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A Dead Theurgist and Polaris

AuthorMessage
Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
Sylvia Drake, née Spitfire, was Malistaire Drake's beloved wife; until she 'caught a nasty cold and it wouldn't get better'. Unfortunately, even the brightest of Life wizards could not heal her, and she died a tragic death. Her death is what drove Malistaire mad and brought about the 1st arc's storyline, but this idea of a sudden and incureable cold sounds much more familiar with Polaris' showstopping entry into our story. I quote from the quest 'Tree Talk':

Moolinda Wu - "Bartleby's been standing here, strong and healthy, ever since... Well, ever since the dawn of time. To see him sick... It worries me. I am ashamed to say, I don't even know what ails him. Maybe Bartleby himself knows what's wrong. Would you be a dear and go ask him?"

Bartleby - "Brr... Cold. Such a cold wind. Chills one right down to the roots. ... Oh I do not feel well. Tell Ambrose."

A cold that made him feel ill, that even the brightest of Life wizards couldn't heal... I think that whatever made Sylvia fall ill was the same thing that made Bartleby ill. So what do we know about this person, or group, or thing that did it if they are connected? Not much. We know that they hail from Polaris, or nearby, and are very adept in presumably Thaumaturgy and Theurgy or Necromancy. We also know that they wanted Sylvia dead, and I assume they knew what that would cause, so they likely wanted the Fire Titan freed and the Spiral to be terrorised by it. This person even has the power to make a Grandparent (Tree, Raven & Spider) fall ill. So let's try to narrow it down.

A Polarian wizard or witch is very helpful, but I don't think it would be Baba Yaga. She seems reclusive and not exactly evil, not to mention she knows little about Ice, Life & Death. So most likely not her. And since the Arcanum exists outside of time and space itself, we can assume it's not Qismah Shasa or Zander. But it could very possibly have something to do with Tarrak Hadfield. The best we know in the field of Thaumaturgy, hailing from Polaris, and a character we know very little about. That about him which we do know is he met the Auroracle once, and her words inspired him to leave Polaris and that's what led him to the Arcanum. What could she have said? Impossible to even guess, but that should be something to look for as the rest of the 3rd arc unfurls.

But we're grasping at straws here anyway, Tarrak could be perfectly good, but let's take another look. Mellori is hardly strong enough to bring illness on a Titan, but let's focus on the greatest source of magic in all of Polaris; the Auroracle. Definitely powerful enough to bring illness on Bartleby, and not shown to be good or evil in any way. They seem to dislike Spider, but never mentions how they feel about Tree or Raven. But as they have also fallen ill, it's rather unlikely it was her to curse Bartleby.

If the incidents of Sylvia & Bartleby are linked, then it can't be Spider. And to me; that leaves one being strong enough and cold enough.

Grandmother Raven.

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
Blaze Sandblade on Aug 23, 2016 wrote:
Sylvia Drake, née Spitfire, was Malistaire Drake's beloved wife; until she 'caught a nasty cold and it wouldn't get better'. Unfortunately, even the brightest of Life wizards could not heal her, and she died a tragic death. Her death is what drove Malistaire mad and brought about the 1st arc's storyline, but this idea of a sudden and incureable cold sounds much more familiar with Polaris' showstopping entry into our story. I quote from the quest 'Tree Talk':

Moolinda Wu - "Bartleby's been standing here, strong and healthy, ever since... Well, ever since the dawn of time. To see him sick... It worries me. I am ashamed to say, I don't even know what ails him. Maybe Bartleby himself knows what's wrong. Would you be a dear and go ask him?"

Bartleby - "Brr... Cold. Such a cold wind. Chills one right down to the roots. ... Oh I do not feel well. Tell Ambrose."

A cold that made him feel ill, that even the brightest of Life wizards couldn't heal... I think that whatever made Sylvia fall ill was the same thing that made Bartleby ill. So what do we know about this person, or group, or thing that did it if they are connected? Not much. We know that they hail from Polaris, or nearby, and are very adept in presumably Thaumaturgy and Theurgy or Necromancy. We also know that they wanted Sylvia dead, and I assume they knew what that would cause, so they likely wanted the Fire Titan freed and the Spiral to be terrorised by it. This person even has the power to make a Grandparent (Tree, Raven & Spider) fall ill. So let's try to narrow it down.

A Polarian wizard or witch is very helpful, but I don't think it would be Baba Yaga. She seems reclusive and not exactly evil, not to mention she knows little about Ice, Life & Death. So most likely not her. And since the Arcanum exists outside of time and space itself, we can assume it's not Qismah Shasa or Zander. But it could very possibly have something to do with Tarrak Hadfield. The best we know in the field of Thaumaturgy, hailing from Polaris, and a character we know very little about. That about him which we do know is he met the Auroracle once, and her words inspired him to leave Polaris and that's what led him to the Arcanum. What could she have said? Impossible to even guess, but that should be something to look for as the rest of the 3rd arc unfurls.

But we're grasping at straws here anyway, Tarrak could be perfectly good, but let's take another look. Mellori is hardly strong enough to bring illness on a Titan, but let's focus on the greatest source of magic in all of Polaris; the Auroracle. Definitely powerful enough to bring illness on Bartleby, and not shown to be good or evil in any way. They seem to dislike Spider, but never mentions how they feel about Tree or Raven. But as they have also fallen ill, it's rather unlikely it was her to curse Bartleby.

If the incidents of Sylvia & Bartleby are linked, then it can't be Spider. And to me; that leaves one being strong enough and cold enough.

Grandmother Raven.
Now, I ran out of space there, but let me clear up a few things. It is VERY likely that Sylvia & Bartleby's illnesses aren't linked, all of this is theory and guesswork. Also, I think the obvious culprit that KI wants us to blame is Spider, but whether they go with the obvious or attempt a plot twist I don't know. Aside from Spider, I think it's most likely that Tarrak is responsible. He seems nice enough, but in cases of plot twists, it's always the nice guy who did it. But I left that on a rather weird note for some of you, although combine this with an old post of mine suggesting Raven could be the 3rd arc villain, it seems like I have a vendetta against her. But that was before Polaris and an entirely insane suggestion. But now we have some rather shocking speech from one of Tarrak's quests (coicidence? I think so): in Sundering of Land and Sky you enter a cave that says:

Narrator - "The cave smells of deep earth and quiet regrets. It seems another guardian has arisen to protect the cave's sanctity."

Grandmother Raven - "Ancient secrets are hidden here, young one. Wise as you may have become, some knowledge may be better left unknown. I have watched you in your travels, and even watched over you at times, but my vision has been clouded of late. Things are not what they were. I can no longer discern the purity of your heart and the truth of your intent, but mark my words carefully... Use this knowledge for the good of the Spiral, and my blessing will be with you, but if you do the Spiral harm, my wrath will find you."

Well doesn't that sound ominous? So what is this knowledge she thinks could lead to us doing the Spiral harm?

"At FirstWorld's dawn did Shadow and Light play, across Land and Sky as One, bound by an unbreakable Seam of Borealis, never to be undone. But Titans in savage fury came, Raven and Spider's spawn, the unbreakable Seam was sundered, the FirstWorld was gone."

I'd add more but there's not enough room, I''l add more later.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
I don't think that it is Tarrak Hatfield as he's a part of the Arcanum. I don't understand your logic at all about how it isn't Grandfather Spider. He is actually the most likely of characters to have done so. It would definitely be a plot twist if it was Grandmother Raven. So if it was a powerful Ice magic that came from Polaris it could have been the Auroracle as you mentioned, but I would assume that she was forced to do it by one of the Grandparents (Spider or Raven). Who do the Coven work for? They wanted to bring about the Everwinter and it would take a lot of planning but perhaps someone did want Malistaire to awaken the Dragon Titan. I mean if your wife is dead why would your first inclination be to awaken a Giant Fire Titan? Someone must have whispered the idea to Malistaire. The Coven want the Everwinter and try to awaken the Ice Titan which perhaps he could have caused some stirring. We also have the fact that Rasputin was able to make a Borealis Gemstone Titan so what kind of magic must that have involved? We also do not know the location of the Storm Titan, or much about him except that he sank Celestia. We also know that the Celestians were aware of Borealis Gemstones along with the People of Mirage. I think it will be interesting to see what unfolds.... (Also I love the Title of this post :D) I look forward to hearing from you Blaze and everyone else!

Geographer
Mar 12, 2013
929
First of all we don't know that the illness Sylvia Drake caught, and the one Bartleby has, are the same illness. One could be SARS, the other could be the Blue Ague for all we know.

Second of all the Rat is partially ice - anyone who has ever sat out a round due to mass frostbite or hit into a -55 tower knows this. So if the Rat is part ice, then it follows that Grandfather Spider is also part ice (and part fire).

My guess is that because we've only met one aspect of Grandfather Spider (rat), we should not come to hasty conclusions about who or what is ailing the Auroracle, Bartleby, etc. The chill certainly sounds like it is an ice ailment, but Bartleby has no trouble at all conveying us to Wintertusk where even the bears are frozen solid. So it must be someone IN Polaris who is responsible.

We may get more information when we battle the Bat and the Scorpion, or Old Cob himself. I'm sure that will be pleasant times and won't have any cheats whatsoever.

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
exp613 on Aug 24, 2016 wrote:
I don't think that it is Tarrak Hatfield as he's a part of the Arcanum. I don't understand your logic at all about how it isn't Grandfather Spider. He is actually the most likely of characters to have done so. It would definitely be a plot twist if it was Grandmother Raven. So if it was a powerful Ice magic that came from Polaris it could have been the Auroracle as you mentioned, but I would assume that she was forced to do it by one of the Grandparents (Spider or Raven). Who do the Coven work for? They wanted to bring about the Everwinter and it would take a lot of planning but perhaps someone did want Malistaire to awaken the Dragon Titan. I mean if your wife is dead why would your first inclination be to awaken a Giant Fire Titan? Someone must have whispered the idea to Malistaire. The Coven want the Everwinter and try to awaken the Ice Titan which perhaps he could have caused some stirring. We also have the fact that Rasputin was able to make a Borealis Gemstone Titan so what kind of magic must that have involved? We also do not know the location of the Storm Titan, or much about him except that he sank Celestia. We also know that the Celestians were aware of Borealis Gemstones along with the People of Mirage. I think it will be interesting to see what unfolds.... (Also I love the Title of this post :D) I look forward to hearing from you Blaze and everyone else!
Tarrak Hadfield is a part of the Arcanum now, but he's originally from Polaris, so he could've visited Polaris when cursing Bartleby to throw everyone off his trail. And the only reason it can't be Spider, is if the illnesses are linked, because Spider was trapped in Khrysalis whenever Sylvia fell ill. Probably. Time is a difficult thing to measure in this universe; particularly regarding Dragonspyre. Sylvia, Malistaire & Cyrus all went to Dragonspyre Academy and presumably graduated, but apparently it's been long abandoned, so age is the most confusing thing. We don't know how long Sylvia had been dead for before Malistaire attempted to summon the Great Fire Dragon, but I'm going to take a leap and assume it was after Spider had been imprisoned. I like your idea of somebody trying to use proxies to raise the Titans. The Coven for Ymir, Malistaire for the Great Dragon, and Morganthe for the Storm Titan (it's how she destroyed Celestia). But I'll come back to this in another reply.

To crunkatog, firstly, I'm well aware that the illnesses could be unrelated, but the similarties are there; if they weren't then this post wouldn't exist. Second, the Rat, along with Bat and Scorpion, would've been trapped in Khrysalis too, so it couldn't have been them IF the illnesses are linked. Thirdly, I agree it must've been someone in Polaris who did it, which is another reason why I doubt it being Spider, he only appears in Polaris at the end to take Rat away (Bat, Rat & Scorpion are his kids, not himself btw), he was probably away causing chaos in another world when someone in Polaris made Bartleby fall ill.

I don't have much room, but back to exp613: I don't think the people of Mirage knew the Gemstone's power, only the Celestians. But I certainly don't think we've heard the last of that incredible world of new magics and old mysteries. Perhaps the 4th arc involves us going to a third GH expansion and DS & CL in the past to do something with the Titans.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Uh, you don't become Ice Scholar over night? Tarrak has held his position for far longer than our short time in Polaris. The chances of it being him are virtually zero -sub zero (haha) If you read the dialogue upon meeting him it says:

"You're the one who spoke with the Auroracle, aren't you? Amazing, isn't she? Went to see her myself once. Been a long time since those days. Her words inspired me to leave my people, to leave Polaris. That's what led me here. That's a story for another day though, don't ya know." -Tarrak Hadfield,

So he blatantly says that he hasn't been to Polaris or even spoken to the Auroracle in a very very long time. (And I'm sure the other scholars will vouch for him.) For him to use Ice Magic to harm Bartleby is way too obvious- you'd think he'd try and be sneaky and blame it on Baba Yaga or something. I mean she's from Polaris too so maybe she's trying to frame Tarrak?

I still think that it was Spider. While true that he was locked in a deep pit in Khrysalis his influence is/was somehow able to escape that pit. For example, Morganthe was definitely heavily influenced by shadow and a major pawn for Spider and his return. If he was able to influence Morganthe, I'm sure there are others that were also able to feel his influence. For example, English Bill hailing from Cool Ranch ventured to Darkmoor and meet with what is presumably Grandfather Spider...

"Hunters from all corners of The Spiral came to make English Bill suffer for his crimes. He fled to the world of shadows: the skies of Darkmoor. Bill found an evil spirit there from the Before Time, when there was no Spiral. He sold his soul to it for the power to take his vengeance. Enlgish Bill is no more. All that remains is The Duck of Death: immortal, evil and invulnerable to all harm." -Thunderbird,

During this puppet show (which you can find on YouTube) there is a TON of Spiders and Spider imagery, including red spider eyes much like Grandfather Spider.

To be Continued....

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Continuation:

So I think that Spider is still the most likely culprit because of that sequence/his influence on Morganthe. So if Spider can be found in Darkmoor, Wizards will probably have to go there too if there isn't a further Grizzleheim/Wizard City expansions (or perhaps both). I wonder if in Darkmoor there was essentially a back door to his prison in Khrysalis and either he could leave at anytime, but was just biding his time or if people like English Bill and who knows who all else could come and commune with Spider.

I agree that time is rather difficult to follow in the Spiral-this is further convoluted when one realizes that Wizards have much longer lifespans than regular folks do. (Which may explain why the Drakes and Ambrose remember the Dragonspyre Incident.

Also Spider has three mentioned children, Rat, Scorpion and Bat. Does he have any Grandchildren?

Also Morganthe did NOT sink Celestia by using the Storm Titan. The Celestian's brought the Storm Titan upon themselves. Morganthe just wanted to learn the secrets of Astral Magic. After Celestia sank, it was overrun by the Crabs and Morganthe's minions. Do you have access to any of the in game text that talks about this? I haven't been to Celestia in ages. Or even why we go to Celestia in the first place...

I still wonder if Spider is operating from Darkmoor somewhere....

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
exp613 on Aug 26, 2016 wrote:
Continuation:

So I think that Spider is still the most likely culprit because of that sequence/his influence on Morganthe. So if Spider can be found in Darkmoor, Wizards will probably have to go there too if there isn't a further Grizzleheim/Wizard City expansions (or perhaps both). I wonder if in Darkmoor there was essentially a back door to his prison in Khrysalis and either he could leave at anytime, but was just biding his time or if people like English Bill and who knows who all else could come and commune with Spider.

I agree that time is rather difficult to follow in the Spiral-this is further convoluted when one realizes that Wizards have much longer lifespans than regular folks do. (Which may explain why the Drakes and Ambrose remember the Dragonspyre Incident.

Also Spider has three mentioned children, Rat, Scorpion and Bat. Does he have any Grandchildren?

Also Morganthe did NOT sink Celestia by using the Storm Titan. The Celestian's brought the Storm Titan upon themselves. Morganthe just wanted to learn the secrets of Astral Magic. After Celestia sank, it was overrun by the Crabs and Morganthe's minions. Do you have access to any of the in game text that talks about this? I haven't been to Celestia in ages. Or even why we go to Celestia in the first place...

I still wonder if Spider is operating from Darkmoor somewhere....
On your first note about Tarrak, Baba Yaga often returns to Polaris, Jaki Whisperwind seems to travel to lots of place, I think it's perfectly plausable that Tarrak could visit home for a week and still come back to being the Ice Scholar aboard the Arcanum.

What follows certainly indicates that he only spoke with the Auroracle once, a long time ago, but he says that she inspired him to leave his people, and that's what led him to the Arcanum. This might suggest that he never returned to Polaris, but it's far from being blatant.

I like you taking information from P101, but the problem with that is timelines. It could be that when English Bill went to Darkmoor, that was after we'd freed him from his prison, or at least towards the end of our 2nd arc where he was peaking in power. But, as I say, the likely villain is Old Cob, but I'm trying to think of who it could be.

We've yet to hear any mention of Spider's Grandchildren, but we've only known of his children for 1/5 of an arc, we've known of Bartleby's for 2 arcs and have yet to meet a confirmed Grandchild of his. Only time will tell.

On the note of the Storm Triton, I apologise for my phrasing, but there are only really 3 explanations for their betrayal of Celestia.

1 - It was entirely of their own accord for no reason. I'm not fond of this as an answer because it makes very little sense. Celestia is the sea it had dwelled in for Bartleby-knows how long, and if it won the war for the Celestians then they would no doubt be rewarded.

2 - Morganthe and her armies persuaded them to betray Celestia, by themselves or by proxy.

3 - Astraeus/Ptolemos/Mithraya did it. The most powerful beings we encounter in Celestia, but why would they betray Celestia? Astraeus makes his Celestian loyalty clear in the Trial of the Spheres, and Ptolemos is from Celestia himself. But what of Mithraya? She is the Avatar of the Sun in the Celestian System, and while you may think that means she supports Celestia, think again. I'm out of room.

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
Blaze Sandblade on Aug 27, 2016 wrote:
On your first note about Tarrak, Baba Yaga often returns to Polaris, Jaki Whisperwind seems to travel to lots of place, I think it's perfectly plausable that Tarrak could visit home for a week and still come back to being the Ice Scholar aboard the Arcanum.

What follows certainly indicates that he only spoke with the Auroracle once, a long time ago, but he says that she inspired him to leave his people, and that's what led him to the Arcanum. This might suggest that he never returned to Polaris, but it's far from being blatant.

I like you taking information from P101, but the problem with that is timelines. It could be that when English Bill went to Darkmoor, that was after we'd freed him from his prison, or at least towards the end of our 2nd arc where he was peaking in power. But, as I say, the likely villain is Old Cob, but I'm trying to think of who it could be.

We've yet to hear any mention of Spider's Grandchildren, but we've only known of his children for 1/5 of an arc, we've known of Bartleby's for 2 arcs and have yet to meet a confirmed Grandchild of his. Only time will tell.

On the note of the Storm Triton, I apologise for my phrasing, but there are only really 3 explanations for their betrayal of Celestia.

1 - It was entirely of their own accord for no reason. I'm not fond of this as an answer because it makes very little sense. Celestia is the sea it had dwelled in for Bartleby-knows how long, and if it won the war for the Celestians then they would no doubt be rewarded.

2 - Morganthe and her armies persuaded them to betray Celestia, by themselves or by proxy.

3 - Astraeus/Ptolemos/Mithraya did it. The most powerful beings we encounter in Celestia, but why would they betray Celestia? Astraeus makes his Celestian loyalty clear in the Trial of the Spheres, and Ptolemos is from Celestia himself. But what of Mithraya? She is the Avatar of the Sun in the Celestian System, and while you may think that means she supports Celestia, think again. I'm out of room.
I made a post about Celestia's (unconfirmed) twin planet a while ago, and that pretty much covers a lot of what I like about Celestia. But in the quest 'Celestian Leftovers' it's mentioned by a Celestian that:

'We were undone by an unreliable ally... The Storm Titan. The Storm Titan pulled Celestia beneath the waves, ending the war and hiding Celestia from the Spiral for once and all. Aeons later, we are still locked in a war we cannot win... two warring planets orbiting an ever-burning sun.'

So the Titan did what they did to end the war and hide Celestia from the Spiral. In the Celestian War there were the Celestians, the Morgantines, and Mithraya. The Celestians were based in Celestia, and certainly didn't want the Titan to sink them, so it couldn't have been a Celestian. The Morgantines were based on Celestia's twin planet, and I don't think would have benefitted from Celestia sinking, because they sealed their magic with them. In fact, in the Chancel, Morganthe says:

'I have crossed the sea of centuries to claim what is rightfully mine... Turned this ridiculous Crab Empire against itself. You cannot keep Celestia's magic from me!'

This means she didn't get the magic at the end of the war, presumably because it was trapped beneath the sea, so it probably wasn't a Morgantine who told the Titan to sink Celestia. That leaves Mithraya, but why would she? She's very fiery, pun intended, described as ever-burning, and trying to kill you when you disturb her sanctum. But why? Perhaps she felt bad about releasing getting her father to sink Celestia to end the war. is the combination of , & . If the Titan and the Titan had a Titan child, then Mithraya could have been made too. So why sink Celestia? Perhaps the Celestians had bound the Storm Titan to Celestia. After all. Where, in ANY of the game:

Is the Storm Titan still in Celestia?

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Blaze,

Thank you for the link to your old article. Did you come up with the planet name etc? So where did Morganthe's soldiers come from I wonder? Is it this planet that your describing or I wonder if it's a world we already know. Perhaps El Dorado or a world near there? If Celestia is able to contruct Astral Constructs and El Dorado is supposed to have Shadow Sentinels perhaps the two worlds shared technologies etc.

I agree with you that time is kind of hard to measure. So it is possible that Spider flees to Darkmoor soon after his escape, but that still doesn't explain how he was able to influence Morganthe. Also now I feel almost as if Morganthe's story was cut prematurely. How did she go from seeking Astral Magic to Shadow? I missed that part I guess.

Oh, I guess we do actually know 4 of Bartleby's grandchildren. Ymir's four sons. Which does also beg the question so is like Ymir and the Great Dragon of Dragonspyre like the only Titans or are there more Titans of their respective schools and they were just like the greatest of their kind? There was like Grandmother Dragon or something in that cave isn't there?

It does beg the question of who awoke the Storm Titan (also the Storm Titan is he a Triton or more like Storm Lord?) to sink Celestia? That is probably no easy feat, though perhaps the warring nations are the ones who did it being too loud or something.

As far as the Celestians. I think they are just all regular Celestians, but perhaps their study of their respective magics essentially transformed them to look somewhat different than your regular GI Celestian. I mean Qybern Stellargaze doesn't look quite as formalized as many of the other Celestians that we encounter either.

I imagine that the Storm Titan is still in Celestia perhaps he sunk Celestia to "protect" it from destroying itself before returning to his sleep.

Also, I don't think any of the Arcanum scholars are responsible for Bartleby/Sylvia's sickness- too obvious for any of them.

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
exp613 on Aug 29, 2016 wrote:
Blaze,

Thank you for the link to your old article. Did you come up with the planet name etc? So where did Morganthe's soldiers come from I wonder? Is it this planet that your describing or I wonder if it's a world we already know. Perhaps El Dorado or a world near there? If Celestia is able to contruct Astral Constructs and El Dorado is supposed to have Shadow Sentinels perhaps the two worlds shared technologies etc.

I agree with you that time is kind of hard to measure. So it is possible that Spider flees to Darkmoor soon after his escape, but that still doesn't explain how he was able to influence Morganthe. Also now I feel almost as if Morganthe's story was cut prematurely. How did she go from seeking Astral Magic to Shadow? I missed that part I guess.

Oh, I guess we do actually know 4 of Bartleby's grandchildren. Ymir's four sons. Which does also beg the question so is like Ymir and the Great Dragon of Dragonspyre like the only Titans or are there more Titans of their respective schools and they were just like the greatest of their kind? There was like Grandmother Dragon or something in that cave isn't there?

It does beg the question of who awoke the Storm Titan (also the Storm Titan is he a Triton or more like Storm Lord?) to sink Celestia? That is probably no easy feat, though perhaps the warring nations are the ones who did it being too loud or something.

As far as the Celestians. I think they are just all regular Celestians, but perhaps their study of their respective magics essentially transformed them to look somewhat different than your regular GI Celestian. I mean Qybern Stellargaze doesn't look quite as formalized as many of the other Celestians that we encounter either.

I imagine that the Storm Titan is still in Celestia perhaps he sunk Celestia to "protect" it from destroying itself before returning to his sleep.

Also, I don't think any of the Arcanum scholars are responsible for Bartleby/Sylvia's sickness- too obvious for any of them.
Everything in that second post is completely made up by me, just trying to fill in the gaps (a bit too much). I don't think we've visited that world yet, ZF & AV aren't swarming with Morgantine warriors, AZ was thought gone so I doubt it was there, and KH is mentioned to be like Polaris-far from the Spiral's centre. I doubt it's El Dorado because while Celestia did once have contact with it, they cut off all contact and almost banished the world from the Spiral. It'd be a bit hard to miss El Dorado (as the biggest world) orbiting alongside Celestia.

She never really transitioned from Astral to . She had already gained notoriety as a Spider Queen before we even reached Celestia, as shown by the undead soldiers and Wraiths we see throughout. I think she would have taken to studying while under Merle's tutelage, and contacted Spider or one of his proxies, and then grown to be a Spider Queen and hunt down the mysterious Astral magics of Celestia.

I don't think Ymir would be the last Giant, but he's probably one of the strongest, as he must be kept asleep in order to keep the Spiral intact. Whereas the Triton and Dragon we know of were allies to Celestia and Dragonspyre; Ymir is imprisoned in Wintertusk. I think the Grandmother Dragon is the Dragon of Dragonspyre, and that she is the last of her kind, but we don't know if Ymir and the Celestian Triton are the last of theirs.

I don't strictly think he was woken, but rather he was an ally or a weapon of Celestia's that took residence in their oceans and didn't bother the Celestians until the war. And yes, somewhere in Wizard City it is mentioned the Storm Titans were Tritons.

I think the native Celestians are the alienesque ones like Qyburn, as anything other than them and their protectors say they are from elsewhere (Axenos/Astraeus), and Mithraya is the Sun Avatar.

And it wouldn't be too obvious for a scholar to be responsible. I mean, nobody would suspect Jaki killed Sylvia would they?

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Blaze Sandblade on Aug 30, 2016 wrote:
Everything in that second post is completely made up by me, just trying to fill in the gaps (a bit too much). I don't think we've visited that world yet, ZF & AV aren't swarming with Morgantine warriors, AZ was thought gone so I doubt it was there, and KH is mentioned to be like Polaris-far from the Spiral's centre. I doubt it's El Dorado because while Celestia did once have contact with it, they cut off all contact and almost banished the world from the Spiral. It'd be a bit hard to miss El Dorado (as the biggest world) orbiting alongside Celestia.

She never really transitioned from Astral to . She had already gained notoriety as a Spider Queen before we even reached Celestia, as shown by the undead soldiers and Wraiths we see throughout. I think she would have taken to studying while under Merle's tutelage, and contacted Spider or one of his proxies, and then grown to be a Spider Queen and hunt down the mysterious Astral magics of Celestia.

I don't think Ymir would be the last Giant, but he's probably one of the strongest, as he must be kept asleep in order to keep the Spiral intact. Whereas the Triton and Dragon we know of were allies to Celestia and Dragonspyre; Ymir is imprisoned in Wintertusk. I think the Grandmother Dragon is the Dragon of Dragonspyre, and that she is the last of her kind, but we don't know if Ymir and the Celestian Triton are the last of theirs.

I don't strictly think he was woken, but rather he was an ally or a weapon of Celestia's that took residence in their oceans and didn't bother the Celestians until the war. And yes, somewhere in Wizard City it is mentioned the Storm Titans were Tritons.

I think the native Celestians are the alienesque ones like Qyburn, as anything other than them and their protectors say they are from elsewhere (Axenos/Astraeus), and Mithraya is the Sun Avatar.

And it wouldn't be too obvious for a scholar to be responsible. I mean, nobody would suspect Jaki killed Sylvia would they?
Oh so Morganthe was basically hiding out in Khrysalis while we were in Celestia, Zafaria, Avalon, Azteca and we just went to her house finally when we go to Khrysalis. Ok, that makes sense.

As far as Titans: We talk to the Grandmother of Dragons in that cave via Golem Tower so perhaps that is just a way to communicate with her? Also Bartleby has 3 Children Ymir, The Dragon Titan (Grandmother of Dragon) and the Storm Titan they each then had their own children (which are probably what we summon when we use our spells) Bartleby sung his children to sleep so that would include all 3 so the Storm Titan is asleep.

Axenos was just locked in a box. (Think like the Tardis or the Arcanum and being behind or beneath the Spiral etc.) He is just an advanced Celestian Construct that went a little haywire so the Celestians locked him in the box until we let him out.

Astraeus, Ptolemos and Mithraya maybe their respective Avatars, but what does that mean? Are they just Celestians who were chosen to Guard Astral secrets or are they personifications of those schools as you suggest or something else?

So it's important to realize that when Astraeus and others say:"Though my home was beyond the stars, I have dwelt in this place for time out of mind, serving and waiting. I will not surrender the secrets of Celestia's magic willingly!" That they are referring to the fact that the Celestian Empire used to be above the Celestian Sea (aka Sea of Centuries) It's also important to realize it's very possible the Storm Titan essentially picked them up and dropped them in the giant fishbowl we now call CL. As pre-Titan CL most likely resembled the Celestial Observatory house in Wizard101. This also makes me wonder now what if CL's twin world was the Oceanic Fishbowl that it now resides in? That would explain why we are seemingly unable to find it's twin world...

It may also be that Morganthe's Army are the remnants of DS as they do look and behave similar to some DS characters.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Blaze Sandblade on Aug 30, 2016 wrote:
Everything in that second post is completely made up by me, just trying to fill in the gaps (a bit too much). I don't think we've visited that world yet, ZF & AV aren't swarming with Morgantine warriors, AZ was thought gone so I doubt it was there, and KH is mentioned to be like Polaris-far from the Spiral's centre. I doubt it's El Dorado because while Celestia did once have contact with it, they cut off all contact and almost banished the world from the Spiral. It'd be a bit hard to miss El Dorado (as the biggest world) orbiting alongside Celestia.

She never really transitioned from Astral to . She had already gained notoriety as a Spider Queen before we even reached Celestia, as shown by the undead soldiers and Wraiths we see throughout. I think she would have taken to studying while under Merle's tutelage, and contacted Spider or one of his proxies, and then grown to be a Spider Queen and hunt down the mysterious Astral magics of Celestia.

I don't think Ymir would be the last Giant, but he's probably one of the strongest, as he must be kept asleep in order to keep the Spiral intact. Whereas the Triton and Dragon we know of were allies to Celestia and Dragonspyre; Ymir is imprisoned in Wintertusk. I think the Grandmother Dragon is the Dragon of Dragonspyre, and that she is the last of her kind, but we don't know if Ymir and the Celestian Triton are the last of theirs.

I don't strictly think he was woken, but rather he was an ally or a weapon of Celestia's that took residence in their oceans and didn't bother the Celestians until the war. And yes, somewhere in Wizard City it is mentioned the Storm Titans were Tritons.

I think the native Celestians are the alienesque ones like Qyburn, as anything other than them and their protectors say they are from elsewhere (Axenos/Astraeus), and Mithraya is the Sun Avatar.

And it wouldn't be too obvious for a scholar to be responsible. I mean, nobody would suspect Jaki killed Sylvia would they?
Sorry ran out of room...

So maybe DS is CL's sister world? In that would explain why Morganthe's Army resembles the DS Army (minus the bugs etc.) It's also possible that Morganthe's Army is an amalgamation of Khrysalis inhabitants (bugs) and Dragonspyre refugees. Continue your military strategies under the new Umbra legion?

So we know that there were the Polarian Wars between MQ, MB, VL and PL. Weren't there like Dragon Wars involving Dragonspyre? As in I wonder who they went around fighting being a military powerhouse and all. Or were they just on Dragon abatement duty?

As far as scholars cursing Bartleby or Sylvia- why? They probably don't know Sylvia and what would be the purpose to do that? So Moolinda could be Life Professor? (Hmm, that's an idea, perhaps they wanted Moolinda to leave MS for some reason she was going to be like Chief of Gardening for the Emperor before she took the Life teacher position). I suppose it could be one of the Arcanum scholars, I just don't see it, being one of them unless they are being controlled by Spider. However, I still don't think it is them. I mean just because you are from somewhere doesn't necessarily mean you are bad. Just because you are from Japan does that mean you were integral in the bombing of Pearl Harbor? No, in fact probably not even.

Also how old is Morganthe? I mean Merle is plenty old, but Morganthe was going to be his first graduate of Ravenwood had she not went all ballistic and he had to take away her wand and deck. We don't know when DS was destroyed, but Malistaire (and presumably the other Drakes) were at Ravenwood during Morganthe's brief tenure there. We fight Malistaire and she obviously wasn't very happy with him when they were dueling so maybe she is the one that caused Sylvia's illness out of spite to Malistaire and in an attempt to fulfill Spider's wishes of awakening a Titan? So perhaps it was Morganthe again with Bartleby, which would suggest she survived her fall from the Shadow Palace.

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
exp613 on Aug 30, 2016 wrote:
Oh so Morganthe was basically hiding out in Khrysalis while we were in Celestia, Zafaria, Avalon, Azteca and we just went to her house finally when we go to Khrysalis. Ok, that makes sense.

As far as Titans: We talk to the Grandmother of Dragons in that cave via Golem Tower so perhaps that is just a way to communicate with her? Also Bartleby has 3 Children Ymir, The Dragon Titan (Grandmother of Dragon) and the Storm Titan they each then had their own children (which are probably what we summon when we use our spells) Bartleby sung his children to sleep so that would include all 3 so the Storm Titan is asleep.

Axenos was just locked in a box. (Think like the Tardis or the Arcanum and being behind or beneath the Spiral etc.) He is just an advanced Celestian Construct that went a little haywire so the Celestians locked him in the box until we let him out.

Astraeus, Ptolemos and Mithraya maybe their respective Avatars, but what does that mean? Are they just Celestians who were chosen to Guard Astral secrets or are they personifications of those schools as you suggest or something else?

So it's important to realize that when Astraeus and others say:"Though my home was beyond the stars, I have dwelt in this place for time out of mind, serving and waiting. I will not surrender the secrets of Celestia's magic willingly!" That they are referring to the fact that the Celestian Empire used to be above the Celestian Sea (aka Sea of Centuries) It's also important to realize it's very possible the Storm Titan essentially picked them up and dropped them in the giant fishbowl we now call CL. As pre-Titan CL most likely resembled the Celestial Observatory house in Wizard101. This also makes me wonder now what if CL's twin world was the Oceanic Fishbowl that it now resides in? That would explain why we are seemingly unable to find it's twin world...

It may also be that Morganthe's Army are the remnants of DS as they do look and behave similar to some DS characters.
I think Morganthe started in Avalon with her brother and plotted to steal the crown, but that didn't work so she fled towards Khrysalis to get closer to Spider and gather an army of sorts. Then she spread her control to Zafaria and found soldiers in Dragonspyre to join her empire. When she was banished from Zafaria by the Council of Light, she took her Shadow Wraith & Dragonspyre Soldier army to Celestia in pursuit of new magic. Then we turn up after the Celestian war and meet Morganthe who'd just taken Astral knowledge and fled to retake Zafaria so we find her there while trying to save some Ravenwood students, but she takes her Deck of Shadows and leaves. I'm only in Zafaria rn, so I won't try to explain past it, but I think that's the history of Morganthe until then.

In terms of Titans, we're told Bartleby sang the 'Dragons, Giants & Tritons' into existence, so I don't think he only had 3. But maybe when he sang them to sleep, Ymir was kept asleep in Wintertusk, Malistaire and the Dark Mages of Dragonspyre woke Grandmother Dragon more than once, and the Celestians must've woken the Storm Triton to fight Morganthe. But while we know Ymir is still sleeping, the other two are loose ends from the 1st & 2nd arcs.

Actually Axenos 'roamed the Spiral, stellar winds at my back, lunar light to guide me... and solar fire in my grasp. The Celestians bound me, banished me to a Place That Was Not a Place, a prison with no walls'. So I think Axenos was originally from beyond Celestia, but was trapped in a mysterious 'Place That Was Not a Place' (El Dorado?) until we summoned and defeated them in the body of a Celestian Protector.

Well, as I said, Ptolemos was a native Celestian adept in magic; Astraeus' home 'was beyond the stars'; and Mithraya is an Avatar of the Sun. That is to say, she is the sun in a humanoid body. I think Astraeus was from a completely different world. Also, the twin world would likely be completely different and abandoned.

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
exp613 on Aug 31, 2016 wrote:
Sorry ran out of room...

So maybe DS is CL's sister world? In that would explain why Morganthe's Army resembles the DS Army (minus the bugs etc.) It's also possible that Morganthe's Army is an amalgamation of Khrysalis inhabitants (bugs) and Dragonspyre refugees. Continue your military strategies under the new Umbra legion?

So we know that there were the Polarian Wars between MQ, MB, VL and PL. Weren't there like Dragon Wars involving Dragonspyre? As in I wonder who they went around fighting being a military powerhouse and all. Or were they just on Dragon abatement duty?

As far as scholars cursing Bartleby or Sylvia- why? They probably don't know Sylvia and what would be the purpose to do that? So Moolinda could be Life Professor? (Hmm, that's an idea, perhaps they wanted Moolinda to leave MS for some reason she was going to be like Chief of Gardening for the Emperor before she took the Life teacher position). I suppose it could be one of the Arcanum scholars, I just don't see it, being one of them unless they are being controlled by Spider. However, I still don't think it is them. I mean just because you are from somewhere doesn't necessarily mean you are bad. Just because you are from Japan does that mean you were integral in the bombing of Pearl Harbor? No, in fact probably not even.

Also how old is Morganthe? I mean Merle is plenty old, but Morganthe was going to be his first graduate of Ravenwood had she not went all ballistic and he had to take away her wand and deck. We don't know when DS was destroyed, but Malistaire (and presumably the other Drakes) were at Ravenwood during Morganthe's brief tenure there. We fight Malistaire and she obviously wasn't very happy with him when they were dueling so maybe she is the one that caused Sylvia's illness out of spite to Malistaire and in an attempt to fulfill Spider's wishes of awakening a Titan? So perhaps it was Morganthe again with Bartleby, which would suggest she survived her fall from the Shadow Palace.
I ran out of room too.

That's a good theory about DS/CL, except if you remember the El Dorado post from a while ago, Marco Pollo's map has Dragonspyre close to Valencia and Mooshu while Celestia is distant from almost every world. I think now that KH could have been Celestia's twin, in fact, they could've been charged with keeping Spider trapped there by Raven.

About the Polarian Wars and Dragonspyre, Dragonspyre had its own internal struggles but ran a military academy rather than a huge army. Most of the soldiers we see would've been purely for defense or as teachers at the academy.

Maybe they didn't do it for Moolinda to become a teacher, but more likely to make Malistaire free the Fire Dragon from Dragonspyre. After all, a few posts ago we were talking about someone masterminding over Malistaire, the Coven and Mithraya/Morganthe to free the Titans. And also, we don't know how many of the Arcanum are our idea of good. Velma seems to be good, and Ignus, Tarrak, Zander & Jaki seem nice too. But Ione could turn out to be rather strict and perhaps evil (but she could be the second Cyrus Drake), or Qismah might betray us in Mirage; maybe Baba Yaga or Qyburn work for Spider. My point is, none of them seem outright evil, but that's what makes a great villain. And it wouldn't be the first time a deuteragonist betrayed us in this game.

And Morganthe is old enough to have gotten (presumably) living soldiers from Dragonspyre and to have destroyed Celestia. Could you perhaps link to Morganthe's 'brief tenure' in Wizard City so I could reply better.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Blaze Sandblade on Aug 31, 2016 wrote:
I think Morganthe started in Avalon with her brother and plotted to steal the crown, but that didn't work so she fled towards Khrysalis to get closer to Spider and gather an army of sorts. Then she spread her control to Zafaria and found soldiers in Dragonspyre to join her empire. When she was banished from Zafaria by the Council of Light, she took her Shadow Wraith & Dragonspyre Soldier army to Celestia in pursuit of new magic. Then we turn up after the Celestian war and meet Morganthe who'd just taken Astral knowledge and fled to retake Zafaria so we find her there while trying to save some Ravenwood students, but she takes her Deck of Shadows and leaves. I'm only in Zafaria rn, so I won't try to explain past it, but I think that's the history of Morganthe until then.

In terms of Titans, we're told Bartleby sang the 'Dragons, Giants & Tritons' into existence, so I don't think he only had 3. But maybe when he sang them to sleep, Ymir was kept asleep in Wintertusk, Malistaire and the Dark Mages of Dragonspyre woke Grandmother Dragon more than once, and the Celestians must've woken the Storm Triton to fight Morganthe. But while we know Ymir is still sleeping, the other two are loose ends from the 1st & 2nd arcs.

Actually Axenos 'roamed the Spiral, stellar winds at my back, lunar light to guide me... and solar fire in my grasp. The Celestians bound me, banished me to a Place That Was Not a Place, a prison with no walls'. So I think Axenos was originally from beyond Celestia, but was trapped in a mysterious 'Place That Was Not a Place' (El Dorado?) until we summoned and defeated them in the body of a Celestian Protector.

Well, as I said, Ptolemos was a native Celestian adept in magic; Astraeus' home 'was beyond the stars'; and Mithraya is an Avatar of the Sun. That is to say, she is the sun in a humanoid body. I think Astraeus was from a completely different world. Also, the twin world would likely be completely different and abandoned.
I agree for the most part about Morganthe in this post. I also agree that Bartleby had more than the three children. The rest, I strongly disagree with, sorry. Here's why:

However, the Titan's HAVE to be asleep. The Titans are each asleep. The reason for this is that if ANY one of the powerful one's Ymir, Dragonspyre Dragon or the Storm Titan were awoken it would essentially result in an Armageddon for the Spiral. Especially if the other titans were not there to keep it in check. (Everwinter, Fireblasted everything or flooded etc.) and that would apply to the whole spiral.

Axenos is still a Celestian Construct and probably just "roamed the Spiral" before he went rouge and the Celestians had to trap him in the box. Also again, it's essentially just a box. Think like a genie being stuck in a lamp because that would be a "Place That Was Not a Place".

So I don't think Mithraya is "embodied sun". Nor is Astraeus from a different world. I'm sorry, but all 3 Avatars are essentially the same level. So they are all embodiments of their respecitive elements (which I highly doubt) or they are all Celestians that are masters of their schools (more likely). I still think that the twin World could be essentially "the Fishbowl" that Celestia is found in.

It could be any one of the Arcanum scholars, but I just don't think so. They are all supposed to be "Protectors of the Spiral" but yeah it could. I just think for them to be working with Spider is too awkward. Velma is supposed to be a Shadow Scholar so she'd probably notice if any of them were tainted with shadow no? (Unless maybe it's her.) Also we haven't met the Director of the Arcanum (Merle?) whoever that would be/if there is one. I agree that Malistaire was probably manipulated. I'll post link in another post. It's from a quest in Khrysalis.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Blaze,

Here is the link.

http://www.wizard101central.com/wiki/Quest:A_Dream_of_Wizard_City#axzz4JPH3hku1

This quest is a 3 part quest in KH. with this one being the faceoff with Malistaire.

Also the Auroracle is female as when she isn't referred to as "The Auroracle" feminine pronouns are used universally by all that know her. (She also has a female voice.)

She is also most likely a single entity instead of a force, but that is more open for debate. Here is a link to her dialogue with the Wizard.

Sorry, I'll be back to regular communications soon, I have spotty internet service (hence the delay of this post.)

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
exp613 on Sep 2, 2016 wrote:
I agree for the most part about Morganthe in this post. I also agree that Bartleby had more than the three children. The rest, I strongly disagree with, sorry. Here's why:

However, the Titan's HAVE to be asleep. The Titans are each asleep. The reason for this is that if ANY one of the powerful one's Ymir, Dragonspyre Dragon or the Storm Titan were awoken it would essentially result in an Armageddon for the Spiral. Especially if the other titans were not there to keep it in check. (Everwinter, Fireblasted everything or flooded etc.) and that would apply to the whole spiral.

Axenos is still a Celestian Construct and probably just "roamed the Spiral" before he went rouge and the Celestians had to trap him in the box. Also again, it's essentially just a box. Think like a genie being stuck in a lamp because that would be a "Place That Was Not a Place".

So I don't think Mithraya is "embodied sun". Nor is Astraeus from a different world. I'm sorry, but all 3 Avatars are essentially the same level. So they are all embodiments of their respecitive elements (which I highly doubt) or they are all Celestians that are masters of their schools (more likely). I still think that the twin World could be essentially "the Fishbowl" that Celestia is found in.

It could be any one of the Arcanum scholars, but I just don't think so. They are all supposed to be "Protectors of the Spiral" but yeah it could. I just think for them to be working with Spider is too awkward. Velma is supposed to be a Shadow Scholar so she'd probably notice if any of them were tainted with shadow no? (Unless maybe it's her.) Also we haven't met the Director of the Arcanum (Merle?) whoever that would be/if there is one. I agree that Malistaire was probably manipulated. I'll post link in another post. It's from a quest in Khrysalis.
I did make a response to this, but for whatever reason it never showed up. Well, anyway, not every Titan has to be kept asleep. The Grandmother Dragon, said to be the last of her kind, felt horrible about the war, and even horrible about how what she and her children did to Dragonspyre was similar to the great war; so she wouldn't start another war or want to even harm other worlds. Ymir is kept asleep, presumably because he won the Titan War and his arrogance would turn him to violence, but perhaps other Ice Giants, his children or siblings, would be kinder. But about the Storm Titan, they lost the war, and has been shown to be capable of taking down a world for little to no reason. So we must assume Morganthe and her armies killed, controlled or allied with them after the fall of Celestia. Perhaps they're currently working for Spider in Empyrea or the Broken Shores.

I still think Axenos was more than just another construct, but it's a matter of opinion as there's very little told about them, so I'll drop it.

Ptolemos is clearly the same race as other Celestians we meet, and insantly Astraeus and Mithraya look completely different to him. Astraeus himself says 'Though my home was beyond the stars', meaning he's from at least another world, likely far from Celestia. And Mithraya's design is clearly meant to symbolise the Sun, and she looks no more like a Celestian than a Zafarian. Also, 'the Fishbowl' or Celestia is Celestia, it's just the lands were sunk beneath the waves by the Storm Titan. The domes were summoned to save the magic and the water is just Celestia's sea(s). The other world would have been Morganthe's base, and is probably a world we've yet to see.

Again, everything points to Spider, but I made this post to think about what powerful Thaumaturges or Necromancers from Polaris do we know? And instantly Tarrak came to mind. I don't see the importance of Malistaire in Khrysalis, but the Auroracle calls themself 'we' twice and 'me' once. I'm out of room.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Blaze Sandblade on Sep 6, 2016 wrote:
I did make a response to this, but for whatever reason it never showed up. Well, anyway, not every Titan has to be kept asleep. The Grandmother Dragon, said to be the last of her kind, felt horrible about the war, and even horrible about how what she and her children did to Dragonspyre was similar to the great war; so she wouldn't start another war or want to even harm other worlds. Ymir is kept asleep, presumably because he won the Titan War and his arrogance would turn him to violence, but perhaps other Ice Giants, his children or siblings, would be kinder. But about the Storm Titan, they lost the war, and has been shown to be capable of taking down a world for little to no reason. So we must assume Morganthe and her armies killed, controlled or allied with them after the fall of Celestia. Perhaps they're currently working for Spider in Empyrea or the Broken Shores.

I still think Axenos was more than just another construct, but it's a matter of opinion as there's very little told about them, so I'll drop it.

Ptolemos is clearly the same race as other Celestians we meet, and insantly Astraeus and Mithraya look completely different to him. Astraeus himself says 'Though my home was beyond the stars', meaning he's from at least another world, likely far from Celestia. And Mithraya's design is clearly meant to symbolise the Sun, and she looks no more like a Celestian than a Zafarian. Also, 'the Fishbowl' or Celestia is Celestia, it's just the lands were sunk beneath the waves by the Storm Titan. The domes were summoned to save the magic and the water is just Celestia's sea(s). The other world would have been Morganthe's base, and is probably a world we've yet to see.

Again, everything points to Spider, but I made this post to think about what powerful Thaumaturges or Necromancers from Polaris do we know? And instantly Tarrak came to mind. I don't see the importance of Malistaire in Khrysalis, but the Auroracle calls themself 'we' twice and 'me' once. I'm out of room.
Blaze,

Yes, the Titan's have to be kept asleep, or they would fragment the Spiral. (That is why Rasputin created the Borealis Gemstone Titan to fracture the Sky Anchor.) Ymir we both agree is asleep. However there is no indication that Grandmother Dragon is peaceful as you suggest it just says she is old and alone, really much like Ymir. (I think it's important to realize that the ICE, FIRE and STORM Titans are all essentially equal and opposite and that is what keeps them in Balance. (Balance draws upon the fact that they are all equal to each other, granted equal doesn't mean exactly, the same, but that's another topic.) Anyway, the Grandmother Dragon would terrorize the Spiral just as much as Ymir or The Storm Titan would, as she gives no inclination of not doing so and when she was awake she destroyed DS. (Whether this is intentional or not doesn't matter too much to the rest of the spiral's inhabitants that can't withstand the force of the fire magic unleashed.)

The Storm Titan has to also be asleep. It can't be working for Spider in Polaris/Empreya/Mirage/anywhere (I mean maybe in the future, but not at the time of Polaris) or Rasputin wouldn't have needed to spend all that time trying to create the Borealis Gemstone Titan. (Remember all the little Experiment ones you have to battle?) The Storm Titan is also asleep somewhere is still my opinion.

We will have to disagree about Axenos and regardless, I don't think he's majorly important (he's from a side quest).

I still think that the Celestian Avatars are just normal Celestians that specialize in their respective magics all of them. They are essentially different breeds, but same species, much like how in MB we have dogs, but they are German Shepards, Bulldogs, Beagles, Retrievers, Terriers etc. Where exactly are the stars in the spiral? Are they inbetween worlds at all or just on the outer edge? I don't know. Probably both.

To Be Continued....

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Blaze Sandblade on Sep 6, 2016 wrote:
I did make a response to this, but for whatever reason it never showed up. Well, anyway, not every Titan has to be kept asleep. The Grandmother Dragon, said to be the last of her kind, felt horrible about the war, and even horrible about how what she and her children did to Dragonspyre was similar to the great war; so she wouldn't start another war or want to even harm other worlds. Ymir is kept asleep, presumably because he won the Titan War and his arrogance would turn him to violence, but perhaps other Ice Giants, his children or siblings, would be kinder. But about the Storm Titan, they lost the war, and has been shown to be capable of taking down a world for little to no reason. So we must assume Morganthe and her armies killed, controlled or allied with them after the fall of Celestia. Perhaps they're currently working for Spider in Empyrea or the Broken Shores.

I still think Axenos was more than just another construct, but it's a matter of opinion as there's very little told about them, so I'll drop it.

Ptolemos is clearly the same race as other Celestians we meet, and insantly Astraeus and Mithraya look completely different to him. Astraeus himself says 'Though my home was beyond the stars', meaning he's from at least another world, likely far from Celestia. And Mithraya's design is clearly meant to symbolise the Sun, and she looks no more like a Celestian than a Zafarian. Also, 'the Fishbowl' or Celestia is Celestia, it's just the lands were sunk beneath the waves by the Storm Titan. The domes were summoned to save the magic and the water is just Celestia's sea(s). The other world would have been Morganthe's base, and is probably a world we've yet to see.

Again, everything points to Spider, but I made this post to think about what powerful Thaumaturges or Necromancers from Polaris do we know? And instantly Tarrak came to mind. I don't see the importance of Malistaire in Khrysalis, but the Auroracle calls themself 'we' twice and 'me' once. I'm out of room.
The Auroracle could have been referring to herself and someone else unseen (Raven perhaps, us as the Wizard and we just don't know it?) It's also possible that she is purposefully ambiguous because she can project her energy to multiple places etc. So for the sake of simplicity, she calls herself a she (and so does everyone else.) Also she could be referring to herself and her Luphilium protectors (winged wolf things) known as Viligants (sorry about spelling on those two words).

So just because the spell came from Polarian Winds that chilled Bartleby, it's entirely possible the caster is not from Polaris, which brings me to the reason why I mentioned Morganthe's memory of Malistaire. I think that it could have been Morganthe that cast this curse, by forcing the Auroracle to cast the curse on Bartleby. Did she set this up before or is it since she fell into the void I don't know. However, she was probably the one who did end up sending the curse to Sylvia Drake. I get the feeling from that Memory in Khrysalis of Wizard City that her number one enemy was Merle and number two enemy was none other than Malistaire from that and presumeably other altercations. I think Morganthe out of her hatred for Malistaire sent that cold to Sylvia (Malistaire's most prized possession and greatest weakness) which essentially allowed her a way to try and get Spider a Titan (planting the idea that the Fire Titan could restore Sylvia in Malistaire's mind.) and also score a personal bit of revenge at Malistaire for him treating herwith disrespect, attempting to take away her wand and deck and being a minion for Ambrose.

Just a theory and sorry if it doesn't make total sense, I'm typing in a hurry. Looking forward to your response.

exp613

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
exp613 on Sep 8, 2016 wrote:
Blaze,

Yes, the Titan's have to be kept asleep, or they would fragment the Spiral. (That is why Rasputin created the Borealis Gemstone Titan to fracture the Sky Anchor.) Ymir we both agree is asleep. However there is no indication that Grandmother Dragon is peaceful as you suggest it just says she is old and alone, really much like Ymir. (I think it's important to realize that the ICE, FIRE and STORM Titans are all essentially equal and opposite and that is what keeps them in Balance. (Balance draws upon the fact that they are all equal to each other, granted equal doesn't mean exactly, the same, but that's another topic.) Anyway, the Grandmother Dragon would terrorize the Spiral just as much as Ymir or The Storm Titan would, as she gives no inclination of not doing so and when she was awake she destroyed DS. (Whether this is intentional or not doesn't matter too much to the rest of the spiral's inhabitants that can't withstand the force of the fire magic unleashed.)

The Storm Titan has to also be asleep. It can't be working for Spider in Polaris/Empreya/Mirage/anywhere (I mean maybe in the future, but not at the time of Polaris) or Rasputin wouldn't have needed to spend all that time trying to create the Borealis Gemstone Titan. (Remember all the little Experiment ones you have to battle?) The Storm Titan is also asleep somewhere is still my opinion.

We will have to disagree about Axenos and regardless, I don't think he's majorly important (he's from a side quest).

I still think that the Celestian Avatars are just normal Celestians that specialize in their respective magics all of them. They are essentially different breeds, but same species, much like how in MB we have dogs, but they are German Shepards, Bulldogs, Beagles, Retrievers, Terriers etc. Where exactly are the stars in the spiral? Are they inbetween worlds at all or just on the outer edge? I don't know. Probably both.

To Be Continued....
I still disagree about the Titans. Ymir is kept asleep by powerful magic in Wintertusk, but Grandmother Dragon seems to have been sleeping peacefully and without outside intervention. I mean, after the mages of Dragonspyre woke her, she destroyed the world and then... She must've gone back to sleep of her own accord as nobody would've dared try their magic against her. And also, she only attacked Dragonspyre because they actively threatened her and wanted her and her children gone, she wouldn't attempt to battle Ymir or the Storm Triton as she knows she is the last of her kind, but it's unknown if there are more Giants or Tritons. I honestly don't think she'd risk it, and if she tried to attack the worlds of the Spiral, then Bartleby or Raven, maybe even Spider or his spawn, could defeat her. To me, she seems very peaceful. About the Storm Triton, they could be working for Spider but not for Rat. It's not impossible to think. And they aren't mentioned to have been defeated or subdued by Morganthe or Mithraya, so I think it's possible for the Storm Triton to have either been put to sleep (unmentioned) or fled from Celestia (also unmentioned).

And about the trio of Celestia, I can understand you still grouping Mithraya in with Ptolemos, even though I disagree, but Astraeus himself says he's from elsewhere. As such, it would make more sense for all 3 to be different, rather than just having all Celestian natives, some Morgantine soldiers and one boss from another world in Celestia. And idk about the stars, some worlds have them, but I think only Celestia has it as a plot point.

The Auroracle's gender or number is pretty irrelevant, so we can just refer to them/her as the Auroracle or whichever way we prefer personally. I don't think Morganthe would've survived like Malistaire did. Death seems to be quite easily manipulated in-game, but falling from Shadow could be much more permanent. I still think a Polarian infected Bartleby and possibly Sylvia too.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1268
Blaze Sandblade on Sep 9, 2016 wrote:
I still disagree about the Titans. Ymir is kept asleep by powerful magic in Wintertusk, but Grandmother Dragon seems to have been sleeping peacefully and without outside intervention. I mean, after the mages of Dragonspyre woke her, she destroyed the world and then... She must've gone back to sleep of her own accord as nobody would've dared try their magic against her. And also, she only attacked Dragonspyre because they actively threatened her and wanted her and her children gone, she wouldn't attempt to battle Ymir or the Storm Triton as she knows she is the last of her kind, but it's unknown if there are more Giants or Tritons. I honestly don't think she'd risk it, and if she tried to attack the worlds of the Spiral, then Bartleby or Raven, maybe even Spider or his spawn, could defeat her. To me, she seems very peaceful. About the Storm Triton, they could be working for Spider but not for Rat. It's not impossible to think. And they aren't mentioned to have been defeated or subdued by Morganthe or Mithraya, so I think it's possible for the Storm Triton to have either been put to sleep (unmentioned) or fled from Celestia (also unmentioned).

And about the trio of Celestia, I can understand you still grouping Mithraya in with Ptolemos, even though I disagree, but Astraeus himself says he's from elsewhere. As such, it would make more sense for all 3 to be different, rather than just having all Celestian natives, some Morgantine soldiers and one boss from another world in Celestia. And idk about the stars, some worlds have them, but I think only Celestia has it as a plot point.

The Auroracle's gender or number is pretty irrelevant, so we can just refer to them/her as the Auroracle or whichever way we prefer personally. I don't think Morganthe would've survived like Malistaire did. Death seems to be quite easily manipulated in-game, but falling from Shadow could be much more permanent. I still think a Polarian infected Bartleby and possibly Sylvia too.
Well, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about Titans (The Friendly Necromancer also states that the Dragons were "the most warlike".) and Celestian Avatars. (You're right that I think they all come from the same plane of existence). I just don't understand why you want to call the Auroracle "they" when it's clearly "she" however, it's introducing confusion that doesn't really need to be there. I guess we'll lay that aside too. So back to the Theurgist and Polaris bits...

I don't know, I can see Morganthe very easily making a return, (shadow Malistaire?) maybe as like a shade or apparition if not truly Morganthe. I do think she is valuable to Spider, even if it's just out of undying loyalty to Shadow. However, yeah she could be gone too. I think that they way overplayed Malistaire coming back (I mean THREE TIMES?!? That is a little ridiculous, having him back in Darkmoor one time OR Xiabalba would be fine, but not both really, in my opinion.) Anyway, that does bring up another person who could have done it that is perhaps even more obvious than the others we talked about, (maybe not for Sylvia, but for cursing Bartleby) which is none other than Rasputin.

Rasputin does seem to have mastery over and is proficient in & (he also knows & , but perhaps to a lesser extent.) If Rasputin is attempting to disrupt the Sky Anchor, perhaps not only was he trying to smash it with a Titan, but also trying to weaken Bartleby's hold on it by making him ill? That would make sense and given that Rasputin knows , &, I feel that makes him a very likely candidate to be Spider's pawn in this instance.

Was The Rat have been the result of Sylvia's death? Maybe, but he was locked up in the whole like Spider, so it's rather doubtful. Which brings me back to it could have been Morganthe. Morganthe and The Rat would have both had access to and & magic from Spider and possibly elsewhere. (Morganthe is predominantly & , but also has proficiency in &.

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
exp613 on Sep 9, 2016 wrote:
Well, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about Titans (The Friendly Necromancer also states that the Dragons were "the most warlike".) and Celestian Avatars. (You're right that I think they all come from the same plane of existence). I just don't understand why you want to call the Auroracle "they" when it's clearly "she" however, it's introducing confusion that doesn't really need to be there. I guess we'll lay that aside too. So back to the Theurgist and Polaris bits...

I don't know, I can see Morganthe very easily making a return, (shadow Malistaire?) maybe as like a shade or apparition if not truly Morganthe. I do think she is valuable to Spider, even if it's just out of undying loyalty to Shadow. However, yeah she could be gone too. I think that they way overplayed Malistaire coming back (I mean THREE TIMES?!? That is a little ridiculous, having him back in Darkmoor one time OR Xiabalba would be fine, but not both really, in my opinion.) Anyway, that does bring up another person who could have done it that is perhaps even more obvious than the others we talked about, (maybe not for Sylvia, but for cursing Bartleby) which is none other than Rasputin.

Rasputin does seem to have mastery over and is proficient in & (he also knows & , but perhaps to a lesser extent.) If Rasputin is attempting to disrupt the Sky Anchor, perhaps not only was he trying to smash it with a Titan, but also trying to weaken Bartleby's hold on it by making him ill? That would make sense and given that Rasputin knows , &, I feel that makes him a very likely candidate to be Spider's pawn in this instance.

Was The Rat have been the result of Sylvia's death? Maybe, but he was locked up in the whole like Spider, so it's rather doubtful. Which brings me back to it could have been Morganthe. Morganthe and The Rat would have both had access to and & magic from Spider and possibly elsewhere. (Morganthe is predominantly & , but also has proficiency in &.
I agree Malistaire was overused, but he was defeated by us, and presumably died in the process and joined his wife in the afterlife. Then in Azteca, Morganthe summoned him from Death using Shadow, and I think the same thing happened with Darkmoor. But the thing is, Death and death are different things in-game. Because Death is the magic, the necromancy, the manipulation of death. And death is the act of dying. So there are many times in game where Death overrides death, and that kind of makes sense. But Morganthe was destroyed at the peak of her power, atop her Shadow Web empire, and fell from not only life, but from death, and beyond the Spiral and Shadow. I think we could visit her again, perhaps through Grand Chasm style chronomancy, but I doubt she'll be brought back in the future of the timeline.

If the incidents are linked, then Rat, Spider, Scorpion & Bat are instantly disqalified, but it could have been a proxy. If the incidents aren't linked then I still doubt it's Rat, as we go to Polaris, find and defeat the Rat, done. Of course they'll undoubtedly come back in the future of the 3rd arc (likely in a 4th or 5th world), but I think a more powerful player would be behind it if it were Spider or his spawn. I don't think it'd be the Scorpion as they (from the description of a warlord & alchemist) seem like they would head straight to the world they've been dying to kill. I doubt they'd take the scenic route to Mirage and stop by Polaris to curse Bartleby. The Bat is another story, if Sylvia & Bartleby are linked, then obviously both Bat and Spider can't have done it, but Bat and Spider have a much too striking resemblance. The closeness to shadow and trickery makes me think that the Bat could be the Titan, and I don't know if they're responsible.

About Morganthe, I doubt she was responsible. Timelines are tricky, particularly around DS & CL, but I think Sylvia died before Morganthe allied with Spider.