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The Shadow Rework from a PVE Player's Perspective

AuthorMessage
Defender
Jan 30, 2014
179
I understand that shadow magic within the game has always been controversial with balance between classes and their mechanics being unfair.

However, looking at the Twitter thread the options for the new shadow hit nerf are going to become a problem for PVE only players. With the vote also being so close and almost 50/50, one PVP group will get what they want while the other will still say it's broken, and the PVE players will either not care or have extreme troubles.

So here's my thoughts from a PVE player perspective:

Shadow magic was introduced in Khrysalis. It was "dangerous" and could only be used with consequence leading to the backlash mechanic. Shrike and Sentinel became very useful for the game, while also being balanced out with the risk of potentially losing over 2000 health if you don't tread carefully.

Then came Darkmoor, with the new spells. The question is why these spells were so powerful, and required a shadow pip, yet had no consequence. If these were enchanted with this dark, forbidden magic, why could we use it so carelessly? And that's where the problem began.

With no consequence, these spells were easily used and with them being so powerful, they could make or break a battle. If you relied on it, and you never got a pip you would die. Or, you would easily kill. X was saying that something was overpowered while Y was saying it needed a buff. But in truth, I would argue these spells don't need a damage nerf or buff.

It goes back to the roots of what shadow magic is. Dangerous. Something so powerful needs a consequence, which is why this shadow nerf isn't reasonable to me. It is helping the PVP community, but it doesn't stay true to what shadow magic is.

So why exactly is it a problem for PVE? Can't we just buff up more?

With damage nerfs I agree with the concerns for Myth and Death. They have nothing else to rely on that can hit well unless they get a specific pet or treasure card. With Death being a good solo school, and I would argue Myth in the same way, they lose that ability and it becomes a problem. Myth and Death aren't always the 'hitter' in the group, but taking away their most viable option can stop them from even having a chance. With Myth already being at such a disadvantage as well because of the broken minion gimmick, it's a lose lose.

The current given shadow rework isn't ideal for a normal player. Waiting an average of five turns to kill a mob you could kill in two, or having less damage is something that can either not affect a person or make it harder to play, and really just not make a shadow hit different from any other hit.

So what do I think is a better option for a rework?

Well, in truth I don't think there's ever going to be complete balance with shadow hits. But a step could be putting these changes ONLY IN PVP. That way the PVP community can still have a fair change that is much needed, and it won't affect the PVE players who have no complaints about the spell's current state. It won't cause an entire third arc rework for bosses and mobs so that it isn't increasingly difficult.

Another option can be adding the backlash to these spells, and not change them at all. Backlash was the root of shadow in the first place. If you use a shadow hit, after you could get a backlash bubble of some sort and like Shrike or Sentinel, you have to use buffs or heals or shields to reduce the backlash. The idea of shadow magic was forbidden and dangerous in the storyline, so why not make these spells dangerous to use? They hold great power, but also great consequence.

To conclude, I would just like to remind KI that anything you do for PVP, it affects us PVE players. I am in support of making PVP a better community and an enjoyable and fair game mode, but it needs to be remembered that it directly affects us, and we are a silent majority. I'm not saying that we shouldn't change anything because I want PVE to remain fair and fun, but I also don't think we should completely change something just for PVP purposes.

Anyone can feel free to add onto this thread, but please make sure to do so respectfully.

Survivor
Mar 24, 2009
43
Ahhh YES! As a mainly PVE player, I support this 10000%. I do PVP occasionally, and I agree - the shadow spells need a reworking. HOWEVER! Everyone seems to forget that this totally messes with PVE. Because the PVP community is so vocal, a lot of us PVE players do get overshadowed lots of the time, and I fear that any of these changes may wreck PVE in a very, very bad way. In the 30 levels since we got our first shadow hits, so many players have come to rely on them (myself included as a balance and death main - shoutout Nested Fury and Lulu). If those get nerfed, so many schools that have finally begun to feel almost balanced will be back at the bottom of the PVE barrel again. All so that a couple PVP players can have an easier time. It really sounds horrible, and I hope these potential changes can be made either PVP only (preferred) or even give us the backlash with the shadow-enhanced spells. As you said, shadow spells are dangerous, and giving the hits backlash definitely treats them as such.
130 130 104 75 72 56 10

Armiger
Feb 25, 2009
2411
ThisGirlIsOnFIRE00... on Jun 27, 2020 wrote:
I understand that shadow magic within the game has always been controversial with balance between classes and their mechanics being unfair.

However, looking at the Twitter thread the options for the new shadow hit nerf are going to become a problem for PVE only players. With the vote also being so close and almost 50/50, one PVP group will get what they want while the other will still say it's broken, and the PVE players will either not care or have extreme troubles.

So here's my thoughts from a PVE player perspective:

Shadow magic was introduced in Khrysalis. It was "dangerous" and could only be used with consequence leading to the backlash mechanic. Shrike and Sentinel became very useful for the game, while also being balanced out with the risk of potentially losing over 2000 health if you don't tread carefully.

Then came Darkmoor, with the new spells. The question is why these spells were so powerful, and required a shadow pip, yet had no consequence. If these were enchanted with this dark, forbidden magic, why could we use it so carelessly? And that's where the problem began.

With no consequence, these spells were easily used and with them being so powerful, they could make or break a battle. If you relied on it, and you never got a pip you would die. Or, you would easily kill. X was saying that something was overpowered while Y was saying it needed a buff. But in truth, I would argue these spells don't need a damage nerf or buff.

It goes back to the roots of what shadow magic is. Dangerous. Something so powerful needs a consequence, which is why this shadow nerf isn't reasonable to me. It is helping the PVP community, but it doesn't stay true to what shadow magic is.

So why exactly is it a problem for PVE? Can't we just buff up more?

With damage nerfs I agree with the concerns for Myth and Death. They have nothing else to rely on that can hit well unless they get a specific pet or treasure card. With Death being a good solo school, and I would argue Myth in the same way, they lose that ability and it becomes a problem. Myth and Death aren't always the 'hitter' in the group, but taking away their most viable option can stop them from even having a chance. With Myth already being at such a disadvantage as well because of the broken minion gimmick, it's a lose lose.

The current given shadow rework isn't ideal for a normal player. Waiting an average of five turns to kill a mob you could kill in two, or having less damage is something that can either not affect a person or make it harder to play, and really just not make a shadow hit different from any other hit.

So what do I think is a better option for a rework?

Well, in truth I don't think there's ever going to be complete balance with shadow hits. But a step could be putting these changes ONLY IN PVP. That way the PVP community can still have a fair change that is much needed, and it won't affect the PVE players who have no complaints about the spell's current state. It won't cause an entire third arc rework for bosses and mobs so that it isn't increasingly difficult.

Another option can be adding the backlash to these spells, and not change them at all. Backlash was the root of shadow in the first place. If you use a shadow hit, after you could get a backlash bubble of some sort and like Shrike or Sentinel, you have to use buffs or heals or shields to reduce the backlash. The idea of shadow magic was forbidden and dangerous in the storyline, so why not make these spells dangerous to use? They hold great power, but also great consequence.

To conclude, I would just like to remind KI that anything you do for PVP, it affects us PVE players. I am in support of making PVP a better community and an enjoyable and fair game mode, but it needs to be remembered that it directly affects us, and we are a silent majority. I'm not saying that we shouldn't change anything because I want PVE to remain fair and fun, but I also don't think we should completely change something just for PVP purposes.

Anyone can feel free to add onto this thread, but please make sure to do so respectfully.
I have to agree. It doesn't matter what those of us voice about what is being done to our spells in PvE. It always boils down to what PvP wants.

KI would have been on the right track if they had scrapped PvP when they knew there were problems with the spells in the Arena years ago and rebuilt it from scratch instead of nerfing every spell PvPers complained about.

If PvP had been set up with it's OWN set of specific spells as have been done in Beastmoon, there would be a lot less of an issue.

At this point, instead of nerfing Shadow enhanced spells for PvP, just make them NO PvP.

I agree with making PvP a better community but at some point, the nerfs being done to PvE for that purpose is going to have some serious side effects in PvE.

Hero
Sep 30, 2018
788
I don't think that's the issue. First of all I just want to clarify its pve that ruined pvp not the other way around. Pve players gets all the free spells, gears, and power without any sort of balancing. Gears have pushed stats beyond whats suppose to be the norm. I think what happen is players got way too comfortable with op stats, that now their crying because what? the spells are gonna lose 100-200 damage? lol cry me a river will ya. Every single out come of pve has indirectly affected pvp and I'm supporting any changes to shadow spells being fixed even if it means nerfing mobs in pve. That's one way of looking at a solution. Shadow enhance spells are technically school version, meaning its a form of mastering as a (journey man-shadow-mancer), hence why we should not take any back lash.

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
880
I actually really like this idea. It won't have as much of an effect on PvE since usually shadow spells one-shot the enemies and the backlash wouldn't come into play as much, but PvP players would either have to kill with their shadow spell or risk backlash.

Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1112
I think it's both PVE and PVP ruining one another. Spell setups for PVE interferes with PVP players who are more vocal about how unfair game play is everytime they get beat by a spell. Then they say I don't like it, it's unfair I want it nerf affecting PVE making it more unfair for PVE players. Nerfing spells and that's that isn't always the best solution. I think the better solution is rework PVP spell and gear status WITHOUT interfering with PVE play and vice versa. I say shadow does not need to be nerfed for PVE play. Infact why not add shadow shield spell to the game and can be learned by using a training point. That's all I'm going to say.

Mastermind
Feb 06, 2010
392
Most definitely the monsters and bosses will have to be adjusted too. But your right about the shadow enhanced spells not having any consequences. The problem right now is trying to fix 5 pip spells doing 10 pip damage.

It’s almost sickening that they have allowed such an overpowering spell (glowbugs) in the game all these years.

Glowbug is currently capable of:
  • Casting 9-10 pip damage for only 5 pips. -which it is currently possible to cast on the first or second round.
  • Is an AOE spell
  • Can cast a 3 pip spell as a side mechanic (enfeeble)

If I were auditing this spell, I would say “Um, this is a joke, right?”


Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1112
They are Shadow enhanced spells. Thay're suppose to be powerful equal to a high pip spell in the means to not only help players get through more challenging worlds, also to add new and different challences to keep the game fun, interesting and above all, moving forward not back.

Survivor
Dec 10, 2008
6
I haven't been more disgusted in a change in a long time. There's a reason less than 10% of the community focuses on PVP ,yet their word is being taken as spoken gospel for the game. PVE and PVP are two completely different realms and their metas are extremely different. Trying to equate the two just shows a lack of comprehension and honestly, a lack of intelligence as well. Never will PVP be equal to PVE and all the changes in the world you think are good will do nothing but drive your players away and kill the base of your game.

Explorer
Nov 23, 2008
79
I can't believe any of this. I've played since 2008, have worked my storm to max level and power of 175 damage, 100% crit, and 100% pip. Spent crowns for the gear and worked very hard to get where I am, and my team depends on me to one shot, and now you all want to mess this up over pvp players complaints! I say if its too hot in the kitchen get out!!! I didn't and have not spent thousands on a game for this. What is wrong with you developers? I don't even play pve because the nasty talk and toxic environment you all allow in the arena area! If your going to nerf my spells, then you need to nerf the pvp players gear!!! After all, the gear they earned and spent tickets on and payed crowns for tournaments cost just as much as what I've spent on this game. First you take double gardening away, now this?? Did you nerf the Catacomb bosses too?

Armiger
Feb 25, 2009
2411
Blaze03554 on Jul 1, 2020 wrote:
Most definitely the monsters and bosses will have to be adjusted too. But your right about the shadow enhanced spells not having any consequences. The problem right now is trying to fix 5 pip spells doing 10 pip damage.

It’s almost sickening that they have allowed such an overpowering spell (glowbugs) in the game all these years.

Glowbug is currently capable of:
  • Casting 9-10 pip damage for only 5 pips. -which it is currently possible to cast on the first or second round.
  • Is an AOE spell
  • Can cast a 3 pip spell as a side mechanic (enfeeble)

If I were auditing this spell, I would say “Um, this is a joke, right?”

5 pips + a shadow pip that is supposed to amount to approximately another 5 pips or close, that in some cases we have to wait so long for that it is more practical to use one of our NORMAL spells. So pip wise, they were good. Now, they are useless for the most part because their damage is more comparable to a 4 pip normal spell.

If the spells go live as they are currently in Test, PvE will suffer across the board with useless spells. In fact even if we do get that elusive Shadow pip, we are more likely to use our normal 7-8 pip spells.

None of my younger wizards are going to struggle through DM or any other quest for shadow spells at this point. I dual boxed main life and main fire through the first to floors of DM thinking I would finish it for Fire to get FFA, not going to happen. Oh and yes, it took me 5 hours to dual box those 2 levels. I don't ask others to help without at least trying on my own, but with the nerf, it isn't worth the attempt. If they leave it alone in PvE, then I will go for it.

Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1112
DragonLady1818 on Jun 29, 2020 wrote:
I have to agree. It doesn't matter what those of us voice about what is being done to our spells in PvE. It always boils down to what PvP wants.

KI would have been on the right track if they had scrapped PvP when they knew there were problems with the spells in the Arena years ago and rebuilt it from scratch instead of nerfing every spell PvPers complained about.

If PvP had been set up with it's OWN set of specific spells as have been done in Beastmoon, there would be a lot less of an issue.

At this point, instead of nerfing Shadow enhanced spells for PvP, just make them NO PvP.

I agree with making PvP a better community but at some point, the nerfs being done to PvE for that purpose is going to have some serious side effects in PvE.
I like your ideal suggestion about making Shadow enhanced spells to NO-pvp if Kingsilse doesn't want to fork PVP from PVE. What developers did to Bad Juju is proof that thay can fork the spells. We all know PVP and PVE are quite different on game play. I also agree if PVP was look at much earlier, further problems might have been avoided and Monster Mash plus others along with untouched spells would still be in the game.

Survivor
Mar 20, 2020
13
Blaze03554 on Jul 1, 2020 wrote:
Most definitely the monsters and bosses will have to be adjusted too. But your right about the shadow enhanced spells not having any consequences. The problem right now is trying to fix 5 pip spells doing 10 pip damage.

It’s almost sickening that they have allowed such an overpowering spell (glowbugs) in the game all these years.

Glowbug is currently capable of:
  • Casting 9-10 pip damage for only 5 pips. -which it is currently possible to cast on the first or second round.
  • Is an AOE spell
  • Can cast a 3 pip spell as a side mechanic (enfeeble)

If I were auditing this spell, I would say “Um, this is a joke, right?”

Yea then my solution to that problem would be to raise the pip cost not lower the damage by 400! The game is already hard enough and lowering the damage on spells would make it harder. I also heard somewhere that one shadow pip is roughly equivalent to 5 pips so maybe waiting on a shadow compensates for the low pip cost? Either way they should just ban or nerf these spells in pvp not pve. This is a spell you get at lvl 100 not at lower levels so why do they think it makes sense to make a level 100 spell akin to the power of storm lord? That is not what I call balancing! If they want to balance it they should raise the pip cost!

Astrologist
Feb 28, 2014
1112
KingJaky on Jul 1, 2020 wrote:
I haven't been more disgusted in a change in a long time. There's a reason less than 10% of the community focuses on PVP ,yet their word is being taken as spoken gospel for the game. PVE and PVP are two completely different realms and their metas are extremely different. Trying to equate the two just shows a lack of comprehension and honestly, a lack of intelligence as well. Never will PVP be equal to PVE and all the changes in the world you think are good will do nothing but drive your players away and kill the base of your game.
I agree !OO%

Delver
Jun 14, 2010
213
I agree with this as a solution to balancing the Shadow Enhanced Spells. Giving them some form of backlash, a risk versus reward methodology to using them, would be a better way to balance them rather than constant buffing and nerfing of the spells themselves.

Armiger
Feb 25, 2009
2411
Esperanto42 on Jul 2, 2020 wrote:
Yea then my solution to that problem would be to raise the pip cost not lower the damage by 400! The game is already hard enough and lowering the damage on spells would make it harder. I also heard somewhere that one shadow pip is roughly equivalent to 5 pips so maybe waiting on a shadow compensates for the low pip cost? Either way they should just ban or nerf these spells in pvp not pve. This is a spell you get at lvl 100 not at lower levels so why do they think it makes sense to make a level 100 spell akin to the power of storm lord? That is not what I call balancing! If they want to balance it they should raise the pip cost!
I was also under the impression that Shadow Pips were worth approximately 4-5 normal pips.....It seems that a community leader posted in one of the topics in Test that no, they are only worth 3. Funny how things can be adjusted to suit the narrative.

Defender
Jun 04, 2014
157
Just adding my thoughts.

Went on test realm and I think I see at least some reason for the shadow pip rework. It seems that most of your gear now adds shadow pips. So for example, my LIFE character who is level 130 now has gear that adds significant amounts of shadow pips, and my base shadow pip score is 65. So right now, with my gear, my shadow pip percent is 103 ! They are basically now adding shadow pips just as they add regular and gold pips to your character.

If I understand this correctly, it means that every round now, I will now get a shadow pip up to my maximum current allowance of 2. So I have the chance to use a shadow attack every single round (assuming I also have sufficient gold or white pips as well). With this as a perspective, it might make sense now why KingsIsle is drastically lowering the damage on some of the shadow spells, and why KingsIsle is nerfing some of the effects of the shadow spells (i.e. only allowing glowbugs to remove one blade). Thus it seems shadow spells will just be another regular spell in own spell list.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. If the mechanism is going to work as I outlined above, then OK, maybe the shadow spell nerfing is not too bad, because I will be able to use shadow spells much more frequently than before. No more 6 or 7 round waits (in some of my worst ever cases of waiting for a shadow pip in a battle) for a shadow pip to appear. Now I get one immediately, and basically will pretty much always have a max of 2 shadow pips available to me. Why I might even have the luxury of using a lot more of those shadow spells that require 2 shadow pips.

So balancing this out against the nerfs, it may not be all that bad. It seems KingsIsle is trading some damage and effect nerfs against making shadow pips MUCH MUCH easier to come by during battles. Just my observations.

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
880
CUTEHORSEY on Jul 2, 2020 wrote:
Just adding my thoughts.

Went on test realm and I think I see at least some reason for the shadow pip rework. It seems that most of your gear now adds shadow pips. So for example, my LIFE character who is level 130 now has gear that adds significant amounts of shadow pips, and my base shadow pip score is 65. So right now, with my gear, my shadow pip percent is 103 ! They are basically now adding shadow pips just as they add regular and gold pips to your character.

If I understand this correctly, it means that every round now, I will now get a shadow pip up to my maximum current allowance of 2. So I have the chance to use a shadow attack every single round (assuming I also have sufficient gold or white pips as well). With this as a perspective, it might make sense now why KingsIsle is drastically lowering the damage on some of the shadow spells, and why KingsIsle is nerfing some of the effects of the shadow spells (i.e. only allowing glowbugs to remove one blade). Thus it seems shadow spells will just be another regular spell in own spell list.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. If the mechanism is going to work as I outlined above, then OK, maybe the shadow spell nerfing is not too bad, because I will be able to use shadow spells much more frequently than before. No more 6 or 7 round waits (in some of my worst ever cases of waiting for a shadow pip in a battle) for a shadow pip to appear. Now I get one immediately, and basically will pretty much always have a max of 2 shadow pips available to me. Why I might even have the luxury of using a lot more of those shadow spells that require 2 shadow pips.

So balancing this out against the nerfs, it may not be all that bad. It seems KingsIsle is trading some damage and effect nerfs against making shadow pips MUCH MUCH easier to come by during battles. Just my observations.
You're not getting a shadow pip every round. The 100ish number is your shadow pip rating, which determines how fast the shadow meter fills. I don't know the exact mechanics behind it other than more shadow rating = more shadow pips, but getting a shadow pip every round would be ridiculous.

Survivor
Jun 22, 2018
39
sorry but kingisle decided you are questing too fast and farming too fast so those spells needed a nerf because
some bosses in game were annoyed they were hit too hard . the changes were going to be pvp only but malistair complained and the triton trident too so the nerf has to be done to satisfy the games bosses

Defender
Nov 14, 2015
109
angellifeheart on Jun 29, 2020 wrote:
I don't think that's the issue. First of all I just want to clarify its pve that ruined pvp not the other way around. Pve players gets all the free spells, gears, and power without any sort of balancing. Gears have pushed stats beyond whats suppose to be the norm. I think what happen is players got way too comfortable with op stats, that now their crying because what? the spells are gonna lose 100-200 damage? lol cry me a river will ya. Every single out come of pve has indirectly affected pvp and I'm supporting any changes to shadow spells being fixed even if it means nerfing mobs in pve. That's one way of looking at a solution. Shadow enhance spells are technically school version, meaning its a form of mastering as a (journey man-shadow-mancer), hence why we should not take any back lash.
Myth spell reduced by 50% now rasulka is useless on storm, death not really worth while, might as well jsut spam deer. I've been playing since 08 adn pvp community has always gotten their way and ruined it for pve players. Also you have to remember the bosses/mobs we fight, unless they get somewhat nerfed this is going to make things way more difficult.

Explorer
May 06, 2013
54
KI please read: I will say this brief and sweet. I oppose these shadow spell changes and in favor to those who are against the change giving their reason why. I feel this change is a wrong move only because it's going to hurt the game in the long run by too many people ending thier membership Most people don't like to feel down sized in pve. KI we all know pvp IS NOT pve. You say you growth and continue the storyline? Then please separate the 2 before the game is ruined.