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Ratbeard's PvP 'State of the Meta' dev diary

AuthorMessage
Administrator
Ratbeard loves to livestream the game and get your feedback on proposed design changes. Check out what his team is thinking for PvP in this latest 'State of the Meta' PvP dev diary!

https://wizard101.com/game/devdiary/pvp-meta-march2022

Explorer
Mar 08, 2009
56
Since we're tweaking things, something came to mind; Can we change how Tribunal oni works - in that it judges off the caster's shadow pips instead of your opponent's? As it is currently, I think it's really situational and also makes it's ramp - Oni's Shadow - really not worth considering.

Survivor
Jan 08, 2022
2
AMAZING changes, I'm excited for 5th age. I hope to see an elo system too. (also pvp spells in a different tab, but the former is more important)

Defender
Sep 15, 2013
136
Some interesting things here but I'm not convinced on everything.

Steal Ward

"Steal Ward is good only because Tower Shield is good." That is true but unlike tower shield, steal ward is not readily available. You can't just buy steal ward from vendors. I don't think it's right to force players to farm for spells over and over again to be able to compete in pvp. Those that have the time to dedicate to farming will inevitably have an advantage over players that don't have the time. Either keep it stocked (with vendors) so everyone has equal access to it or do away with it completely.

Timer Stalling

I don't like the idea of both players losing rank to a timer match/a draw. Personally, I feel neither player should lose or gain rank when there is a stalemate. Why can't it be zeroed out? I get that this is in an effort to punish jades, but you're punishing both players for the fault of one. A legit player isn't doing anything wrong; they're simply trying to win to a broken style of game play that you have allowed to continue. I think you should focus more on eliminating the jade problem rather than taking the easy way out by punishing both players.

"Drain" Meta

I find it strange how you defend some spells compared to others. Arguing in favor of spamming spells and simply saying "they're good" isn't a great argument. It didn't matter with Efreet and several other fire spells. Efreet was 8 pips and you could only use it back to back twice before you're out of pips. The -90% was a great counter to many things, but everyone considered it broken. Now you make the argument that Wraith is just a good spell. The healing advantage of life and death need to be countered significantly. I don't agree with how drains are calculated. I think a drain shouldn't do more than what a player has available to sap. If a death drains my minion who has 300hp, he shouldn't be able to drain more than 300hp. Same when he/she drains me. But I think you're putting too much focus on Wraith and not on the new spells. The death scion is way too op. You all need to rethink what you're doing with heals/drains. Either make it to where every school has decent/realistic means of healing or make it so that healing can't be abused. Balance the game!

Survivor
Jun 22, 2009
16
I have not sparred with my fellow wizards in the arena for a long time, but these are always a great read! I might care to join in on the “new foundation” at some point! I'm hoping you take the time to talk more about team PVP at some point and elaborate on the direction it may go.

“Timer Stalling

Simply put, we are removing the timer as a Win condition in 5th Age. Any match that goes to timer (regardless of which player's clock ends first) will be considered a Draw. In a Draw result, both players will lose rank.”

By losing rank, do you mean losing rank points? Will it be the same amount as an actual loss/flee if we lose points because of a draw?

Survivor
Mar 16, 2022
2
I have been away from the game for several years and see I've missed quite a bit. I just restarted playing on a fresh account as a "newb" and having fun. Can't wait to get back into PvP and see all these developments as a big positive. Good job!

Defender
Oct 16, 2014
189
Quite the interesting topic.

[Concern]
One problem that was not brought up is if DoTs are changed as mentioned, Triage and Cooldown would have the exact same effect, thus Triage would need to be different in some way.

[Suggestion]
This is from both a PvE and PvP standpoint. I love how and are at odds in terms of healing however the team, players, as well as myself seem to agree that "Drains" are becoming very strong. I personally believe the issue lies in the fact that does not counter enough.

Here is what I mean: you can say has a specialty in all schools.
  • (blading and removing jinxes for high damage via Dark Pact and Feint)
  • (single and AoE DoTs via Poison, Deer Knight, and Skeletal Dragon)
  • (annoying resilience via Fortify/Brace/Plague, which surviving allows Drains to regain health before being defeated)
  • (multi-Minions via Animate)
  • (healing via Drains and Sacrifice)
  • (support via universal buffs and AoE weaknesses; self pip manipulation via Empower)
The result is an all-around school that can act as any other school. The only features truly own are self hits, powerful damage jinxes, and heal jinxes. does not have a direct counter for any of the three, meanwhile Drains counter Absorbs and Heal Reductions counter healing.

As well Drains are exclusive while all schools can heal (tho not as good as does). This means anyone can heal, countered by , while only can use Drains, countered by none.

So 2 things:
  1. As Ratbeard said, there needs to be a direct counter to Drains. My suggestion is to give this feature to the school to balance the healing war between and .
  2. The feature should be some sort of Trap, so that Cleanse Charm is used for Infections and Cleanse Ward is used for this ( using vs using ).

  • One option is to change Absorbs so that they also block Drain damage. Maybe with a twist for Drains...
  • Ex: Spirit Armor blocks up to 400 Damage, x0.5 against Drains (aka up to 250 Drain Damage)

A+ Student
Mar 31, 2009
1713
Jeremy Firestaff on Mar 17, 2022 wrote:
Some interesting things here but I'm not convinced on everything.

Steal Ward

"Steal Ward is good only because Tower Shield is good." That is true but unlike tower shield, steal ward is not readily available. You can't just buy steal ward from vendors. I don't think it's right to force players to farm for spells over and over again to be able to compete in pvp. Those that have the time to dedicate to farming will inevitably have an advantage over players that don't have the time. Either keep it stocked (with vendors) so everyone has equal access to it or do away with it completely.

Timer Stalling

I don't like the idea of both players losing rank to a timer match/a draw. Personally, I feel neither player should lose or gain rank when there is a stalemate. Why can't it be zeroed out? I get that this is in an effort to punish jades, but you're punishing both players for the fault of one. A legit player isn't doing anything wrong; they're simply trying to win to a broken style of game play that you have allowed to continue. I think you should focus more on eliminating the jade problem rather than taking the easy way out by punishing both players.

"Drain" Meta

I find it strange how you defend some spells compared to others. Arguing in favor of spamming spells and simply saying "they're good" isn't a great argument. It didn't matter with Efreet and several other fire spells. Efreet was 8 pips and you could only use it back to back twice before you're out of pips. The -90% was a great counter to many things, but everyone considered it broken. Now you make the argument that Wraith is just a good spell. The healing advantage of life and death need to be countered significantly. I don't agree with how drains are calculated. I think a drain shouldn't do more than what a player has available to sap. If a death drains my minion who has 300hp, he shouldn't be able to drain more than 300hp. Same when he/she drains me. But I think you're putting too much focus on Wraith and not on the new spells. The death scion is way too op. You all need to rethink what you're doing with heals/drains. Either make it to where every school has decent/realistic means of healing or make it so that healing can't be abused. Balance the game!
I agree with Jeremy's sentiment in terms of Timer Stalling and the Drain Meta.
Both losing Rank due to a legit draw shouldn't penalize both, maybe first one is a "draw" and then if that person continues to "jade" then you can have them start to lose rank via the penalty system.

The nerf to Efreet, I'm not sure if it was "broken" in as much as people didn't prepare a counter for it, and that drains shouldn't collect more health than is available. Having a counter to drains via the Ice/Life or possibly even Myth schools (based on opposite schools and Roshambos) would make the most sense to me. There is a good post that I tweeted to the Dev's account (and click link here) that talks about an idea for that utilizing the "absorb" mechanic. John relates it to a percent, whereas I wonder if Absorbs should count toward the "base" damage of the spell (so that they remain viable for longer).

I feel that Steal Ward is fine as it is. It is not required to win and there are a variety of ways to combat it chief among them being to stop casting Tower Shield and to transition to school or set shields (as was mentioned). Having Steal Ward only available to the Ice school makes some level of sense. There are so many other things that are school specific. (Drains ONLY for Death etc.) Having a low pip readily accessible Treasure card is the problem of Tower Shield, why would you make Steal Ward have the exact same problem?

Survivor
Aug 02, 2012
1
One thing I would love to see is just the removal of crit and block all together from pvp because it only leads to frustration within the player base. Level 60 for example, the crit multiplier at that level is so high that some wins are just from crit reliance and even with a decent block set up is still prevalent and an issue for lower level players. Also, the use of deckathalon at lower levels makes people stray away from it because it's just too overpowered...

Survivor
Aug 13, 2018
11
John Hawkstone on Mar 17, 2022 wrote:
Quite the interesting topic.

[Concern]
One problem that was not brought up is if DoTs are changed as mentioned, Triage and Cooldown would have the exact same effect, thus Triage would need to be different in some way.

[Suggestion]
This is from both a PvE and PvP standpoint. I love how and are at odds in terms of healing however the team, players, as well as myself seem to agree that "Drains" are becoming very strong. I personally believe the issue lies in the fact that does not counter enough.

Here is what I mean: you can say has a specialty in all schools.
  • (blading and removing jinxes for high damage via Dark Pact and Feint)
  • (single and AoE DoTs via Poison, Deer Knight, and Skeletal Dragon)
  • (annoying resilience via Fortify/Brace/Plague, which surviving allows Drains to regain health before being defeated)
  • (multi-Minions via Animate)
  • (healing via Drains and Sacrifice)
  • (support via universal buffs and AoE weaknesses; self pip manipulation via Empower)
The result is an all-around school that can act as any other school. The only features truly own are self hits, powerful damage jinxes, and heal jinxes. does not have a direct counter for any of the three, meanwhile Drains counter Absorbs and Heal Reductions counter healing.

As well Drains are exclusive while all schools can heal (tho not as good as does). This means anyone can heal, countered by , while only can use Drains, countered by none.

So 2 things:
  1. As Ratbeard said, there needs to be a direct counter to Drains. My suggestion is to give this feature to the school to balance the healing war between and .
  2. The feature should be some sort of Trap, so that Cleanse Charm is used for Infections and Cleanse Ward is used for this ( using vs using ).

  • One option is to change Absorbs so that they also block Drain damage. Maybe with a twist for Drains...
  • Ex: Spirit Armor blocks up to 400 Damage, x0.5 against Drains (aka up to 250 Drain Damage)
Okay so here are 2 major problems with what your suggesting, and this comes from someone like me who has all schools. First off is the fact that does in fact have not just 2 but 3 major counters to . 1) Death Shield and Shield set. 2) OP Heals, its a known fact how strong heals are over all other schools. and finally 3) can in fact train the Weakness spell from the Balance School which in effect lowers the Drain effect from . So I find with all due respect your arguments there totally preposterous and unfounded as this comes across more like jealousy rather than a problem.

Second thing I need to address are your fixes. Realistically, there never has been a healing war between and . If you truly want a discussion war, then lets focus on where lacks the ability to Stun, Smash Blades (Leviathan and Earthquake for example), and place Mantles. Yes we are talking about PvP here, but the solution you seek would wreck and destroy PvE, and therefore would run off people from wanting to use , which in turn would cripple the school count. I've always stated that PvP should never belong in a game as it brings disfunctionality and chaos. People are just smart enough to find ways to utilize what they have. Period. Due to the high PvP demand though, we are seeing much more Weakness, Mantles, and Stuns in PvE where we use to not see much of that other than from bosses. Now even trash mobs sling these spells now.

Here is my solution to PvP: Simply create a pure PvP ability only spell book and let everyone decide how they want to freely use those spells. Extra work yes, but more balanced and would cut out the crying and complaining from everyone. No one will be truly happy with PvP, they will always ask for something else, different, or a change to something that doesn't suit them well enough. Well I for one am very tired of the moaners and complainers in this game. The fact is PvE needs to undergo a major fix and remedy some very bad issues before PvP is focused on. I've never liked PvP as its never a constant state for XP that we all crave anyways.

The last thing I will touch on is the Option to change absorbs so that they block drain damage. Ok so here it is in an honest way. The whole purpose of a Necromancer is to command death itself, which means life essence heals them. The Death School needed this much improved drain they have, this is what makes a Necro a Necro, otherwise they would be mostly useless and have no place in the magic world. I just told you up top how to counter Spells on their drains. Personally if I were you, I'd be arguing the fact weakness and mantles are too common and take a vote to totally abolish them from the game completely. That at least would be a more Mature argument to make rather than complain about Death School drains.

MOD EDIT: Removed inflammatory comments

Survivor
Nov 23, 2017
2