Okay, so everybody remembers the old Reshuffle spell right? It Reshuffled itself and you only needed one to go forever. Well, I believe that KingsIsle changed this due to PvP matches lasting too long. Now, with Shadow Shrike, massive critical ratings, massive damage boosts, massive armor piercing, and Jadezillas becoming extinct, don't you think that Reshuffle should be unlimited again? Even if it wasn't intended by KingsIsle, the old Reshuffle added creativity and formed the best PvP matches I've played in or witnessed. I think that since we all have our high offensive stats gear that we don't need Reshuffle to be nerfed anymore. Anybody else agree?
I can agree with this. While it really is not needed in the current meta(I can't remember the last time I used reshuffle since the meta shift) I do miss the old reshuffle cloak days. I think it could work in this meta with an ultra small deck but it is simply not realistic with only a x1 reshuffle.
I can agree with this. While it really is not needed in the current meta(I can't remember the last time I used reshuffle since the meta shift) I do miss the old reshuffle cloak days. I think it could work in this meta with an ultra small deck but it is simply not realistic with only a x1 reshuffle.
Yeah, the 1x Reshuffle completely ruined my old strategy and I can't use a small deck with Cloak anymore, so now I have to take a lot longer to find the right cards and that's all luck there.
Okay, so everybody remembers the old Reshuffle spell right? It Reshuffled itself and you only needed one to go forever. Well, I believe that KingsIsle changed this due to PvP matches lasting too long. Now, with Shadow Shrike, massive critical ratings, massive damage boosts, massive armor piercing, and Jadezillas becoming extinct, don't you think that Reshuffle should be unlimited again? Even if it wasn't intended by KingsIsle, the old Reshuffle added creativity and formed the best PvP matches I've played in or witnessed. I think that since we all have our high offensive stats gear that we don't need Reshuffle to be nerfed anymore. Anybody else agree?
I agree-reshuffle should be brought back to its original state. However, even though the high level pvps are generally fast, low level pvps are generally not. Reshuffle might become overpowered if, say, a person without reshuffle battled a person that did have reshuffle. Low level matches could also last forever if both players used tanking strategies and infinite reshuffles. However, it was never a real problem, and many strategies were completely ruined/changed because of the update to reshuffle.
Okay, so everybody remembers the old Reshuffle spell right? It Reshuffled itself and you only needed one to go forever. Well, I believe that KingsIsle changed this due to PvP matches lasting too long. Now, with Shadow Shrike, massive critical ratings, massive damage boosts, massive armor piercing, and Jadezillas becoming extinct, don't you think that Reshuffle should be unlimited again? Even if it wasn't intended by KingsIsle, the old Reshuffle added creativity and formed the best PvP matches I've played in or witnessed. I think that since we all have our high offensive stats gear that we don't need Reshuffle to be nerfed anymore. Anybody else agree?
I'd love to see the old Reshuffle returned as well, but your argument in favor of bringing it back contradicts itself. You said that removing it in the past was warranted because matches presumably lasted too long. 'Now, with current gear and strategies, matches no longer last as long so we should bring it back' is essentially what you're saying. If matches don't last as long as they did in the past, why is unlimited Reshuffling even necessary? I'm only playing the devil's (Malistaire's) advocate because I don't think KingsIsle is really compelled to change it. I personally carry a single Reshuffle in all of my decks. Out of 100-plus matches at Warlord, I've only had to Reshuffle a few times. I only recall one match against an Ice where I'd have needed to Reshuffle more than once if it lasted a few more turns. If the match gets to that point and I haven't been able to beat you, I think you deserve the win.
Removing it was never warranted. It was a mistake. The intent might have been to shorten matches, but reshuffle wasn't the problem, so changing it wasn't a fix.
Matches are shorter now because of more aggressive gear and spells. Please restore Reshuffle.
While the most recent reshuffle was convenient, it was also broken. If you are an older player, you may recall that the description used to be different... something like "Reshuffle discard pile into deck" if I remember correctly. It has had a couple of changes since its inception so it is difficult to remember its entire history. The point is that it never made sense to be able to have only one card. If this was an actual card game, wouldn't you cry foul if this card was played and your opponent put it back into their deck without discarding it? It makes no sense that this one spell can be used over and over and over. One of the basic principles of strategy in the game is that you have to manage the number of copies of each spell. Why should this one spell be allowed to circumvent that?
I enjoyed abusing the old reshuffle glitch too, but it's really a minor inconvenience having it fixed like it is now. As gtahannon said, it was clearly broken and made no sense before. The fact that we players enjoyed abusing the glitch of it doesn't mean it wasn't broken. Carry a couple reshuffles in your TC board, problem solved. Reshuffle was never meant to allow you keep reusing the same handful of cards forever by placing a single card in your deck.
While the most recent reshuffle was convenient, it was also broken. If you are an older player, you may recall that the description used to be different... something like "Reshuffle discard pile into deck" if I remember correctly. It has had a couple of changes since its inception so it is difficult to remember its entire history. The point is that it never made sense to be able to have only one card. If this was an actual card game, wouldn't you cry foul if this card was played and your opponent put it back into their deck without discarding it? It makes no sense that this one spell can be used over and over and over. One of the basic principles of strategy in the game is that you have to manage the number of copies of each spell. Why should this one spell be allowed to circumvent that?
The problem is, all of us got used to the "broken Reshuffle." The spell was the main source of my strategy with only around 30 cards in my deck. I could find whatever I wanted whenever I wanted it, and I could keep some emergency spells in my sideboard to back me up. Now, with Reshuffle limited, I'm forced to either make my deck larger (decrease the chance of me getting the right cards) or stack my sideboard up with Reshuffle TC'S (again, taking away the advantage of me being able to pull out an emergency spell). The change ruined my strategy as well as many other's. It doesn't matter if the unlimited Reshuffle made no sense, it still made PvP creative and always kept a high intensity in matches.
With most matches being short anyways, the Reshuffle limit isn't needed anymore. If it goes back to its "broken form", then that means that I'll be able to pull out the cards I need when I need them once again, instead of having to rely on the randomness of when I get my cards. There have been so many times when I've gotten 6 Colossals and 1 Cloak in my hand and I had no idea what to discard. It put me at a one turn disadvantage, why? Because Reshuffle is limited and I can't discard those anymore without risking the entire match. The old Reshuffle was what made PvP intense in my honest opinion, not all this offensive critical/armor pierce spamming.
I honestly like there idea of this, One: for most of which everyone said it cuts down a lot of time in battles which is a good thing esepically since at my level (71) because some people using the reshuffle strategy would actually stall you till you gave up which would waste SOOOOO much time and wasn't even worth it, making you give up for nothing, when on a serious note you could have had an actual battle. Two: For people at least with decent-good stats they really can use only one reshuffle and be done with there battles (Not saying this goes for everyone obviously) or at the least not even having to use one. And I don't get how this is a change for some people all it does it make you have to get more reshuffles----> In which if you have the real card I am pretty sure you can have enough espeically for those High ranked low levels for some reason having a ton of money to buy TC or High levels with bigger decks For most Max is what? 6< heck that's more than enough right there espeically with fast pased battles nowadays. So, for some people it helps for some it doesn't.
The problem is, all of us got used to the "broken Reshuffle." The spell was the main source of my strategy with only around 30 cards in my deck. I could find whatever I wanted whenever I wanted it, and I could keep some emergency spells in my sideboard to back me up. Now, with Reshuffle limited, I'm forced to either make my deck larger (decrease the chance of me getting the right cards) or stack my sideboard up with Reshuffle TC'S (again, taking away the advantage of me being able to pull out an emergency spell). The change ruined my strategy as well as many other's. It doesn't matter if the unlimited Reshuffle made no sense, it still made PvP creative and always kept a high intensity in matches.
With most matches being short anyways, the Reshuffle limit isn't needed anymore. If it goes back to its "broken form", then that means that I'll be able to pull out the cards I need when I need them once again, instead of having to rely on the randomness of when I get my cards. There have been so many times when I've gotten 6 Colossals and 1 Cloak in my hand and I had no idea what to discard. It put me at a one turn disadvantage, why? Because Reshuffle is limited and I can't discard those anymore without risking the entire match. The old Reshuffle was what made PvP intense in my honest opinion, not all this offensive critical/armor pierce spamming.
I get the "why"... it is much easier with just one reshuffle in a deck. However, that doesn't make it "right". You seem to be completely ignoring principle in favor of convenience. Randomness is meant to be an integral part of this game and something that you are supposed to struggle with. I just can't advocate for intentionally bringing back something broken or inconsistent merely because it would make my life easier.
I get the "why"... it is much easier with just one reshuffle in a deck. However, that doesn't make it "right". You seem to be completely ignoring principle in favor of convenience. Randomness is meant to be an integral part of this game and something that you are supposed to struggle with. I just can't advocate for intentionally bringing back something broken or inconsistent merely because it would make my life easier.
Why wouldn't you is the question? Have a pass-off in a 1v1 is a complete waste of time if both sides don't end the match. I'd much rather be casting spells for 10 hours rather than pass for even 2 hours. It's completely boring and a waste of time. In a high intensity match with unlimited Reshuffles, it could go on for a while, yes, and that's what makes it fun.
Yes, randomness is meant to be part of the game, but look at how random it is already. A chance to get a power pip, a chance for the spell to work, a chance to do the maximum damage it says on the card, a chance for your pet to cast something, and now the chance to pull the right card at the right time? With the old Reshuffle, it made decks controllable. I've been doing PvP for years, trust me, the old Reshuffle was better. It wasn't "broken" even, why try to fix something that's already fixed? Why make something that's fun for everybody boring? What would you rather be in right now, a pass-off or a PvP match? I do PvP for the fun of it and how I love using my brain to come up with strategies to corner my opponent, not to spam that pass button and sit there staring at the screen because I don't want to lose a match.
I understand that KingsIsle said it wasn't their intention to make Reshuffle unlimited. Well, have you seen PvP back then compared to now? Have you seen the high intensity of the matches back then? Well let me tell you, the "tempo" was the same throughout the whole match and it never dropped down until you had to Reshuffle, it was always high and it really was a "may the best man win" game, not a "may the biggest deck win". It wasn't KingsIsle's intention to make Reshuffle unlimited, but me and millions of other players think it should be that way.
Why wouldn't you is the question? Have a pass-off in a 1v1 is a complete waste of time if both sides don't end the match. I'd much rather be casting spells for 10 hours rather than pass for even 2 hours. It's completely boring and a waste of time. In a high intensity match with unlimited Reshuffles, it could go on for a while, yes, and that's what makes it fun.
Yes, randomness is meant to be part of the game, but look at how random it is already. A chance to get a power pip, a chance for the spell to work, a chance to do the maximum damage it says on the card, a chance for your pet to cast something, and now the chance to pull the right card at the right time? With the old Reshuffle, it made decks controllable. I've been doing PvP for years, trust me, the old Reshuffle was better. It wasn't "broken" even, why try to fix something that's already fixed? Why make something that's fun for everybody boring? What would you rather be in right now, a pass-off or a PvP match? I do PvP for the fun of it and how I love using my brain to come up with strategies to corner my opponent, not to spam that pass button and sit there staring at the screen because I don't want to lose a match.
I understand that KingsIsle said it wasn't their intention to make Reshuffle unlimited. Well, have you seen PvP back then compared to now? Have you seen the high intensity of the matches back then? Well let me tell you, the "tempo" was the same throughout the whole match and it never dropped down until you had to Reshuffle, it was always high and it really was a "may the best man win" game, not a "may the biggest deck win". It wasn't KingsIsle's intention to make Reshuffle unlimited, but me and millions of other players think it should be that way.
I did PvP quite a lot some years ago. I don't intend to engage in a play style debate over the use of small decks and reshuffle because I don't PvP anymore for a large raft of reasons which are irrelevant to this post. I would like to specifically address this, however:
Why make something that's fun for everybody boring? What would you rather be in right now, a pass-off or a PvP match?
I'm not here to trash PvPers. I think that this crowd has contributed heavily to game mechanics and overall balance in the game. However, the above attitude is the one thing that does occasionally irritate me. A spell which is inconsistent with the fundamental spell casting mechanics of the game is not "fun for everybody". It is fun for the avid (occasionally rabid) PvP set that lives to control variables and game mechanics. I'm sorry to break this to you, but that is not a large percentage of the Wizard 101 community. While most will certainly try PvP, the majority are simply frustrated by it.
These forums are awash with claims of "over powered" and "broken spells" as a direct result of losses incurred in the arena. I can certainly understand that from your perspective, the current reshuffle may be considered "broken" and my position is not meant to be a criticism of that view. I do completely understand where you are coming from so please allow me to clarify my usage of the term. The previous iteration of the spell is "broken" in terms of consistency with the basic play system. Things like that bother me greatly whether they are useful to me or not. Given that there is already no mana loss in the arena, it would in no way bother me for reshuffle to function as you wish it there. However, until such time as KI makes a clean break between PvP mechanics and in game mechanics, I simply cannot support reintroducing this inconsistency.
I liked it the way it was, and so did most players. It was that way for a long time, and I have seen nothing to suggest that was unintended or a glitch. Calling it an "exploit" doesn't make it one. It was made to work that way, and it was good for players. It was changed to please a small cadre of hardcore PvPers who complained 24/7 about "turtles" and matches taking too long. High pierce, crit, and shrike have solved that problem and then some, so it could go back to the way most of us liked it.
There is no advantage to the way it is now. None. It doesn't make PvP matches shorter, and is pure inconvenience for PvE.
I liked it the way it was, and so did most players. It was that way for a long time, and I have seen nothing to suggest that was unintended or a glitch. Calling it an "exploit" doesn't make it one. It was made to work that way, and it was good for players. It was changed to please a small cadre of hardcore PvPers who complained 24/7 about "turtles" and matches taking too long. High pierce, crit, and shrike have solved that problem and then some, so it could go back to the way most of us liked it.
There is no advantage to the way it is now. None. It doesn't make PvP matches shorter, and is pure inconvenience for PvE.
Your reasoning for the change isn't accurate. Please refer to the update notes here:
Scroll down to Susume's description of using reshuffle where at least two were required. This supports the position that having only one in your deck was never intended to allow you unlimited cards.
I did PvP quite a lot some years ago. I don't intend to engage in a play style debate over the use of small decks and reshuffle because I don't PvP anymore for a large raft of reasons which are irrelevant to this post. I would like to specifically address this, however:
Why make something that's fun for everybody boring? What would you rather be in right now, a pass-off or a PvP match?
I'm not here to trash PvPers. I think that this crowd has contributed heavily to game mechanics and overall balance in the game. However, the above attitude is the one thing that does occasionally irritate me. A spell which is inconsistent with the fundamental spell casting mechanics of the game is not "fun for everybody". It is fun for the avid (occasionally rabid) PvP set that lives to control variables and game mechanics. I'm sorry to break this to you, but that is not a large percentage of the Wizard 101 community. While most will certainly try PvP, the majority are simply frustrated by it.
These forums are awash with claims of "over powered" and "broken spells" as a direct result of losses incurred in the arena. I can certainly understand that from your perspective, the current reshuffle may be considered "broken" and my position is not meant to be a criticism of that view. I do completely understand where you are coming from so please allow me to clarify my usage of the term. The previous iteration of the spell is "broken" in terms of consistency with the basic play system. Things like that bother me greatly whether they are useful to me or not. Given that there is already no mana loss in the arena, it would in no way bother me for reshuffle to function as you wish it there. However, until such time as KI makes a clean break between PvP mechanics and in game mechanics, I simply cannot support reintroducing this inconsistency.
The old Reshuffle was fun for everybody, I bet even for you. What's so fun about having a pass-a-thon with somebody in ranked PvP for hours and worse of all with them having their PvP chat off? The old Reshuffle brought balance to the game. Duelists could pull out the card they needed at the right time because of the old Reshuffle, and now once again it's luck based on when/how you pull out your cards whether they're TC or not. It really doesn't make sense to me to change Reshuffle to 1x if KI was going to give us massive critical ratings and armor pierce anyway, it's honestly frustrating me with having to kill my opponent before I run out of cards. If it's a Bad Juju Jadezilla, I'm done. I can't do anything about it because by the time I shake off all the Jujus and find a kill solution I'll be out of cards. Nothing I can do about it. With the old Reshuffle, you could fight Bad Juju spamming Jadezillas and have the same consistency of pulling out the rights cards when you need them because that's what's insanely important when fighting those types of opponents. If you really think Jadezillas are extinct, here's some news: They're not. If you go up to the higher ranks, such as 1700's, you'll see Jades coming back again, and mostly being Death. With Reshuffle limited, nobody can defeat these guys. The current Reshuffle is broken because of how unfair it is to lose all your cards and be passing, not because it used to let you go into "never ending duels", because those matches did end and they obviously will with Hades gear.
Nobody was exactly "frustrated" by the old Reshuffle, because more people are frustrated about the current one right now. The worst you could get back then is a turtle, and people think they don't exist anymore. Well, limiting Reshuffle wasn't the solution to it at all. With limiting Reshuffle, turtles have been more effective in PvP, just stalling to make you run out of cards. Many strategies became extinct, gear setups became extinct, many PvPers quit, why? Because Reshuffle changed and that ruined PvP. It's an even worst inconvenience in ranked PvP if you're soloing and you run out of cards to have to restart the entire fight, so bringing back the unlimited Reshuffle is a must.
The old Reshuffle was fun for everybody, I bet even for you. What's so fun about having a pass-a-thon with somebody in ranked PvP for hours and worse of all with them having their PvP chat off? The old Reshuffle brought balance to the game. Duelists could pull out the card they needed at the right time because of the old Reshuffle, and now once again it's luck based on when/how you pull out your cards whether they're TC or not. It really doesn't make sense to me to change Reshuffle to 1x if KI was going to give us massive critical ratings and armor pierce anyway, it's honestly frustrating me with having to kill my opponent before I run out of cards. If it's a Bad Juju Jadezilla, I'm done. I can't do anything about it because by the time I shake off all the Jujus and find a kill solution I'll be out of cards. Nothing I can do about it. With the old Reshuffle, you could fight Bad Juju spamming Jadezillas and have the same consistency of pulling out the rights cards when you need them because that's what's insanely important when fighting those types of opponents. If you really think Jadezillas are extinct, here's some news: They're not. If you go up to the higher ranks, such as 1700's, you'll see Jades coming back again, and mostly being Death. With Reshuffle limited, nobody can defeat these guys. The current Reshuffle is broken because of how unfair it is to lose all your cards and be passing, not because it used to let you go into "never ending duels", because those matches did end and they obviously will with Hades gear.
Nobody was exactly "frustrated" by the old Reshuffle, because more people are frustrated about the current one right now. The worst you could get back then is a turtle, and people think they don't exist anymore. Well, limiting Reshuffle wasn't the solution to it at all. With limiting Reshuffle, turtles have been more effective in PvP, just stalling to make you run out of cards. Many strategies became extinct, gear setups became extinct, many PvPers quit, why? Because Reshuffle changed and that ruined PvP. It's an even worst inconvenience in ranked PvP if you're soloing and you run out of cards to have to restart the entire fight, so bringing back the unlimited Reshuffle is a must.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I already acknowledged that I can see where you're coming from, but this is just not something you can possibly know:
The old Reshuffle was fun for everybody, I bet even for you.
And if you think my arguments had anything to do "fun", please re-read them. By that logic, why not go ahead and implement all the ridiculous things people ask for in these forums... I'm sure they're all fun to them too.
@ PvP King I find it rather amusing that you argue that limited reshuffle makes turtles more effective while at the same time you argue against shrike and pierce. You seem to be both for and against turtling. Just because a totally illogical glitch was "fun" for you doesn't mean everyone agrees. Unlimited, unending matches with decks of only 10 cards is not exactly fun for most. One of the reasons I stopped PvP was the old shuffle. It made turtles far more effective. Anyone v Ice/Jade were basically forever matches. One reshuffle card was all they needed to keep going forever.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I already acknowledged that I can see where you're coming from, but this is just not something you can possibly know:
The old Reshuffle was fun for everybody, I bet even for you.
And if you think my arguments had anything to do "fun", please re-read them. By that logic, why not go ahead and implement all the ridiculous things people ask for in these forums... I'm sure they're all fun to them too.
If the game or PvP isn't about fun, then what is it about? Just getting to max level/Warlord and giving yourself a pat on the back? I brought up "fun" because that's what games are about.
The old Reshuffle isn't ridiculous, it's logical. I've never played a game where you could just "run out" of options to choose in battle. Even in simple games like Pokemon where you run out of PP, your Pokemon still has some attacks left so you're not stuck there passing the entire game.
"By that logic, why not go ahead and implement all the ridiculous things people ask for in these forums... I'm sure they're all fun to them too." Yes, it is fun for them, but not for everybody. I've never seen the old Reshuffle displease any wizards or start up a whole rant, but other things such as spell nerfing did. The old Reshuffle was perfect, was the key to creativity in play styles, and much more, and it never caused a huge argument with two sides. It was based on one side, the way it was. When Reshuffle did change, did you not see how many people complained about the spell change? Why do you think that is? Because the spell used to be "broken"? No, it just doesn't make sense to me why they changed it. It was fine the way it was and never interfered with programming or anything so it really never was broken.
@ PvP King I find it rather amusing that you argue that limited reshuffle makes turtles more effective while at the same time you argue against shrike and pierce. You seem to be both for and against turtling. Just because a totally illogical glitch was "fun" for you doesn't mean everyone agrees. Unlimited, unending matches with decks of only 10 cards is not exactly fun for most. One of the reasons I stopped PvP was the old shuffle. It made turtles far more effective. Anyone v Ice/Jade were basically forever matches. One reshuffle card was all they needed to keep going forever.
What I find more amusing is that I never picked sides to go for or against turtling. It's a strategy. What I do know, is that if you have massive damage, critical and armor pierce, you should be able to finish a turtle off without even throwing one Reshuffle. With that, the Reshuffle limit isn't needed anymore and it would bring back the variety of strategies in PvP and high intensity matches, not all these slow tempo and low intensity matches we have now due to the lack of card drawing when you need it. Back in first age PvP, there was a simple way to counter turtles. Reshuffle before they do. You'd be finding your cards and be able to do anything to take them down. Today, you can't discard too much, you have to deal with what you get (a seriously luck based card drawing system without unlimited Reshuffles), and you have to change to a deck style you're totally uncomfortable with, all to end up having to pass for hours vs a turtle because nobody will flee.
If the game or PvP isn't about fun, then what is it about? Just getting to max level/Warlord and giving yourself a pat on the back? I brought up "fun" because that's what games are about.
The old Reshuffle isn't ridiculous, it's logical. I've never played a game where you could just "run out" of options to choose in battle. Even in simple games like Pokemon where you run out of PP, your Pokemon still has some attacks left so you're not stuck there passing the entire game.
"By that logic, why not go ahead and implement all the ridiculous things people ask for in these forums... I'm sure they're all fun to them too." Yes, it is fun for them, but not for everybody. I've never seen the old Reshuffle displease any wizards or start up a whole rant, but other things such as spell nerfing did. The old Reshuffle was perfect, was the key to creativity in play styles, and much more, and it never caused a huge argument with two sides. It was based on one side, the way it was. When Reshuffle did change, did you not see how many people complained about the spell change? Why do you think that is? Because the spell used to be "broken"? No, it just doesn't make sense to me why they changed it. It was fine the way it was and never interfered with programming or anything so it really never was broken.
"I've never seen the old Reshuffle displease any wizards or start up a whole rant, but other things such as spell nerfing did. The old Reshuffle was perfect, was the key to creativity in play styles, and much more, and it never caused a huge argument with two sides."
Well, you just met a wizard that was displeased with the most recent reshuffle. Why? Because when it changed (the first time, not the time you're upset about) it broke basic tenants of the game. A game is fun to me when it follows rules and is consistent, not when it does things that make no sense. As I stated before, I don't have a problem with the version you like in the arena, but I don't believe it has any place in the main game. I understand your point of view on this topic and I won't post any more about it in your thread. However, I would appreciate it if you could refrain from marginalizing my opinion. After all, I'm part of "everybody" as well.
