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The Advantage of Going First

AuthorMessage
Survivor
May 26, 2012
16
I noticed there are some members still complaining about the advantage of going first. I agree it is more difficult to win from second, but not impossible. However since this seems to still be an issue, I will propose an idea to try and counter this.

So, I thought it over and I think the main reason first place has the advantage is because they have the element of surprise (more or less).

So here is my idea to make things more fair: The team/player going first has the regular time limit to choose their card. Once the card is chosen, the team/player going second has 10 seconds to view the card and change their own card should they choose to do so.

I see this as fair because this way everyone knows what the other side is doing before they have their own turn.

My other suggestion is to give the people going second another pip first round.

Please let me know what you think! Thanks c:

-Maria

Explorer
Dec 23, 2010
52
No! This is just awful! I strongly disagree. If the first person chooses to attack, the second person can heal directly after. In fact, now the second person has the advantage. There will never be a "fair" way.

Just cross your fingers and hope you go first!

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
What you suggest is novel, creative, and thanks for trying to get to the bottom of a problem that has been with us since Wiz101's first day.

My initial concern is that some spells are actually built to honor the element of surprise, like dispels and Beguile, and with the edits you suggest, they would all but lose their impact. Seeing what move was coming, a player would simply say "Oh, a dispel. I'll switch to using something that won't make me lose my pips," or "Oh, a Beguile, I will just avoid doing anything that gives the opponent an advantage."

It would also be interesting to see how duels would change with regard to Feint and large DoT spells, since your suggestion effectively gives the second player all the advantages of the first player. Second player could simply add a shield, cast Remove Trap, Curse Pact, Empower, or Sacrifice to remove a Feint, and Triage or Availing Hands could defeat a DoT. However, the player going first would still have the advantage with large one-hit attacks and combos, since the second player would be able to see--but not respond in advance to--a large incoming hit.

In sum, changing the battle engine this way does not completely resolve the issue, and introduces other problems. Rather than changing the battle engine at all, my ongoing suggestion is to more or less democratize who goes first, giving players a spell that allows them to change which side of the duel circle goes first. That thread is here: https://www.wizard101.com/forum/the-dorms/spell-to-change-who-goes-first-in-duels-8ad6a415407c1977014088784f986826.

Defender
Apr 07, 2011
156
Warlord Maria on Jan 25, 2014 wrote:
I noticed there are some members still complaining about the advantage of going first. I agree it is more difficult to win from second, but not impossible. However since this seems to still be an issue, I will propose an idea to try and counter this.

So, I thought it over and I think the main reason first place has the advantage is because they have the element of surprise (more or less).

So here is my idea to make things more fair: The team/player going first has the regular time limit to choose their card. Once the card is chosen, the team/player going second has 10 seconds to view the card and change their own card should they choose to do so.

I see this as fair because this way everyone knows what the other side is doing before they have their own turn.

My other suggestion is to give the people going second another pip first round.

Please let me know what you think! Thanks c:

-Maria
Very bad idea, pvp is just good as it is.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
195
Warlord Maria on Jan 25, 2014 wrote:
I noticed there are some members still complaining about the advantage of going first. I agree it is more difficult to win from second, but not impossible. However since this seems to still be an issue, I will propose an idea to try and counter this.

So, I thought it over and I think the main reason first place has the advantage is because they have the element of surprise (more or less).

So here is my idea to make things more fair: The team/player going first has the regular time limit to choose their card. Once the card is chosen, the team/player going second has 10 seconds to view the card and change their own card should they choose to do so.

I see this as fair because this way everyone knows what the other side is doing before they have their own turn.

My other suggestion is to give the people going second another pip first round.

Please let me know what you think! Thanks c:

-Maria
It's good that you are trying to fix this problem, but this is not the way to do it. Here is why your idea would still not be full solution.

Just showing the spell your opponent is going to do is not enough. The player going first has already seen their opponents move in the previous turn. They see this before they have to choose their own spell and they saw everything.

They saw if it fizzled or not.
They saw if it went criticle or not and if it was blocked.
They also saw exactly how much damage or healing was done.
They saw if stun was blocked or not.
And on top of all this they saw any pet casts that may have happened that turn.

The problem with your idea is you are only showing the spell, when really you would have to show all of the above in order for it to be completely fair. It's just too much to show it 10 seconds and not enough time for the player going second to make a decent judgement.

You might as well just let the first player play their turn so the second player can see it. Then the second player can choose their own move after seeing what their opponent has done.
Then the first player waits to see what the secon player does then chooses their move after they have seen it.
Repeat
Repeat
Repeat

In other words, both players take turns choosing their moves. Neither player has the elements of surprise and neither player has to guess what their opponent is going to do because they have already seen it when they choose their own move.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
195
Lucas Rain on Jan 26, 2014 wrote:
What you suggest is novel, creative, and thanks for trying to get to the bottom of a problem that has been with us since Wiz101's first day.

My initial concern is that some spells are actually built to honor the element of surprise, like dispels and Beguile, and with the edits you suggest, they would all but lose their impact. Seeing what move was coming, a player would simply say "Oh, a dispel. I'll switch to using something that won't make me lose my pips," or "Oh, a Beguile, I will just avoid doing anything that gives the opponent an advantage."

It would also be interesting to see how duels would change with regard to Feint and large DoT spells, since your suggestion effectively gives the second player all the advantages of the first player. Second player could simply add a shield, cast Remove Trap, Curse Pact, Empower, or Sacrifice to remove a Feint, and Triage or Availing Hands could defeat a DoT. However, the player going first would still have the advantage with large one-hit attacks and combos, since the second player would be able to see--but not respond in advance to--a large incoming hit.

In sum, changing the battle engine this way does not completely resolve the issue, and introduces other problems. Rather than changing the battle engine at all, my ongoing suggestion is to more or less democratize who goes first, giving players a spell that allows them to change which side of the duel circle goes first. That thread is here: https://www.wizard101.com/forum/the-dorms/spell-to-change-who-goes-first-in-duels-8ad6a415407c1977014088784f986826.
I see what you're saying about some spells being built for the element of surprise. But with the system that we have at the moment only the player going first has this advantage with these spells.

I like your idea by the way.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Warlord Maria on Jan 25, 2014 wrote:
I noticed there are some members still complaining about the advantage of going first. I agree it is more difficult to win from second, but not impossible. However since this seems to still be an issue, I will propose an idea to try and counter this.

So, I thought it over and I think the main reason first place has the advantage is because they have the element of surprise (more or less).

So here is my idea to make things more fair: The team/player going first has the regular time limit to choose their card. Once the card is chosen, the team/player going second has 10 seconds to view the card and change their own card should they choose to do so.

I see this as fair because this way everyone knows what the other side is doing before they have their own turn.

My other suggestion is to give the people going second another pip first round.

Please let me know what you think! Thanks c:

-Maria
Maria,

Absolutely, a brilliant idea, and it would be so easy for KI to code this in, and change PvP
for the better. It would bring PvP into a new level of fairness, and would match many other
online games.
This would put the first turn advantage on it's heals, and even out the Matches perfectly.
I honestly cannot see anyone really disagreeing with this idea, it's simply a fantastic solution.
All I can say is, Well Done.....

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4116
Lucas Rain on Jan 26, 2014 wrote:
What you suggest is novel, creative, and thanks for trying to get to the bottom of a problem that has been with us since Wiz101's first day.

My initial concern is that some spells are actually built to honor the element of surprise, like dispels and Beguile, and with the edits you suggest, they would all but lose their impact. Seeing what move was coming, a player would simply say "Oh, a dispel. I'll switch to using something that won't make me lose my pips," or "Oh, a Beguile, I will just avoid doing anything that gives the opponent an advantage."

It would also be interesting to see how duels would change with regard to Feint and large DoT spells, since your suggestion effectively gives the second player all the advantages of the first player. Second player could simply add a shield, cast Remove Trap, Curse Pact, Empower, or Sacrifice to remove a Feint, and Triage or Availing Hands could defeat a DoT. However, the player going first would still have the advantage with large one-hit attacks and combos, since the second player would be able to see--but not respond in advance to--a large incoming hit.

In sum, changing the battle engine this way does not completely resolve the issue, and introduces other problems. Rather than changing the battle engine at all, my ongoing suggestion is to more or less democratize who goes first, giving players a spell that allows them to change which side of the duel circle goes first. That thread is here: https://www.wizard101.com/forum/the-dorms/spell-to-change-who-goes-first-in-duels-8ad6a415407c1977014088784f986826.
Stop trying to hijack the threads to get people to your thread for a bad idea. I do agree this idea isn't a solution to anything, it merely gives the second player all the advantage and removes all guesswork and strategy.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
seethe42 on Jan 27, 2014 wrote:
Stop trying to hijack the threads to get people to your thread for a bad idea. I do agree this idea isn't a solution to anything, it merely gives the second player all the advantage and removes all guesswork and strategy.
I wrote several paragraphs of intent discussion and one link to another thread, clearly not a hijacking. Relax!

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Jan 27, 2014 wrote:
Stop trying to hijack the threads to get people to your thread for a bad idea. I do agree this idea isn't a solution to anything, it merely gives the second player all the advantage and removes all guesswork and strategy.
Wow, yes, I agree, it makes them almost even and almost negates the first turn advantage.
Isn't a solution, are you serious, really, not a solution to the first turn advantage, can you explain plz?
Removes all guesswork, of course it will, you are attempting to eliminate the first turn advantage!!
Remove the Strategy, for who or what are you talking about, PvP, I have to wonder?

Survivor
Aug 13, 2010
8
I agree with this especially when you're fighting a max Promethean storm. If they're going first then all it takes is just one bolt and you're down already with out even getting to choose a single spell. I think it's sort of unfair how pvp is going at the moment. To me it seems like who ever goes first is the person who wins. I mean it's possible to win, but it's really hard. For instance, balance vs balance, you're basically going to see who ever goes first. Usually the balance that goes first, will always dispel and Loremaster you over and over, fizzle after fizzle, you can barely do anything. Second has it's benefits though, like the third pip, sometimes that can be very useful in times of need. And if you're going for a really strong hit and you think you can live to make it, that extra pip can be really useful too. But other than that, I really agree and relate to this post. Pvp is all about going first, thus making second hard to win, but still possible

~ Kyle SoulGiver level 90

Delver
Jun 26, 2009
267
While I admire your attempt Maria, I don't see this as a solution. While it does negate some of the advantage but it's rather unfair for the second player to see every card that will be played against them before it's even played. Now you've transferred the advantage to the second player, leaving the first to cope. Oddly enough sounds like something KI would do.

There has been an idea floating around for a while that I believe seems the most fair. At the start of each round each player has a chance to go first. Not intending to promote another card game but Marvel super hero up has this feature and it works really well.

Survivor
Apr 30, 2011
11
natshadowbane on Jan 26, 2014 wrote:
No! This is just awful! I strongly disagree. If the first person chooses to attack, the second person can heal directly after. In fact, now the second person has the advantage. There will never be a "fair" way.

Just cross your fingers and hope you go first!
Right, but the person going first can still do the same thing. After the round ends and after the opponent, who is going second, attacks, you can heal too. You're healing right after an attack, same occasion that you were using as an example. Although the second person would have an advantage of attacking right after his opponent mana-burns, so I think you should just have to pass on that turn.

Survivor
Apr 30, 2011
11
Players can also take advantage of going second, only in team pvp however, and mainly used in higher levels, like promethean. If you heal your teammate(s) on the same turn he/she died, they will not only be still alive but still be able to cast their spell. Going first, however, does not allow your teammates to make a move on the same turn of their revival(on exception on guardian spirit, where it automatically revives you on death).

Survivor
Aug 23, 2010
22
Sorry to say my fellow wizard friend but, honestly this shouldn't even qualify as a complaint.
If your honestly complaining about something as simple as going first as being an advantage then you should stop doing pvp at once or what I would suggest, dealing with it.

Defender
Oct 27, 2013
160
natshadowbane on Jan 26, 2014 wrote:
No! This is just awful! I strongly disagree. If the first person chooses to attack, the second person can heal directly after. In fact, now the second person has the advantage. There will never be a "fair" way.

Just cross your fingers and hope you go first!
the odds are 50% you'll go first. thats only 1/2! the chance is high ain't it? but the chance of being a warlord is only 1/56 estimated. also there is a 50% chance of winnng a duel. 50% chance of getting the wizard you want to face. 50% chance to get more arena tickets than a friend. 50% chance you need healing after being attacked by a fire dragon. see all my 50's about pvp? Try you're luck

Defender
Mar 30, 2010
175
Sorry but Wizard101 PVP should be exactly like Pirate101. There is no surprise, sure someone goes first but at least you wouldn't be selecting your spell competely blind. It's always amazed me the turn system in this game. It's not balanced

It's 50:50 for who goes first, but there is still an ALARMING advantage going first.

You can't dispute going first isn't an advantage, sorry.

2nd team would have advantage with this new proposed idea.

It needs to model Pirate101 to be completely fair.

Why and how is this a hard topic for people to grasp?

Champion
Oct 30, 2011
449
poliwhirl555 on Feb 1, 2014 wrote:
the odds are 50% you'll go first. thats only 1/2! the chance is high ain't it? but the chance of being a warlord is only 1/56 estimated. also there is a 50% chance of winnng a duel. 50% chance of getting the wizard you want to face. 50% chance to get more arena tickets than a friend. 50% chance you need healing after being attacked by a fire dragon. see all my 50's about pvp? Try you're luck
I completely disagree with just about everything you said..The chance of going first may be 1/2, but that is not a high ratio. That is just equally likely as unlikely. 1/56 chance of being a warlord? From where did you get that statistic? There's more to being a warlord than a random probability, or I would have many fewer warlords. 50% chance of winning a duel? Not unless you and the opponent have a close to equal skill level and equal amounts of luck. 50% chance of getting the wizard you want to battle? There are a huge amount of Wizard101 players, and if you're referring to schools, that's a 1/7 chance, not 1/2. 50% chance to get more arena tickets than a friend? Only if you're not the same rank as them. Probability does not affect that at all. 50% chance you need to be healed after a fire dragon? Only if you are low on health, which you are not necessarily when being attacked with a fire dragon. As for the main debate, I should think it would be obvious that second has a huge disadvantage. The player in first hardly has to predict at all. A scenario could be, the person in second attacks, leaving the person that's first at low health. The person in first simply heals the attack off before the person in second can do anything, because the person in first can see what their opponent did, and not have to fight blind. If the same thing happened to the person in second, that person would most likely wait a round, as to not heal unnecessarily. The person in first obviously has a huge advantage. Kingsisle used a fair system in Pirate101 pvp. Why not Wizard101?

Delver
Oct 11, 2010
270
Well - to be really fair in going first each team/side picks rock, paper or scissors. Who ever wins this mini game goes first. Simple no extra pip etc.

in something thats 3v3 or 4v4 there should be other ways to play turns. like each slot 1 goes then each slot 2 goes then each slot 3 and so on vs the whole team going then the other side all going this would balance out these huge critical teams that are in the current end game arena. One round full wipes even with good resist and block. e.g 40-50 global resist and 240+ block

Survivor
Apr 23, 2009
40
ViciousVenomousVix... on Mar 14, 2014 wrote:
Sorry but Wizard101 PVP should be exactly like Pirate101. There is no surprise, sure someone goes first but at least you wouldn't be selecting your spell competely blind. It's always amazed me the turn system in this game. It's not balanced

It's 50:50 for who goes first, but there is still an ALARMING advantage going first.

You can't dispute going first isn't an advantage, sorry.

2nd team would have advantage with this new proposed idea.

It needs to model Pirate101 to be completely fair.

Why and how is this a hard topic for people to grasp?
Since it's 50:50 you still have a chance of going first. That seems fair to me. Sure, going first is always the advantage, but you have just as much of a chance to go first as you do second. The advantage is only given to you about half the time and your opponent the other half.