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Changes to Reshuffle Spell

AuthorMessage
Administrator
Reshuffle has changed. Each reshuffle card you have in your deck or sideboard can only be used once per duel and will not reshuffle itself back into your deck when cast. You can still continue to place multiple copies of Reshuffle into your deck as your deck allows, as well as multiple copies of Treasure Cards. Each Reshuffle can be used once per duel, but you will need to stock your deck with more than one, as once it's used a Reshuffle card does not return for that duel.

This applies to regular Reshuffle that you have trained, and Reshuffle cards that come on items and pets.


community@wizard101.com
Survivor
Feb 10, 2010
1
I believe this is a big mistake, even if there are ways to update a strategy, this reshuffle update just makes matters worse...

Geographer
Mar 12, 2013
937
I suppose this was a long time coming... as soon as I saw W101 taking a long time to CRC check this morning, I knew its day had arrived.

Seems like a lot of folks will have strong feelings about this, one way or the other. It's a reasonable change, but probably one that needed to be applied to PVP only, and not so much to questing.

As far as PVP goes, it can shorten some otherwise interminable games.

It's still a useful spell for questing, especially for testing new combos and team strategies. It should not be use-restricted in questing; the potential for abuse (is that even a thing in cooperative play?) is pretty low.

Survivor
Feb 10, 2011
3
Since this reshuffle change is now in live game, can we at least ask what the reason was for this? I think there's a lot of confusion about why the change was implemented, and any help understanding it would be appreciated.

Was the intention to shorten match times?

Thx

Survivor
May 31, 2010
9
As far as pve, this is a change that makes no sense as far as I'm concerned. It's logical that a reshuffle card "reshuffles" your entire deck instead of canceling itself out--especially when you've used up a point to train that skill. This seems once again like a pvp complaint resolution affecting all players.

I don't pvp--it's the area of the game that I am least interested in. Yet, whenever there is a problem relative to what players who pvp are griping about, the solution ruins something for players who were happy with the game the way it was. I enjoy this game. If KI would just consider the satisfaction of pve players (more often) when they make changes I'd really appreciate it.

Explorer
Jun 10, 2012
95
I'm confused. The post says "each Reshuffle card can be used once per duel," but is also says "once it's used or discarded, a Reshuffle card does not return for that duel." That's a contradiction--discarding is not using.

Say I put two Reshuffle cards in my deck. I discard the first one, because I'm not ready to Reshuffle yet. I later use the second Reshuffle. If the Reshuffle I discarded does not come back, then putting multiple Reshuffles in the deck is useless: some will inevitably come up when you don't need them, and have to be discarded to get to cards you do need at that point.

If that's the case, then I expect my questing days are numbered. My balance wizard is only to Alto Alto, and I've already had battles in Azteca where I've had to Reshuffle more than twice.

Delver
Feb 28, 2012
230
This is not just a PVP issue!! It will also nerf my strategies in PVE. Thanks for a buncha headaches, please pass the full jar of asprin, I'll return it empty.

Survivor
Nov 26, 2011
15
Worst idea ever. Horrible horrible horrible. As much as I hate this change I would have been slightly ok with it if the discarded reshuffle came back. If you get all your reshuffles in your first hand then I guess you are stuck with them for the entire match. Which means less cards will be pulled from your deck per hand which means more discarding. And to top it off if you pull a treasure reshuffle with all your reshuffles in hand then what? Discard that one for good or keep it in hand and take up more space? I don't understand this change at all. I PVP at magus, grandmaster and promethean levels. I don't see any good coming from this change only pure frustration. Unbelievable.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
Reshuffle needs to be brought back KI, pvp isn't even about strategy anymore, it's about gear. Ever since the Keeper's Lore Pack came out, pvp not only went downhill, it went underground. Now, with Reshuffle limited, PvP has gone deeper into trouble. I don't understand why you didn't listen to the hundreds of complaints that people posted, and also from social media. KI, there was a reason why the Reshuffle limit was the hottest topic in the test realm, it was because it was not right. Please reconsider the change and change it back, I'd rather fight vs someone that has jade gear WITH having infinite spells than to fight a jade user without the spells I need. Telling us to use treasure shuffles is a terrible idea, where will the dooms go? How about shatters? KI, you need to change this back, or I'm done with PvP for good.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1556
crunkatog on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
I suppose this was a long time coming... as soon as I saw W101 taking a long time to CRC check this morning, I knew its day had arrived.

Seems like a lot of folks will have strong feelings about this, one way or the other. It's a reasonable change, but probably one that needed to be applied to PVP only, and not so much to questing.

As far as PVP goes, it can shorten some otherwise interminable games.

It's still a useful spell for questing, especially for testing new combos and team strategies. It should not be use-restricted in questing; the potential for abuse (is that even a thing in cooperative play?) is pretty low.
No, this DOES NOT make matches shorter, it makes them LONGER. People will have a pass off when they run out of cards, which can last forever, making matches longer than they were before. This addition to the game shouldn't effect pvp or pve, it ruins the game period.

Survivor
Mar 20, 2010
4
Wow. I just cannot believe this. So, I wasted 15k crowns in buying back tps and buying Balance Ammy, besides the fact that this will RUIN ranked PvP. What it will become: Max main reshuffle, One hit in deck, other than that all heals and shields. Max out reshuffle side. There you go, Turtle 101.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2081
Apparently, KI has realized their error, because it no longer states, "When cast or discarded"

So, I am pretty sure, that if you discard it, it will be "Reshuffled" back into your deck.

As long as this is how it works and is intended, I think it's fine, but if a card is discarded and not put back into the deck when a reshuffle is used, then this change needs to be removed, however, I dont think that is what KI meant to do and why the wording was changed.

DarthJT

Survivor
Sep 13, 2011
4
Some of us have played a number of years and it's always been this way. Personally I think it's a huge mistake no matter what. The card specifically says 'All cards' Intended or not; experienced players are used to this. As far as pvp goes. It puts the lower end players at a great disadvantage, and if you think about it, makes turtle matches worse. What is to stop a life, balance or life mastery just loading nothing but reshuffle into sideboard, maximising trained card in front deck. Loading no attacks, and nothing but heals, shields and minion, then just waiting for the opponent to run out of cards? Now add this theory to a + Level 20 player versus a Level 15 warlord that can't have it trained? They already have limited space in deck, so the Level 20 player has a larger deck, can put more in sideboard, and now can add it to front deck. Kind of unfair don't you think?

A+ Student
Jan 11, 2012
1681
has anybody actually tested to confirm this for PvE? I havent logged in yet for PvE tonight

Squire
Mar 07, 2011
523
arkwayne on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
Since this reshuffle change is now in live game, can we at least ask what the reason was for this? I think there's a lot of confusion about why the change was implemented, and any help understanding it would be appreciated.

Was the intention to shorten match times?

Thx
I am completely bamboozled by the wrong thinking going on in the PvP department. No matter how many times I reshuffle, I can still only play one card at a time. Some players will tell you that by making sun school enchanted spells and reshuffling only makes it harder to find the spell you want. Reshuffle was never the problem with long games, and was often the only solution to creating a winning strategy. You have completely eliminated a fast reshuffle strategy, and made it so the only viable strategy is to go all out offense and hope for the best. Also when I'm in second position I often find myself discarding heavily to survive the initial onslaught, knowing I can reshuffle later and work on a counterattack. Now discarding is a punishable offense and you shall play the cards given to you.

Until I understand the specifics of what you mean by "reshuffle is a one time use card," I'll just sit on the sidelines. Like someone said above, what if I have two reshuffles in my hand and I discard one? Later I reshuffle. Do I now have that discarded reshuffle in my hand or did I lose it forever when i discarded? You can discard treasure cards and have them reshuffle, so I really need to know if discarding a reshuffle loses it permanently.

The idea of turning a trained spell into a treasure card, yet allow me to keep it in my regular deck makes no sense
at all, and sets a dangerous precedent. What regular spell will you arbitrarily turn into a treasure card next? Guardian Spirit perhaps? Why not start allowing us to just place treasure cards in a our regular deck. Our regular deck is no longer for spells we have trained, with regards to reshuffle.

The reason for long PvP matches is high resistance and high health boost, not reshuffle. This change is not only going to change the nature of PvP, it's going to create even longer games. Imagine this. Both players have used up or discarded all their reshuffles and are down to just a few cards left. So now both players pass their turn endlessly, and the game can only end with someone fleeing or getting disconnected. Both players could go to bed and let the game pass turns back and forth for the next 3 days. You could wake up, have some breakfast, and check in on your game of "Pass Pass Pass".

How's this for my new balance strategy? I call it "You ain't seen tanking yet strategy" I'll carry 8 reshuffles, shields, heals, and 90% defensive spells. Eventually you are going to completely run of out of reshuffles. Once I know you are completely out of cards i'll feint feint hex shatter judgement. Please explain to us the logic behind this change because the way I see it, you have guaranteed even longer games.

At the very least reshuffle should reshuffle the reshuffle cards you have discarded.

I have enjoyed almost 5000 games in PvP 1v1. Maybe it's time to retire completely and let the new generation of no reshuffle decks have their chance at this game.

Survivor
Aug 12, 2010
1
This is an update that should not have happened, it is unfair, when millions of wizards trained they trained it with the promise that "Reshuffle: Brings all cards back into the deck" not all cards minus the reshuffle not with reshuffle times one.

Survivor
Mar 19, 2011
36
On this site and at W101 central and at duelist 101 80%-90% of wizards of all schools are opposed to the reshuffle change for many good reasons.

I hope KI listens to it's customers on this issue.

Survivor
Mar 19, 2011
36
Wow.

After weeks of receiving feedback from hundreds of wizards, KI has chosen to implement the change even though 80-90% of players opposed it.

Best I can tell, PvP is the ultimate destination of skilled players.

It was pointed out many times that the change doesn't actually help anything in PvP. and in fact exacerbates the Jade Turtle problem.

At this point I don't see any point in bothering with 1v1 anymore. 2v2 is my favorite but now my only option is basically to Jade up and spam heals and blades to my teammates while spamming weakness at our opponents. But where's the fun in that.

I'm not sure there is any reason to continue playing the game anymore.

I have lots of good friends in the game. I'm actually leader of a pretty cool PvP clan. I am going to miss them.

Survivor
Jul 14, 2010
17
The update to reshuffle is really sad.

First of all, using reshuffle in pve shouldn't really be an issue with this update. I have been playing for years and I have played every school there is. Through all my questing on all my characters I have carried only what I need for each fight in a quest. This leaves pleanty of room to carry multiple reshuffles without worry of how this update affects pve.

On the other hand, the change to reshuffle already is having a major impact on pvp. I spent some time watching pvp matches and the one issue I was worried about is happening the first day of this update. Let me explain.

Jade gear is everywhere in pvp. It's near impossible to OHKO someone who stacks tons of shields and heals in their deck, stacked with a myth mastery for shatter and earthquake. So a turtle packs their deck with nothing but shields and heals, max amount of reshuffle and stacks their side deck with tc reshuffle.

It's almost impossible to beat them unless you can OHKO them! So all they have to do is sit back and keep healed and shielded with no intention of attacking. Then when you get shielded or bladed they shatter or earthquake leaving you an option to dig for more or reshuffle to get your shields and blades back. Can't kill a "jadezilla" without blades. Just not possible.

Be prepaired for turtles in pvp now. Thanks a lot KI! You really upset a lot of the community with this update. You have made it so easy for turtles to win just about every match they join.

Don't believe me? Go spectate the pvp matches for yourself :( Honestly this is just as bad as puppet teams.

You won't catch me doing any ranked pvp until reshuffle gets changed back to the way it was. In my opinion it was perfect the way it was. Reshuffle is a key component to a great percentage of knowledgable pvp players. It's well known that to run a successful pvp deck you need to know how to discard properly and get to the cards you need.

Survivor
Apr 01, 2009
36
arkwayne on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
Since this reshuffle change is now in live game, can we at least ask what the reason was for this? I think there's a lot of confusion about why the change was implemented, and any help understanding it would be appreciated.

Was the intention to shorten match times?

Thx
I was shocked that this went "live". This was heavily complained about by both PvE and PvP wizards. The reshuffle change came completely out of 'the blue", with no one from the community asking for anything like this.

The dead plant "pixie" change was mitigated with a new spell. I'd be very interested to know why "1x reshuffle" was forced in unchanged, when the dead plant "pixie" was at least mitigated.

Survivor
Oct 02, 2011
5
This Reshuffle change feels like its kinda dumb and confusing.
i dont really get the point of this, but what i think is that it is made to shorten pvp.
but i dont think its very fun to win a pvp just because the other person runs out of cards, who wants to win like that. plus this also means that there are going to be many people just standing there just shielding, healing, and tanking until the other player runs out of cards wich will make extremely long battles.
another thing i dont get:
Kingsisle needs to make money of its players right? so the players actually make this game excist.
because withoout players no money and without money no game.
So players make kingsisle money because they like the game, then why would they change something in that game that the players hate?
Can someone please explain this to me?

Defender
Sep 10, 2011
191
Malt22 on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
I am completely bamboozled by the wrong thinking going on in the PvP department. No matter how many times I reshuffle, I can still only play one card at a time. Some players will tell you that by making sun school enchanted spells and reshuffling only makes it harder to find the spell you want. Reshuffle was never the problem with long games, and was often the only solution to creating a winning strategy. You have completely eliminated a fast reshuffle strategy, and made it so the only viable strategy is to go all out offense and hope for the best. Also when I'm in second position I often find myself discarding heavily to survive the initial onslaught, knowing I can reshuffle later and work on a counterattack. Now discarding is a punishable offense and you shall play the cards given to you.

Until I understand the specifics of what you mean by "reshuffle is a one time use card," I'll just sit on the sidelines. Like someone said above, what if I have two reshuffles in my hand and I discard one? Later I reshuffle. Do I now have that discarded reshuffle in my hand or did I lose it forever when i discarded? You can discard treasure cards and have them reshuffle, so I really need to know if discarding a reshuffle loses it permanently.

The idea of turning a trained spell into a treasure card, yet allow me to keep it in my regular deck makes no sense
at all, and sets a dangerous precedent. What regular spell will you arbitrarily turn into a treasure card next? Guardian Spirit perhaps? Why not start allowing us to just place treasure cards in a our regular deck. Our regular deck is no longer for spells we have trained, with regards to reshuffle.

The reason for long PvP matches is high resistance and high health boost, not reshuffle. This change is not only going to change the nature of PvP, it's going to create even longer games. Imagine this. Both players have used up or discarded all their reshuffles and are down to just a few cards left. So now both players pass their turn endlessly, and the game can only end with someone fleeing or getting disconnected. Both players could go to bed and let the game pass turns back and forth for the next 3 days. You could wake up, have some breakfast, and check in on your game of "Pass Pass Pass".

How's this for my new balance strategy? I call it "You ain't seen tanking yet strategy" I'll carry 8 reshuffles, shields, heals, and 90% defensive spells. Eventually you are going to completely run of out of reshuffles. Once I know you are completely out of cards i'll feint feint hex shatter judgement. Please explain to us the logic behind this change because the way I see it, you have guaranteed even longer games.

At the very least reshuffle should reshuffle the reshuffle cards you have discarded.

I have enjoyed almost 5000 games in PvP 1v1. Maybe it's time to retire completely and let the new generation of no reshuffle decks have their chance at this game.
I don't PvP at all these days, but this argument is pretty convincing. PvE has no qualms with this change but like the initial scare on the permanent pixie spell in gardening which is pacified by an "all-plants like" red barn house, Im sure KI isn't finished with PvP yet. This is the new age of PvP anyway so its still walking precariously like a baby doing its first steps, slowly but surely.

I think enough of the complaints has been said and well pointed out already . Why not suggest things that will make the new reshuffling system work? Time limits in a session, a limit at the numbers of some/ALL cards that you can place in your deck or maybe a total ban on the jade set is in order. Forgive me for my ignorance, but I am curious with this development because I'm itching to be involved in PvP again after a long hibernation.

Survivor
Apr 01, 2009
36
PvP King on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
No, this DOES NOT make matches shorter, it makes them LONGER. People will have a pass off when they run out of cards, which can last forever, making matches longer than they were before. This addition to the game shouldn't effect pvp or pve, it ruins the game period.
Both Duelist and Central are reporting hours long duels that finally get stuck in a black hole of "endless passing". Long games are typically caused by even matches, especially in duels between skilled teams. This change to reshuffle did absolutely nothing to change this basic dynamic.

This whole irritation seems ineffective at achieving shorter games.

Explorer
Jul 14, 2010
76
KingsIsle, if this there is one thing I was always sure of, it was that PvEers would never agree with PvPers.

As I type this, I'm watching our community do something I've never seen: unanimously agree that your update, an update to lower PvP time, to make some new strategies come out, is one of the worst we've seen.

Listen to your player base here! WE DO NOT WANT! 90% of people in test realm disagreed with this. I was silent then. I'm not now. You are causing a passing game. We'll leave with one card in our decks, wait for the game to d/c us. Is that really want you want? A PvP entirely based on not getting d/ced is a great way to lose players. If you want to find out, be our guest.

Another bit: you're already ruining PvP. If you're going to do that, don't take PvE with it. The spell is not the problem. The matches are. If that's your case, the gear is the problem here. Don't nerf the spell a lot of us newbies payed crowns just to last long enough against the insanely powerful bosses you made. (Celestia and up, KI. That's when you began messing with everything. I've only soloed Trial once without reshuffle. If you have 4 you can do it without, no problem, but soloing is nearly impossible without reshuff.)

I'm no veteran. I'm a competent strategist, but I'm not breaking any records. But really, I know terrible when I see it. The community doesn't agree with you. We all agree to disagree with you. All of us, even the most disagreeable among us.

A wise man, when discussing MMOs, said this: "Devolopers can destroy their own game much better than any player ever could." And right now, I agree. I'll give you one update, KI. We all make mistakes. (Some much, much worse than others.) After that, you're going to need some serious reasoning to get out of this one.

We'll be waiting.

-Ronan TitanStalker

Defender
Jun 06, 2009
102
dayerider on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
has anybody actually tested to confirm this for PvE? I havent logged in yet for PvE tonight
I did, in Test Realm. Haven't used it in Live Realm yet.

In that testing:

1) Discarded Reshuffles reshuffled back into the deck, as one would expect.

2) Used Reshuffles did not reshuffle back into the deck, per the announcement.

And no word of explanation on any front I've seen from KI other than "it was never intended to permit an infinite deck".

I also note an absence of any option presented to refund the training point expended. For anyone who would actually wish to live without trained Reshuffle under these new rules, my advice is to enter a Support Request and be polite.

Before you try to "show KI" by demanding the Training Point back, however, you might want to cool your heels a bit. The change is not as drastic as it first seems. It negatively impacts a short deck strategy, and it negatively impacts an infinite-deck strategy. Normal, and apparently the originally intended, use of the Reshuffle card is largely unaffected. And KI knows it.

Strategies developed around the behavior of the Reshuffle card will need to be adjusted. They are not ruined, but they will need adjustment. KI knows this, as will anyone who calms down and actually uses the new Reshuffle. Whining won't win you any arguments here.

My advice is to adapt to your new world.

- Stephen Earthmender
Life Wizard, Pixie Realm