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Why Don't Your Old Spells Get Better?

AuthorMessage
Explorer
Jan 05, 2013
66
Since we don't get many new spells as we progress, I always wondered why our beginner lever spells never increase in power?

Granted, I know that everyone will say "as you level up your gear and attributes increase your spells" or (with giant or colossal you get 300 more damage". Those are just modifiers though. I think that as your wizard gains experience, you should be able to level up your spells as well.

For example, I am primarily a myth wizard. My two weakest spells are Blood Bat (1 pip, 70-110 damage, gained at Level 1) and Troll (2 pip, 170-210 damage, gained at Level 5). I'm at Level 82 now and barely even have these spells in my deck anymore. Same with my lower pip minion spells. Wouldn't 80 levels of experience mean that my control and power of this spell is better?

My suggestion would be for wizards to be able to upgrade their learned spells. We're master wizards, not students. Shouldn't we be able to do our starter magic at an advanced level?

Level 1 - original spell
Level 2 - 1st upgrade 15 levels after learned - +25% damage (adds blade on the card)
Level 3 - 2nd upgrade 30 levels after learned - +50% damage (adds two blades)
Level 4 - 3rd upgrade 45 levels after learned - +75% damage (adds three blades)
Level 5 - 4th upgrade 60 levels after learned - +100% damage (essentially a critical every time)

Using Bloodbat as example

Level 1 (Level 1) - 170-210
Level 2 (Level 16) - 215-260
Level 3 (Level 31) - 255-315
Level 4 (Level 46) - 295-365
Level 5 (Level 61) - 340-420

So, a level 5 spell that you've used for 60 levels should be almost twice as effective. Your level 40 spells would be maxed out at level 100. The super strong spells you just got could be even more powerful at level 115 but just imagine if level 160 is possible how strong they would be.

To balance out, maybe every other upgrade raises the pips needed so that Level 5 Blood Bat is now a 3 pip spell instead of just 1 pip.

Just thinking of ways to make all of these great animations useful again since all I ever see now is Medusa and H-frog when I battle or spells from my secondary school which are more useful now than these old student spells. It's a logical progression of spell knowledge (like cure, cura, curaga, etc in almost every RPG) and doesn't require anything other than slapping a blade symbol on the card and adding a damage table to the spells.

Defender
Aug 04, 2014
148
I like the idea but I think it would be better if it was automatic.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
Antonio Shadowbrea... on Jan 12, 2015 wrote:
Since we don't get many new spells as we progress, I always wondered why our beginner lever spells never increase in power?

Granted, I know that everyone will say "as you level up your gear and attributes increase your spells" or (with giant or colossal you get 300 more damage". Those are just modifiers though. I think that as your wizard gains experience, you should be able to level up your spells as well.

For example, I am primarily a myth wizard. My two weakest spells are Blood Bat (1 pip, 70-110 damage, gained at Level 1) and Troll (2 pip, 170-210 damage, gained at Level 5). I'm at Level 82 now and barely even have these spells in my deck anymore. Same with my lower pip minion spells. Wouldn't 80 levels of experience mean that my control and power of this spell is better?

My suggestion would be for wizards to be able to upgrade their learned spells. We're master wizards, not students. Shouldn't we be able to do our starter magic at an advanced level?

Level 1 - original spell
Level 2 - 1st upgrade 15 levels after learned - +25% damage (adds blade on the card)
Level 3 - 2nd upgrade 30 levels after learned - +50% damage (adds two blades)
Level 4 - 3rd upgrade 45 levels after learned - +75% damage (adds three blades)
Level 5 - 4th upgrade 60 levels after learned - +100% damage (essentially a critical every time)

Using Bloodbat as example

Level 1 (Level 1) - 170-210
Level 2 (Level 16) - 215-260
Level 3 (Level 31) - 255-315
Level 4 (Level 46) - 295-365
Level 5 (Level 61) - 340-420

So, a level 5 spell that you've used for 60 levels should be almost twice as effective. Your level 40 spells would be maxed out at level 100. The super strong spells you just got could be even more powerful at level 115 but just imagine if level 160 is possible how strong they would be.

To balance out, maybe every other upgrade raises the pips needed so that Level 5 Blood Bat is now a 3 pip spell instead of just 1 pip.

Just thinking of ways to make all of these great animations useful again since all I ever see now is Medusa and H-frog when I battle or spells from my secondary school which are more useful now than these old student spells. It's a logical progression of spell knowledge (like cure, cura, curaga, etc in almost every RPG) and doesn't require anything other than slapping a blade symbol on the card and adding a damage table to the spells.
interesting concept. We've asked for spells that upgrade before, and never got an answer. I think something like this would be awesome since it would affect all spells. I think they TRIED to do something like this with Link/Powerlink, helping hands/availing hands, etc

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
The reason our spells don't increase in power with our level is because the game uses gear increases as the mechanism of increasing spell power. As a 100th level wizard compared to a 1st level, my 100th using the same wand as the 1st will do 4 times the damage. The same is true of school spells. Making spells more powerful as we increase power added to sun spells and gear bonuses would just overpower spells very quickly. Using your suggestion, my colossal storm shark would do 4580 damage on the first round of combat with no blades.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
dayerider on Jan 28, 2015 wrote:
interesting concept. We've asked for spells that upgrade before, and never got an answer. I think something like this would be awesome since it would affect all spells. I think they TRIED to do something like this with Link/Powerlink, helping hands/availing hands, etc
Right, I have suggested this in a past thread and I know others have too. I'm still interested in seeing it happen.

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
Lucas Rain on Jan 28, 2015 wrote:
Right, I have suggested this in a past thread and I know others have too. I'm still interested in seeing it happen.
Interesting concept but I still like the idea of having my 1-pip spells if for no other reason than to cast a critical, charmed, boosted 1200 point Fire Cat or Imp for one pip.
I would support a sub-category of "upgraded" versions of early school spells... maybe something that could be purchased with a skill-point. They could actually be an all-new spell like for instance "Trained Fire Cat" which would allow us to keep the original one-pip version as well.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
TucsonWizard on Jan 28, 2015 wrote:
Interesting concept but I still like the idea of having my 1-pip spells if for no other reason than to cast a critical, charmed, boosted 1200 point Fire Cat or Imp for one pip.
I would support a sub-category of "upgraded" versions of early school spells... maybe something that could be purchased with a skill-point. They could actually be an all-new spell like for instance "Trained Fire Cat" which would allow us to keep the original one-pip version as well.
Exactly. And hey, there's no rule that the Level 2 version has to erase the Level 1 version in your spellbook. There's also no rule saying that Level 2 has to cost the same amount of pips as a Level 1. Heck, they could even cost shadow pips. I think people get too bogged down in forewarning about new spells being OP that they miss the really good idea underneath it all.

Survivor
Nov 01, 2013
18
Geographer
Sep 07, 2011
823
Sorry, but there's no need for anything so complex. We gain damage & critical boosts from gear as we level up. We get enchantments to give us bigger buffs and add damage. We get more power pips so we can cast higher rank spells sooner. It's covered. It works great. Having base spells change is unnecessary.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
Gemma Luna on Jan 29, 2015 wrote:
Sorry, but there's no need for anything so complex. We gain damage & critical boosts from gear as we level up. We get enchantments to give us bigger buffs and add damage. We get more power pips so we can cast higher rank spells sooner. It's covered. It works great. Having base spells change is unnecessary.
Ok, but frankly, there's no "need" for most anything in the game. Why do wizards need pets? There was no need for that. Why do we need hatching? There was no need that addressed. Gardening? Fishing? What needs did those address? If you don't approve of the idea, that's fine and I respect that you don't like it, but it's really not about whether it's needed. It's about whether it evokes a reaction from you. It's about whether you think it's cool and whether you would like seeing it. The management will decide what is "needed" after that.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
Lucas Rain on Jan 29, 2015 wrote:
Ok, but frankly, there's no "need" for most anything in the game. Why do wizards need pets? There was no need for that. Why do we need hatching? There was no need that addressed. Gardening? Fishing? What needs did those address? If you don't approve of the idea, that's fine and I respect that you don't like it, but it's really not about whether it's needed. It's about whether it evokes a reaction from you. It's about whether you think it's cool and whether you would like seeing it. The management will decide what is "needed" after that.
Pets provide additional abilities in much the same way as gear. Gardening very much addresses a need by giving rewards of regents, cards and snacks that help with PvP, PvE, Pet Training, Crafting... Fishing opened up new avenues for crafting and also provides something to do during downtime between releases. This is different. It just creates needlessly overpowered low pip spells that are already extremely powerful as they are.

Geographer
Sep 07, 2011
823
Lucas Rain on Jan 29, 2015 wrote:
Ok, but frankly, there's no "need" for most anything in the game. Why do wizards need pets? There was no need for that. Why do we need hatching? There was no need that addressed. Gardening? Fishing? What needs did those address? If you don't approve of the idea, that's fine and I respect that you don't like it, but it's really not about whether it's needed. It's about whether it evokes a reaction from you. It's about whether you think it's cool and whether you would like seeing it. The management will decide what is "needed" after that.
Pets, fishing, gardening all have benefits to players, and they add activity and time sinks to the game.

Reworking existing spells doesn't make sense. It would be OP and a waste of programming resources. I don't think it's cool and I don't want to see it. We get new spells and new gear for a reason.

Explorer
Apr 25, 2010
60
Antonio Shadowbrea... on Jan 12, 2015 wrote:
Since we don't get many new spells as we progress, I always wondered why our beginner lever spells never increase in power?

Granted, I know that everyone will say "as you level up your gear and attributes increase your spells" or (with giant or colossal you get 300 more damage". Those are just modifiers though. I think that as your wizard gains experience, you should be able to level up your spells as well.

For example, I am primarily a myth wizard. My two weakest spells are Blood Bat (1 pip, 70-110 damage, gained at Level 1) and Troll (2 pip, 170-210 damage, gained at Level 5). I'm at Level 82 now and barely even have these spells in my deck anymore. Same with my lower pip minion spells. Wouldn't 80 levels of experience mean that my control and power of this spell is better?

My suggestion would be for wizards to be able to upgrade their learned spells. We're master wizards, not students. Shouldn't we be able to do our starter magic at an advanced level?

Level 1 - original spell
Level 2 - 1st upgrade 15 levels after learned - +25% damage (adds blade on the card)
Level 3 - 2nd upgrade 30 levels after learned - +50% damage (adds two blades)
Level 4 - 3rd upgrade 45 levels after learned - +75% damage (adds three blades)
Level 5 - 4th upgrade 60 levels after learned - +100% damage (essentially a critical every time)

Using Bloodbat as example

Level 1 (Level 1) - 170-210
Level 2 (Level 16) - 215-260
Level 3 (Level 31) - 255-315
Level 4 (Level 46) - 295-365
Level 5 (Level 61) - 340-420

So, a level 5 spell that you've used for 60 levels should be almost twice as effective. Your level 40 spells would be maxed out at level 100. The super strong spells you just got could be even more powerful at level 115 but just imagine if level 160 is possible how strong they would be.

To balance out, maybe every other upgrade raises the pips needed so that Level 5 Blood Bat is now a 3 pip spell instead of just 1 pip.

Just thinking of ways to make all of these great animations useful again since all I ever see now is Medusa and H-frog when I battle or spells from my secondary school which are more useful now than these old student spells. It's a logical progression of spell knowledge (like cure, cura, curaga, etc in almost every RPG) and doesn't require anything other than slapping a blade symbol on the card and adding a damage table to the spells.
I like your idea but we get blades and traps to boost our spells. We also get to improve our spells with sun school spells called Enchantments. The sun spells are spells you have to earn. Your Blood Bat example has too much damage, especially for Level 1. And we have a critical CHANCE for a reason. Thanks!

Timothy IceSinger Level 92 Promethean

Survivor
Aug 27, 2014
7
I like the idea, but learning higher ranked spells and using them shows your mastery. The spells you used like bloodbat and troll were needed to beat lower leveled monsters. If you could upgrade those attacks as you level up then there would be no need for more powerful spells like Medusa. The lower ranked spells are like saying I'm learning how to get control of this type of magic and then the higher ranked spells as stated before show your mastery because they do more damage. Maybe you can suggest a transmute card that changes bloodbat to an angered bloodbat spell that costs 2 pips and maybe does 305-410 damage.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
I think a twist on it could easily be that for every level we upgrade, it costs one more pip. As for a NEED, no, but then many things in the game arent NEEDED.

Survivor
Feb 18, 2011
2
All though yes this is a good question, how would you like going an exalted wizard of any school killing you with example, a Fire cat? That's why they have new spells instead of just increasing the strength of a one pip spell. I believe the base damage for Fire cat is 90-120, So lets say each lets say five levels it gets a 5% increase in strength. I won't do the math to figure out how much that adds up too by the time you're exalted, but I'm pretty sure it would be close to the strength of a non-enchanted Efreet for the cost of one pip

Survivor
Nov 25, 2009
12
dayerider on Feb 1, 2015 wrote:
I think a twist on it could easily be that for every level we upgrade, it costs one more pip. As for a NEED, no, but then many things in the game arent NEEDED.
I agree with that, but I think we'd be perfectly fine without it implemented since it isn't needed, as has been stated many times. The game is fine without them, and I'm sure that there's suggestions to the game that would be more wanted than this (and therefore a better use of time and programming).

Maybe this would be a better idea when they were starting to run short on ideas, but if you're reading this right now that means that you enjoy the game enough already without this idea implemented. That's just my two cents.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2497
Blaze Deathstrider on Feb 2, 2015 wrote:
I agree with that, but I think we'd be perfectly fine without it implemented since it isn't needed, as has been stated many times. The game is fine without them, and I'm sure that there's suggestions to the game that would be more wanted than this (and therefore a better use of time and programming).

Maybe this would be a better idea when they were starting to run short on ideas, but if you're reading this right now that means that you enjoy the game enough already without this idea implemented. That's just my two cents.
oh, I dont think it's NEEDED, just offering up my $.02 USD on the matter :) Many suggestions on these forums are less than critical, and could be filed into the "this would be nice if" type of thing

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
dayerider on Feb 2, 2015 wrote:
oh, I dont think it's NEEDED, just offering up my $.02 USD on the matter :) Many suggestions on these forums are less than critical, and could be filed into the "this would be nice if" type of thing
Exactly. And a good number of them actually have been implemented in spite of their impracticality. But that's how something goes from impractical to necessity, someone acts on it anyway.

The concept of upgrading spells adds a dimension of versatility to old spells, and creates an area for future spells to expand into. It would give the programmers room to make more imaginative, more difficult bosses and less redundant gear stats. The benefits of incorporating an approach like this are pretty clear, it just depends on whether management approves.

Champion
Jun 26, 2009
429
This would be cool if it not only changed the damage output of a spell but the look of it too. If it's supposed to be fire cat unplugged then I don't want to see the same scrawny fire cat with the same attack animation. If the spell is now better it should look more powerful too.