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Headless Horseman Spell

AuthorMessage
Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
Patrick Ravenbane on Sep 19, 2017 wrote:
I looked up "Headless Horseman" doing 530-590 damage vs. "Kraken doing 520-580 damage and both are a 4 pip spells. Guys, "Headless Horseman" is not that bad for the amount of damage is does. If it is a little overpowered, so what. Many spells are overpowered in this game. Some spells are more powerful than others having the same pip casting requirement. That's the way it is in this game. I don't hear those reject their overpowered spells. Why reject other's as you see fit. Why signal out PVE players just so you PVP players can have an ease to win. Sorry but PVP is meant to be challenging in every way. If people are so in to a game balance consideration, Then maybe they have the wrong game in mind. This is WIZARD101 not AD&D. This game is not designed to be perfectly balanced in fairness otherwise KI would have done something about it; staring with all the overpowered spells
It's not "a little overpowered" it is very overpowered. You are comparing a death spell to a storm spell and saying that it is only slightly overpowered because it's only 10 damage over a storm spell. This is a false comparison; here is another example. The Ice school in competitive gear has 8000 health. Would it be ok to give the Storm school 8010 health in competitive gear simply because it's only "a little overpowered" compared to the Ice gear?

Now let us look at death's single target burst damage spells
Vampire deals 350 damage for 4 pips
Skeletal pirate deals 430-510 damage for 5 pips
Lord of Night deals 425 damage for 5 pips
Wraith deals 500 damage for 6 pips
Headless horseman beats out all of these spells by a large margin for only 4 pips. Do you see how this is very op for a death spell?

Now the logic that many spells are op so we shouldn't nerf spells simply does not make sense. Yes some spells are OP(just as some are underpowered) and I have been a strong advocate for adjusting these spells for years. In fact here is a recent article I did highlighting spell buffs and debuffs that would result in better class balance: Spell Changes. Nevertheless, Kingsisle has continued to make spell buffs and debuffs based on the effects they have on game balance. Hence the buff to Wings of Fate, Rusalka's Wrath, Raging Bull etc. Hence the nerf to Call of Khurulu, critical etc.

Moving on to PvP vs PvE. Headless horseman is an insignificant PvE spell. PvE is run most effectively with a high damage AoE after multiple buffs. Headless horseman is not an AoE and thus is mostly irrelevant to effective PvE play. PvP should be challenging due to the skill of the players not due to the OP spells or unfair advantages of a certain class. It's this kind of apathetic mentality that led to the large-scale class imbalances we see in PvP today.

In conclusion, the developers strive to make as balanced and fair a game for its players. Anything else is a betrayal of customer trust.

Survivor
May 18, 2010
1
Oh yes I love that spell too, too bad only pets have it :(

Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1113
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 19, 2017 wrote:
It's not "a little overpowered" it is very overpowered. You are comparing a death spell to a storm spell and saying that it is only slightly overpowered because it's only 10 damage over a storm spell. This is a false comparison; here is another example. The Ice school in competitive gear has 8000 health. Would it be ok to give the Storm school 8010 health in competitive gear simply because it's only "a little overpowered" compared to the Ice gear?

Now let us look at death's single target burst damage spells
Vampire deals 350 damage for 4 pips
Skeletal pirate deals 430-510 damage for 5 pips
Lord of Night deals 425 damage for 5 pips
Wraith deals 500 damage for 6 pips
Headless horseman beats out all of these spells by a large margin for only 4 pips. Do you see how this is very op for a death spell?

Now the logic that many spells are op so we shouldn't nerf spells simply does not make sense. Yes some spells are OP(just as some are underpowered) and I have been a strong advocate for adjusting these spells for years. In fact here is a recent article I did highlighting spell buffs and debuffs that would result in better class balance: Spell Changes. Nevertheless, Kingsisle has continued to make spell buffs and debuffs based on the effects they have on game balance. Hence the buff to Wings of Fate, Rusalka's Wrath, Raging Bull etc. Hence the nerf to Call of Khurulu, critical etc.

Moving on to PvP vs PvE. Headless horseman is an insignificant PvE spell. PvE is run most effectively with a high damage AoE after multiple buffs. Headless horseman is not an AoE and thus is mostly irrelevant to effective PvE play. PvP should be challenging due to the skill of the players not due to the OP spells or unfair advantages of a certain class. It's this kind of apathetic mentality that led to the large-scale class imbalances we see in PvP today.

In conclusion, the developers strive to make as balanced and fair a game for its players. Anything else is a betrayal of customer trust.
As I said in my post, so what. Many spell are overpowered and KI knows that and it's ok to one here and there. Again, that's the way it is in this game. If you want to talk about overpowered spells, I have a long list. Which one do you want start with first. Feint? ok, Feint is an overpowered trap +70 costing 1 pip, Death Trap +30 0 pips, Curse +20 0 pips. Feint is more powerful than all the other trap spells out there. Should we nerf that too because you want balance within a school and/or vs. other schools? What spell do you want to talk about next? But I'm not going to. This topic is about Headless Horseman. Not health. Comparing a spell to health is a bad example. Health is different It's not a spell. No, you are comparing a Death spell to a Storm spell. I'm just repeating what you said. No, KI did not touch any spells you've mentioned since they were added to the game from test realm.

Now the Point: Headless Horseman is fine the way is. It's a nice little spell when you need quick kill. What may be logic to you, others may have a different and deeper logic. None of us is KI. They are in the gaming business and went to school for that. We did not. KI will do what they will do. If they want to nerf Headless Horseman. It's fine by me. We don't speak for them. we can only suggest. Again, if you want a perfect balance and fairness, Then you have a wrong game in your thoughts. This is WIZARD101 NOT ( example) ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. I said all I need to say and I'm not going to repeat myself or argue.

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
121
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 19, 2017 wrote:
It's not "a little overpowered" it is very overpowered. You are comparing a death spell to a storm spell and saying that it is only slightly overpowered because it's only 10 damage over a storm spell. This is a false comparison; here is another example. The Ice school in competitive gear has 8000 health. Would it be ok to give the Storm school 8010 health in competitive gear simply because it's only "a little overpowered" compared to the Ice gear?

Now let us look at death's single target burst damage spells
Vampire deals 350 damage for 4 pips
Skeletal pirate deals 430-510 damage for 5 pips
Lord of Night deals 425 damage for 5 pips
Wraith deals 500 damage for 6 pips
Headless horseman beats out all of these spells by a large margin for only 4 pips. Do you see how this is very op for a death spell?

Now the logic that many spells are op so we shouldn't nerf spells simply does not make sense. Yes some spells are OP(just as some are underpowered) and I have been a strong advocate for adjusting these spells for years. In fact here is a recent article I did highlighting spell buffs and debuffs that would result in better class balance: Spell Changes. Nevertheless, Kingsisle has continued to make spell buffs and debuffs based on the effects they have on game balance. Hence the buff to Wings of Fate, Rusalka's Wrath, Raging Bull etc. Hence the nerf to Call of Khurulu, critical etc.

Moving on to PvP vs PvE. Headless horseman is an insignificant PvE spell. PvE is run most effectively with a high damage AoE after multiple buffs. Headless horseman is not an AoE and thus is mostly irrelevant to effective PvE play. PvP should be challenging due to the skill of the players not due to the OP spells or unfair advantages of a certain class. It's this kind of apathetic mentality that led to the large-scale class imbalances we see in PvP today.

In conclusion, the developers strive to make as balanced and fair a game for its players. Anything else is a betrayal of customer trust.
Sup and usually i would agree with you but in this case i can't dude. Which if you look at majority of death spells i feel like they are outclassed by other schools. Ok i see nerfing it but only if they change majority of the death spells because as of now death has nothing. Rampage is stronger than Lulu and its not even a shadow pip and can be buffed easily and its almost impossible to defend against. Its alot of spells like lore master compared to samoorai that doesnt make any sense, I can go on all day about it but still doesn't justify death not getting a decent high damage spell like headless at its fullest potential when they have nothing to spike dmg as fast as other schools. Empower, bad juju, sacrifice, dark pact has the potential to give death a better standing in pvp but they werent clearly made with death in mind and mostly better used by other schools. Also take in to account death has no damage bubble, Tc for death arent useful to them and the only good one they can use which is red ghost is more rare than cards that are spammed regularly in pvp like Icebird, stormbeetle, brownspider, firezilla, articzilla,firebeetle,icebats, rat magican, rat illusionist,yellow troll, magma colossus,storm efreet, balance efreet, 45% damage bubbles. Dont get me wrong i do agree pvp should be challenging due to the skills of the players and not due to the op skills but when you look at the inbalance in the game there is little skill to be up held when theyre giving out easy damage spikes and the only spell to get one with out a shadow pip is death.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
wakaflame201 on Sep 20, 2017 wrote:
Sup and usually i would agree with you but in this case i can't dude. Which if you look at majority of death spells i feel like they are outclassed by other schools. Ok i see nerfing it but only if they change majority of the death spells because as of now death has nothing. Rampage is stronger than Lulu and its not even a shadow pip and can be buffed easily and its almost impossible to defend against. Its alot of spells like lore master compared to samoorai that doesnt make any sense, I can go on all day about it but still doesn't justify death not getting a decent high damage spell like headless at its fullest potential when they have nothing to spike dmg as fast as other schools. Empower, bad juju, sacrifice, dark pact has the potential to give death a better standing in pvp but they werent clearly made with death in mind and mostly better used by other schools. Also take in to account death has no damage bubble, Tc for death arent useful to them and the only good one they can use which is red ghost is more rare than cards that are spammed regularly in pvp like Icebird, stormbeetle, brownspider, firezilla, articzilla,firebeetle,icebats, rat magican, rat illusionist,yellow troll, magma colossus,storm efreet, balance efreet, 45% damage bubbles. Dont get me wrong i do agree pvp should be challenging due to the skills of the players and not due to the op skills but when you look at the inbalance in the game there is little skill to be up held when theyre giving out easy damage spikes and the only spell to get one with out a shadow pip is death.
I agree with you 100% that a lot of death spells need a revamp. In fact, in this article, I laid out which spells could be revamped and how: Spell changes. I recommend you read the entire article but here are some pertinent highlights to improve death's 1v1 prowess:

-Change death self-hit spells to backlash damage(enabling them to leave blades intact and reducing the damage they deal to the wizard)
-Change Lord of Nights infection to a damage bubble
-Change Dr Von's infection to a -80% damage debuff
-Change Death King Artorious infection to a feint

As for headless horseman itself- I agree that death needs a low pip damage spike since it currently lacks one. However, I do not believe that damage spike should exceed Storm dpp. Much as myth was given a needed damage spike with ninja pigs(which was far above myth's dpp) but maintained a dpp lower than Storm I believe death should follow the same model. Here is how I see it working ideally.

Myth Dynamics
Minotaur- 495
Stormzilla- 650-730(avg 690)
Ninja Pigs- 640(93% of stormzilla's damage)

Death Dynamics
Vampire- 350
Theoretical 4 pip non-drain spell (based on skeletal pirates dpp)- 376
Kraken- 520-580(avg 550)
Headless Horseman- 512(93% of kraken's damage)

As can be seen 512 damage would still give death an excellent damage spike(far above it's dpp) while still following the balancing mechanics established with ninja pigs.

As for burning rampage- i long ago identified the how OP that spell was even before it was used in PvP and have been a constant advocate for it's nerf.

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1475
Patrick Ravenbane on Sep 19, 2017 wrote:
I looked up "Headless Horseman" doing 530-590 damage vs. "Kraken doing 520-580 damage and both are a 4 pip spells. Guys, "Headless Horseman" is not that bad for the amount of damage is does. If it is a little overpowered, so what. Many spells are overpowered in this game. Some spells are more powerful than others having the same pip casting requirement. That's the way it is in this game. I don't hear those reject their overpowered spells. Why reject other's as you see fit. Why signal out PVE players just so you PVP players can have an ease to win. Sorry but PVP is meant to be challenging in every way. If people are so in to a game balance consideration, Then maybe they have the wrong game in mind. This is WIZARD101 not AD&D. This game is not designed to be perfectly balanced in fairness otherwise KI would have done something about it; staring with all the overpowered spells
I agree, let Death have a good rock 'em sock 'em spell.

It seems like Death really doesn't have anything that powerful. That's subjective. I'm not one who's good at breaking down stats. It has feint but I hate feint, without going into the reasons why, since that's subjective also.

It seems like most schools have a really powerful spell. I can't think of one by Death yet. I agree too that it's Wiz not 'other games' that are a lot more competitive and aggro. This one should be fun.

At least that's my subjective opinion.

Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1113
SparkleTude on Sep 21, 2017 wrote:
I agree, let Death have a good rock 'em sock 'em spell.

It seems like Death really doesn't have anything that powerful. That's subjective. I'm not one who's good at breaking down stats. It has feint but I hate feint, without going into the reasons why, since that's subjective also.

It seems like most schools have a really powerful spell. I can't think of one by Death yet. I agree too that it's Wiz not 'other games' that are a lot more competitive and aggro. This one should be fun.

At least that's my subjective opinion.
I agree, Death does need a low pip power hitting spell. Specially when we are questing in harder worlds like Mirage and Emprea coming soon where a low pip spell as powerful or greater than Headless Horseman is highly needed for a quick kill. Getting a shadow pip for a spell isn't guaranteed when you need it. That's why I say keep Headless Horseman the way it is if it will be added to the game as craftable spell. At times I hate feint too. One was placed on me from one of the thieves in Mirage and killed me with a critical doing over 4,000 damage to me. Lucky hit. From some players mostly PVP players crying about overpowered spells, I'm surprise Feint wasn't nerfed. Monster Mash was going to be a power hitting Death spell but PVP players complained about that one too saying it's way overpowered for a 6 pip spell which I agreed on. I'm hoping KI will bring it back later in the game as a shadow-enhanced Spell. Why leave many PVE players struggling in harder worlds just because some other players cry every time they get hit by an overpowered spell but it's ok if they cast them on creatures. Go figure.

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
121
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 21, 2017 wrote:
I agree with you 100% that a lot of death spells need a revamp. In fact, in this article, I laid out which spells could be revamped and how: Spell changes. I recommend you read the entire article but here are some pertinent highlights to improve death's 1v1 prowess:

-Change death self-hit spells to backlash damage(enabling them to leave blades intact and reducing the damage they deal to the wizard)
-Change Lord of Nights infection to a damage bubble
-Change Dr Von's infection to a -80% damage debuff
-Change Death King Artorious infection to a feint

As for headless horseman itself- I agree that death needs a low pip damage spike since it currently lacks one. However, I do not believe that damage spike should exceed Storm dpp. Much as myth was given a needed damage spike with ninja pigs(which was far above myth's dpp) but maintained a dpp lower than Storm I believe death should follow the same model. Here is how I see it working ideally.

Myth Dynamics
Minotaur- 495
Stormzilla- 650-730(avg 690)
Ninja Pigs- 640(93% of stormzilla's damage)

Death Dynamics
Vampire- 350
Theoretical 4 pip non-drain spell (based on skeletal pirates dpp)- 376
Kraken- 520-580(avg 550)
Headless Horseman- 512(93% of kraken's damage)

As can be seen 512 damage would still give death an excellent damage spike(far above it's dpp) while still following the balancing mechanics established with ninja pigs.

As for burning rampage- i long ago identified the how OP that spell was even before it was used in PvP and have been a constant advocate for it's nerf.
I agree with is 100% but you have to throw Calypso in the mix. Calyspo is also slightly stronger than Kraken. but it also had a chance to be a bit weaker. With epic enchant which i am adding in the fact of the 20% before the hit it does 894-966. Headless with a 830-890. Its close in dmg but storm overall still has more overall options to spike needed damage when backed in to a corner. Its optional but 95% of the death spells are too and they dont kill and still take away from us drastically. For death to compete they have to either change/buff some spells, nerf other spells or give us new high damage spells. Which for years hasn't got nothing in comparison to the other schools. Even Athena has more damage than pirate and it has a side effect to back it.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
Patrick Ravenbane on Sep 20, 2017 wrote:
As I said in my post, so what. Many spell are overpowered and KI knows that and it's ok to one here and there. Again, that's the way it is in this game. If you want to talk about overpowered spells, I have a long list. Which one do you want start with first. Feint? ok, Feint is an overpowered trap +70 costing 1 pip, Death Trap +30 0 pips, Curse +20 0 pips. Feint is more powerful than all the other trap spells out there. Should we nerf that too because you want balance within a school and/or vs. other schools? What spell do you want to talk about next? But I'm not going to. This topic is about Headless Horseman. Not health. Comparing a spell to health is a bad example. Health is different It's not a spell. No, you are comparing a Death spell to a Storm spell. I'm just repeating what you said. No, KI did not touch any spells you've mentioned since they were added to the game from test realm.

Now the Point: Headless Horseman is fine the way is. It's a nice little spell when you need quick kill. What may be logic to you, others may have a different and deeper logic. None of us is KI. They are in the gaming business and went to school for that. We did not. KI will do what they will do. If they want to nerf Headless Horseman. It's fine by me. We don't speak for them. we can only suggest. Again, if you want a perfect balance and fairness, Then you have a wrong game in your thoughts. This is WIZARD101 NOT ( example) ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. I said all I need to say and I'm not going to repeat myself or argue.
The "so what" is a game balance issue. If you don't care about game or class balance that's fine, but I and others do.

Let's address feint- It's not overpowered at all. Yes it's more powerful than most traps but it has built in balancing factors. Wheras most traps are 0 pips, feint costs 1 pip. It also leaves a negative effect on the caster. Viola the spell is balanced. Now if the feint spell was 0 pips and didn't include said negative effect then yes it would be overpowered.

Lol, I like how since you can't defend op health comparisons we should ignore those consequences since "it's different". Thats ok- we can do it with spells too. Would it be fair for storm to get a 60% tower shield? Afterall its only 10% over Ice's tower.

All the spells i have mentioned have been changed example:
Khurulu- Was 1030, nerfed to 830
Critical- Nerfed twice

Not to mention many other spells changed due to player feedback such as the lore spells, storm minion, guardian spirit etc. I agree that we can only suggest- hence what im doing.

Saying this game isn't AD and D doesn't offer much support for your argument. This game also isnt Dora the explorer barnyard buddies where balance doesn't matter.

Finally, if you are done with this debate that's ok- no one is forcing you to engage

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
SparkleTude on Sep 21, 2017 wrote:
I agree, let Death have a good rock 'em sock 'em spell.

It seems like Death really doesn't have anything that powerful. That's subjective. I'm not one who's good at breaking down stats. It has feint but I hate feint, without going into the reasons why, since that's subjective also.

It seems like most schools have a really powerful spell. I can't think of one by Death yet. I agree too that it's Wiz not 'other games' that are a lot more competitive and aggro. This one should be fun.

At least that's my subjective opinion.
My ideal headless horseman at 512 damage would still give death a good rock em, sock em spell. It would still be more powerful than vampire, lord of night, skeletal pirate and wraith. It would just be more balanced and consistent with spell design trends.

I know for some people fun is giving out op spells to the schools. For others, fun is about giving the schools thoughtful, well balanced spells that augment the school's abilities.

If KI wants to continue ignoring game balance issues then it will watch the pvp community it seems desperate to try and save continue to dwindle.

Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1113
wakaflame201 on Sep 15, 2017 wrote:
Death should get Monster mash and headless.I feel death should get both because from the passing updates its been schools that got 3 and 2 spells back to back so why not give death 2 more. I would say nerfed the damage a bit on Mash to where its 1170 with enchant, which is the orignal damage of the tc. Let me kinda justify it being 1170 with epic. Burning rampage is 1,046 in total with enchant and its uncounterable which second can be combo'd even with its lingering effect. Mash is more pips(6) and you can't follow up with another attack because the beguile. Lastly i agree with nerfing headless a bit but it will need a good side effect
Yes, Monster Mash was an awesome spell. I get a kick out of it every time I see it cast. I wanted that spell so bad but unfortunately KI took it out of the game because a fewer players cried about it saying its was way overpowered; even I thought it was. I'm Hoping KI will bring back later in the game maybe as a shadow-enhanced spell.

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1475
Understandable but I never PVP and I love a good walloping spell. So I hope it packs a good wallop.

So many of the street battles are repetitive and the collection quests seem endless when soloing. I like to get through them asap.

A+ Student
Dec 24, 2009
1895
SparkleTude on Sep 19, 2017 wrote:
Eric I never said it should be excluded.

Maybe scroll up where I said:

"I am not against the spell being craftable"

Thanks.

I'm not sure why my post wasn't read or wasn't read more carefully. Now I have people arguing with me that gold and reagents are not free (they are, no matter how many are required, which we do not even know, yet), and that I said not to make the spell craftable.

The winky face at the end should've indicated that I was joking about being bothered at all (because I bought a pet) anyway. I don't care! Hope that makes it crystal clear.
In economics, there's this thing called "opportunity cost," and it's more than just money spent. It also involves time and resources. Whatever you chose to do, there's something else you're giving up and unable to do because you can't do everything. The cost of doing 'A' means you've given up the opportunity to do 'B.' Does that make sense?

Basically, if you buy a pet for the spell it comes with, that will cost you money but save you time and in-game resources.

If I forego the pet but craft the spell instead, that will cost me time and in-game resources, but save me money.

In the end, we've both made decisions and spent either money we could have spent on other things, or time we could have spent on other activities, to get what we want. They are equivalent routes to the same goal and we both paid a price to reach it, so I guess you feeling "chapped" about it just struck me as, I don't know. Unfair, I guess.

Sorry if I sounded argumentative.

Alia Misthaven

Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1113
SparkleTude on Sep 16, 2017 wrote:
"Lastly i agree with nerfing headless a bit but it will need a good side effect"

May I ask why nerf it?

I wondered that when someone else said it before but now it's been seconded. I like spells to have a lot of damage.
I agree, I'm more in to damage and survival than dpp rating but not way over the rating board ( epic like ). That's why I thought Monster Mash would've been a great 6 pip spell doing 1170 damage until I noticed Beguile was the side affect. that made it too much op.. I too want a good side affect on Headless Horseman it the spell will be nerf. Besides I think Craftable spells should be better than regular ones

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1475
Patrick Ravenbane on Sep 22, 2017 wrote:
I agree, I'm more in to damage and survival than dpp rating but not way over the rating board ( epic like ). That's why I thought Monster Mash would've been a great 6 pip spell doing 1170 damage until I noticed Beguile was the side affect. that made it too much op.. I too want a good side affect on Headless Horseman it the spell will be nerf. Besides I think Craftable spells should be better than regular ones
Those are great ideas.

The spell being different (than the one that can be bought with crowns as a pet with spell card) would make everyone happy, I think.

Side effects are always nice.

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1475
Freshta on Sep 22, 2017 wrote:
In economics, there's this thing called "opportunity cost," and it's more than just money spent. It also involves time and resources. Whatever you chose to do, there's something else you're giving up and unable to do because you can't do everything. The cost of doing 'A' means you've given up the opportunity to do 'B.' Does that make sense?

Basically, if you buy a pet for the spell it comes with, that will cost you money but save you time and in-game resources.

If I forego the pet but craft the spell instead, that will cost me time and in-game resources, but save me money.

In the end, we've both made decisions and spent either money we could have spent on other things, or time we could have spent on other activities, to get what we want. They are equivalent routes to the same goal and we both paid a price to reach it, so I guess you feeling "chapped" about it just struck me as, I don't know. Unfair, I guess.

Sorry if I sounded argumentative.

Alia Misthaven
I understand (time = money basically), and addressed this in a prior post.

People spend time in the real world too, though, to obtain the real world money used to purchase in game money, which in turn can purchase 'short cuts' in the form of packs, pets with cards, etc. Time and money are fixed objects in that sense.

Either way people sacrifice something to obtain what they want. I never said otherwise. I only said the craftable items are "free," i.e. no real world money required. That is important because not everyone can purchase crowns. It's not solely a question of time or effort or sacrifice.

Thank you and I accept your apology.

Delver
Dec 08, 2016
226
SparkleTude on Sep 16, 2017 wrote:
"Lastly i agree with nerfing headless a bit but it will need a good side effect"

May I ask why nerf it?

I wondered that when someone else said it before but now it's been seconded. I like spells to have a lot of damage.
As much as I'd like Headless Horseman's damage to remain as it is if it does become an official spell one day, I like PvP to be balanced out and fair for everyone.

Even if it were to stay the same, soon enough it will be nerfed, just like what happened to Khrulhu . The only thing I hope to see from this spell is a trap and a weakness effect as the author of this article has already mentioned (please not another Infection).

Delver
Dec 08, 2016
226
SparkleTude on Sep 21, 2017 wrote:
I agree, let Death have a good rock 'em sock 'em spell.

It seems like Death really doesn't have anything that powerful. That's subjective. I'm not one who's good at breaking down stats. It has feint but I hate feint, without going into the reasons why, since that's subjective also.

It seems like most schools have a really powerful spell. I can't think of one by Death yet. I agree too that it's Wiz not 'other games' that are a lot more competitive and aggro. This one should be fun.

At least that's my subjective opinion.
Bad Juju was Death's overpowered spell. But that has already been nerfed after the Reshuffle update . So Juju spammers aren't much of a threat as they were back in their prime. Once you run out of the maximum Bad Juju cards in your deck, you can't multiply them with Reshuffle no more (unless you got the treasure cards; though the TC version is difficult to get your hands on).

Delver
Dec 08, 2016
226
Patrick Ravenbane on Sep 22, 2017 wrote:
Yes, Monster Mash was an awesome spell. I get a kick out of it every time I see it cast. I wanted that spell so bad but unfortunately KI took it out of the game because a fewer players cried about it saying its was way overpowered; even I thought it was. I'm Hoping KI will bring back later in the game maybe as a shadow-enhanced spell.
I do hope that's the case too. It's certainly one of the best looking spells I've seen in the game so far.

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
121
Patrick Ravenbane on Sep 22, 2017 wrote:
I agree, I'm more in to damage and survival than dpp rating but not way over the rating board ( epic like ). That's why I thought Monster Mash would've been a great 6 pip spell doing 1170 damage until I noticed Beguile was the side affect. that made it too much op.. I too want a good side affect on Headless Horseman it the spell will be nerf. Besides I think Craftable spells should be better than regular ones
Monster mash was perfect the way it has. If they would of lowered the damage to make it 1170 with a epic wouldve been even better because of the beguile it makes it more of a risky spell to use because you can't combo it after the effect, For example say a death Monster Mash someone they get free heal or shield play right after because they can't attack. Burning Rampage is way more overpowered. Its 1046 damage(5 pips) in total and its undefendable which would make it stronger than Lulu. Efreet is the most overpower spell in game which it does 1170 and has a 90% weakness. Not to mention they have countless damage bubbles and firebeetle stacks which every trap is 35%(equal to fireblade) 3 traps for 2 pips.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
wakaflame201 on Sep 23, 2017 wrote:
Monster mash was perfect the way it has. If they would of lowered the damage to make it 1170 with a epic wouldve been even better because of the beguile it makes it more of a risky spell to use because you can't combo it after the effect, For example say a death Monster Mash someone they get free heal or shield play right after because they can't attack. Burning Rampage is way more overpowered. Its 1046 damage(5 pips) in total and its undefendable which would make it stronger than Lulu. Efreet is the most overpower spell in game which it does 1170 and has a 90% weakness. Not to mention they have countless damage bubbles and firebeetle stacks which every trap is 35%(equal to fireblade) 3 traps for 2 pips.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. An 870 damage spell with a 3 pip aftereffect is the very definition of overpowered. Triton(a storm spell with no effect) averages 835 damage. Not only that but KI has shown that when they give a mid pip non shadow spell a multipip effect the dpp is actually significantly lowered. Look at Hephaestus and Catch of the Day. Those are given effects equivalent to 2 pips yet they suffer a huge dpp consequence for it-actually dealing below the dpp of their class. Now of course, I believe Hep and CoD should be buffed but to neutral dpp not way above dpp. A neutral dpp Monster Mash would deal around 570 damage.

Now beguile isn't a traditional combo spell but it is one of the best defensive spells in the game. It is one of the most consistently reliable counters to shadow shrike and the shadow creatures, protects the caster for 1-2 rounds allowing them to buff, shield or heal as they see fit and from second even allows the caster to pull off an unexpected combo with an AoE spell.

Now Burning Rampage being OP doesn't offer justification for giving death a similarly OP spell. What it does justify is nerfing Burning Rampage. I am aware of the extreme combo synergy of Fire and was one of the first to point this out as well as one of the first to demonstrate exactly how OP burning Rampage would become(while the spell was still in test realm). Read this article from 2 years+ ago: Inferno Rising

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1475
I dunno a lot of this is over my head I guess.

I am just bummed I missed a spell called "Monster Mash."

One of the best songs, ever.

"Well, I was working in the lab, a-late, one night..."

Defender
Jan 24, 2009
121
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 24, 2017 wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. An 870 damage spell with a 3 pip aftereffect is the very definition of overpowered. Triton(a storm spell with no effect) averages 835 damage. Not only that but KI has shown that when they give a mid pip non shadow spell a multipip effect the dpp is actually significantly lowered. Look at Hephaestus and Catch of the Day. Those are given effects equivalent to 2 pips yet they suffer a huge dpp consequence for it-actually dealing below the dpp of their class. Now of course, I believe Hep and CoD should be buffed but to neutral dpp not way above dpp. A neutral dpp Monster Mash would deal around 570 damage.

Now beguile isn't a traditional combo spell but it is one of the best defensive spells in the game. It is one of the most consistently reliable counters to shadow shrike and the shadow creatures, protects the caster for 1-2 rounds allowing them to buff, shield or heal as they see fit and from second even allows the caster to pull off an unexpected combo with an AoE spell.

Now Burning Rampage being OP doesn't offer justification for giving death a similarly OP spell. What it does justify is nerfing Burning Rampage. I am aware of the extreme combo synergy of Fire and was one of the first to point this out as well as one of the first to demonstrate exactly how OP burning Rampage would become(while the spell was still in test realm). Read this article from 2 years+ ago: Inferno Rising
It could be Justified when still nothing have been done about these spells. Efreet is literally the same damage as Mash and it has a 90% weakness. Yes it is more pips but It has a better effect and it can be comboed, Directly disrupt all combos and has the effect of a bad juju which is a 3 pip spell. Death literally has nothing so i would say they deserve it and especially when nothing still has been done about Rampage, efreet, Lore and etc. And they wont do anything about it or death not being able to not fully utilize their own spells but still have to blade stack. Death is so disrespected that even Ashen Bone that is a Tc which damage has 250+1000 is stronger than a full enchanted Skeletal dragon but yet Ki has yet to do anything about it. Myth King Art outclasses Skeletal dragon with just its base damage and it has an addition effect. Not to mention death still doesnt have a official bubble but its fair to give them worst base damage and less effects out of all the classes?And yet anything is still done about that. Death is the only school that got a x spell that doesn't compliment their specialty which is drains but instead got Animate but nothing will be done about that. Fire can brainlessly spam firebeetles that stack then go into a massive shot hit but nothing will done about it. Also you may not know this about beguile but you can't always aoe combo from second and I will explain. Beguile is one of the most situational spells in game. With beguile it depends on your position (First or second) but also the symbol you're on. Dagger or sun. If you're second and and beguile someone thats first they can Aoe you still but if you're and second you can beguile and hit with a aoe but you're second still and they can just shield your hit. If you're first on any space and beguile they can literally still single hit you the turn you used it then the next turn aoe.Only thing that changes is position they can hit. If you dont believe me test it out with a friend.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1035
wakaflame201 on Sep 25, 2017 wrote:
It could be Justified when still nothing have been done about these spells. Efreet is literally the same damage as Mash and it has a 90% weakness. Yes it is more pips but It has a better effect and it can be comboed, Directly disrupt all combos and has the effect of a bad juju which is a 3 pip spell. Death literally has nothing so i would say they deserve it and especially when nothing still has been done about Rampage, efreet, Lore and etc. And they wont do anything about it or death not being able to not fully utilize their own spells but still have to blade stack. Death is so disrespected that even Ashen Bone that is a Tc which damage has 250+1000 is stronger than a full enchanted Skeletal dragon but yet Ki has yet to do anything about it. Myth King Art outclasses Skeletal dragon with just its base damage and it has an addition effect. Not to mention death still doesnt have a official bubble but its fair to give them worst base damage and less effects out of all the classes?And yet anything is still done about that. Death is the only school that got a x spell that doesn't compliment their specialty which is drains but instead got Animate but nothing will be done about that. Fire can brainlessly spam firebeetles that stack then go into a massive shot hit but nothing will done about it. Also you may not know this about beguile but you can't always aoe combo from second and I will explain. Beguile is one of the most situational spells in game. With beguile it depends on your position (First or second) but also the symbol you're on. Dagger or sun. If you're second and and beguile someone thats first they can Aoe you still but if you're and second you can beguile and hit with a aoe but you're second still and they can just shield your hit. If you're first on any space and beguile they can literally still single hit you the turn you used it then the next turn aoe.Only thing that changes is position they can hit. If you dont believe me test it out with a friend.
The problem is that giving death a spell such as this simply compounds its problems. How can we pressure KI on good faith to nerf problematic spells while giving death a spell that is so blatantly op? How can death advocate for needed spell adjustments when KI can say nah you got monster mash? What happens when other schools correctly point out that they have no spell that is so clearly above dpp range with a powerful effect? Even meta defining spells such as efreet, lore and rampage pale in dpp comparison to an 870 monster mash when it's neutral dpp is 570.

Death does need help: A 512 headless horseman is a step in the right direction. A 870 monster mash is way overboard.

Delver
Dec 08, 2016
226
Overall, I just want this spell to become an official Death spell this Halloween or next year. I don't really care how it will be obtainable for us because at this point I'm just desperate for a new Death spell . Death has only been given Deer Knight and Lord of Night to craft. The other schools have three or more, as well as spells they can get from packs. Besides, Lord of Night is not even good in my opinion. Therefore, the school only has one craftable spell that can be useful to us. I do hope that they don't reduce the damage too much or make it into a Lord of Night 2.0 because at this stage Death is in need of a 4-pip spell that can pack a punch. Crossing my fingers that they'll add some after-effects to it. Please KingsIsle, grant our wish!