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the useless schools for darkmoor

AuthorMessage
Survivor
Jul 14, 2012
22
how come there are so many people who want that perfect team and would deny anyone who isn't life fire storm or even death and just ignore the other 3? my myth has been having a very difficult time trying to get a team for darkmoor. everyone just leaves when there isn't a life or a storm. Is myth even useful in darkmoor? some one help?

Illuminator
May 22, 2009
1309
IMO there is no "perfect" mixture of schools to take in darkmoor. It is the people controlling the Wizards that make a good team. I don't really want to offend anyone, but I prefer not to battle with people who think you have to use certain schools within a team. Every one i have met who thinks like that has been rude to me and others. I am not saying all of them are like that, just the ones I have encountered.

As for Myth in darkmoor...I have taken each school through darkmoor. Of all the schools, I found Myth to be very effective, especially after getting the mystic colossus spell. Just keep looking, eventually you will find some experienced players who know how to diversify.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
archmagemyth on Jun 12, 2015 wrote:
how come there are so many people who want that perfect team and would deny anyone who isn't life fire storm or even death and just ignore the other 3? my myth has been having a very difficult time trying to get a team for darkmoor. everyone just leaves when there isn't a life or a storm. Is myth even useful in darkmoor? some one help?
my death wizard had the same problem~ balance and storm had no trouble finding groups, but poor valerian waited hours before anyone would take him.

i'm on a break from it now (because, quite frankly, it stresses me out, is boring, and puts me in a terrible mood... and you're stuck with me for the entire instance). grumpy von is not nice and helpful, which is why grumpy von does not make appearances in long, cheat-y, annoying dungeons.

however, if i do decide to start up again, you are welcome to join me anytime, on any of my wizards.

-(happy, non-grumpy) von
exalted

Champion
Mar 27, 2011
405
The perfect team is the one that works together. I like Death and Myth. There are no useless schools, only some players who lack the vision to use them well.

Delver
Aug 31, 2012
206
I may be life but I still get denied too. It's not only myth that's getting denied, some really picky teams want the "best" life they can get. They especially want jade lifes, and if a team sees a jade life sometimes they will reject me and add the jade to their "perfect team". I could just write pages full of all the disadvantages of jade gear. I feel really bad for all the schools getting rejected, but what makes me angry is that some people want the best of each school. It's very difficult for beginners in Darkmoor to find teams cause I'm sure some picky people check your stats before inviting you to join their team. That's happened to me often.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
People abandon between 35-85% of the times you enter a Darkmoor dungeon. Why? Because people are hedging their bets. They want a quick and easy win with very little thought--which is extremely selfish, though understandable. It's a community problem. It is now the norm to be ultra-protective over your time investment instead of being more lenient, or more deliberate and thoughtful about the players you're teaming with.
  • Team-Up problems contribute to this issue significantly. You can't tell what someone's team role is, you can't tell what someone's level is, you can't see their stats, you can't see whether they want to do the whole dungeon or just the mid-boss. People would have fewer reasons to abandon teams if you could see this information. Easy fix.
  • KI hasn't given us any community-based support to help curb the cherry-picking. They could make a harmless in-game announcement here and there about how Myth, Death, and Ice are extremely useful, or even make a strategy PSA about ways they can support others in a dungeon (they can hit, they can protect, they can heal, they can de-buff, etc.). If it's left up to the players to look this stuff up independently, then the people who need that information most are never going to hear it.

So those are the suggestions I have to help make the problem go away.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2197
Lucas Rain on Jun 15, 2015 wrote:
People abandon between 35-85% of the times you enter a Darkmoor dungeon. Why? Because people are hedging their bets. They want a quick and easy win with very little thought--which is extremely selfish, though understandable. It's a community problem. It is now the norm to be ultra-protective over your time investment instead of being more lenient, or more deliberate and thoughtful about the players you're teaming with.
  • Team-Up problems contribute to this issue significantly. You can't tell what someone's team role is, you can't tell what someone's level is, you can't see their stats, you can't see whether they want to do the whole dungeon or just the mid-boss. People would have fewer reasons to abandon teams if you could see this information. Easy fix.
  • KI hasn't given us any community-based support to help curb the cherry-picking. They could make a harmless in-game announcement here and there about how Myth, Death, and Ice are extremely useful, or even make a strategy PSA about ways they can support others in a dungeon (they can hit, they can protect, they can heal, they can de-buff, etc.). If it's left up to the players to look this stuff up independently, then the people who need that information most are never going to hear it.

So those are the suggestions I have to help make the problem go away.
or they could just make dungeons such as these without 4 billion cheats :P That would help too. I say this tongue in cheek because it's not too bad, just time consuming. However, it's all the cheats that make people cherry pick because of the time required. Sure, we've all seen the braggart who can solo the whole of darkmoor in a minute or two solo, but that's the .00000000000000000000000000000000001% of the players. MOST players, I would guess, take a few hours per section, because of all the cheating that is beyond our control. I dont mind a hard, highly obtainable fight, but most people don't have that kind of time to dwell hours on a single fight. The length of time, due to cheats, has caused this picky streak to happen, and only KI can change this. I'm not saying to nerf the dungeons, Im saying to learn from darkmoor and do better in regards to time management requirements in the future

Delver
Mar 13, 2010
299
I guess you could say I have one of those "perfect" groups for Darkmoor. We've done it at least 50 times trying to get gear for all four of us. One is currently taking a break from the game, so we've been taking along other people.

Note, our "perfect team" was one Storm, two balance and a not-Jade life. We've done it (same players, different characters) with two Storm, one balance, one Jade death, or one Storm, one Jade death, one not-Jade death and a Jade balance.

It all depends on the strategies, and no school is useless, but due to Shane's cheats, I dread the days when we have to go with no Storm. That battle is significantly more challenging than Malistaire - and while two fire can take care of Yevgeny & Mali easily, not having a storm in Shane isn't something I look forward to. No stealing/using the supercharge, waiting for full pip backdraft, all of it is going to turn out 45min-1hour into 1-2hours.

For the record, we tried to find a Myth last night, and couldn't. We never look for fire. We have had excellent runs with ice & death as our fourth, as well.

It is a dungeon I'd never enter without a Life (or a very good non-life Jade healer) though. The complete disaster a dead hitter having to flee causes is a colossal waste of time.

It saddens me to think that people need a PSA to see the value of any specific school in the dungeon, though. Really?

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
dayerider on Jun 16, 2015 wrote:
or they could just make dungeons such as these without 4 billion cheats :P That would help too. I say this tongue in cheek because it's not too bad, just time consuming. However, it's all the cheats that make people cherry pick because of the time required. Sure, we've all seen the braggart who can solo the whole of darkmoor in a minute or two solo, but that's the .00000000000000000000000000000000001% of the players. MOST players, I would guess, take a few hours per section, because of all the cheating that is beyond our control. I dont mind a hard, highly obtainable fight, but most people don't have that kind of time to dwell hours on a single fight. The length of time, due to cheats, has caused this picky streak to happen, and only KI can change this. I'm not saying to nerf the dungeons, Im saying to learn from darkmoor and do better in regards to time management requirements in the future
lol, i agree.

my issue with cheats is not related to the difficulty level; it's that they require a huge time investment and that the payoff is not equal to the work required.

at this point, it's like going to work for a chance at a paycheck. if your boss paid 5 cents an hour, but a select few got paid 50 dollars an hour, would you keep that job?

i use team up. a lot. i don't have a team of friends at my disposal. but i've been through the instance enough times that i know what the cheats are and how to counter them, and am more than happy to teach others who may be on their first run. but that doesn't change everything else that's wrong with this instance.

in order for it to work, one or many of these needs to happen:

1) instance length is decreased
2) token system (trade x keys for gear, same way arena tickets work for pvp)
3) gear within x rounds

just my 2 cents, for what they are worth.

-von

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2197
Dr Von on Jun 17, 2015 wrote:
lol, i agree.

my issue with cheats is not related to the difficulty level; it's that they require a huge time investment and that the payoff is not equal to the work required.

at this point, it's like going to work for a chance at a paycheck. if your boss paid 5 cents an hour, but a select few got paid 50 dollars an hour, would you keep that job?

i use team up. a lot. i don't have a team of friends at my disposal. but i've been through the instance enough times that i know what the cheats are and how to counter them, and am more than happy to teach others who may be on their first run. but that doesn't change everything else that's wrong with this instance.

in order for it to work, one or many of these needs to happen:

1) instance length is decreased
2) token system (trade x keys for gear, same way arena tickets work for pvp)
3) gear within x rounds

just my 2 cents, for what they are worth.

-von
the 2nd part is truly the longest with all the fights. yes, I know some can be avoided, but you have to ask yourself, if they can be avoided, why have them at all? I say, remove the ones you can avoid (please, for all that is holy, do NOT make them no longer avoidable!!), which will shorten up the second run completely and fall in line with your option #1.

Delver
Mar 13, 2010
299
dayerider on Jun 17, 2015 wrote:
the 2nd part is truly the longest with all the fights. yes, I know some can be avoided, but you have to ask yourself, if they can be avoided, why have them at all? I say, remove the ones you can avoid (please, for all that is holy, do NOT make them no longer avoidable!!), which will shorten up the second run completely and fall in line with your option #1.
I also think it would be better if Graveyard were three separate instances instead of a single dungeon.

Then, farming gear would only take Mali fight. Or athame Yevgeny. Or Shane - well he doesn't drop much and he's the worst.

Explorer
Jul 24, 2010
67
I have never been to Darkmoor before, but you guys are terrifying me.

Andrew Sandgem
Level 40

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
dayerider on Jun 17, 2015 wrote:
the 2nd part is truly the longest with all the fights. yes, I know some can be avoided, but you have to ask yourself, if they can be avoided, why have them at all? I say, remove the ones you can avoid (please, for all that is holy, do NOT make them no longer avoidable!!), which will shorten up the second run completely and fall in line with your option #1.
yes, yes, and yes, in that order.

like, my balance wizard has most of the gear. all i need are her boots and amulet, but i have to go through the other 2 battles thousands of times (because, let's face it, most people using team up quit before the shane fight ends) before i ever make it to malistaire.

i also agree with @paige dragonspear~ shane is the hardest of the 3, and his drops are the absolute worst. so please, for the love of dragons and everything that is sacred, make that fight avoidable (unless someone in the group has the quest).

-von

Delver
Jun 29, 2011
213
boom459 on Jun 17, 2015 wrote:
I have never been to Darkmoor before, but you guys are terrifying me.

Andrew Sandgem
Level 40
Be afraid. Be very afraid...

Seriously though -- Castle Darkmoor is a really challenging dungeon, but you'll make it through just like everyone else. Whether or not you persevere to get good gear is a different matter.

Wolf Windrider

Delver
Mar 13, 2010
299
Dr Von on Jun 18, 2015 wrote:
yes, yes, and yes, in that order.

like, my balance wizard has most of the gear. all i need are her boots and amulet, but i have to go through the other 2 battles thousands of times (because, let's face it, most people using team up quit before the shane fight ends) before i ever make it to malistaire.

i also agree with @paige dragonspear~ shane is the hardest of the 3, and his drops are the absolute worst. so please, for the love of dragons and everything that is sacred, make that fight avoidable (unless someone in the group has the quest).

-von
The boots are worth it, possibly, but the amulet? I'd kiosk team up for Morganthe. Hers is, for all schools, nearly as good - or arguably better - and now that Darkmoor spells are out, if there's a storm, its a 5 round fight max. If there isn't, it's still not as long as when it was "new" because those farming have figured out what works, what doesn't.

I have the Darkmoor amulet for my life, but gave up on Death and Fire. They each kiosk teamed up and farmed Morganthe for a morning and both got their amulets and one (don't remember which) got a ring.

Farming Upper Halls for the amulet is way too little ROI, even with a perfect, well-coordinated team. Spirit of Darkmoor's cheats make team up a disaster - and even the best-coordinated teams can pull an unlucky hand. She's awful if you let her get past the first cheat cycle.

Survivor
May 01, 2010
44
Unfortunately, what the OP said is partly true, seeing that people are more willing to take certain schools along with them than others. The order I've personally observed (most to least wanted) is; Life (preferably jade as always), Storm (must have over 5 hundred critical?), Balance (all the poor wizard does is blade and maybe tank), Ice (tank. op pet. tank. period.), Death (once again preferably jade, counted on to have a life mastery and a master's degree in spamming whenever ordered to), Myth (their new Shadow spell and jack-of-all-trades abilities are actually excellent in this dungeon, which most people fail to see), and surprisingly enough, Fire. The DOT masters with massive trap stacking abilities are at the bottom of the pack?

I've noticed very few Fire in my Darkmoor farming "job" (as that what it feels like), which surprised me due to their popularity. As I continued on, however, I started to realize why. They just aren't built for a quick Shane battle. It takes time for them to stack all those traps. This saddens me, but it's true; I've found that people will almost always choose a Storm over Fire for hitting, because the fight with Shane just takes too much out of everyone. It's that hard.

Darkmoor is all about stereotypes, and it shouldn't be. I agree that the entire Graveyard should be separated or at least Shane be optional, because really, who wants to do Shane over and over again with most people leaving before the fight is even over for lousy drops...?

*crickets chirp*

It would open people's eyes to just how great all the school are, and not just pick and choose due to stereotypes. Fire would most likely make a huge comeback as well.

...Sorry that was very tl;dr...

Exalted

Survivor
Feb 09, 2012
27
I've been through Darkmoor on all of my exalted wizards now, one from each school. In my experience, storm is the first one people want along, and they expect storm to carry them through. Drives me crazy. Life is the second for healing... my ice has a higher outgoing than most life wizards (60%), but people ignore my ice completely when I'm up there looking for a team. In my opinion, Fire is the easiest wizard to take through and have on the team (imho) since none of the main opponents are fire and school traps are fine in every fight. In all three, you can build a full backdraft, put on another trap/blade, hit with FFA and boom, boss is gone. Death and Myth hold their own and a healing-tanking balance is, as always, an awesome teammate. It drives me crazy when I'm on my ice; I can never get a team of randoms even though my ice can tank like a beast and heal like a life wiz at the same time.

And for the sake of argument -- ANY mix of schools can go in there and get out in 60-90 minutes with a set strategy of cards in deck and order played. It's boring as heck but always works.

Survivor
Feb 08, 2012
22
Okay, so I have an Exalted (as well as a lvl 92 ), but don't list him in my siggy ever, since I don't use him often unless it's PVP or leveling up other characters.
Let me say one thing.
Darkmoor was awful.
The first part wasn't too bad; Chaney's cheat can be avoided with some Life dispels, and Sir Blackwater is just time-consuming, not annoying.
The second part took WAY too long. (Two bosses with multiple cheat cycles and a deadly Beguile cheat? No thanks.) Even when doing it with my Exalted Myth and my friends (Storm, Ice, Life, and occasionally a Death), Shane von Shane and Tatyana took one hour each. Akhtang Wormcrawl took 45 due to his obnoxious cheats.

Now, for the TRUE terror.

The Graveyard

Yevgeny by himself took an hour and a half with a Storm, Ice, Life, and Myth. His constant cheating and insane minions made him hard, but the easiest of the Graveyard Trio.
Shane von Shane. I don't need to explain this one. Without an Exalted Fire (none of us had one ;_;) to use Steal Charm (with Darkmoor's coming, the TC is impossibly rare), he was simply a pain to battle. At LEAST have him drop something good, like Mega Snacks or the Mali staff. He is easily the hardest of the Graveyard Trio.

Malistaire is made annoying because of his insane Shadow "wand attack" and the dragon, but the second easiest because he simply doesn't have good spells.

On-topic, however. When I kiosked when my friends were offline, everybody left when they saw I was a Myth and there was no Storm.
So, in the eyes of a lot of others, Myth is a completely useless school, which makes me mad since I soloed the entire game on a Myth, needing help only with Darkmoor and Xibalba.

-Mason NightGarden, Lvl 100
-Tyler Titanstaff, Lvl 92

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
PaigeGoldenspear on Jun 18, 2015 wrote:
The boots are worth it, possibly, but the amulet? I'd kiosk team up for Morganthe. Hers is, for all schools, nearly as good - or arguably better - and now that Darkmoor spells are out, if there's a storm, its a 5 round fight max. If there isn't, it's still not as long as when it was "new" because those farming have figured out what works, what doesn't.

I have the Darkmoor amulet for my life, but gave up on Death and Fire. They each kiosk teamed up and farmed Morganthe for a morning and both got their amulets and one (don't remember which) got a ring.

Farming Upper Halls for the amulet is way too little ROI, even with a perfect, well-coordinated team. Spirit of Darkmoor's cheats make team up a disaster - and even the best-coordinated teams can pull an unlucky hand. She's awful if you let her get past the first cheat cycle.
i've farmed morganthe for over a year on 2 wizards; completed about 1000 runs so far, only one amulet (fire, which i can't even use because my pyro is level 35). but that's still better than getting stuck on that gods-awful battle with spirit of darkmoor for hours on end.

my storm did get her ring and athame from morganthe, and my balance wizard got her ring (but the alpha & omega ring from gladiator is better~ that took a year as well).

i have completed darkmoor on 3 wizards, and knowing that i have to keep running them through is exhausting. so i am on an indefinite break from it, and i can't say i miss it at all. sometimes i get the crazy urge to do it... but then, i remember that it makes me polymorph into irritable, stressed-out, grumpy von (who, as i mentioned before, is not nice and helpful) , and that idea goes bye-bye right quick.

i have terrible luck with drops, and i wish that i could just refuse to feed the farming machine anymore. however, since the gear is required for survival in future worlds, my only other option is to find a new game. but, until that happens, i'm here for the long haul... perhaps the crafting business isn't so terrible.

-von "stuck between a huge rock and a really-hard place" shadowsong

Hero
Aug 18, 2011
737
Every school has a use if you are willing to use what you have. Players need to be flexible and not get stuck in a rut of doing 'the usual'. What I like about many of the new dungeons, and DM especially, is that it gives us a reason to use different tactics and a wider variety of spells.

ANY combination of schools can take down Yevgeny, Shane, Wormcrawler, or Spirit of Darkmoor in 10-20 minutes per fight, but you can't do it without thinking and working together.

Got a boss that disarms you when you blade? Don't blade, trap. Let your teammates blade you.

Got a boss that gives himself blades when you blade? Use traps and aura until the attack round, or wait until he uses his pips.

Got a boss that spams shields? One myth wizard can take care of that, or someone with a couple TC if you don't have a (very useful) myth wizard on your team.

Got a boss that re-spawns minions? Trap stack the boss and take everything out with one hit, or kill the boss first, then clean up the minions.

It's actually easier and a lot more interesting to look for solutions to challenges than it is to complain about them. KI doesn't ever give us hurdles without also giving us the tools to clear them. It's up to us to find and use those tools.

Explorer
Dec 09, 2011
65
Prince of Shadows on Jun 21, 2015 wrote:
Every school has a use if you are willing to use what you have. Players need to be flexible and not get stuck in a rut of doing 'the usual'. What I like about many of the new dungeons, and DM especially, is that it gives us a reason to use different tactics and a wider variety of spells.

ANY combination of schools can take down Yevgeny, Shane, Wormcrawler, or Spirit of Darkmoor in 10-20 minutes per fight, but you can't do it without thinking and working together.

Got a boss that disarms you when you blade? Don't blade, trap. Let your teammates blade you.

Got a boss that gives himself blades when you blade? Use traps and aura until the attack round, or wait until he uses his pips.

Got a boss that spams shields? One myth wizard can take care of that, or someone with a couple TC if you don't have a (very useful) myth wizard on your team.

Got a boss that re-spawns minions? Trap stack the boss and take everything out with one hit, or kill the boss first, then clean up the minions.

It's actually easier and a lot more interesting to look for solutions to challenges than it is to complain about them. KI doesn't ever give us hurdles without also giving us the tools to clear them. It's up to us to find and use those tools.
Wow I never really thought of it like that.

Not only was it good but very encouraging.