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Christopher Life H... on Aug 12, 2013 wrote:

It makes me sick to know that these bosses are saying this and it like creeps me out to know that all the bosses before Azteca were not that you know violent in words

Christopher Life Heart

Actually the bosses in Avalon had some pretty gruesome things to say as well. here are two I remember off the top of my head "Who are you? Prepare to have your flesh torn, vermin!" and Soon your blood-splattered garb will hang from my walls!" So as you can see the real increase in the intensity of their speech actually started in Avalon

Sincerely, Spectral Evidence

Soooo....I'm guessing we all just threw the "crude humor" sign on the Wizard101's E10+ rating out the door then -_-. I dunno. I don't think it's really that bad, but that's just me. I think it's fine and just shows a darker tone to this Arc. What else do you expect from Zombies, Fierce Warriors, and dark adversaries? And it's also not like blood and guts are actually being shown anywhere in the game. I like how it's showing a dark, fierce attitude to the characters without giving them a very un-family-friendly appearance.

I totally agree. It is in bad taste. It is not appropriate to this game. But then, all of AZ is not really appropriate to the game. It lost the focus and the charm of the beginning. How to we get from the wonder and delight of Wizard City, to this dark an mean Azteca? It is not necessary, and it is a betrayal of the promise of this supposedly family-friendly kid-oriented game.

FinnAgainWindrider on Sep 10, 2013 wrote:

I totally agree. It is in bad taste. It is not appropriate to this game. But then, all of AZ is not really appropriate to the game. It lost the focus and the charm of the beginning. How to we get from the wonder and delight of Wizard City, to this dark an mean Azteca? It is not necessary, and it is a betrayal of the promise of this supposedly family-friendly kid-oriented game.

Going from Wizard City to Azteca is over 10 worlds. I would think that is enough time to take a gradual side of things to progress from light to dark. It's not like a slap in your face when you join. There have been plenty of kid-oriented shows that had a light feeling in the beginng only to take a dark tone near the end. Wizard101 is no different.
As someone pointed out, "dark" lines came in around Avalon so one could assume it was going to progress darker. And with the obvious inability to stop Xibalba from hitting Azteca, it's dark story was already sealed. Also the story is still incomplete so things might lighten up. To me, Azteca is like the sacrifice point of a story that really kick-starts the protagonist to stop evil. Also how is Azteca not appropriate to the game as a whole?

While we're on the topic, what about Dragonspyre? How do you go from a wonder and delight of Wizard City, to an apocolyptic, ghost haunted, half-burnt Dragonspyre? Is that not dark as well?

Cunning Finnigan S... on Sep 10, 2013 wrote:

Going from Wizard City to Azteca is over 10 worlds. I would think that is enough time to take a gradual side of things to progress from light to dark. It's not like a slap in your face when you join. There have been plenty of kid-oriented shows that had a light feeling in the beginng only to take a dark tone near the end. Wizard101 is no different.
As someone pointed out, "dark" lines came in around Avalon so one could assume it was going to progress darker. And with the obvious inability to stop Xibalba from hitting Azteca, it's dark story was already sealed. Also the story is still incomplete so things might lighten up. To me, Azteca is like the sacrifice point of a story that really kick-starts the protagonist to stop evil. Also how is Azteca not appropriate to the game as a whole?

While we're on the topic, what about Dragonspyre? How do you go from a wonder and delight of Wizard City, to an apocolyptic, ghost haunted, half-burnt Dragonspyre? Is that not dark as well?

There is certainly time to move from light to dark (though I would not call that "progress") in the course of 10 worlds. I just don't think there is value in making that move.

There is also in that move a fundamental betrayal of the promise of a family-oriented game, which is present in all of the KI promotion about Wizard101. This game is intended for an audience that begins at a very young age. Therefore the content should be appropriate to that audience, regardless of what world a player is in.

I agree that Dragonspyre was dark -- but not too dark. DS had a level of darkness that is found in a lot of very appropriate children's literature also. DS had some creepy bad guys (like the bad teacher guy locked up in the labyrinth), but their dialogue was not so downright disturbing. I personally do not like DS that much, because it felt darker, but it fit with the storyline of the first arc -- and that storyline ended with a hint of promise of redemption for Malistaire too.

However, they took that hint and ruined it in the second arc. In my opinion the whole Xibalba storyline is not only unnecessary, it is going in a wrong direction. It is a misguided move, taking Wizard101 away from the delightful, magical, family game it was founded to be, and moving it toward other more mature RPG venues. But that move loses what is special in Wizard101, and dumps this wonderful game into a heap with all the other RPG's out there. Not that those games are bad for what they are -- but let them be their own thing, and let Wizard101 retain the spark of delight it started out with!

FinnAgainWindrider on Sep 11, 2013 wrote:

There is certainly time to move from light to dark (though I would not call that "progress") in the course of 10 worlds. I just don't think there is value in making that move.

There is also in that move a fundamental betrayal of the promise of a family-oriented game, which is present in all of the KI promotion about Wizard101. This game is intended for an audience that begins at a very young age. Therefore the content should be appropriate to that audience, regardless of what world a player is in.

I agree that Dragonspyre was dark -- but not too dark. DS had a level of darkness that is found in a lot of very appropriate children's literature also. DS had some creepy bad guys (like the bad teacher guy locked up in the labyrinth), but their dialogue was not so downright disturbing. I personally do not like DS that much, because it felt darker, but it fit with the storyline of the first arc -- and that storyline ended with a hint of promise of redemption for Malistaire too.

However, they took that hint and ruined it in the second arc. In my opinion the whole Xibalba storyline is not only unnecessary, it is going in a wrong direction. It is a misguided move, taking Wizard101 away from the delightful, magical, family game it was founded to be, and moving it toward other more mature RPG venues. But that move loses what is special in Wizard101, and dumps this wonderful game into a heap with all the other RPG's out there. Not that those games are bad for what they are -- but let them be their own thing, and let Wizard101 retain the spark of delight it started out with!

I also want to say, Wizard101 was founded by J. Todd Coleman and Josef Hall in order to make a fantasy MMO that breaks away from the current games, and simultaneously create for Families, and make a game where they could play such an MMO RPG, but with their kids as well. That's something you probably know already.

I don't believe KI is trying to break away from that at all. Since Josef Hall still works at the company and is the co-founder, there's little reason to doubt that he or his employee's would allow anything to get to a point where it is not kid-friendly. But I would believe that one can still play a dark story and be ok for kids.

If you haven't already, I would recommend you read books like "Witch and Wizard" series by James Patterson and "The 13th Reality" series by James Dashner or watching animated series like "Avatar: The Last Airbender", "W.I.T.C.H." "Wakfu" or "Legend of Korra". If you look into them, they are all targeted toward young audiences and have more magical influences like Wizard101, and at the same time at certain points they take a dark turn (certainly nowhere near the beginning but definitely dwell closer toward the end of all series). If that is the case, Wizard101 can at least play with it. None of these series devastate their promise of targeting young audience, attract some older audiences, and still have dark points. Why can't Wizard101 do this and still be successful? Same for Pirate101 and all KI games?

"Wizard101 away from the delightful, magical, family game it was founded to be..."

I don't like how there is this close-minded view point that Wizard101 can only be this one way and that magic is only flighty and whisical and any other form of it is "lost." I don't advocate that Wizard101 become some glorified, blood-and-guts Teen-rated game. Absolutely NOT. But I don't believe Wizard101 needs to be classified as 100% flighty-whismy all the time. Magic to me has no set form or shape. It's like gas, shapeless. And can waver like steam or intensfy like thunder. I don't think it's fair to look at it only on one side than consider possiblities.

Wizard101 no longer entertains just children. It's for the whole family as well as older people and people without families. I think it naturally just left that genre and went off to be a game for anyone who is interested. In that case, KI needs to be able to add variety and give enough to as many players as possible. For 9/12 worlds, KI has played it safe on being extremely close to kid-friendly. This is not bad at all! But with this diverse game, you should consider showing some things other than the norm while keeping in the kid-friendly zone. Avalon, Azteca, and Aquila are the only worlds in the entire game to feature dark/odd lines and even then that's at a minimum. You find more funny, less than dark lines than you do what we're talking about. I don't think at breaks the "promise" of family-friendly if you're going to fine more kid-friendly content.

Cunning Finnigan S... on Sep 12, 2013 wrote:

Now hold on, how can you say Xibalba is unnecessary to Wizard101? Did you perhaps happen to work with the writers and had input on what to place in the game? And even if you did or didn't, there is a first time for everything, correct? Or am I mistaken? How can KI know not to do this again or at least try this if they don't take a risk?

I don't think KI ruined it. I think that's just more of how you feel. I have noticed KI is leading into some darker stories in both Wizard101 and Pirate101, but that does not mean they are going to go willy-nilly with it or not have a light at the end of the tunnel.

"In my opinion the whole Xibalba storyline is not only unnecessary, it is going in a wrong direction. It is a misguided move, taking Wizard101 away from the delightful, magical, family game it was founded to be, and moving it toward other more mature RPG venues."

(heavy sigh). This seriously kills me about this community when it comes to Azteca. I feel players don't see what is to come and see a light at the end of the tunnel. Yes, Azteca's story is dark, but that doesn't mean it is without a bright side (things I believe players completely belayed just to over exaggerate the negative's of Azteca and destroy any positives of the world). I've found plenty of sections of Azteca's dialogue from bosses as well as story where it seems the good lines outway the bad ones.
For example, in Tierra de Brea, the two Aztecosaur siblings bickered over who should control the other mine after their father died. Later we found out that the will of their father left the sides of the mine to the sibling who wanted it. I found that humorous in a misundersanding. Or how the 2 bosses who tried to capture Lady Zenzen argued who failed this. Or how in Twin Giants a boss references those typical workers who want a promotion which I found funny. I think too many people got hung up over the challenge and these few "bad lines" to realize this.

I also feel like you and many others do not see nor do you believe there is a light at the end of this story. That's going to end darkly and completely undermine what Wizard101 stands for. If you stand back and look at how the story flows, Azteca is designed as a sacficial point in the story. You want to avoid giving the main character everything they want as it makes a boring story. Azteca was the failure on the Wizards part and boosts the momentum to defeat evil. How I see it, the community looks at it as this terrible even and tricks themselves into believe Wizard101 is this now. No. It's that one moment in the story where it's like the main character's best ally sacrifices themself to give way for the protagonist to fight another day. This makes dramatic and epic scenes in a story. It also breaks a little bit of the common ground of Wizard101 without destroying it.

Thanks a lot for all your thoughtful input.

I recognize that in many stories, including those for children, there are characters who are sacrificed or tragedies that occur to spur a story on. Some of them are quite good. I have read a lot of fantasy books in the course of my life, those aimed at younger audiences, and those aimed at adults. These things can make for a good read, and can be used for great literary and even educational effect.

But the particular turn in Azteca, both in this kind of dialogue, and in the kind of fights and the length of dungeons, and all of that, is killing the game for a lot of players. I speak as a parent of a daughter, a daughter who got me to play this game to begin with, but who now rarely plays because it is no longer fun for her. It does not add any value to her day to get stuck in long battles. She does not find this darker harder turn to the game any fun at all.

I speak also as someone who has enjoyed the game a great deal, precisely because it was lighter, more cheerful, and brought a spark of overall fun and happiness to my day. The real world itself is dark enough, without making family games dark as well. If I want sacrificial challenges, I can turn on the news or try to lobby my politicians to do something good for the world (and I do those things as well). But as a parent, if I want to spend some quality time gaming with my child, it is neither fun nor desired to deal with bosses who say disturbing things, battles or dungeons that take ridiculous amounts of repetition or several hours to complete, or world cataclysm.

I suspect KI does have a light planned for the eventual end of this arc of the Wizard101 story. But whether or not they do have that light planned, this particular world just went too far in the wrong direction. There were some parts still that were funny -- the ones you mentioned are good examples, and I also found the Conquistador monkeys had some humor to them. But on the whole, the tone of the world, the tone of some of the dialogue (which is the theme of this thread, and which I admit I have overstepped already), the excessively difficult and unrewarding crafting, the tediously unbalanced nature of the fights, and the length of time it takes to accomplish anything -- all of this adds up to a world and a gaming experience that is just not fun or appropriate for younger kids. It is also not fun or appropriate for many of us who are parents of the kids, and who just want to be able to relax and enjoy some time playing a family-friendly kind of game.

I appreciate you standing up for KI, and for the art of dramatic storytelling. Perhaps the arc as a whole might work as a series of young people's literature. But as a family gaming experience, this arc in general, and Azteca in particular, do not live up to the quality of the first arc. KI set high standards in the first arc. I just want those standards to be met in every world.

FinnAgainWindrider on Sep 12, 2013 wrote:

Thanks a lot for all your thoughtful input.

I recognize that in many stories, including those for children, there are characters who are sacrificed or tragedies that occur to spur a story on. Some of them are quite good. I have read a lot of fantasy books in the course of my life, those aimed at younger audiences, and those aimed at adults. These things can make for a good read, and can be used for great literary and even educational effect.

But the particular turn in Azteca, both in this kind of dialogue, and in the kind of fights and the length of dungeons, and all of that, is killing the game for a lot of players. I speak as a parent of a daughter, a daughter who got me to play this game to begin with, but who now rarely plays because it is no longer fun for her. It does not add any value to her day to get stuck in long battles. She does not find this darker harder turn to the game any fun at all.

I speak also as someone who has enjoyed the game a great deal, precisely because it was lighter, more cheerful, and brought a spark of overall fun and happiness to my day. The real world itself is dark enough, without making family games dark as well. If I want sacrificial challenges, I can turn on the news or try to lobby my politicians to do something good for the world (and I do those things as well). But as a parent, if I want to spend some quality time gaming with my child, it is neither fun nor desired to deal with bosses who say disturbing things, battles or dungeons that take ridiculous amounts of repetition or several hours to complete, or world cataclysm.

I suspect KI does have a light planned for the eventual end of this arc of the Wizard101 story. But whether or not they do have that light planned, this particular world just went too far in the wrong direction. There were some parts still that were funny -- the ones you mentioned are good examples, and I also found the Conquistador monkeys had some humor to them. But on the whole, the tone of the world, the tone of some of the dialogue (which is the theme of this thread, and which I admit I have overstepped already), the excessively difficult and unrewarding crafting, the tediously unbalanced nature of the fights, and the length of time it takes to accomplish anything -- all of this adds up to a world and a gaming experience that is just not fun or appropriate for younger kids. It is also not fun or appropriate for many of us who are parents of the kids, and who just want to be able to relax and enjoy some time playing a family-friendly kind of game.

I appreciate you standing up for KI, and for the art of dramatic storytelling. Perhaps the arc as a whole might work as a series of young people's literature. But as a family gaming experience, this arc in general, and Azteca in particular, do not live up to the quality of the first arc. KI set high standards in the first arc. I just want those standards to be met in every world.

I can respect your view point. For a moment, I didn't know if you have read or scene aspects of dark/tradgic stories. I was also unaware if you were a parent or not. Like I said, we have a very diverse community. I constantly fool myself into believing its a majority of younger people. Wizard101 has a way of just doing that. I've enjoyed the past 4-5 years of gaming I've played this game. Their hasn't been a moment where the play has wavered. I've grown up with this game. Both of my siblings think the same way.
My brother is the one I have to thank for getting me into Wizard101. We both still play Wizard101 as well as Pirate101 and temendously love both games. I like the story of Wizard101 and I like how KI is able to write and protray a strong story with balance of dark and light. At an early start, I was devoted to the story so much I would never allow challenge to stand in my way of finishing the story. This is just how I feel and I realize not everyone has that kind of devotion or time to put in a game.

As a younger person, I'm attracted to stories that can balance dark and light very well without being just one side. Too much light makes a story incredibly unrealistic, overly sweet, and wouldn't attract as many players. Too dark can be very off-putting, down-right disturbing, and a complete turn off for many. If someone can play both sides very well, I'm hooked on their tale. But I can understand that while I may like this story as a young person, and it could certainly work for that audience, it's not entirely ideal for a more family setting.

When it comes to Azteca, a 45 minute-hour boss fight or 10-15 minute mob fight is managable for me as I like long duels. But I understand that not everyone is attracted to this battle play. I don't think we can get around long battles. We can delay them all we want, but at some point Wizard101 would see long battles if you look at the progression of the first arc. Battles in Marleybone are nearly 3 times as long as the ones in Wizard City. I don't think we can do anything about Azteca's repititive story set up. While KI has removed quests before, I don't think they are open redoing a worlds arc. While I'm hesitant to admit it, if it goes toward the greater-good (as in more players in and enjoying Azteca), I'd support some re-scripting of some bosses. The most that can be done about Azteca is reworking the difficulty of the world (as well as the whole arc, which I pose an idea on this thread https://www.wizard101.com/forum/the-dorms/all-i-feel-the-2nd-arc-needs-8ad6a41640c928330140daec8a6c49dd ) to ensure shorter battles and a gradual climb to what we see now. Some health reworking may also help and making crafting quests a little easier. I'm hoping KI has planned some changes to Azteca in their next major update this Nov./Dec. over the last year after all the feedback on the world.

Haha yeah some are pretty disturbing but yesterday I beat a death boss in tiera de brea and his death speech was... Maybe I should of just brushed and flossed... it almost had me on the floor laughing

level 89

daviddeathw101 on Aug 7, 2013 wrote:

that is how w101 gets past being not kid-friendly. the higher lvl you are, the less likely that you are actually a kid. therefore, precautions made to avoid violence and other inappropriate content are decreased. i actually approve of this kind of game design because by lvl 90, this game basically becomes a better version of other games similar to w101. it is definitely worth the few kids that understand what the game is hinting at. that is one of the biggest reasons that i enjoy w101. btw you also kinda get that this game is for older people if you look at discussions related to references the game makes throughout the story line.

seriously? you think an 11 year old cannot beat the game just as fast as a 23 year old? if this is how they're lasting they can just stop claiming family friendly. younger gamers have higher chance of knowing more about newer technology

How about the line said by the cold fire dragon at the end of the winterbane hall?
"May your bones split, your guts burst, and your tower burn to ash".
Talk about a major taunt XD