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Cheating bosses? Really?

2
AuthorMessage
Historian
May 15, 2009
673
moviebuff3000 wrote:
Firefan02 wrote:
Thechaosmagician wrote:
[
if you are gonna keep whining about how "unfair" it is
then just quit
doesnt really matter, for how many people quit i know for a fact more than half will come back after their little rage quit.


Telling people to quit whining and quit is rude and unproductive. They have their opinion and you have yours. Suggesting strategies to beat them is a better thing to do.

There is an old rule of thumb-when one person is dissatisfied a business can lose one hundred customers. They tell ten people and they tell ten people so on and so forth. I have seen that play out.

Wizard101 is marketed as a family/ any age game. They need to make their game match that IMO. That is a different market than a hardcore gamer site. If the majority of the players are struggling something is wrong and it needs to be corrected. I know more of my friends are struggling than not.

Megan



Yes, I agree. I am not sure how many players KI lost when they released GH on the live realm and all bosses in the whole spiral was cheating before they changed it back to normal. How many more people do they have to lose before they understand that putting cheating bosses as non-optional is not the way to go? Maybe they could put an optional tower in Celestia like Briskbreeze for all of the hardcore gamers at level 60. As I have said before Celestia is hard enough as it is, do we really need cheating bosses?


why do you think they are cheating?
is it wrong for KI to add a new level of difficulty?
i mean for goodness sake its for 50+
its supposed to be hard
this game also encourages working together with friends
so people need to stop trying to solo bosses in this world like they could in dragonspyre
this world is on a whole new level and you can die very easily
but what you call "cheating" i call a new challenge
you need to think outside the box and use your wits to defeat the bosses that have these new special rules
if you don't like it then just don't do celestia

Hero
May 27, 2009
757
jaronuts wrote:
willwolf64 wrote:
Okay, it's not fair that a lot of the bosses get to cheat. Cheating is supposed to be for special towers like Briskbreeze and Warehouse, not a whole world. In the Stellarium every time me or my firend did a Fire spell, an Elemental Shield automatically appeared on the guy. Also, it says: "Fire? Again?" and then he does a Meteor Strike. I know CL is supposed to be hard, but cheating? KI please make it so the bosses don't cheat! Thanks!


4 of us level 50's were fighting Eeglis and we were dropping like flies.

DO NOT USE SATYR while fighting him. In EVERY instance it will trigger him to use the 7 pip Balance School Power Nova (looks like a fire spell really).

We realized that the only way to win was to stop using all health spells, flee on low health, drink a potion and come back fresh.

It took us all several trips but we got him.


Actually, it's any spell of 4 pips or more that triggers Eeglis's Nova - It's safe to use Unicorn, Fairy or Pixie, Dryad and Sprite. X pip spells like Tempest are ok too. It's a strange battle strategy to learn, but my group of 4 also had to flee and port back several times before we beat him. The last time my Life ported in she removed all Satyrs and Rebirths and then it was just the attackers who had to remember not to hit with the wrong thing.

Survivor
Mar 07, 2009
17
Don't think of it as cheating, think of it as a puzzle. Cheating bosses have rules that go along with them but if you follow these rules then the fight is basically a normal fight.

In this case, since I don't know if you've figured it out, casting a spell of the same school twice in a row on him will result in the "X magic, again???" message. Simply cast a spell of a different school after your first spell and he will not cheat.

Survivor
Jul 01, 2010
33
Not all bosses cheat. Only the stellarium and test of the spheres bosses and non-quest bosses like Eeglis and Cuthalla cheat.
And the point is, you need to learn from your mistakes and figure out what triggers the cheat or learn from others' mistakes by reading the guides at W101 Central.

Eeglis will only cheat if you use spells rank 4+. Cuthalla cheats when you use spells lower than rank 4, including blades, traps, shields, etc.
Selwyn, the stellarium boss, when hit by 2 attacks of the same school in a row, uses the opposite school rank 6 or 7 spell with a blade.

Survivor
Jul 20, 2009
32
you nag to much O_O Ithink some bosses should cheat and others not. like in the grotto, some bosses have a damage thing were you have to hit over a certain amount for it to do any damage. cheating.i'm not sure on which side I stand with that.

John Moonhunter (still) 50 Balance
Ryan Jadewielder (haven't checked in a while) ?? Life

Survivor
Jul 20, 2009
32
then there should be a person next to each of them that tells you before you fight them like in briskbreeze.

Champion
Apr 18, 2010
403
moviebuff3000 wrote:
The ends dont justify the means. This is a kids game after all and what kind of an example is it to show kids that it is ok to cheat? Celestia is hard enough as it is, do we really need cheating bosses also? We get enemies that do high level spells, high level damage and such, do we really need bosses that cheat also? People wanted Celestia to be a challenge and it is but we also dont need cheating bosses? Cheaters never prosper.


I have actually found ways to make them not cheat............ Its a glitch.

Survivor
May 25, 2009
9
cheating enemies best thing ever! it makes the game more challenging, which i find fun and it's nice to know what ech enemies cheats are too 8)

Survivor
Feb 11, 2009
1

wizard101 should take off the powers like Friends lets drank thier health
and like fire again! that is why i am defeated most of the time and it is making me really mad!

Squire
Apr 18, 2010
589
willwolf64 wrote:
Okay, it's not fair that a lot of the bosses get to cheat. Cheating is supposed to be for special towers like Briskbreeze and Warehouse, not a whole world. In the Stellarium every time me or my firend did a Fire spell, an Elemental Shield automatically appeared on the guy. Also, it says: "Fire? Again?" and then he does a Meteor Strike. I know CL is supposed to be hard, but cheating? KI please make it so the bosses don't cheat! Thanks!

*EDIT*: Actually, I've had a change of heart. It's actually a small price to pay for all the awesome new Astral spells, high XP, great drops, excellent level 58 spells, and really short dungeons. I beat Celestia already, so who am I to even care now anyway. It's not actually that bad. I like how the last boss cheats. The way the keeps putting Smoke Screens every time you attack her. I LOVE IT! Anyway, great work, KI! Keep it up!


I agree with the *EDIT*.

Squire
Apr 18, 2010
589
Thechaosmagician wrote:
how about you go fight rattle bones or lord nightshade if you dont want cheating bosses!
seriously if you cant take bosses that make the battles not straight forward and force you to think OUTSIDE the box
then don't play at all because that is what KI is trying to do
i got tired of the battles going the same way every fight
but with bosses that "cheat" you never know what might happen, this makes it a much better challenge

Samuel Duskmancer- Level 49 Necromancer
Samuel Dragonsword-Level 54 Diviner
Samuel Shadowmancer-Level 46 Theurgist


There, in your other post you said you had 2 legends but you dont.

Survivor
Oct 30, 2010
1
Well the way I see it, KI just hurt themselves calling it "cheating" in the first place.

I don't consider it cheatiing, it's just boss mechanics. I come from World of Warcraft and there ALL bosses do things players can't do. The solution is simple: get a few friends to help, and if even then the added firepower is not enough, figure out a strategy.

Once you do, "cheating" bosses are as easy to deal with as any other, if not easier, seeing as how much they rely on their "cheat" mechanic to own players. If people just jump into a fight and do their setup for their big hit like they were soloing trash mobs, they are gonna hit the floor fast and hard.

In a few words: Thanks KI for the added challenge and variety to the fights. "Blade, Elemental Blades, Dragon, Heal-up-and-wait" was becoming boring.

Edit:
To all the "This is a faily oriented game so it should be easier", "if you dont like Celestia go kill Rattlebone" and "KI just want to force us to spend money on potions" posters:

1)
The main problem here is that Wizard101 still lacks what I call the "community content knowledge" needed to make this level of difficulty an asset rather than an issue. If all the "cheat" mechanics from all bosses in the Spiral were up on the internet, and easy to find for anyone who googled them (like they are for WoW bosses), people would know what to do, how to set up their decks, and whether or not they will need help for a certain fight, making higher levels of difficulty accessible to a larger playerbase, thus making the game more appealing. Sadly for the less hardcore, that is good for the product (W101) and the company selling it (KI), and the only way for a game to generate such community content knowledge is for "hard, almost unbeatable content" to exist.

2)
This is an MMO, anyone expecting to be able to solo it all just like that is probably choosing the wrong type of game, not just the wrong game, to spend their time on

3)
I don't think W101, no matter how family-oriented it is, was ever intended to be the kind of game where you set your deck with a few blades, a couple heals and your bigger damage spell and just blast through the content. I think those who want the game to go like that so they can watch all the content fighting the same way they fought Rattlebone, only with different spells, will be disappointed.

4)
You DEFINITELY DONT NEED elixirs to beat anything in this game.


Just my $0.02

Historian
May 15, 2009
673
DavidStronghunter1... wrote:
Thechaosmagician wrote:
how about you go fight rattle bones or lord nightshade if you dont want cheating bosses!
seriously if you cant take bosses that make the battles not straight forward and force you to think OUTSIDE the box
then don't play at all because that is what KI is trying to do
i got tired of the battles going the same way every fight
but with bosses that "cheat" you never know what might happen, this makes it a much better challenge

Samuel Duskmancer- Level 49 Necromancer
Samuel Dragonsword-Level 54 Diviner
Samuel Shadowmancer-Level 46 Theurgist


There, in your other post you said you had 2 legends but you dont.


for one this post is very old
it was posted during one of the first few days celestia opened
and your trying to contradict me on a post that was BEFORE i leveled my characters??

Survivor
Sep 13, 2010
4
Thechaosmagician wrote:
bgmacaw wrote:
Programming a game so that it cheats is lazy programming. Any programmer can write a program that cheats to win. A truly skilled programmer can create a game program that challenges while not frustrating and annoying players.

I thought the programming staff at KI was quite skilled when I first saw the game, and that's coming from someone with over 20 years of software development experience. I was very impressed with what I saw. Now, post-Celestia, I'm not so sure. Have they given up? Gotten lazy and uncreative? Or just given bad specs and implementing as best they can?


or is that players dont want a challenge and just want to be lazy and have everything handed to them on a silver platter

seriously
its not even cheating
its like the law
you follow the rules and you can go on your merry way
but break the rules and well... there has to be some consequences
if you dont like that then just dont play in celestia
its that simple
i like the bosses because it means i have to be wary with what i do in the fight
its always fun to go back and try beating it again with a different strategy

but in RL your told what the rules are! I can't seem to find any place to tell me what rules go to what boss and I'm a solo player most of the time and I'm getting irritated that there are 5 bosses in a row with their own set of rules i cant use to play by, maybe there should be different difficulties in different realms so that the people who need the challenge of getting there rumps handed to them 6 or 7 times b4 they win can, and the rest of us who just want to relax after a hard day and fight some fights and move on with the plot.

A+ Student
Feb 25, 2009
1534
moviebuff3000 wrote:
The ends dont justify the means. This is a kids game after all and what kind of an example is it to show kids that it is ok to cheat? Celestia is hard enough as it is, do we really need cheating bosses also? We get enemies that do high level spells, high level damage and such, do we really need bosses that cheat also? People wanted Celestia to be a challenge and it is but we also dont need cheating bosses? Cheaters never prosper.


First off, you are wrong about it being a kids game. It is an ALL AGE game.
And the way I see it, is that if you or your child can beat the CHEATING
bosses, then you have proven that CHEATING is wrong. CHEATERS don't win.

I also happen to know a couple of kids that have already beaten Celestia.

Other than a few possible minors bugs Celestia is fine just the way it is.

Survivor
Jun 07, 2010
12
Oh honestly movie buff! its a game for all ages not just little kids and i dont think it shows them the fact that not everything will be handed to them on a silver platter in life stop complaining if you find the bossesto tough just dont do celestia as simple as that.

Mastermind
Feb 16, 2009
329
I agree and disagree, both to a fault, with the OP.

I'll start with why I disagree. As many have (quite rudely) pointed out, cheating bosses have guidelines. If you step over those guidelines, you get axed.

Well, geez! That sounds so terrible! If that's the case, how do we avoid it?! It's not like there's a giant line of text that pops up whenever we step over your stupid 'guidelines'! It's impossible to learn from our mistakes and adjust the way it is now!

My point is, cheating bosses can be avoided. I actually like most of the cheating bosses. They put some strategy into the game, rather than blade-trap-Gargantuan-Helephant-repeat.

On a separate note, if you read the update notes, Selwyn and Unimatus are about to stop cheating, which may upset some people, but think of it this way. I'll FINALLY be able to farm them! Who knows what awesome junk they keep in their pockets that we haven't seen yet?

On the flipside, I have to agree with the OP.

Dramatization:

Eeglis casts a Cheat Power Nova.

Me: ??? Alright, then, wise guy. I'll see your Power Nova and raise you one bladed Ra!

Sothmekhet takes two turns to cast a Cheat Hex.

Me: Oh, please! Ice Shield, Hex you back, jerk!

Cuthalla casts a Cheat Satyr and heals 5000.

Me: Err.... Dang, I can't match that! >:(

I can respect most cheating bosses, for while they don't play by the rules, they can still do stuff that we can do. Bosses like Cuthalla, that first boss in Briskbreeze whose name I forget, and a few others upset me a little. Because THEY'RE the ones that REALLY cheat. It's not cheating, per se, if they do stuff that we can match, or even top, but stuff like a 5000 heal Satyr or a Meteor Strike for up to 13000? Hrm... :x :x :x

Although defeating them would be a great accomplishment the way they are now, maybe those Big Cheat Bosses need to dial it down a smidge. Anybody agree?

Explorer
Dec 08, 2009
55
I am glad you have a change of heart :) I also like the cheating bosses, it restricts your moves and requires a higher level of strategy. Although they are apparently changing these bosses [ :( ] I enjoyed the challenge very much!

Defender
Feb 23, 2010
163
moviebuff3000 wrote:
The ends dont justify the means. This is a kids game after all and what kind of an example is it to show kids that it is ok to cheat? Celestia is hard enough as it is, do we really need cheating bosses also? We get enemies that do high level spells, high level damage and such, do we really need bosses that cheat also? People wanted Celestia to be a challenge and it is but we also dont need cheating bosses? Cheaters never prosper.


First of all, this is not a kid's game. It's a game for players of all ages, including kids. That means you have to mix things up a bit. You don't want to make it so that you have to have a Ph.D. to figure the game out, but you don't want it to be too easy either. I think KI does a pretty good job most of the time maintaining a proper balance. Secondly, I think you're taking the term "cheating boss" a little too literally. There is no cheating involved. KI sets up the manner in which each enemy fights. No boss can operate outside of that programming. "Cheating bosses" are simply designed to fight a little differently than the other bosses. Also, for each cheating boss, there is a tactic that we can use to counter those tricks or prevent them from occurring. It's simply a matter of paying attention to what sets off those cheats. As for the kids who play the game, a lot of times it seems it's the kids who first discover the tricks. Please just relax and enjoy the game. The "cheating bosses" aren't setting a bad example for the kids who play Wizard101, they're helping them develop their problem solving skills.

Defender
Feb 23, 2010
163
bgmacaw wrote:
Thechaosmagician wrote:

or is that players dont want a challenge and just want to be lazy and have everything handed to them on a silver platter


Not at all. It is lazy programming to program in an arbitrary cheat for bosses. It is excellent programming to improve the game AI so that it's challenging to players, such as adjusting itself based on the number of players in a fight and so forth, in a seamless manner.

And it's more than just not playing Celestia, it's me and my family not playing Wizard101 at all and moving on to other, more player/customer friendly and better programmed, online games.



Then leave. I really don't like making comments like that, but I for one am so sick and tired of watching KI dumb down the game every time a group of whiners decide to complain every time KI puts something a little bit challenging in the game. If you can't take it, go play with some pokeman cards and leave the rest of us alone. Oh, and what KI has done in Celestia is the opposite of lazy programming. Lazy programming would have been making Celestia exactly like every other area and simply adding to the health and attack numbers generated by the enemies. Instead, KI went out of their way to mix things up a little. We have to learn new school weaknesses for the enemies in Celestia for example. It's not the simple each school has one opposite school deal. As for the so-called cheating bosses, outside of the test of the spheres and the final boss of the Stellarium, they're all optional. Oh, and the big cheat in the Stellarium is the boss doesn't like it when you hit him with the same attack twice. That's easy to deal with. Either do the area with a friend from a different school, or build up your attacks the right way so that the second attack kills him. You already have an advantage over him. He's an astral school boss, which means his power pips are worthless and only function as normal pips for him when it comes to attacks. That gives you plenty of time to properly boost your attacks.

Defender
Feb 23, 2010
163
kaskait wrote:
Thechaosmagician wrote:
bgmacaw wrote:
Thechaosmagician wrote:

or is that players dont want a challenge and just want to be lazy and have everything handed to them on a silver platter


Not at all. It is lazy programming to program in an arbitrary cheat for bosses. It is excellent programming to improve the game AI so that it's challenging to players, such as adjusting itself based on the number of players in a fight and so forth, in a seamless manner.

And it's more than just not playing Celestia, it's me and my family not playing Wizard101 at all and moving on to other, more player/customer friendly and better programmed, online games.



oh so i gather your just a lazy player who wants everything straight forward
as i have said its not cheating
they dont cheat every turn they dont multicast
i mean seriously follow the rules
if you cant handle following the rules of what you call a boss "cheating" then i suggest you take you and your "family" to another game because it sickens me how many people whine about these bosses, when its these bosses that make it more fun to truly test yourself.
but you don't seem to understand this
its not lazy programing
it makes a fight more interesting thus the term "harder"
if you truly dont want bosses who "cheat" then go fight in wizard city or something...


Don't make me laugh.

Its not testing a player to play against cheating bosses. Its just taking more health from players that doesn't need to happen.

I've been in Stellarium and a boss in there cheated every round against me and the minions I purchased. And this wasn't even triggered by heals.

They need to turn the dial down on this area. They will lose players. Especially since the whole zone looks like a money grab by forcing people to buy critical potions and minions.


That's funny. I've beaten Celestia with a wizard from every school, and I've never once needed to buy a henchman for a battle. yeah, I had to team up with others to do the test of the spheres, but that's no different than what Mallistaire's lair was. In fact, buying the henchman probably hurt you in the stellarium. The key to that boss is that he doesn't like it when you attack the same way twice. Henchman will continue to do that, thus activating the boss' "cheat". The best option for beating this guy is to team up with someone from a different school or to take out the minion and then take your time to fully build up your attack on the boss. That way, if you have to hit him a second time with the same magic, the hit will kill him and he can't respond. In the test of the spheres, only the first boss is challenging. It's also the only reason you need to team up to beat the place. You simply have to use an AOE spell to take out the minions, use a wand attack to take down his shield, and then let the other players fire away at him. the second boss is just ridiculously easy. Don't lay any traps. he'll put up a 90% tower shield, but every time you put up a blade, all of his shields disappear. The key is to simply make sure someone casts a blade spell before launching a second attack on him. The final boss simply casts smoke screens. Just keep putting up blades and traps, and when you have enough up, the boss stops. So, with the exception of the first boss in the test of the spheres, none of the required cheating bosses is really all that tough, and even that one isn't a big problem if you have a friend or two. You simply have to coordinate your attacks.

Defender
Feb 23, 2010
163
Zelthio wrote:
Well the way I see it, KI just hurt themselves calling it "cheating" in the first place.

I don't consider it cheatiing, it's just boss mechanics. I come from World of Warcraft and there ALL bosses do things players can't do. The solution is simple: get a few friends to help, and if even then the added firepower is not enough, figure out a strategy.

Once you do, "cheating" bosses are as easy to deal with as any other, if not easier, seeing as how much they rely on their "cheat" mechanic to own players. If people just jump into a fight and do their setup for their big hit like they were soloing trash mobs, they are gonna hit the floor fast and hard.

In a few words: Thanks KI for the added challenge and variety to the fights. "Blade, Elemental Blades, Dragon, Heal-up-and-wait" was becoming boring.

Edit:
To all the "This is a faily oriented game so it should be easier", "if you dont like Celestia go kill Rattlebone" and "KI just want to force us to spend money on potions" posters:

1)
The main problem here is that Wizard101 still lacks what I call the "community content knowledge" needed to make this level of difficulty an asset rather than an issue. If all the "cheat" mechanics from all bosses in the Spiral were up on the internet, and easy to find for anyone who googled them (like they are for WoW bosses), people would know what to do, how to set up their decks, and whether or not they will need help for a certain fight, making higher levels of difficulty accessible to a larger playerbase, thus making the game more appealing. Sadly for the less hardcore, that is good for the product (W101) and the company selling it (KI), and the only way for a game to generate such community content knowledge is for "hard, almost unbeatable content" to exist.

2)
This is an MMO, anyone expecting to be able to solo it all just like that is probably choosing the wrong type of game, not just the wrong game, to spend their time on

3)
I don't think W101, no matter how family-oriented it is, was ever intended to be the kind of game where you set your deck with a few blades, a couple heals and your bigger damage spell and just blast through the content. I think those who want the game to go like that so they can watch all the content fighting the same way they fought Rattlebone, only with different spells, will be disappointed.

4)
You DEFINITELY DONT NEED elixirs to beat anything in this game.

Just my $0.02


I completely agree with almost everything you've said here. the one point that I would make is that there already is a wealth of online knowledge relating to Wizard101. Besides Wizard101's own message boards on its webpage, there's wizard101central (which now also includes the old wizard101 game wiki). If you look around there, you can find detailed descriptions of how to deal with every boss, including the cheating ones. You can find all of the recipes and where you can get them. You can find lists of all of the gear and their stats, as well as all of the spells for each school and what you have to do or where you have to go to get them. Seriously, pretty much every question you have you can find answers for there. If you have trouble finding what you're looking for, just google the name of the boss and you'll get a link that takes you to the right place.

Survivor
Sep 29, 2009
35
I know what you al mean! I've dueled some bosses in Celestia that have all been able to cheat and it gets annoying doesn't it? Here's a list of all the CL bosses I've fought (some cheat, some don't) : Marcio, Ptolemos, Astreus, Mithraya, Narallor Nightborn, and Cuthalla (Stormriven edition).

2