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Changes to Reshuffle Spell

AuthorMessage
Explorer
Jun 10, 2012
95
I don't PVP, so I can't comment on how it affects that.

But I have to disagree with those who claim this doesn't matter in PVE. If you solo, as I do, the long boss battles in some of the optional dungeons, the latter half of Avalon, and (especially) Azteca necessitate the use of Reshuffle, even with a big deck. I normally use a fully-loaded Clockwork Deck for boss battles, and have still had occasions where I have had to Reshuffle more than twice. I normally carry two Reshuffles (I never knew about "fast reshuffle"), and for my balance wizard can put up to 8 if I have to, but that takes up slots that should be used for the other spells I need to win. If the discarded Reshuffles come back, it's survivable, but still very unfair: the enemies already have endless decks, and this just makes things even more lopsided.

People have mentioned the compensation for pixies; maybe the compensation in PVE should be that the enemies have to Reshuffle just like we do. That, I could get behind.

Squire
Mar 07, 2011
523
Tabios on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
This is an update that should not have happened, it is unfair, when millions of wizards trained they trained it with the promise that "Reshuffle: Brings all cards back into the deck" not all cards minus the reshuffle not with reshuffle times one.
When I first began to PvP a couple years ago, the Reshuffle spell did not reshuffle itself. So you had to carry two reshuffles. After using the first reshuffle, the second reshuffle would reshuffle the first reshuffle. Then if you needed another reshuffle, the first reshuffle would reshuffle your second reshuffle. Thus making it so you always had one reshuffle in your deck.

It was such a silly notion that KI changed Reshuffle to reshuffle itself, thus saving us PvPers one extra card slot. This has been the state of Reshuffle in PvP for more than a year.

Now my trained spell, that cost me a training point, is nothing more than a glorified treasure card, promoted to the rank of being put in my regular deck. Whoopeee!

Are we having fun yet?

Survivor
Apr 13, 2012
8
Professor Greyrose on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
Reshuffle has changed. Each reshuffle card you have in your deck or sideboard can only be used once per duel and will not reshuffle itself back into your deck when cast. You can still continue to place multiple copies of Reshuffle into your deck as your deck allows, as well as multiple copies of Treasure Cards. Each Reshuffle can be used once per duel, but you will need to stock your deck with more than one, as once it's used a Reshuffle card does not return for that duel.

This applies to regular Reshuffle that you have trained, and Reshuffle cards that come on items and pets.
I myself, am kind of leaning toward the reshuffle as a good idea, but not too much because of the fact that I almost always forget to put it in anyway so,

Defender
Sep 10, 2011
191
prairiefalcon on Apr 26, 2013 wrote:
I don't PVP, so I can't comment on how it affects that.

But I have to disagree with those who claim this doesn't matter in PVE. If you solo, as I do, the long boss battles in some of the optional dungeons, the latter half of Avalon, and (especially) Azteca necessitate the use of Reshuffle, even with a big deck. I normally use a fully-loaded Clockwork Deck for boss battles, and have still had occasions where I have had to Reshuffle more than twice. I normally carry two Reshuffles (I never knew about "fast reshuffle"), and for my balance wizard can put up to 8 if I have to, but that takes up slots that should be used for the other spells I need to win. If the discarded Reshuffles come back, it's survivable, but still very unfair: the enemies already have endless decks, and this just makes things even more lopsided.

People have mentioned the compensation for pixies; maybe the compensation in PVE should be that the enemies have to Reshuffle just like we do. That, I could get behind.
In my case, I never trained reshuffle on any of my wizards. I did finished the game several times doing solo. But I only need 4 TC's in all of my sideboards. Honestly I barely use 2 reshuffles most of my battles. True, PvE enemies have endless turns , but they dont heal efficiently too, even life ones have paltry heals. Some adjustments might be in order with your deck strategy. Survivability in PvE doesn't rely on endless reshuffle but efficient deck management.

What I do understand is something must be done with players who lost a training point for it. Maybe even make trained reshuffle be used twice compared to TC ones.

Survivor
Jul 14, 2010
17
Monsoon Jo on Apr 27, 2013 wrote:
In my case, I never trained reshuffle on any of my wizards. I did finished the game several times doing solo. But I only need 4 TC's in all of my sideboards. Honestly I barely use 2 reshuffles most of my battles. True, PvE enemies have endless turns , but they dont heal efficiently too, even life ones have paltry heals. Some adjustments might be in order with your deck strategy. Survivability in PvE doesn't rely on endless reshuffle but efficient deck management.

What I do understand is something must be done with players who lost a training point for it. Maybe even make trained reshuffle be used twice compared to TC ones.
Also let's not forget that people spent a training point on a "one-off" that cost 4 pips, yet we can buy a "one-off" that only cost 3 pips!

Complete robbery of a training point. KI says reshuffle was never meant to be what it was? Why not? We spent the training point so we wouldn't have to buy tc reshuffle! Having it the way it was was worth the extra pip and the cost of the training point!

What a horrible update :( This is a very sad day for wizards across the spiral.

A+ Student
Jan 11, 2012
1658
Monsoon Jo on Apr 27, 2013 wrote:
In my case, I never trained reshuffle on any of my wizards. I did finished the game several times doing solo. But I only need 4 TC's in all of my sideboards. Honestly I barely use 2 reshuffles most of my battles. True, PvE enemies have endless turns , but they dont heal efficiently too, even life ones have paltry heals. Some adjustments might be in order with your deck strategy. Survivability in PvE doesn't rely on endless reshuffle but efficient deck management.

What I do understand is something must be done with players who lost a training point for it. Maybe even make trained reshuffle be used twice compared to TC ones.
You're not the first to say this, so let me pose the question in general for PvE:

What's wrong with only carrying what you KNOW you can use, so it'll come up when you need it, and then reshuffling to get it all back again. it SEEMS like we're being punished in PvE because we found a way to as quickly as we can, overcome what KI has put in place to make things extremely difficult. So what's wrong with carrying 7 cards in our decks and constantly reshuffling and bringing them all back?

If anything, when you use a reshuffle, it should not reshuffle that one instance of it, because it hasnt been used, but every other reshuffle SHOULD come back. So what if it was changed to do that; reshuffle all but the reshuffle you're engaging?

A+ Student
Jan 11, 2012
1658
And no word of explanation on any front I've seen from KI other than "it was never intended to permit an infinite deck".

So, if that is the case, it seems like they got mad at us for finding a way to cancel out the unlimited decks that monsters have. I can't help thinking that they think it's fair to have PvE-ers unbalanced by all the ways things are stacked against us. I have hit a complete wall in Avalon, no way to get past a monster. i've been trying to get some help, however, people are busy helping others, which is fine, but now I'm stuck, without relief, in Avalon. The Rehsuffle concept has helped me, but I still haven't beaten this boss monster (which is what, the 600th in avalon?). Why should we be punished for playing within the rules, by the rules, and having a sound strategy? This is what I feel is happening. It SEEMS like they got upset that we played by their rules, figured out a way to win, and then they said, "Nope, they cant do that".

For those who say, "Design a better deck", I'll say this:

Kewl, no problem, I'm a level 81 Fire Wizard with every spell up to Avalon. How should I redesign my deck? If all you're going to say is "design a better deck" and yet offer zero help on how to do it, then just stop saying it, because it's not helpful.

I wish KI would explain why this was a necessary change for PvE, and why, if they're trying to fix PvP, why they either have the card act one way in PvP (where apparently it's a problem) and another way in PvE (where it's not a problem). SOME input other than the stock answer would be nice, but I wont turn blue holding my breath

Survivor
Jan 07, 2010
6
This reshuffle update should be changed back to normal. It needs to be changed because people will be sitting there with one card on both sides passing for an hour until someone decides to give up the passing duel, after they've used all their reshuffles. Change it back OR make a new update to where you can have a draw button. The draw button would let players both confirm they want a draw, and both their stats would not be affected. This would be great for when players have one or two cards left after all their reshuffles so they don't have to sit there. Maybe allow a small amount of tickets so all the battling done doesn't go to waste.

Survivor
Feb 01, 2013
7
If it takes you that long to defeat someone in a pvp match to the point where you need a bunch of reshuffles. Then Idk. You should work on your strategy or getting better gear. Thats my opinion

Survivor
Feb 01, 2013
7
All this complaining just makes me laugh a little. I went against the Jade armor type. Yeah its harder than all my other battles. So Thats when my nice spell building deck and strategy take in affect. Oh you wanna heal like that? Nice let me drop you a doom and gloom. Still got that mass healing huh? let me spam some minus healing for a couple of rounds. Oh you got that resist huh? Let me use a Infallible TC to get by some of that. Oh your still alive But almost defeated huh? let me use this reshuffle and BE BOSS. Nice fight.

Please stop complaining and Learn some real skills and the Real Meaning of PVP instead of spamming reshuffles.

I love this update. Keep it up KI

Defender
Mar 07, 2009
109
I dont see a problem with this. You use the reshuffle card, it is gone during that duel, like any other card that is played...

Defender
Sep 10, 2011
191
PaulBofEL said:

Complete robbery of a training point. KI says reshuffle was never meant to be what it was? Why not? We spent the training point so we wouldn't have to buy tc reshuffle! Having it the way it was was worth the extra pip and the cost of the training point!

At central, someone e-mailed W101 support about this training point and apparently got it back. try doing the same thing.

dayerider said:

"Kewl, no problem, I'm a level 81 Fire Wizard with every spell up to Avalon. How should I redesign my deck? If all you're going to say is "design a better deck" and yet offer zero help on how to do it, then just stop saying it, because it's not helpful.

try reading the part about decks: https://www.wizard101.com/forum/azteca/promethean-now-feedbacks-please-8ad6a41c3afe62ca013b1a1d593f63ae

I dont know how much more spoonfeeding you need but your "stock" complaining isn't helping anyone here either.

Survivor
Apr 01, 2009
36
Malt22 on Apr 26, 2013 wrote:
When I first began to PvP a couple years ago, the Reshuffle spell did not reshuffle itself. So you had to carry two reshuffles. After using the first reshuffle, the second reshuffle would reshuffle the first reshuffle. Then if you needed another reshuffle, the first reshuffle would reshuffle your second reshuffle. Thus making it so you always had one reshuffle in your deck.

It was such a silly notion that KI changed Reshuffle to reshuffle itself, thus saving us PvPers one extra card slot. This has been the state of Reshuffle in PvP for more than a year.

Now my trained spell, that cost me a training point, is nothing more than a glorified treasure card, promoted to the rank of being put in my regular deck. Whoopeee!

Are we having fun yet?
I think the most damaging thing this change to reshuffle did was to the actual paying customer relationship. The change was unasked for, unexplained, and rejected by the testing public. Whoever it was that "interpreted" all the negative feedback into "yea, go ahead." has an amazingly "tin" ear for actual customer sentiment.

Frankly, this unasked for change caused an otherwise great update to fall flat emotionally. Reshuffle should be changed back as soon as possible.

Survivor
Jun 07, 2010
4
Maya Goldenheart on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
As far as pve, this is a change that makes no sense as far as I'm concerned. It's logical that a reshuffle card "reshuffles" your entire deck instead of canceling itself out--especially when you've used up a point to train that skill. This seems once again like a pvp complaint resolution affecting all players.

I don't pvp--it's the area of the game that I am least interested in. Yet, whenever there is a problem relative to what players who pvp are griping about, the solution ruins something for players who were happy with the game the way it was. I enjoy this game. If KI would just consider the satisfaction of pve players (more often) when they make changes I'd really appreciate it.
I'd like to clear this up, if I could.

This was not a pvp complaint resolution. I want to stress that no one complained about reshuffle. I know it may feel like we "ruined something else", but trust me when I say that the PvP community is as surprised as you are at the change, because reshuffle was not something that any of us considered a problem in its previous forms.

I just do not want undue blame to be placed on the pvp community for something we feel the same as you do about. We sincerely don't understand it either.

Defender
Aug 01, 2011
186
LivingEveryLie13 on Apr 28, 2013 wrote:
All this complaining just makes me laugh a little. I went against the Jade armor type. Yeah its harder than all my other battles. So Thats when my nice spell building deck and strategy take in affect. Oh you wanna heal like that? Nice let me drop you a doom and gloom. Still got that mass healing huh? let me spam some minus healing for a couple of rounds. Oh you got that resist huh? Let me use a Infallible TC to get by some of that. Oh your still alive But almost defeated huh? let me use this reshuffle and BE BOSS. Nice fight.

Please stop complaining and Learn some real skills and the Real Meaning of PVP instead of spamming reshuffles.

I love this update. Keep it up KI
How about PVE? We are all gonna need those extra heals from life people. Lets just run out of spells and lose if its a long boss fight! Why are you telling us to learn the real meaning of PVP? We all have strategies. Also what do you mean by ''Real Skills?''

Explorer
Jun 10, 2012
95
Monsoon Jo on Apr 27, 2013 wrote:
In my case, I never trained reshuffle on any of my wizards. I did finished the game several times doing solo. But I only need 4 TC's in all of my sideboards. Honestly I barely use 2 reshuffles most of my battles. True, PvE enemies have endless turns , but they dont heal efficiently too, even life ones have paltry heals. Some adjustments might be in order with your deck strategy. Survivability in PvE doesn't rely on endless reshuffle but efficient deck management.

What I do understand is something must be done with players who lost a training point for it. Maybe even make trained reshuffle be used twice compared to TC ones.
You've proven my point: I did train Reshuffle, and have never needed to carry more than two in my deck because ones that were used were always brought back with the next Reshuffle. Now I will need to carry at least four for boss battles that I expect to be long, maybe even five just to be safe. I probably won't use them often at all, but I will have to put them in just in case, and that means deciding which two or three cards I won't carry any more.

Will I adjust? Sure. Should I have to? No.

Considering I have soloed most things, including the Jabberwock (who was one of the few bosses where I have needed to Reshuffle more than twice) and recently got my level 88 spell on just two tries, well, I think my deck strategy has been working just fine, and I'd rather not be forced to change it. And as for the enemies' heals being "paltry," either you and I have been fighting different enemies, or we have radically different definitions of "paltry." I have faced enemies who use Rebirth, and Regenerate, and Dryad, sometimes more than once in a single battle, and even the balance mobs I faced the other day were casting Availing Hands. When someone gets back 1000+ points of health, I don't call that paltry, and it definitely does make the battle longer.

Survivor
Jan 03, 2011
14
Just to add to all the downsides about this nerf, try fighting a jade team. Those matches are never quick, and you usually need to reshuffle 6-8 times before you finally get the kill, mainly looking for doom and infect. this reshuffle update was just a bad idea. Restating a good statement i saw earlier. When placed second, which i seem to be every match, you discard everything looking for shields and heals until you get a chance to land a good hit, buy by then youre already out of hits, (discarded) and need a reshuffle. Carrying 5-6 reshuffle a game is annoying as heck. a size of 64 deck is way to small for all the spells given out, usually have to cut out something you need. and making reshuffle tc, i wasted a training point. i can now just put in 3 pip shuffle in side, and make room for shields. wanna pay for 8million players point buyback? Some magus pvp'ers dont have the tp for shuffle, and before used the azure dragon. now one reshuffle just isnt enough. All you saying, oh use strategy or get better gear. Duplicating with reshuffle and cloak is strategy, and allows you to make extra shields, helpful when going second. Useless strategy now. So that means everyone should resort to puppeting and bolt spamming. Gl guys!!

Defender
Apr 07, 2011
156
I don't see this "Reshuffle scandal" as a major issue. As someone (ty Stephen) pointed before, discarded reshuffles will be returned to your deck after you use one. If you don't believe just add 2 reshuffles to your main deck, then go to unicorn way and test it yourself. Discard one of them, use the other one, then see what happens. It will take 2 minutes.

In pvp i can only see an advantage of this update. Let me explain:

Until the update i only had one reshuffle in my deck. That meant if that one card came into my hand at the first round i couldn't discard it and had to keep in hand till i finally used it up. Every schools has some spells that are preferred always kept in hand to give the possibility of a quick reaction (Triage, Supernova, etc). This kind of "standby card holding" makes your deck and discarding strategy slower.

With this update you are forced to go with minimum 3 reshuffles in your main deck and that means you can discard two of them on your first "discard phase", then one of them in your second. If you expect longer matches just add more copies of R.

Well okay, this isn't really an advantage, its just a different discarding strategy that you were able to use even before the update, but now this is the only way to use R correctly.

IMO this update doesn't change anything in PVP, and i am really surprised about the reaction of the pvp community.

Tristan Dreamcrafter 1st age PvP Warlord

Defender
Sep 10, 2011
191
dayerider on Apr 27, 2013 wrote:
You're not the first to say this, so let me pose the question in general for PvE:

What's wrong with only carrying what you KNOW you can use, so it'll come up when you need it, and then reshuffling to get it all back again. it SEEMS like we're being punished in PvE because we found a way to as quickly as we can, overcome what KI has put in place to make things extremely difficult. So what's wrong with carrying 7 cards in our decks and constantly reshuffling and bringing them all back?

If anything, when you use a reshuffle, it should not reshuffle that one instance of it, because it hasnt been used, but every other reshuffle SHOULD come back. So what if it was changed to do that; reshuffle all but the reshuffle you're engaging?
let me ask you this, exactly which enemy needs endless reshuffle to beat?

Spamming 7 cards using reshuffle is one of many ways to make a deck. Its no wonder you are stuck in Avalon. W101 is never meant to be a one-deck beats all type of game. If KI says it was never meant to permit infinite decks, so be it. No further explanations needed, rules has changed. Learn to adapt.

Defender
Jan 20, 2010
108
LivingEveryLie13 on Apr 28, 2013 wrote:
All this complaining just makes me laugh a little. I went against the Jade armor type. Yeah its harder than all my other battles. So Thats when my nice spell building deck and strategy take in affect. Oh you wanna heal like that? Nice let me drop you a doom and gloom. Still got that mass healing huh? let me spam some minus healing for a couple of rounds. Oh you got that resist huh? Let me use a Infallible TC to get by some of that. Oh your still alive But almost defeated huh? let me use this reshuffle and BE BOSS. Nice fight.

Please stop complaining and Learn some real skills and the Real Meaning of PVP instead of spamming reshuffles.

I love this update. Keep it up KI
Spoken like someone who doesn't know how pierce works, and hasn't seen the turtle strategy fully played to the hilt.

A true turtle will have jade gear, and a pet with Spell Proof, Spell Defying, Spritely, Faery Friend, and either Fearless Fortifier, or Marvelous Mender. They Have 80%+ resist across the board; a pet that will strip off most of the hanging heal debuff spells; and a deck packed with heals, shields, and absorbs, with a sideboard of 30+ reshuffle TC's.

When you build up, and go for your strike, hey have a shield in the way, your Infallible + Extraordinary is used up by that shield, and none of it makes it to the 80% resist of the gear underneath. So unless you're a storm mage bringing in enough buildup to pull off your One in a Billion badge, you simply will not win.

Defender
Sep 10, 2011
191
prairiefalcon on Apr 29, 2013 wrote:
You've proven my point: I did train Reshuffle, and have never needed to carry more than two in my deck because ones that were used were always brought back with the next Reshuffle. Now I will need to carry at least four for boss battles that I expect to be long, maybe even five just to be safe. I probably won't use them often at all, but I will have to put them in just in case, and that means deciding which two or three cards I won't carry any more.

Will I adjust? Sure. Should I have to? No.

Considering I have soloed most things, including the Jabberwock (who was one of the few bosses where I have needed to Reshuffle more than twice) and recently got my level 88 spell on just two tries, well, I think my deck strategy has been working just fine, and I'd rather not be forced to change it. And as for the enemies' heals being "paltry," either you and I have been fighting different enemies, or we have radically different definitions of "paltry." I have faced enemies who use Rebirth, and Regenerate, and Dryad, sometimes more than once in a single battle, and even the balance mobs I faced the other day were casting Availing Hands. When someone gets back 1000+ points of health, I don't call that paltry, and it definitely does make the battle longer.
So when an enemy heals a thousand points, you can't beat it anymore because you have limited reshuffle? Still, How often do you see this happen? I faced life enemies healing more than that and still end up overpowering them. I also soloed Jabberwock and used a single TC Reshuffle to finish him off (only 4 reshuffles in the sideboard). The pressure of making room for trained 4 or 5 reshuffle cards in your main deck can avoided by simply placing TC cards in your sideboard.

Adherent
Feb 07, 2011
2915
and again, ki refuses to acknowledge their community's concerns.

the changes to reshuffle should have been made for pvp only or not at all. now, all of my non-balance wizards will have to stack their decks with it, which is a waste of both pips and space that would be much better allocated elsewhere.

i'm absolutely dreading xibalba as it is. my level 90 necromancer will be the first one in, and he won't stand a chance, given that he has to waste valuable pips and deck space on 5 copies of something he can only use once. and what if all 5 copies come up in the same hand and i have to discard 4 of them to get to his attack spells? where does that leave us then, ki?

extremely disappointed in this arbitrary and poorly-conceived decision;
perhaps august will be the end of von's wizarding adventures after all.

-v.

Explorer
Jun 10, 2012
95
dayerider on Apr 27, 2013 wrote:
You're not the first to say this, so let me pose the question in general for PvE:

What's wrong with only carrying what you KNOW you can use, so it'll come up when you need it, and then reshuffling to get it all back again. it SEEMS like we're being punished in PvE because we found a way to as quickly as we can, overcome what KI has put in place to make things extremely difficult. So what's wrong with carrying 7 cards in our decks and constantly reshuffling and bringing them all back?

If anything, when you use a reshuffle, it should not reshuffle that one instance of it, because it hasnt been used, but every other reshuffle SHOULD come back. So what if it was changed to do that; reshuffle all but the reshuffle you're engaging?
That's how I always thought it did work, so I'd be perfectly fine with that.

As for the "infinite deck strategy" that some people are accusing us of relying on, there is no such thing. Reshuffle costs four pips, and eventually you will run out of mana, and in PVE, get killed by an enemy who has both an infinite deck and infinite mana. Players have never had infinite decks.

Explorer
Aug 23, 2012
84
crunkatog on Apr 24, 2013 wrote:
I suppose this was a long time coming... as soon as I saw W101 taking a long time to CRC check this morning, I knew its day had arrived.

Seems like a lot of folks will have strong feelings about this, one way or the other. It's a reasonable change, but probably one that needed to be applied to PVP only, and not so much to questing.

As far as PVP goes, it can shorten some otherwise interminable games.

It's still a useful spell for questing, especially for testing new combos and team strategies. It should not be use-restricted in questing; the potential for abuse (is that even a thing in cooperative play?) is pretty low.
It wont shorten anything, people will just keep passing now.

A+ Student
Jan 11, 2012
1658
Monsoon Jo on Apr 30, 2013 wrote:
let me ask you this, exactly which enemy needs endless reshuffle to beat?

Spamming 7 cards using reshuffle is one of many ways to make a deck. Its no wonder you are stuck in Avalon. W101 is never meant to be a one-deck beats all type of game. If KI says it was never meant to permit infinite decks, so be it. No further explanations needed, rules has changed. Learn to adapt.
Yes, it is only one way, and I've tried a few others to no avail. So, in line of your adapting comment, what kind of advice are you planning on giving me to help me learn to adapt? Telling me to "fix your deck and you'll win more" without offering any tips results in no better deck building ability on my part since I have no new information.