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Petition to Ban Wild Bolt from PVP

AuthorMessage
Defender
Mar 31, 2015
148
Absolutely, positively, no question. Either ban it altogether (from PVP), severely reduce the accuracy (to about 30% or so), or increase the pip cost to 3 or 4 (or more). The reasons should be obvious, but if they aren't:

Most Exalted Storms have 100%+ Damage from gear, and 99.9% have 90%+ Damage. So, let's take a look, shall we:

10, 100, or 1000 Damage, + Colossal (275) + Gear Boost (100%) = 570, 750, or 2550 Damage without critical, every turn.

Of course there is resist, but then there is pierce, and Storms routinely have 25%+ pierce without Infallible, which merely compounds the issue. I was sucker punched by a 'Bolt going second vs a Storm in the first round; it dealt 3894 Damage through my 56% storm resist. I won the game anyway because I pack TC shields, but I shouldn't have to do that just to stay afloat in PVP. I was admittedly unlucky that time, but it is laughably irritating when storms pack nothing but this one spell and insane bolt, and then call me a noob for packing mostly Volcanic and Glacial shields in my side deck.

Most storms are also crit happy so if you have block under 300 or don't have conviction, there is a good chance of getting wiped out with 1140, 1500, or 5100 damage - which is game over for everyone except , , and . This kind of damage is ridiculous, even for a Storm.

Compare that to Lightning Bats, which can do at most (285 + 275), * 2 = 1120, with critical 2240, which is still way too high for a spell you get from Wizard City, but at least it allows some breathing room to heal or whatever.

The argument that there is only a 'chance' of a taking a massive chunk of your health is ridiculous (like 1140 is not massive. LOL). If it takes a 1 in 3 chance of getting rid of your opponent, then let's calculate the probability of 'jackpot' if you spam it for five turns (because as of Darkmoor, Storms can not fizzle on their own):

Pretty sure the chance is set at 1/3 internally, so the chance of it not happening is 2/3.

The formula is (one minus) the probability of failure to the nth power, with n being the number of turns you're spamming the spell: 1 - ( (2/3)^5), which is 211 / 243 => 86.8% chance of getting 'jackpot' in five turns.

Spam it for ten turns in a row and it becomes close to 100%!58025 / 59049 => 98.2% chance in ten turns.

Overkill? I say so. I sincerely hope something is done about this; it's about time.

Adrian
Exalted , Master

Promethean Crafter
Rank 10 Gardener

Geographer
Dec 14, 2009
892
Exabytes on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
Absolutely, positively, no question. Either ban it altogether (from PVP), severely reduce the accuracy (to about 30% or so), or increase the pip cost to 3 or 4 (or more). The reasons should be obvious, but if they aren't:

Most Exalted Storms have 100%+ Damage from gear, and 99.9% have 90%+ Damage. So, let's take a look, shall we:

10, 100, or 1000 Damage, + Colossal (275) + Gear Boost (100%) = 570, 750, or 2550 Damage without critical, every turn.

Of course there is resist, but then there is pierce, and Storms routinely have 25%+ pierce without Infallible, which merely compounds the issue. I was sucker punched by a 'Bolt going second vs a Storm in the first round; it dealt 3894 Damage through my 56% storm resist. I won the game anyway because I pack TC shields, but I shouldn't have to do that just to stay afloat in PVP. I was admittedly unlucky that time, but it is laughably irritating when storms pack nothing but this one spell and insane bolt, and then call me a noob for packing mostly Volcanic and Glacial shields in my side deck.

Most storms are also crit happy so if you have block under 300 or don't have conviction, there is a good chance of getting wiped out with 1140, 1500, or 5100 damage - which is game over for everyone except , , and . This kind of damage is ridiculous, even for a Storm.

Compare that to Lightning Bats, which can do at most (285 + 275), * 2 = 1120, with critical 2240, which is still way too high for a spell you get from Wizard City, but at least it allows some breathing room to heal or whatever.

The argument that there is only a 'chance' of a taking a massive chunk of your health is ridiculous (like 1140 is not massive. LOL). If it takes a 1 in 3 chance of getting rid of your opponent, then let's calculate the probability of 'jackpot' if you spam it for five turns (because as of Darkmoor, Storms can not fizzle on their own):

Pretty sure the chance is set at 1/3 internally, so the chance of it not happening is 2/3.

The formula is (one minus) the probability of failure to the nth power, with n being the number of turns you're spamming the spell: 1 - ( (2/3)^5), which is 211 / 243 => 86.8% chance of getting 'jackpot' in five turns.

Spam it for ten turns in a row and it becomes close to 100%!58025 / 59049 => 98.2% chance in ten turns.

Overkill? I say so. I sincerely hope something is done about this; it's about time.

Adrian
Exalted , Master

Promethean Crafter
Rank 10 Gardener
You bring up good points in all of your posts that I have read, and this is no exception. Wildbolt originally had low accuracy (thinking 30 percent?), with the 1000 damage, and was changed into its current incarnation. And while you bring up good points here, and in your other posts, there is a much bigger underlying problem, and that is KI refuses to separate pvp/pve issues. Some spells simply unbalance pvp, and at the same time, become useless for pve with a change for pvp in mind. So many have brought up, and debated this subject, and yet nothing has ever been done to address the real issue. All that we ever get is simple "Band-Aid" fixes that trade one problem/issue for another. Until KI addresses the root problem, these situations will never improve.

Explorer
Dec 09, 2011
65
From what I know Storm isn't the only school that has annoying spells.

has a heal comeback card.

has Juju.

has Lord of Winter.

has Medusa.

has Choke.

has Mana Burn.

And has Insane Bolt.

The point I'm trying to make is that every school has an unfair advantage.

I'm not a storm wizard but from what I've seen its a chance school.

Meaning that nothing is 100% (Just wouldn't be fair)

Also, you are only saying level 100 wizards have High damage and high accuracy you aren't adding the lower levels that aren't level 100

My best answer would be better (Or more helpful) Gear and/or Spells

Also, I don't understand how you got the number that's higher then its other counter parts. (For Wild Bolt)
Would it be O.K. if you did the math again and should it to me

Delver
Jul 15, 2011
288
The heal/revive card for life, ya I can see that as a problem. It should be limited in number to like 3 per deck for pvp.

Death's bad juju, I don't see anything wrong with this spell. Same effect as efreet. If you fight in a team, then it's easily manageable.

Lord of winter? Umm, what's the problem with this spell? It's a stun that costs 5 pips. The damage isn't impressive.

Medusa? Being stunned isn't fun, but really? There are plenty of ways to handle stuns already. So what is the problem?

Choke? It's a bit cheap on pips. Boost it to 3 or 4 pips and it'd be fine. Again, stuns are common and ways to deal with them are many.

Mana Burn? It costs 5 pips to use, doesn't steal pips just destroys 3 of them and the damage isn't too bad so long as you don't hoard your pips. I don't see a problem with this spell either.

Wild bolt, well it's potentially too powerful for so few pips. I'd say raise it to 3 or 4 pips and it'd be fine. Then it'd not be nearly so economical to spam.

I noticed that you don't like stuns very much, sorry. They may be inconvenient, but they are pretty easy to deal with. Also, by the spells you listed, it looks like you really enjoy fast pvp matches, ones that last at most 3 turns. To me, those aren't fun at all and are a waste of time. Seeing who can cast the biggest spell first to defeat your opponent, that simply relies on who goes first and who has stacked damage and critical attributes.

Defender
Mar 31, 2015
148
Good point, Intrepidatius; you are not the first person that has talked about these so-called 'Band-Aid' fixes, that trade one problem for another. My guess is that there is a monetary incentive to do so; after all, why wouldn't you just 'fix' an existing problem with new Crowns gear, wands, seeds (dungeons, whatever).

It is true, KI should endeavor to develop spells and gear that is / are reasonably good for both PVP and PVE, and that do not drastically tilt the PVP throne towards any school.

(The school, Infallible (for Jades / Same School Monsters), and Satyr are good examples)

I am fine with a little farm feeding, as after all the game has bandwidth costs, advertising costs, etc., and has to provide for itself somehow and make a profit. (That's what membership is for, is it not?). But this time I would like an actual fix to Wild Bolt, the simplest and most comprehensive being a PVP ban (ensuring that there are no further problems from this spell).

There are a few other spells that should be modified or banned as well to even out the playing field, but Wild Bolt is by far the most egregious, and hence it is the first to be tackled.

Explorer
Dec 09, 2011
65
Tatiana Winterhear... on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
The heal/revive card for life, ya I can see that as a problem. It should be limited in number to like 3 per deck for pvp.

Death's bad juju, I don't see anything wrong with this spell. Same effect as efreet. If you fight in a team, then it's easily manageable.

Lord of winter? Umm, what's the problem with this spell? It's a stun that costs 5 pips. The damage isn't impressive.

Medusa? Being stunned isn't fun, but really? There are plenty of ways to handle stuns already. So what is the problem?

Choke? It's a bit cheap on pips. Boost it to 3 or 4 pips and it'd be fine. Again, stuns are common and ways to deal with them are many.

Mana Burn? It costs 5 pips to use, doesn't steal pips just destroys 3 of them and the damage isn't too bad so long as you don't hoard your pips. I don't see a problem with this spell either.

Wild bolt, well it's potentially too powerful for so few pips. I'd say raise it to 3 or 4 pips and it'd be fine. Then it'd not be nearly so economical to spam.

I noticed that you don't like stuns very much, sorry. They may be inconvenient, but they are pretty easy to deal with. Also, by the spells you listed, it looks like you really enjoy fast pvp matches, ones that last at most 3 turns. To me, those aren't fun at all and are a waste of time. Seeing who can cast the biggest spell first to defeat your opponent, that simply relies on who goes first and who has stacked damage and critical attributes.
Sorry I wasn't complaining about these spells I just wanted to show that every class has ups and downs

I also didn't know some of the other schools spells so I just said what came to mind (Sorry about that)

I'm not saying change spells to work for Player Vs Player what I was trying to go for is that maybe KI could get gear or other cards to work against them. (Conviction, Stun shields, better shields ect.)

Also when I typed Lord of Winter I was thinking of the rank 10 pip spell that does 950-1050 while also taking away 3 pips
(not stunning) I think you were thinking of Winter Moon.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

Also, you are right mana burn doesn't steal pips it destroys them.

Geographer
Apr 29, 2012
861
Exabytes on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
Absolutely, positively, no question. Either ban it altogether (from PVP), severely reduce the accuracy (to about 30% or so), or increase the pip cost to 3 or 4 (or more). The reasons should be obvious, but if they aren't:

Most Exalted Storms have 100%+ Damage from gear, and 99.9% have 90%+ Damage. So, let's take a look, shall we:

10, 100, or 1000 Damage, + Colossal (275) + Gear Boost (100%) = 570, 750, or 2550 Damage without critical, every turn.

Of course there is resist, but then there is pierce, and Storms routinely have 25%+ pierce without Infallible, which merely compounds the issue. I was sucker punched by a 'Bolt going second vs a Storm in the first round; it dealt 3894 Damage through my 56% storm resist. I won the game anyway because I pack TC shields, but I shouldn't have to do that just to stay afloat in PVP. I was admittedly unlucky that time, but it is laughably irritating when storms pack nothing but this one spell and insane bolt, and then call me a noob for packing mostly Volcanic and Glacial shields in my side deck.

Most storms are also crit happy so if you have block under 300 or don't have conviction, there is a good chance of getting wiped out with 1140, 1500, or 5100 damage - which is game over for everyone except , , and . This kind of damage is ridiculous, even for a Storm.

Compare that to Lightning Bats, which can do at most (285 + 275), * 2 = 1120, with critical 2240, which is still way too high for a spell you get from Wizard City, but at least it allows some breathing room to heal or whatever.

The argument that there is only a 'chance' of a taking a massive chunk of your health is ridiculous (like 1140 is not massive. LOL). If it takes a 1 in 3 chance of getting rid of your opponent, then let's calculate the probability of 'jackpot' if you spam it for five turns (because as of Darkmoor, Storms can not fizzle on their own):

Pretty sure the chance is set at 1/3 internally, so the chance of it not happening is 2/3.

The formula is (one minus) the probability of failure to the nth power, with n being the number of turns you're spamming the spell: 1 - ( (2/3)^5), which is 211 / 243 => 86.8% chance of getting 'jackpot' in five turns.

Spam it for ten turns in a row and it becomes close to 100%!58025 / 59049 => 98.2% chance in ten turns.

Overkill? I say so. I sincerely hope something is done about this; it's about time.

Adrian
Exalted , Master

Promethean Crafter
Rank 10 Gardener
Okay, so the complexity in the last part of this strikes me as irrelevant. If the chance is 1/3 as you suggest, then they should really be dealing the 1,000 damage 1 time for every 3 turns. That's how basic probability works; without the formulae. Even if the chance was something like 50%/35%/15%, then the chance of the 1,000 damage would be15/100, or 3/20. About 1.5 times for every 10 turns. I must admit I zoned out for most of the end of your post, but KI can't lower the chance for PvPers, because it would become unfair for PvE. So why not choose one of 3 options:

1) Ban Wild Bolt in PvP. This is quite a dull option that, while not requiring as much work as the others, would cause outrage among diviners. The only real way to make this fair is to ban another spell from every school.

2) Replace it with another spell. I like this idea because it means KI can play around with an idea they've had for a spell that wouldn't fit with the worlds. But this would effect PvE, so it's probably not the best idea.

3) Change the percentages in PvP. As a level 53 farming Loremaster most of the time, I have useless TCs lying around, and I've used Wild Bolt about 10 times and only once have I even hit the 100 damage, and I haven't hit 1,000 with it. I think the chance could be changed to something along the lines of 65/25/10, or maybe 65/30/5 if necessary.

But I agree, Wild Bolt needs to be addressed in PvP, but impact PvE as little as possible.

Explorer
Nov 02, 2011
94
To be honest I kinda like wild bolt. I am not a storm wizard but I think that wild bolt is a fun gamble of chance. It can be powerful but so what? Every school has powerful spells and I don't think that any of them need to be banned.

Defender
Mar 31, 2015
148
If you are a low-level player (< 60), please understand that my post concerning Wild Bolt talks about its problems arising by Promethean and Exalted.

Not to sound superior, but if you have never played PVP at such a high level, you probably would not see this spell as much of a problem, as Storms would not yet have the kind of crazy damage and pierce that they get towards the end of the second arc.

Really, a more accurate assessment of the problem at hand is that Storms in general (by Exalted) need fixing, but there's really no point in trying to get that across. (They're supposed to be powerful, etc, etc.).

As per your post, Blaze, I would have to agree that 'just' reducing the accuracy to 30% would make this spell almost unusable for PVE.

And a full-on ban is, as you point out, a rather dull option, which I only mentioned because it after all is the simplest and fastest (if not the most pleasing option), that would fix this spell immediately.

I could, I suppose, have adjusted my probability formula to say 'one in three', so that nobody would have to think too hard. However my intention was to calculate the actual probability of a max hit over a definite number of turns, not to generalize with 1/3, 2/6, and so on. (Sorry if it was boring you, it's really not that hard).

(In retrospect, I think a quarter is a more accurate guesstimate).

But there is another option that you have failed to state; that I have already suggested:

Increase the Pip cost to 3 (or more). Leave the accuracy the same, increase the jackpot chance (to make it easier for the players still questing), no problem.

Or, reduce the accuracy to ~30% again, (it will be over 60% eventually with gear) and really increase the jackpot chance (while making sure that accuracy for Storm overall tops at ~30% for the foreseeable future), also no problem.

But Wild Bolt in its current incarnation needs a change. If anyone still disagrees, get to Exalted, and play a Storm. I guarantee you will change your mind.

Defender
Dec 20, 2012
103
Wild Bolt is a really big chance of getting good, or awful. It has served well for me many times, but also choked on me as well. Storm has such low health, that in PVP sometimes that's all they can really do to save themselves. I get what you mean though, I don't really support it, but maybe it could work out. Maybe try shielding a ton if you run into someone like that?

Cheyenne StormHunter
Promethean Diviner
Lvl 92

Explorer
Feb 26, 2009
58
Exabytes on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
Absolutely, positively, no question. Either ban it altogether (from PVP), severely reduce the accuracy (to about 30% or so), or increase the pip cost to 3 or 4 (or more). The reasons should be obvious, but if they aren't:

Most Exalted Storms have 100%+ Damage from gear, and 99.9% have 90%+ Damage. So, let's take a look, shall we:

10, 100, or 1000 Damage, + Colossal (275) + Gear Boost (100%) = 570, 750, or 2550 Damage without critical, every turn.

Of course there is resist, but then there is pierce, and Storms routinely have 25%+ pierce without Infallible, which merely compounds the issue. I was sucker punched by a 'Bolt going second vs a Storm in the first round; it dealt 3894 Damage through my 56% storm resist. I won the game anyway because I pack TC shields, but I shouldn't have to do that just to stay afloat in PVP. I was admittedly unlucky that time, but it is laughably irritating when storms pack nothing but this one spell and insane bolt, and then call me a noob for packing mostly Volcanic and Glacial shields in my side deck.

Most storms are also crit happy so if you have block under 300 or don't have conviction, there is a good chance of getting wiped out with 1140, 1500, or 5100 damage - which is game over for everyone except , , and . This kind of damage is ridiculous, even for a Storm.

Compare that to Lightning Bats, which can do at most (285 + 275), * 2 = 1120, with critical 2240, which is still way too high for a spell you get from Wizard City, but at least it allows some breathing room to heal or whatever.

The argument that there is only a 'chance' of a taking a massive chunk of your health is ridiculous (like 1140 is not massive. LOL). If it takes a 1 in 3 chance of getting rid of your opponent, then let's calculate the probability of 'jackpot' if you spam it for five turns (because as of Darkmoor, Storms can not fizzle on their own):

Pretty sure the chance is set at 1/3 internally, so the chance of it not happening is 2/3.

The formula is (one minus) the probability of failure to the nth power, with n being the number of turns you're spamming the spell: 1 - ( (2/3)^5), which is 211 / 243 => 86.8% chance of getting 'jackpot' in five turns.

Spam it for ten turns in a row and it becomes close to 100%!58025 / 59049 => 98.2% chance in ten turns.

Overkill? I say so. I sincerely hope something is done about this; it's about time.

Adrian
Exalted , Master

Promethean Crafter
Rank 10 Gardener
Your complaining 2000 damage every turn? How about they get 3 power pips and a shadow pip on the first turn use glowbug with a crit boom auto 10k if you wanna ban wild bolt why not ban storm? its the whole point tons of damage for low health personally i dont pvp i think it ruins the game but still

Defender
Dec 20, 2012
103
Spyroinfite on Aug 21, 2015 wrote:
Your complaining 2000 damage every turn? How about they get 3 power pips and a shadow pip on the first turn use glowbug with a crit boom auto 10k if you wanna ban wild bolt why not ban storm? its the whole point tons of damage for low health personally i dont pvp i think it ruins the game but still
Ban storm? What are you talking about? These people could have chosen storm in the first place, and they just use everything to their advantage. Seriously...

Cheyenne StormHunter
Promethean Diviner
Level 94

Hero
Sep 07, 2011
761
Bolt isn't a major issue, and storm is bottom tier in PvP atm. Yes, they have a chance to hit quickly and hard, but only a chance, and that's the only advantage they have since they can't win a war of attrition. There are many ways to block or weaken Storm attacks in a longer fight.

Some people want to play a certain style, never adjust or adapt, call anything that interferes with that style 'broken' and demand the game be changed to suit their personal preferences. One needs to accept that every school has strengths, weaknesses, and annoyances. Accept that your opponent will get lucky sometimes. So will you.

Defender
Mar 31, 2015
148
Gemma Luna on Aug 21, 2015 wrote:
Bolt isn't a major issue, and storm is bottom tier in PvP atm. Yes, they have a chance to hit quickly and hard, but only a chance, and that's the only advantage they have since they can't win a war of attrition. There are many ways to block or weaken Storm attacks in a longer fight.

Some people want to play a certain style, never adjust or adapt, call anything that interferes with that style 'broken' and demand the game be changed to suit their personal preferences. One needs to accept that every school has strengths, weaknesses, and annoyances. Accept that your opponent will get lucky sometimes. So will you.
Um yeah...

Funny, it seems that every time I find a comment of yours on one of my posts (in this post, and others), you oppose my suggestion(s) in some form or another. It has gotten to the point where if I notice a reply from you on one of my topics, I can pretty much guess that it will not be a supportive one. While I understand that you have an opinion, perhaps you can consider that my posts bring up actual points.

And, if you had actually properly read the original post here, you will find that I DID adapt by bringing in TC shields to the mix, something that was never required until Bolt Spam became economical. (Regular Volcanic and Tower worked just fine).

Feel free to suggest a strategy that actually works, rather than blatantly naysaying yet again.

Weakness vs , wins. Stacked Weakness vs works, but is quite hard to actually implement in practice.
Loremaster vs , Loremaster wins (temporarily, until Storm uses Satyr or gets lucky with its own heal, at which point I start all over again). Loremaster works for everyone .
Mana Burn vs , usually wins; they almost never go over 5 pips.

Next version of my strategy involves training Dissipate with my mastery, which will make me weaker overall vs everyone except , but it may be worth it in terms of personal satisfaction as I get increasingly annoyed with Storm.

Or perhaps I will forgo Earthquake and go with Life mastery, and just heal it off as I shield until they run out of cards. (Like the Jades. Everyone loves them, right? There is a reason they exist).

Or I can out-damage them, right? * Laughter *

Explorer
Feb 23, 2012
72
LOL NO, as much as badly i hate getting wild bolt spam you just can't throw away another schools spell from pvp, how would you like if gaurdian spirit was ban from pvp

Defender
Dec 20, 2012
103
zachery NS on Aug 22, 2015 wrote:
LOL NO, as much as badly i hate getting wild bolt spam you just can't throw away another schools spell from pvp, how would you like if gaurdian spirit was ban from pvp
His point is very good, what if Kingsisle just banned Tower Shield because everyone suddenly thinks that Ice is too powerful because of it? Wild Bolt is just another arrow in Storm's arsenal. Just as Tower Shield is Ice's and Guardian Spirit is Life's.

Cheyenne StormHunter
Promethean Diviner
Level 95

Survivor
Sep 02, 2014
10
I'm a level 91 , and today i was testing A new pvp deck. I was unlucky because I got a ice with 90% resist to , but I was even more Unlucky to find a Wild Bolt Spammer. THEY ARE TOTAL MAPOTI'S. (If you know what a "MAPOTI" is you're awesome). I had to stack Glacial and Volacnic Shields. 'Cause he had 100 Damage and 402 Crit. I had no chance. He was also level 90. Wild bolt should have something done to it. Maybe make it 3 pips? But something needs to be done.

Explorer
May 08, 2010
73
Might as well ban Tower shield because it's "too op"
WildBolt Is Based on luck also, I guarantee to you that you wrote this thread after losing to a Wild Bolt Spammer once and he got lucky, Wildbolt is fine the way it's and you just need to find a way around it (Storm Dispel, anyone?)

Survivor
Jun 04, 2009
11
I honestly think bolt is fine. PvP is already about chance anyway with critical shadowpip chance etc

Explorer
Jul 21, 2015
70
Well...

Has Insane Bolt Too

Annoying Spells
Winter moon
Temp, Insane/Wild Bolt
Efreet, Choke
Mana Burn, SuperNova, Loremaster
Rebirth
Krhulu
Medusa, Celestial Calendar
Conviction
Collosal
Polymorph Ptera
All

Explorer
Jul 21, 2015
70
Tatiana Winterhear... on Aug 18, 2015 wrote:
The heal/revive card for life, ya I can see that as a problem. It should be limited in number to like 3 per deck for pvp.

Death's bad juju, I don't see anything wrong with this spell. Same effect as efreet. If you fight in a team, then it's easily manageable.

Lord of winter? Umm, what's the problem with this spell? It's a stun that costs 5 pips. The damage isn't impressive.

Medusa? Being stunned isn't fun, but really? There are plenty of ways to handle stuns already. So what is the problem?

Choke? It's a bit cheap on pips. Boost it to 3 or 4 pips and it'd be fine. Again, stuns are common and ways to deal with them are many.

Mana Burn? It costs 5 pips to use, doesn't steal pips just destroys 3 of them and the damage isn't too bad so long as you don't hoard your pips. I don't see a problem with this spell either.

Wild bolt, well it's potentially too powerful for so few pips. I'd say raise it to 3 or 4 pips and it'd be fine. Then it'd not be nearly so economical to spam.

I noticed that you don't like stuns very much, sorry. They may be inconvenient, but they are pretty easy to deal with. Also, by the spells you listed, it looks like you really enjoy fast pvp matches, ones that last at most 3 turns. To me, those aren't fun at all and are a waste of time. Seeing who can cast the biggest spell first to defeat your opponent, that simply relies on who goes first and who has stacked damage and critical attributes.
Lord Of Winter Is 10 Pips Winter Moon Is 5 Pips