. Do the deduction yourself.

-6th: Claim may perhaps be debatable. But deductions and observation does suggest Von my just be in the minority regarding this issue.

-7th: I have my view as well and you may rebut it if you wish. Von threatened to leave the game herself if her demands were not met. I was rehashing what she would be planning to already do. Not suggesting that she leaves, but if she is tortured by staying, what other options can be offered? Game does not appear to turn towards her favour.
Stay and be tortured or leave and be content. Her choice.

Survivor
Apr 29, 2011
11
FinnAgainWindrider on Apr 14, 2014 wrote:
Again, on your claim that Von is in the minority, KI's demographics as posted in Forbes magazine prove you wrong.

quoting the KI spokesperson there:

"While we have a sizable base of “hard-core” gamers that enjoy Wizard101, the majority of our community is made up of 8-14 year olds and adult “casual” gamers. " (Quoting Fred Howard, KI marketing exec, from a Forbes article 7/23/2012)

Again, later in the same article: "Our core audience is 8-12, but we have always approached our products as intended for family entertainment. ...We actually have a huge audience of baby boomers playing Wizard101 for many reasons. Turn based combat eliminates the need for fast twitch computer skills. Our goal is to make games that are easy to get into and easy to understand, yet still deliver a rich storyline and deep strategic gameplay – this approach seems to resonate well with an older audience. ...We have a large audience of parents that play Wizard101. We take significant steps to ensure we provide a safe environment for our younger players."

Though the game is meant to be fun for everyone, the majority of the Wizard101 community is kids and casual gamers. That is the core audience. The strategic gameplay is there, but it is meant first of all to be aimed at the core audience.

And that is exactly what Von, and I, and others have been saying -- straight from the horses mouth, as the saying goes.
Part 2, Mr Windrider.

-1st/2nd paragraph: The date of the quote is outdated. It was before more difficult worlds appeared.
"Community is made up of 8-14 year olds." That does not mean those are not hardcore players. In fact it suggests they have more time to spend (especially in the summer) to play the game and does mean have more experience and are actually in favour of harder difficulties. Have you seen some of the games they currently play (PS/X-box/PC) and are available to them nowadays? Von would be going insane about the difficulties if she were to play them herself. Then the quote says "and adult casual gamers," it did not say whether that includes the 8-14 year old gamers.

-3rd: It is family entertainment, I agree. But everyone has a different tolerance or understanding of what is easy/difficult. And yes, it is easy to get in to (not as in easy in terms of difficulty level) and understand with rich storyline and deep strategic play that provides a safe environment. Nowhere in that quote did they ever state about the range of the difficulty level that it may eventually become. No promises made regarding that issue.

No promises towards the difficulty setting, please explain that to Von.

Adherent
Feb 07, 2011
2923
Logan Blueflame on Apr 13, 2014 wrote:
Wow Von! Seriously?

If the game bothers you this much and has become "torture" why not simply distance yourself from it? I have seen several of your post of late and nearly all of it has the appearance of a temper tantrum of a young child not getting what he wished for. Really, just look at your posts (especially the Hades posts) and read them from an outsiders point of view.

You even get to a point where you threatened to leave the game if none of your wishes are met. It's borderline towards a spoiled brat attitude.

So the game has become difficult, challenging and frustrating for you. Live with it, or leave the game. There are plenty of people who enjoys the game as is. Imagine if KI actually granted your wish, then we will have other subscribers who will rant on how easy the game has become and they will threaten to leave the game. I am sure there are more people who prefers the game as is. I say this while considering how KI has not change the difficulty level, it only suggests the your issue is in the minority when compared to the other end of the spectrum. Just think about it. You, and a few others, may leave with frustrations, but countless more will likely stay because they love the challenge. Majority wins and rules. Democracy at it's finest .

Myself personally, like yourself, found the game difficult at certain stages. I got frustrated and annoyed at times, however, I learned from mistakes, adjusted my strategy/approach and overcame the challenges (there is always a way to beat a boss, you just have to be clever enough to discover them). I like for things to be more challenging than the last. You gain better appreciations when you overcome challenges. Some people, however, likes the redundancy, and they like to rant about it when they do not get their way. You cannot keep everyone happy. I am sure KI has kept this in mind when creating the difficulty levels. Drawing from that and what KI has continued to do, there are more of us challenge seekers than the casual redundant seeking players.

Not really wanting to bicker with you, I just want to point out the appearance you are showing of yourself whenever you go on one of this rant filled posts.

Logan Blueflame - Level 95 Promethean
I'm really not in the mood to debate with someone who obviously doesn't understand, or even care to attempt to understand, my point of view... Something about beating a dead horse, or the like. So let's cut to the chase, shall we?

Firstly, your understanding of 'democracy' is flawed.

True democracy is not simply majority rule (though that may have worked for you in grade school)- it has to do with the greater good for the greatest number of people, rather than catering to a select few (in this case, the elite uber-players with infinite time and money). It also means that I have the right to an opinion, and the fact that you don't like it does not invalidate it.

Secondly, you accuse me of the exact same behaviour that you, yourself, demonstrate in your post when you insult me and devalue my opinion because you don't like it. Your my-way-or-the-highway mentality is rather juvenile; and, before you start accusing me of anything untoward, read my posts again: the reason I plan to leave the game if things don't change is because I stand up for what I believe in, even if it means standing alone. And I assure you that I most certainly am not standing alone.

I don't think a certain way simply because I'm told to. Children ask permission; adults inform.

-von
level 95 promethean x3


Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
Logan Blueflame on Apr 14, 2014 wrote:
Part 2, Mr Windrider.

-1st/2nd paragraph: The date of the quote is outdated. It was before more difficult worlds appeared.
"Community is made up of 8-14 year olds." That does not mean those are not hardcore players. In fact it suggests they have more time to spend (especially in the summer) to play the game and does mean have more experience and are actually in favour of harder difficulties. Have you seen some of the games they currently play (PS/X-box/PC) and are available to them nowadays? Von would be going insane about the difficulties if she were to play them herself. Then the quote says "and adult casual gamers," it did not say whether that includes the 8-14 year old gamers.

-3rd: It is family entertainment, I agree. But everyone has a different tolerance or understanding of what is easy/difficult. And yes, it is easy to get in to (not as in easy in terms of difficulty level) and understand with rich storyline and deep strategic play that provides a safe environment. Nowhere in that quote did they ever state about the range of the difficulty level that it may eventually become. No promises made regarding that issue.

No promises towards the difficulty setting, please explain that to Von.
I think you will find that the demographics are still about the same. You certainly have no evidence to back up your claim that they have changed significantly.

Your claims about having more time to play for kids making them "in favor of harder difficulites" is pure speculation. As the father of one of those kids, I can say in my own experience, your claim is totally false. The harder gameplay has turned my daughter off. She finds it boring and frustrating. Moreover, you will find throughout these boards many posts from others whose experience is similar to mine. Based on the limited anecdotal evidence from these boards, your claim cannot be upheld. The most you can say is that there has been an ongoing debate between those who want more difficulty and those who do not. But to say the overall demographics have changed is pure speculation, coming from nothing other than your own point of view.

What is more likely is that the hardcore minority, being more hardcore, is disproportionately vocal on the boards. Although, again, based only on the boards, that too is speculation. More logical speculation I think, given what outside data is actually available, but speculation nonetheless.

Furthermore, It is undeniable that the target audience of the game is young people, family, and casual gamers. That has been stated over and over again in KI promotional materials. This target grew KI rapidly into a huge success, with many millions of players worldwide. That huge core audience is not likely to have changed overnight -- those of us who grew to love the game really don't want to leave it.

And if the promise is to have a game fitting for younger kids, families, and casual gamers, then it does set limits on how far the difficulty level goes. If it goes to far, you alienate and lose your target audience. Posts such as the ones that Von and I and others have put up, show that in fact, the target audience is getting alienated by the changes. Parents, their children, grandparents, and casual gaming adults, have all stated that members of their family have left the game in upset, or are thinking about leaving it.

We do not want to leave it. We would rather have the game stay true to its stated target and promise. But if the game changes too much, then it is no longer the game we grew to love. So then we lose, and KI loses, because eventually their core audience will go away. And that actually hurts the harder players here as well -- because without the core family-oriented audience, they are competing for an already over-saturated hardcore gaming market share.

Hero
Feb 26, 2012
717
Logan Blueflame on Apr 14, 2014 wrote:
Alright. Let's see where this leads, Mr. Windrider.

I will attempt to answer paragraph per paragraph.

- I am aware that Von is Promethean 3 times over. Her original complaints was regarding her Storm character. She may have solved challenges with the others, but have a "torturous" time with her Storm and decided to complain as she clearly found it difficult, otherwise, there would be no post. I did not tell her to leave, I provided the options available to her, considering how she finds the game "torturous" at times. You either stay and live with the challenges or you leave and rid yourself of what she termed as being torture. And to call her gearing towards "borderline" spoiled brat attitude is not an insult when that is what she choose to show herself as, it's stating truth/facts. Has she not made herself appear as one? Read all her posts, not just this one but all the Hades/Tartarus post as well. Then tell me honestly if I am wrong. In one of those post she threatened to leave the game if KI did not make changes that suited her. Placing threats if her demands are not met, what attitude would you term that? Look it up and you will see.

-2nd & 3rd Paragraph: True the game has shifted. However, deducing from the direction of difficulties KI has gone towards, it suggests there is more demand for the current setting. Logical, yes?

-4th: I am aware I was bickering. It's why I stated "not really wanting to bicker" in my reply. However, I was left with no other form to point out what attitude she is showing. And again not insulting, stating truth/fact about her complaints and the platform she choose to show it. If she, or you, were insulted then tell her to stop acting like it. Otherwise, I cannot state her negative attitude if it's truthfully not there.

- 5th: As for the Democracy part; I must admit, I find it funny you felt the need to go to rooted details at an attempt to explain. I will not elaborate on this, simply because it will be pointless to go into the political realm due to an online game. My comment was meant to have a simplistic understanding of how the settings of the game favours one side, in this case the appearance of a majority over the difficulty issue. If the game became easier and more manageable, then it suggests more 'casual" subscribers, would it not? But the consistent increase in difficulty level suggests otherwise. Yes? Thus the majority wins in this case. Do the deduction yourself.

-6th: Claim may perhaps be debatable. But deductions and observation does suggest Von my just be in the minority regarding this issue.

-7th: I have my view as well and you may rebut it if you wish. Von threatened to leave the game herself if her demands were not met. I was rehashing what she would be planning to already do. Not suggesting that she leaves, but if she is tortured by staying, what other options can be offered? Game does not appear to turn towards her favour.
Stay and be tortured or leave and be content. Her choice.
As far as you saying that the tendency toward harder gaming is in fact in line with what the majority want, actually, the last update nerfing Azteca and the fact that Khrysalis was toned down from the difficulty level of Azteca, actually would indicate the opposite conclusion. To me, the evidence suggests that the increasing difficulty has in fact upset and alienated too many players and did affect their bottom line, so they saw that they had gone too far and had to pull back on the reins.

Again, it is possible to have the main storyline be friendly to casual gamers and younger players, while at the same time having other areas that cater to people who like greater difficulty. If you want cheating bosses and hard challenges, fine -- but don't make everyone have to want what you want! Put them in areas that are optional, for those players who enjoy such things. But keep them out of the main storyline, so that those players who don't want them, can still enjoy the game!

Why is this simple, and genuinely democratic solution so unacceptable to you? Why do you feel the need to make everyone do and enjoy the things that you want to do? Why are you so unwilling to find a workable compromise, that can allow people like Von, and me, and my daughter, and Northlite, and BrynnerofReign, and others -- who have very much enjoyed this game and committed lots of time and money to it -- to still continue to enjoy the style of game that has brought us so much delight?

You can have gaming experiences that you enjoy, and so can we. That is what we are asking for -- a middle path that can make the game fun for everyone.

Survivor
Apr 06, 2014
35
Your problem is your mindset. Don't think of it as work; think of it as a challenge which makes your wizard stronger.

Survivor
Apr 06, 2014
35
Dr Von on Apr 15, 2014 wrote:
I'm really not in the mood to debate with someone who obviously doesn't understand, or even care to attempt to understand, my point of view... Something about beating a dead horse, or the like. So let's cut to the chase, shall we?

Firstly, your understanding of 'democracy' is flawed.

True democracy is not simply majority rule (though that may have worked for you in grade school)- it has to do with the greater good for the greatest number of people, rather than catering to a select few (in this case, the elite uber-players with infinite time and money). It also means that I have the right to an opinion, and the fact that you don't like it does not invalidate it.

Secondly, you accuse me of the exact same behaviour that you, yourself, demonstrate in your post when you insult me and devalue my opinion because you don't like it. Your my-way-or-the-highway mentality is rather juvenile; and, before you start accusing me of anything untoward, read my posts again: the reason I plan to leave the game if things don't change is because I stand up for what I believe in, even if it means standing alone. And I assure you that I most certainly am not standing alone.

I don't think a certain way simply because I'm told to. Children ask permission; adults inform.

-von
level 95 promethean x3

Guys, seriously? Calm down. You just had a heated debate about a GAME. A GAME. If it is hard, work to get better. Gaming companies spend millions of dollars making sure that their games are possible. Once again, IT IS JUST A GAME. Just play; enjoy it. I do agree, however, that crowns are unfair.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4115
Dr Von on Apr 15, 2014 wrote:
I'm really not in the mood to debate with someone who obviously doesn't understand, or even care to attempt to understand, my point of view... Something about beating a dead horse, or the like. So let's cut to the chase, shall we?

Firstly, your understanding of 'democracy' is flawed.

True democracy is not simply majority rule (though that may have worked for you in grade school)- it has to do with the greater good for the greatest number of people, rather than catering to a select few (in this case, the elite uber-players with infinite time and money). It also means that I have the right to an opinion, and the fact that you don't like it does not invalidate it.

Secondly, you accuse me of the exact same behaviour that you, yourself, demonstrate in your post when you insult me and devalue my opinion because you don't like it. Your my-way-or-the-highway mentality is rather juvenile; and, before you start accusing me of anything untoward, read my posts again: the reason I plan to leave the game if things don't change is because I stand up for what I believe in, even if it means standing alone. And I assure you that I most certainly am not standing alone.

I don't think a certain way simply because I'm told to. Children ask permission; adults inform.

-von
level 95 promethean x3

No offense, but "true democracy" IS simply majority rules. That is why we don't have democracy. We have a representitive democracy, but this isn't politics it's economics. Supply and demand. If KI loses money because it's too hard, they will make it easier. If they make more money by making it harder, they will. It's really that simple and in this case it really IS more like true democracy. People vote with their wallets. If the game were making higher profits by remaining stagnant and never changing, it wouldn't change. You are of course welcome to your opinion, but it doesn't change the econimics of the game business.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
I'd like to start off by saying that I'm not a fan of cheating bosses in the main story line. I'm actually not a fan of cheats just in general, but I don't really have a problem with optional ones. Having said that, however, I did just want to contribute some food for thought. Consider this:

For as long as I can remember (and this goes back to the release of Dragonspyre) every new world starts out much harder and is then eventually "nerfed". If it isn't the entire world, then it is select bosses. Cheats (if there are any) are scaled back, defeat and collects are eventually reduced or drop rates improved, etc. Has anyone considered that this may be part of the balance that KI is striking between the more hard core set and the casuals? After all... the hard core players are much more likely to be the first in. It also lends weight to the argument that ultimately the game does indeed tend to cater to the much more casual players. This is just something to think about...

Adherent
Feb 07, 2011
2923
So, if I understand you correctly, Logan:

If we are unhappy with the status quo, you expect us to 1) stand idly by and keep quiet or 2) leave the game and keep quiet. Hate to break it to you, but that's not democracy. Try again.

(and, while you're at it, reread your post: demanding that I leave because you don't like my opinion, insulting others who disagree with you... sounds like a spoiled brat to me.)

Throughout history, any major changes were made because people spoke out against the status quo. Do you mean to tell me that the various groups who fought for their rights are spoiled brats, too? Can you not hear yourself? Go read a book or something.

Me leaving the game has nothing to do with "my" needs not being met, but I am willing to do so as the needs of many are being ignored.

-von

Delver
Jun 29, 2011
212
Dr Von on Apr 16, 2014 wrote:
So, if I understand you correctly, Logan:

If we are unhappy with the status quo, you expect us to 1) stand idly by and keep quiet or 2) leave the game and keep quiet. Hate to break it to you, but that's not democracy. Try again.

(and, while you're at it, reread your post: demanding that I leave because you don't like my opinion, insulting others who disagree with you... sounds like a spoiled brat to me.)

Throughout history, any major changes were made because people spoke out against the status quo. Do you mean to tell me that the various groups who fought for their rights are spoiled brats, too? Can you not hear yourself? Go read a book or something.

Me leaving the game has nothing to do with "my" needs not being met, but I am willing to do so as the needs of many are being ignored.

-von
Maybe you should spend more time improving your stats instead of arguing on the message board.

Adherent
Jul 03, 2010
2638
gtarhannon on Apr 16, 2014 wrote:
I'd like to start off by saying that I'm not a fan of cheating bosses in the main story line. I'm actually not a fan of cheats just in general, but I don't really have a problem with optional ones. Having said that, however, I did just want to contribute some food for thought. Consider this:

For as long as I can remember (and this goes back to the release of Dragonspyre) every new world starts out much harder and is then eventually "nerfed". If it isn't the entire world, then it is select bosses. Cheats (if there are any) are scaled back, defeat and collects are eventually reduced or drop rates improved, etc. Has anyone considered that this may be part of the balance that KI is striking between the more hard core set and the casuals? After all... the hard core players are much more likely to be the first in. It also lends weight to the argument that ultimately the game does indeed tend to cater to the much more casual players. This is just something to think about...
Personally I think you have figured out the formula. I am not sure I feel any of the game above 1st arc is really a catered event but I guess. The only problem is those first runners taking another or more wizards though those worlds are very disappointed with the nerfing and complain now it's easily soloable, walk in park and the likes. Those who like a little less stress in game play should just lay back a year and do the world then.

I know for me, being a very low keyed type of player, I won't be progressing any more wizards past the end of Avalon which for me is stretching my idea of magical adventure. Nerf or no nerf in Avalon and Azteca I am not sure I see that big of a different in the difficulty to make it enjoyable game play for me. Notice I say for Me. I realize anyone who treks though Celestia is looking forward to the more challenging game play I try to avoid.

All I know is after taking 2 wizards though AZ I stopped questing on the 3rd there because I realized how far away from what I wanted out of the game it had gotten. OTOH - I think KI should get in touch with their players a little more. I recently devoted an ICE wizard to just being a helper - anyone, anywhere, I have a Death wizard in tow of the same level. Most help has been CL - AZ end, I do not help or quest in Kys at all - they are on their own at that point. I have helped hundreds of wizards from DS to end of AZ. The player base is quite diverse, there are many wizards that struggle with the game. Not counting 2 family members all but 1 on my friends list is kids. I will soon be retiring this wizard and have started to wind things down by hatching with anyone an Enchanted Armament pet I managed to hatch in spell proof, MC Unicorn and Fairy Friend. If they don't have the gold I trade them TC's till they do.

What am I most tired of? Cheating bosses that create a stopping point for a lot of wizards till they can get help and proper gear held for hostage in long dungeons a lot of kids just don't have the time for and on top of that, have to be "lucky" to get. Why is the last set of decent gear lvl 58 dropped by normal questing or sold at the Bazaar?

Mary and her Gems

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
I understand and support the fact that the main game should be kept casual. However, I have no problems with the occasional difficult boss. They offer a break in the monotony and a chance for players to test their skills. That concept has not changed from the first arc which had it's set of difficult areas(I.e golem tower as a storm in '09, malistaire etc.) Specifically for Tyman, you want to keep some DoT heals(such as primordial sprite) and use empower to build pips for your end strike. I think KI is seeking a balance between casual and hardcore and KH has come the closest to maintaining that balance so far.

Adherent
Feb 07, 2011
2923
Errol Everhart on Apr 16, 2014 wrote:
Maybe you should spend more time improving your stats instead of arguing on the message board.
and maybe you should get over yourself.

you've been hijacking my threads for at least a month now. you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, ergo i have nothing more to say to you.

-

Mary said:

What am I most tired of? Cheating bosses that create a stopping point for a lot of wizards until they can get help.

i can relate to this.

the last time i ran into a cheating boss, i did not have the resources to complete the quest and was stuck there for a week. my in-game friends are 4 hours behind me, so meeting up with them requires me to stay up late (and we're talking 4-5 in the morning late) which, as an adult with a job, is not practical. the only reason my storm wizard finished xibalba at all was because my friend and i planned a weekend meetup 2 weeks ahead of time.

as anyone who has met me in-game will attest, my gear, etc. is not the issue. all of my wizards have awesome stats, and i worked hard to get them there. the issue is that i am an average casual player: i do not have a hardcore gamer's experience, nor do i have infinite amounts of time, patience, and money to dump into the game.



i agree with eric that the occasional difficult boss is not an issue. xibalba, tortureus, waterworks... all are a piece of cake with the right team, but most of them are optional: i know exactly what i'm in for, and i don't have to slog through them by myself (if i plan far enough ahead and can meet with someone or luck out with the team up feature).

i do have a problem when the cheats are hidden/disguised as normal main-arc quests and then lock you into a specific play-style that you are not prepared for. obviously, my balance and death wizards now know what to expect from tymen and will be able to prepare for it, but my poor storm wizard was the first one through that instance and had no advance notice that there were cheats involved.

(dear ki: as a courtesy, please let us know whether or not the boss cheats or that we need a team to complete the instance)

i will be taking one wizard through to level 100. anything after that will be on a case-by-case basis until my subs run out. and, since i haven't played in nearly a month, i doubt i'll be renewing.

-von

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4115
Dr Von on Apr 17, 2014 wrote:
and maybe you should get over yourself.

you've been hijacking my threads for at least a month now. you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, ergo i have nothing more to say to you.

-

Mary said:

What am I most tired of? Cheating bosses that create a stopping point for a lot of wizards until they can get help.

i can relate to this.

the last time i ran into a cheating boss, i did not have the resources to complete the quest and was stuck there for a week. my in-game friends are 4 hours behind me, so meeting up with them requires me to stay up late (and we're talking 4-5 in the morning late) which, as an adult with a job, is not practical. the only reason my storm wizard finished xibalba at all was because my friend and i planned a weekend meetup 2 weeks ahead of time.

as anyone who has met me in-game will attest, my gear, etc. is not the issue. all of my wizards have awesome stats, and i worked hard to get them there. the issue is that i am an average casual player: i do not have a hardcore gamer's experience, nor do i have infinite amounts of time, patience, and money to dump into the game.



i agree with eric that the occasional difficult boss is not an issue. xibalba, tortureus, waterworks... all are a piece of cake with the right team, but most of them are optional: i know exactly what i'm in for, and i don't have to slog through them by myself (if i plan far enough ahead and can meet with someone or luck out with the team up feature).

i do have a problem when the cheats are hidden/disguised as normal main-arc quests and then lock you into a specific play-style that you are not prepared for. obviously, my balance and death wizards now know what to expect from tymen and will be able to prepare for it, but my poor storm wizard was the first one through that instance and had no advance notice that there were cheats involved.

(dear ki: as a courtesy, please let us know whether or not the boss cheats or that we need a team to complete the instance)

i will be taking one wizard through to level 100. anything after that will be on a case-by-case basis until my subs run out. and, since i haven't played in nearly a month, i doubt i'll be renewing.

-von
I do agree with you on one point. It would be nice if we at least had a warning, like we did in lower levels. In Wysteria for example, the little guy would show up to talk to you and warn you that these wizards cheat. It would at least let you know, maybe I should stop and look up this guy first to prepare.

Delver
Jun 29, 2011
212
Dr Von on Apr 17, 2014 wrote:
and maybe you should get over yourself.

you've been hijacking my threads for at least a month now. you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, ergo i have nothing more to say to you.

-

Mary said:

What am I most tired of? Cheating bosses that create a stopping point for a lot of wizards until they can get help.

i can relate to this.

the last time i ran into a cheating boss, i did not have the resources to complete the quest and was stuck there for a week. my in-game friends are 4 hours behind me, so meeting up with them requires me to stay up late (and we're talking 4-5 in the morning late) which, as an adult with a job, is not practical. the only reason my storm wizard finished xibalba at all was because my friend and i planned a weekend meetup 2 weeks ahead of time.

as anyone who has met me in-game will attest, my gear, etc. is not the issue. all of my wizards have awesome stats, and i worked hard to get them there. the issue is that i am an average casual player: i do not have a hardcore gamer's experience, nor do i have infinite amounts of time, patience, and money to dump into the game.



i agree with eric that the occasional difficult boss is not an issue. xibalba, tortureus, waterworks... all are a piece of cake with the right team, but most of them are optional: i know exactly what i'm in for, and i don't have to slog through them by myself (if i plan far enough ahead and can meet with someone or luck out with the team up feature).

i do have a problem when the cheats are hidden/disguised as normal main-arc quests and then lock you into a specific play-style that you are not prepared for. obviously, my balance and death wizards now know what to expect from tymen and will be able to prepare for it, but my poor storm wizard was the first one through that instance and had no advance notice that there were cheats involved.

(dear ki: as a courtesy, please let us know whether or not the boss cheats or that we need a team to complete the instance)

i will be taking one wizard through to level 100. anything after that will be on a case-by-case basis until my subs run out. and, since i haven't played in nearly a month, i doubt i'll be renewing.

-von
I think my post was very pertinent to this discussion.

If you spent as much time farming Tartarus as you do posting messages and arguing here, you'd have your Hades gear three times over by now. Then you'd have less trouble with cheating bosses.

I'm sure there are others reading this discussion who agree with me.


Hero
Dec 16, 2009
772
Errol Everhart on Apr 18, 2014 wrote:
I think my post was very pertinent to this discussion.

If you spent as much time farming Tartarus as you do posting messages and arguing here, you'd have your Hades gear three times over by now. Then you'd have less trouble with cheating bosses.

I'm sure there are others reading this discussion who agree with me.

Please keep your personal attacks out of this thread. Von has as much a right as the next person to state her opinion. Hade's gear ironically is not the best gear for questing outside of the ring, amulet and athame and sees the most use in PvP. If you have something productive to say then feel welcome to join the discussion, if not then it may be wiser to keep your opinions to yourself.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4115
Errol Everhart on Apr 18, 2014 wrote:
I think my post was very pertinent to this discussion.

If you spent as much time farming Tartarus as you do posting messages and arguing here, you'd have your Hades gear three times over by now. Then you'd have less trouble with cheating bosses.

I'm sure there are others reading this discussion who agree with me.

I do have to agree a bit here. For the past couple months every post has ended with "my subs are up in October and I won't be renewing" on a daily basis. Hopefully that won't continue all the way until October.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
Errol Everhart on Apr 18, 2014 wrote:
I think my post was very pertinent to this discussion.

If you spent as much time farming Tartarus as you do posting messages and arguing here, you'd have your Hades gear three times over by now. Then you'd have less trouble with cheating bosses.

I'm sure there are others reading this discussion who agree with me.

"I think my post was very pertinent to this discussion."

At the risk of interjecting myself where I don't belong... It wasn't pertinent. You have to arrange a party and commit to uninterrupted blocks of time to complete each farming attempt. Throwing out posts as you have time from any computer or even cell phone that you happen to have access to, on the other hand, can be done in small "casual" bursts. If anything, your comment only serves to prove Von's point in this post. Farming for Hades gear cannot be considered a "casual" activity and the fact that you think of it as such clearly illustrates the divide between casuals and more hard core gamers. If you can in any way compare the amount of time it takes to farm Tartarus to the amount of time that it takes Von to post here, then you clearly don't have the same mastery of the language that Von does.

Astrologist
Oct 22, 2011
1073
Errol Everhart on Apr 18, 2014 wrote:
I think my post was very pertinent to this discussion.

If you spent as much time farming Tartarus as you do posting messages and arguing here, you'd have your Hades gear three times over by now. Then you'd have less trouble with cheating bosses.

I'm sure there are others reading this discussion who agree with me.

Actually, your previous and current post is not pertinent to the discussion. You aren't discussing, you're telling someone what to do, when you have no clue as to what that person has done in the game nor do you know what gear that person has.

I don't like cheating bosses in the main storyline, they need to be in side quests or side worlds, so casual players can progress without too much difficulty.

Before you start attacking someone else about their gear or whatnot, all of my wizards have the best gear for their levels. My L95 Ice is a super-tank and has soloed every aspect of the game, including all the side dungeons. I have farmed Aquila about 100 times, and I have yet to see any of the drops. Besides, even if I do get the Hades Ice gear, I won't use it, because the combination of stats I have now are better overall than what I can get from Hades gear.