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Tempest fix??

AuthorMessage
Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
I ported into a three vs three fight between three legendary privates and three magus privates because i did not undertand why the system paired these two groups and then I saw something...

The legends going first used tempests, all being storm, hit critical and killed the lower level players. I heard the legend team complaining about winning zero rank points for the win. Immediately two questions came to mind.

Why would the point system pair up these two teams if one side was destined to win ZERO points for a win? Something is wrong there

Then I started to wonder-->did kingsisle include time as a deciding factor in the point system? What a perfect way to detour the first round critical tempest teams by making a quick win translate into zero rank points.

If this is a flawed ranking issue I think i just crafted the solution to first round critical tempests being exploited in team pvp. If one side dies in the first three rounds, no loss and no gain for either side. Thoughts?

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2737
travisAk wrote:
I ported into a three vs three fight between three legendary privates and three magus privates because i did not undertand why the system paired these two groups and then I saw something...

The legends going first used tempests, all being storm, hit critical and killed the lower level players. I heard the legend team complaining about winning zero rank points for the win. Immediately two questions came to mind.

Why would the point system pair up these two teams if one side was destined to win ZERO points for a win? Something is wrong there

Then I started to wonder-->did kingsisle include time as a deciding factor in the point system? What a perfect way to detour the first round critical tempest teams by making a quick win translate into zero rank points.

If this is a flawed ranking issue I think i just crafted the solution to first round critical tempests being exploited in team pvp. If one side dies in the first three rounds, no loss and no gain for either side. Thoughts?


Quite genius. It also prevents loss of rank from server to arena disconnections.

Delver
Aug 15, 2009
272
travisAk wrote:
I ported into a three vs three fight between three legendary privates and three magus privates because i did not undertand why the system paired these two groups and then I saw something...

The legends going first used tempests, all being storm, hit critical and killed the lower level players. I heard the legend team complaining about winning zero rank points for the win. Immediately two questions came to mind.

Why would the point system pair up these two teams if one side was destined to win ZERO points for a win? Something is wrong there

Then I started to wonder-->did kingsisle include time as a deciding factor in the point system? What a perfect way to detour the first round critical tempest teams by making a quick win translate into zero rank points.

If this is a flawed ranking issue I think i just crafted the solution to first round critical tempests being exploited in team pvp. If one side dies in the first three rounds, no loss and no gain for either side. Thoughts?


Tempest is NOT being exploited, storm simply uses tempest because is the only way to actually do some damage... Players over use storm shields all the time, storm attacks do any damage once everyone has a shields.

What is really being exploited is over healing in pvp. Pixie doing 900 of healing now that's exploited. Oh what about satyr doing 1400 of healing you think that's not exploited?

Squire
Aug 04, 2009
555
Well if they did that they were would be a bunch of teams that could just go afk and then farm a bunch of rank points. Or you would see a lot of teams just doing nothing but heal and shield and not even try to win. But to just stay alive and not actually try to attack which would be kind of annoying. I don't think they added that and it is just a coincidence.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
152
That sounds like a good idea. However ... what if you don't kill a person with Tempest? I think I beat a few people with a wraith in the first three rounds of a match before.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2737
Mimzkat101 wrote:
That sounds like a good idea. However ... what if you don't kill a person with Tempest? I think I beat a few people with a wraith in the first three rounds of a match before.


Tempest was an example. I believe the idea is that critical does not become a factor within the first round (off quick kill spells like Wild Bolt, Insane Bolt, Immolate, etc). While you can win the match, you receive no points. You would receive points after the match had gone at least two rounds, where you at least had a chance to defend yourself.

Adherent
Mar 18, 2009
2737
thorvon65 wrote:
Well if they did that they were would be a bunch of teams that could just go afk and then farm a bunch of rank points. Or you would see a lot of teams just doing nothing but heal and shield and not even try to win. But to just stay alive and not actually try to attack which would be kind of annoying. I don't think they added that and it is just a coincidence.


I'm not sure I follow you on why someone would go AFK if the arena was changed to award no points on a first round victory? You would lose if you went AFK, therefore lose points like normal. Same thing with the healing theory, doesn't make sense to me.

Travis is saying nothing has changed except it appears the arena will not award victory points if you win in the very first round of the match. Everything else is still the same.

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
Daviato wrote:
travisAk wrote:
I ported into a three vs three fight between three legendary privates and three magus privates because i did not undertand why the system paired these two groups and then I saw something...

The legends going first used tempests, all being storm, hit critical and killed the lower level players. I heard the legend team complaining about winning zero rank points for the win. Immediately two questions came to mind.

Why would the point system pair up these two teams if one side was destined to win ZERO points for a win? Something is wrong there

Then I started to wonder-->did kingsisle include time as a deciding factor in the point system? What a perfect way to detour the first round critical tempest teams by making a quick win translate into zero rank points.

If this is a flawed ranking issue I think i just crafted the solution to first round critical tempests being exploited in team pvp. If one side dies in the first three rounds, no loss and no gain for either side. Thoughts?


Tempest is NOT being exploited, storm simply uses tempest because is the only way to actually do some damage... Players over use storm shields all the time, storm attacks do any damage once everyone has a shields.

What is really being exploited is over healing in pvp. Pixie doing 900 of healing now that's exploited. Oh what about satyr doing 1400 of healing you think that's not exploited?
Tempest is not the only spell being exploited in group play , other four pip spells like meteor are being used to wipe the other team out in the first round before the get a chance to make a move. This new addition to the system would discourage people to take advantage of the critical system in group play. If implemented, this would give the other side a chance to shield de buff, or cast conviction:
There is a hole in group arena right now, just making suggestions on how to get it filled. You have to see something wrong with one team dying in the first round without making a move.

Champion
Apr 18, 2010
407
thorvon65 wrote:
Well if they did that they were would be a bunch of teams that could just go afk and then farm a bunch of rank points. Or you would see a lot of teams just doing nothing but heal and shield and not even try to win. But to just stay alive and not actually try to attack which would be kind of annoying. I don't think they added that and it is just a coincidence.

There would be a limit to how much points can be obtained in one match (29?)

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
thorvon65 wrote:
Well if they did that they were would be a bunch of teams that could just go afk and then farm a bunch of rank points. Or you would see a lot of teams just doing nothing but heal and shield and not even try to win. But to just stay alive and not actually try to attack which would be kind of annoying. I don't think they added that and it is just a coincidence.


Thorvon, I did not mean for time in a battle to be a deciding factor in point win or loss. The point system in theory could stay exactly the same, only to call the game a tie if one team were to lose early as a result of an exploit in the critical system. I'm just throwing thoughts out there and i appreciate the feedback. If considered this would have to award no win or loss to either team as well as no points awarded or taken away so people couldn't adapt this to better their win loss records. I think this would significantly reduce the x-pip and four pip critical exploits in the arena.

Explorer
May 12, 2010
77
How quickly a match is won, determines how many points is awarded. Hmm, has some merit, but I think this idea needs to be expanded upon.


Squire
Aug 04, 2009
555
Solstice64 wrote:
thorvon65 wrote:
Well if they did that they were would be a bunch of teams that could just go afk and then farm a bunch of rank points. Or you would see a lot of teams just doing nothing but heal and shield and not even try to win. But to just stay alive and not actually try to attack which would be kind of annoying. I don't think they added that and it is just a coincidence.

There would be a limit to how much points can be obtained in one match (29?)


I guess.. But we still got to account that no matter what rank or no rank they can still get 10 arena tickets. So there is still an exploit

Delver
Oct 08, 2010
255
true i think time does play a factor. i mean if a team goes first and does all garg temps and wins first round the other team didnt even get a chance and maybe that was why they didnt get any points?

Survivor
May 06, 2009
1
Tempest should tottally be fix just think about it on a 4 vs 4 every storm does 600 damage with garg on a tempest 600 x 4:2400 even more if there pets give boosts i understand people are saying that it the only way to do damage since people now shield like crazy but thats way to much you have to be an ice to survive to rounds of that and thats even if you survive because one of the storms can critical

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
cesar948 wrote:
Tempest should tottally be fix just think about it on a 4 vs 4 every storm does 600 damage with garg on a tempest 600 x 4:2400 even more if there pets give boosts i understand people are saying that it the only way to do damage since people now shield like crazy but thats way to much you have to be an ice to survive to rounds of that and thats even if you survive because one of the storms can critical
I understand your frustration, when one side is killed in the first round before they get a chance to shield there is a problem. Taking away the ability to gain rank or tickets from an early win would detour these first round critical teams from taking advantage of the exploit in the early stages of the fight.




Delver
Aug 15, 2009
272
cesar948 wrote:
Tempest should tottally be fix just think about it on a 4 vs 4 every storm does 600 damage with garg on a tempest 600 x 4:2400 even more if there pets give boosts i understand people are saying that it the only way to do damage since people now shield like crazy but thats way to much you have to be an ice to survive to rounds of that and thats even if you survive because one of the storms can critical


Another storm spell to change? ugh! Is the only spell we have to actually do some damage... Everyone use storm shields like crazy! Other school like Fire does a lot of damage with meteor I don't see no one complaining about that?

As far as I know if Tempest gets change because everyone complains about it, then give Storm a DoT spell that hits evryone...

Delver
Jul 04, 2010
294
But if you get more tickets/points for longer fights, you could a lot points for a single fight if it's long enough. And if there's a lot of points and a team/s will to do long fights and lose on purpose for crowns/crown items. Or even if they get more than 4 tickets for the loss for the longer fight ... Isn't that just as broken?

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
random1self wrote:
But if you get more tickets/points for longer fights, you could a lot points for a single fight if it's long enough. And if there's a lot of points and a team/s will to do long fights and lose on purpose for crowns/crown items. Or even if they get more than 4 tickets for the loss for the longer fight ... Isn't that just as broken?
I am not proposing the amount of tickets and points to be affected my the entire length of battle, but rather calling it a draw (no rank or point gain/loss)if one of the teams die in the first few rounds from this exploit in the critical system. And I don't mean to single out storm, this would apply to all matches ending in the first few turns. The fact is that storm has the most critical and damage boosts so there are some who would construct perfect damage pets on a four storm team to wipe out a whole team in the first round of play with critical tempest, it's just the most effective school to use. I don't team very often but have heard from friends that this is an issue in 4 vs 4 and was just brainstorming ideas here. In theory if this is happening on a regular basis it puts it up there with chainstunning as an exploit in the critical system.

I in know way want any spell in the game to ever be altered or changed, just throwing around a few ideas

Delver
Jul 04, 2010
294
travisAk wrote:
random1self wrote:
But if you get more tickets/points for longer fights, you could a lot points for a single fight if it's long enough. And if there's a lot of points and a team/s will to do long fights and lose on purpose for crowns/crown items. Or even if they get more than 4 tickets for the loss for the longer fight ... Isn't that just as broken?
I am not proposing the amount of tickets and points to be affected my the entire length of battle, but rather calling it a draw (no rank or point gain/loss)if one of the teams die in the first few rounds from this exploit in the critical system. And I don't mean to single out storm, this would apply to all matches ending in the first few turns. The fact is that storm has the most critical and damage boosts so there are some who would construct perfect damage pets on a four storm team to wipe out a whole team in the first round of play with critical tempest, it's just the most effective school to use. I don't team very often but have heard from friends that this is an issue in 4 vs 4 and was just brainstorming ideas here. In theory if this is happening on a regular basis it puts it up there with chainstunning as an exploit in the critical system.

I in know way want any spell in the game to ever be altered or changed, just throwing around a few ideas


Well, that makes sense but isn't the root of the problem people who can critical fighting those who can't critical block?

So, lets say a team of legendary wizards takes those instal rounds to blade up and shield, the other team is just going to be facing even stronger critical attacks. Unless the entire opposing team had been stacking smokes, stack able weakness, and shields, it's still just a matter of time before a big hit goes through. Balance only needs to worry about tower shields, but, if they go last all of those will be gone by the time balance attacks.

Now for those minimum level 52, have you looked through the new ring and athames? Granted, they're critical resist is rather low, but, some is better than none?

Everyone at or above level 56 should have their crafted winter tusk hat/robe/boots/athame and school only ring (unless you are ice or balance then a crafted ring is a better idea imho). This should give you over 100 critical rating and at least a 70 critical resist. My pyromancer with a 73 block rating has blocked all but 2 critical thrown at him.

Yes I know the WT crafted athame and rings don't give as much heal boost, but, it's better to resist critical attacks to be alive to heal than be critical defeated?

A life wizard should consider crafting a "edge of the green" It'll give them a 40 boost to their critical resist as well as stronger version of their healing spells. My balance wizard with with one equiped has a 95 critical and a 90 critical block.

I just fought a pyromancer in his full water works gear with my legendary balance wizard in her full wt gear, at least 7 or more criticals happened in the entire fight. One doesn't count because it was a critical heal to myself, I landed one critical wand on him but after that every critical was blocked on both sides.

It seems from my experience that if you can hit that "magic" 70 critical block rating you should be good.

Hopefully I'm not coming off as rude, I'm just trying to figure out solutions from what we can do in game.

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
random1self wrote:
travisAk wrote:
random1self wrote:
But if you get more tickets/points for longer fights, you could a lot points for a single fight if it's long enough. And if there's a lot of points and a team/s will to do long fights and lose on purpose for crowns/crown items. Or even if they get more than 4 tickets for the loss for the longer fight ... Isn't that just as broken?
I am not proposing the amount of tickets and points to be affected my the entire length of battle, but rather calling it a draw (no rank or point gain/loss)if one of the teams die in the first few rounds from this exploit in the critical system. And I don't mean to single out storm, this would apply to all matches ending in the first few turns. The fact is that storm has the most critical and damage boosts so there are some who would construct perfect damage pets on a four storm team to wipe out a whole team in the first round of play with critical tempest, it's just the most effective school to use. I don't team very often but have heard from friends that this is an issue in 4 vs 4 and was just brainstorming ideas here. In theory if this is happening on a regular basis it puts it up there with chainstunning as an exploit in the critical system.

I in know way want any spell in the game to ever be altered or changed, just throwing around a few ideas


Well, that makes sense but isn't the root of the problem people who can critical fighting those who can't critical block?

So, lets say a team of legendary wizards takes those instal rounds to blade up and shield, the other team is just going to be facing even stronger critical attacks. Unless the entire opposing team had been stacking smokes, stack able weakness, and shields, it's still just a matter of time before a big hit goes through. Balance only needs to worry about tower shields, but, if they go last all of those will be gone by the time balance attacks.

Now for those minimum level 52, have you looked through the new ring and athames? Granted, they're critical resist is rather low, but, some is better than none?

Everyone at or above level 56 should have their crafted winter tusk hat/robe/boots/athame and school only ring (unless you are ice or balance then a crafted ring is a better idea imho). This should give you over 100 critical rating and at least a 70 critical resist. My pyromancer with a 73 block rating has blocked all but 2 critical thrown at him.

Yes I know the WT crafted athame and rings don't give as much heal boost, but, it's better to resist critical attacks to be alive to heal than be critical defeated?

A life wizard should consider crafting a "edge of the green" It'll give them a 40 boost to their critical resist as well as stronger version of their healing spells. My balance wizard with with one equiped has a 95 critical and a 90 critical block.

I just fought a pyromancer in his full water works gear with my legendary balance wizard in her full wt gear, at least 7 or more criticals happened in the entire fight. One doesn't count because it was a critical heal to myself, I landed one critical wand on him but after that every critical was blocked on both sides.

It seems from my experience that if you can hit that "magic" 70 critical block rating you should be good.

Hopefully I'm not coming off as rude, I'm just trying to figure out solutions from what we can do in game.
Not rude at all, I actually like your line of thinking. Having in game solutions like block gear is is a good thing for people experiencing this issue, however critical chance is typically a higher integer than critical block so I wonder how it would fair off in the arena considering first turn advantage. Good reading though :)

Delver
Feb 18, 2010
252
Daviato wrote:
travisAk wrote:
I ported into a three vs three fight between three legendary privates and three magus privates because i did not undertand why the system paired these two groups and then I saw something...

The legends going first used tempests, all being storm, hit critical and killed the lower level players. I heard the legend team complaining about winning zero rank points for the win. Immediately two questions came to mind.

Why would the point system pair up these two teams if one side was destined to win ZERO points for a win? Something is wrong there

Then I started to wonder-->did kingsisle include time as a deciding factor in the point system? What a perfect way to detour the first round critical tempest teams by making a quick win translate into zero rank points.

If this is a flawed ranking issue I think i just crafted the solution to first round critical tempests being exploited in team pvp. If one side dies in the first three rounds, no loss and no gain for either side. Thoughts?


Tempest is NOT being exploited, storm simply uses tempest because is the only way to actually do some damage... Players over use storm shields all the time, storm attacks do any damage once everyone has a shields.

What is really being exploited is over healing in pvp. Pixie doing 900 of healing now that's exploited. Oh what about satyr doing 1400 of healing you think that's not exploited?


You say storm can't do any damage without Tempest when they have Storm Lord, Triton, and now the Levi? You now make me feel like your really immature now. As for the healing, I bet my tortilla chips (well not really)you'll want Life spells to overheal once you get a grand/legend life character with a good crit chance. If i mean. I know, I know, this doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand

Champion
Apr 18, 2010
407
I just realized something. If this lasted for lets say about the first three rounds, not only would it fix low pip AoE spamming, but down ranking as well.