There is kind of already a penalty for people that team up and leave before starting. They have to wait like five minutes before starting team up again when they exit. Which is part of the new update I believe.
I do not believe that wizards should be punished some people just do not realize that when they are a friend of a high level wizard and they port to them and realize that they have no chance of survival in the fight that their friend is in and they flee. I will try to keep my lower level friends in the fight if possible. No penalty should be enforced with no way of knowing why the person fled. 82 40 27 19
You seem not to see what people are talking about. if they have to leave yea everything happens irl. And with that being said the punishment won't affect them. But if they come in and just leave for no reason or because they want someone to help them farm then they will be punished with which I totally agree. You better think twice before stepping on that sigil to go into dungeon. If you can not do that then you just better off leave. The problem with random people joining in can be easily solved. Go to a Perfect realm and last Area in it. Trust me there is no one or rarely someone. :). But punishment for leaving should be implemented.
Nicholas Star
Hey, since you've got signifcant experience in scripts, I wondered if I could ask you: How hard would it be to create a script that issued a "cooldown penalty" if you cleared out your dungeon recall while your teammates were still inside a dungeon? And are there additional scripts that can distinguish between a disconnection/timeout and a hard logout?
I think that's the first important step in addressing true abandonment, making sure people who strategically flee are protected. The second big challenge will be protecting the secret/mid-boss farmers, but I'm wondering if editing the Team-Up function so that it accounts for your team's dungeon goal is a better way to address that group.
Hey, since you've got signifcant experience in scripts, I wondered if I could ask you: How hard would it be to create a script that issued a "cooldown penalty" if you cleared out your dungeon recall while your teammates were still inside a dungeon? And are there additional scripts that can distinguish between a disconnection/timeout and a hard logout?
I think that's the first important step in addressing true abandonment, making sure people who strategically flee are protected. The second big challenge will be protecting the secret/mid-boss farmers, but I'm wondering if editing the Team-Up function so that it accounts for your team's dungeon goal is a better way to address that group.
Hmm... Well The challenge in making a script is the universal language. What I mean by that is: If for example wizard101 uses lets say Phytom Scripting Language then all the scripts must to be in such language. On top of that there a programing that limit specific actions or things to be used by such engine. I never tried to do it and I need to be on my computer to write and test the code in the languages I know. However. With all that being said the engine in lua would work like this: First off Engine would be in loop scan. The lock down mouse which is MouseButton1Down (Left Mouse Button) on click. if "Flee" is pressed a game engine scans through and starts a clock. (Lets say for 10 minutes) However: The gaming engines read time in seconds. so it's going to be 600 seconds. Then we set up a Server Script that would scan if a person tries to enter that dungeon again. If that person presses "X" button then game scans through in let's say "wait: 0.1" (The time it takes to scan) If a person Cool Down is >0 then it won't allow that person to enter. But then you have to make more of the code to specify all the dungeons then set a timer for a specific dungeon. And if that is set then it would search for a specific dungeon then scan through timer then activate true or false. (I explained this in English so you can understand) Obviously it's not going to look like this in code it self. Now about how hard it is. As I said above it all depends on the engine that the game uses. But I think that for a specialist in the language in which wizard101 performs I guess that it won't be that hard. However it may dramatically effect the game and not always in a good way. Since it will lead to more and more things such as if someone wants to port and he is cool down. Well will he able to port or not? lets say no. Well then the entire string of code must be applied there. And then what if the following dungeon is not portable then the fact it isn't portable means that the following will happen. Reason 1 will interfere with Reason 2. Well that may cause game lag or even crash (which I doubt the game will crash but anything can happen) So there are all those little things that must be taken to consideration. And now. I have no Idea how you can make a legit reason scan from engine as to say "why a person fled" if you can tell me the reasons then I can think of something. Or any thoughts on how it can work from in the game not in a coding perspective. Like how would you let the game know for what reason the person has fled.
There is already a cool down timer when you quit from a team-up. If you make it longer fewer people will use team-up. There is no justification to make people stay if they can't or don't want to. It's a game, not work, school, or prison. It would be a big mistake for KI to do something like this.
If you are having problems getting people to stay in dungeons, ask them why, or ask yourself why they are going. They have every right to. You can ask them nicely to stay and help you, but you can't make them, and KI shouldn't try to.
It is not against the rules to flee. It shouldn't have any penalty.
Hmm... Well The challenge in making a script is the universal language. What I mean by that is: If for example wizard101 uses lets say Phytom Scripting Language then all the scripts must to be in such language. On top of that there a programing that limit specific actions or things to be used by such engine. I never tried to do it and I need to be on my computer to write and test the code in the languages I know. However. With all that being said the engine in lua would work like this: First off Engine would be in loop scan. The lock down mouse which is MouseButton1Down (Left Mouse Button) on click. if "Flee" is pressed a game engine scans through and starts a clock. (Lets say for 10 minutes) However: The gaming engines read time in seconds. so it's going to be 600 seconds. Then we set up a Server Script that would scan if a person tries to enter that dungeon again. If that person presses "X" button then game scans through in let's say "wait: 0.1" (The time it takes to scan) If a person Cool Down is >0 then it won't allow that person to enter. But then you have to make more of the code to specify all the dungeons then set a timer for a specific dungeon. And if that is set then it would search for a specific dungeon then scan through timer then activate true or false. (I explained this in English so you can understand) Obviously it's not going to look like this in code it self. Now about how hard it is. As I said above it all depends on the engine that the game uses. But I think that for a specialist in the language in which wizard101 performs I guess that it won't be that hard. However it may dramatically effect the game and not always in a good way. Since it will lead to more and more things such as if someone wants to port and he is cool down. Well will he able to port or not? lets say no. Well then the entire string of code must be applied there. And then what if the following dungeon is not portable then the fact it isn't portable means that the following will happen. Reason 1 will interfere with Reason 2. Well that may cause game lag or even crash (which I doubt the game will crash but anything can happen) So there are all those little things that must be taken to consideration. And now. I have no Idea how you can make a legit reason scan from engine as to say "why a person fled" if you can tell me the reasons then I can think of something. Or any thoughts on how it can work from in the game not in a coding perspective. Like how would you let the game know for what reason the person has fled.
Nicholas Star
Glad I asked, that was really informative.
It looks to me like Team-Up needs to undergo revision hand-in-hand with any penalty system, since these two are going to be deeply interlinked. I think if there is a penalty system, the best thing it can do right now is to observe 2 major events
a player abandons the team by fleeing or by logging out,
that player clears out dungeon recalls (redundant if logout)
If all those conditions are met, then you can put them in a "punish" bin. I see no reason why a Team-Up cooldown shouldn't register an extended penalty of 15-60 mins in this scenario. Repeat offenders could even get full sigil lock, regardless of Team-Up.
I've got a poll on the Wiz101Central feedback forum outlining the reasons that people flee. So far, that list of reasons is holding up very well. Generally speaking, people quit for 4 reasons:
they believe they deserve a better team than they believe they have,
they rage quit,
they planned badly, and
non-game reasons for quitting
People who rage quit, plan badly, or have to go in real life aren't usually coming back right away, so they systematically differ from the first group, which is why I focus on dungeon recalls. The first group (the problem group) seems to be people who join dungeons (usually via Team Up) and later come to believe they deserve a better, easier path than the rest of the team, and they abandon in attempt to reach their goals faster. When the invested hours of multiple people on a team are at stake, this is not acceptable behavior. It also bears noting that experienced players who communicate their needs in advance of joining a sigil rarely abandon their teams because they think they deserve better, so it could very well be that the Team-Up group is causing the issue.
Some other bits and pieces I'm thinking about... Players doing mid-boss farming should get a "Confirm" menu for if they're going to keep going or not. Beating the mid-bosses would trigger the menu. Also, I'm thinking extended Team-Up penalties shouldn't affect port-in dungeons, since they tend to entail fewer hours of commitment and resources.
There is already a cool down timer when you quit from a team-up. If you make it longer fewer people will use team-up. There is no justification to make people stay if they can't or don't want to. It's a game, not work, school, or prison. It would be a big mistake for KI to do something like this.
If you are having problems getting people to stay in dungeons, ask them why, or ask yourself why they are going. They have every right to. You can ask them nicely to stay and help you, but you can't make them, and KI shouldn't try to.
It is not against the rules to flee. It shouldn't have any penalty.
You must understand that no one removes the right to flee. All that there should be added is that if a person flees there is a little cool down he has to go trough to enter that dungeon again. I would say not above 10 minutes so that it won't be that big but still gives a thought to a person that flees.
You must understand that no one removes the right to flee. All that there should be added is that if a person flees there is a little cool down he has to go trough to enter that dungeon again. I would say not above 10 minutes so that it won't be that big but still gives a thought to a person that flees.
I understand. There is a 5 minute timer now which is fine. I disagree with making it longer, or applying it to anything other than Team-Up.
It looks to me like Team-Up needs to undergo revision hand-in-hand with any penalty system, since these two are going to be deeply interlinked. I think if there is a penalty system, the best thing it can do right now is to observe 2 major events
a player abandons the team by fleeing or by logging out,
that player clears out dungeon recalls (redundant if logout)
If all those conditions are met, then you can put them in a "punish" bin. I see no reason why a Team-Up cooldown shouldn't register an extended penalty of 15-60 mins in this scenario. Repeat offenders could even get full sigil lock, regardless of Team-Up.
I've got a poll on the Wiz101Central feedback forum outlining the reasons that people flee. So far, that list of reasons is holding up very well. Generally speaking, people quit for 4 reasons:
they believe they deserve a better team than they believe they have,
they rage quit,
they planned badly, and
non-game reasons for quitting
People who rage quit, plan badly, or have to go in real life aren't usually coming back right away, so they systematically differ from the first group, which is why I focus on dungeon recalls. The first group (the problem group) seems to be people who join dungeons (usually via Team Up) and later come to believe they deserve a better, easier path than the rest of the team, and they abandon in attempt to reach their goals faster. When the invested hours of multiple people on a team are at stake, this is not acceptable behavior. It also bears noting that experienced players who communicate their needs in advance of joining a sigil rarely abandon their teams because they think they deserve better, so it could very well be that the Team-Up group is causing the issue.
Some other bits and pieces I'm thinking about... Players doing mid-boss farming should get a "Confirm" menu for if they're going to keep going or not. Beating the mid-bosses would trigger the menu. Also, I'm thinking extended Team-Up penalties shouldn't affect port-in dungeons, since they tend to entail fewer hours of commitment and resources.
Hmm. Then the best solutions to this problem would look like this:
Once a player flees the rest of the team will receive a vote choice if they want to start a dungeon cool down for that person or not.
2. The banning system will not be activated in the first 5 minutes after entering the dungeon Now the reason I set those things up the way it is. Is because of the following. It's imposible to tell if the person's computer shut down or not. And the reason they actually left. So This would give the decision for the team if they want to ban that person or not. Maybe a person fled based of strategical reasons and the game sets him on cooldown. Players who are on his team will able to choose what to do with that person. Now the second reason is based off the "Team Up" option. Maybe a person really is not happy with the team so he decides to leave well that timer will not be activated however if the person enters the battle and then flees well then it's up to his team to choose what they want to do with that person. Tell me what you think about this type of format. Maybe you can add something or remove something.
You must understand that no one removes the right to flee. All that there should be added is that if a person flees there is a little cool down he has to go trough to enter that dungeon again. I would say not above 10 minutes so that it won't be that big but still gives a thought to a person that flees.
There already is a cool down for the team up. It's fine as it is.
Hmm. Then the best solutions to this problem would look like this:
Once a player flees the rest of the team will receive a vote choice if they want to start a dungeon cool down for that person or not.
2. The banning system will not be activated in the first 5 minutes after entering the dungeon Now the reason I set those things up the way it is. Is because of the following. It's imposible to tell if the person's computer shut down or not. And the reason they actually left. So This would give the decision for the team if they want to ban that person or not. Maybe a person fled based of strategical reasons and the game sets him on cooldown. Players who are on his team will able to choose what to do with that person. Now the second reason is based off the "Team Up" option. Maybe a person really is not happy with the team so he decides to leave well that timer will not be activated however if the person enters the battle and then flees well then it's up to his team to choose what they want to do with that person. Tell me what you think about this type of format. Maybe you can add something or remove something.
Nicholas Star
I would hesitate to give players a vote in bans because dishonest players wouldn't use it as intended. In a vote-ban system, it would be to the advantage of abandoning players to lie about their reasons for leaving so they won't get banned (ie - "Oh no there's a sharknado outside my window I gtg bye," and then no ban.) And there are also bullies and multi-account players who might ban simply to mess with people. In theory, it's great, but in practice, people are sneaky.
The more I think on it, the Team-Up function must be revised along with any cooldown penalties, because its functionality is so limited and Team-Up contributes a lot to the abandonment issue. In its current form, players are 100% blind to a lot the data that they use to inform their decisions to abandon teams later. They really need to be able to see people's levels, schools, roles (tank/hammer/support), goals (mid/full), and have a chance to confirm that they want to enter the dungeon. The current Team-Up does none of that, of course. If players could see all that information, abandonment rates would be greatly reduced, and further isolating the problem group.
If KI improved Team-Up, then I fully agree with starting the ban timer after 5 minutes as you say. After 5 minutes, you start quest activities that start taking significant time, and it's unfair to impose that on teammates if someone don't intend to stay. Abandonment costs other players hours of time, and as that time builds up, it starts costing players actual money.
Other thoughts about penalties:
Cooldown penalties need to affect the first person who leaves, since that is the action that wrecks high stakes dungeons. If anyone abandons after the first person, the penalty needs to be much smaller.
Cooldown penalties need to begin when a player's dungeon recall teleports are reset or cleared, when there are teammates still in the dungeon, and when goal completion flags have not been activated (that's the same as saying "I'm definitely not going back to the dungeon I just left").
If players confirm that they have defeated the mid-boss and do not select "continue dungeon," then all players should be able to leave without penalty, whereas end-of-dungeon completion would be automatically recognized.
Maybe the first offense entails a smaller penalty, +10 mins before you can join the sigil again, but then +10 more minutes each subsequent time the player abandons in the future up to +30 minutes, and then a 24-hour sigil lock (because that would mean someone abandoned their teammates 4 times, which is unlikely to be by accident).
Possibly write in a penalty reset every 24 hours, so people who have unlucky shut-downs don't get locked out unfairly.
The muted, muffled expletives you might hear is me trying to screw the lid back on this can of worms!
Evidently this topic has struck a nerve or two with many people on both sides of the fence. Everyone in W101 has been affected at some time by the actions of others. Sometimes in good ways, other times not so much. Whether it's someone jumping in to a street fight without asking first or leaving a dungeon group at an inappropriate time we've all seen it or perhaps have been the guilty party. Admittedly, I have been both. When I first started playing W101, and didn't know any better, I would jump into a fight just because I could. Now that I'm more familiar with the nuances of the game I will normally ask first before joining. While I have left instances abruptly it's been because I've lost connection. I've never fled a battle because I've loaded the wrong deck or forgotten to switch gear. There have been cases where it's obvious that winning is not going to happen. Even in situations like this I'll stay until I die. Once that happens I'll ask if anyone can heal and if the answer is no I'll tell the other combatants that there's no reason for me to stand there in a daze so I'm leaving. The great thing about this game is that you don't lose anything by losing. Your gear remains, your gold is untouched and your XP stays the same. No penalties. The only thing lost is the time it took you to die. Other responders have said it and it bears repeating - It's Only A Game! - but that doesn't mean courtesy and cooperation should be forgotten.
We aren't really talking about team up. We actually also talking about fleeing.
There should absolutely NEVER be any such penalty for playing the game as intended. This is a game, you lose nothing by other people fleeing. You get a little annoyed and maybe wasted a little time. You are talking about punishing people for no real reason at all, other than their action annoyed you. No game rules are being broken. No one should be forced to play with someone they don't want to. If all these people are joining with you and leaving, maybe you should take a look at yourself and ask why they keep leaving. Also if you aren't talking about people teaming up, there's no reason for this suggestion at all. You joined with them voluntarily.
There should absolutely NEVER be any such penalty for playing the game as intended. This is a game, you lose nothing by other people fleeing. You get a little annoyed and maybe wasted a little time. You are talking about punishing people for no real reason at all, other than their action annoyed you. No game rules are being broken. No one should be forced to play with someone they don't want to. If all these people are joining with you and leaving, maybe you should take a look at yourself and ask why they keep leaving. Also if you aren't talking about people teaming up, there's no reason for this suggestion at all. You joined with them voluntarily.
The muted, muffled expletives you might hear is me trying to screw the lid back on this can of worms!
Evidently this topic has struck a nerve or two with many people on both sides of the fence. Everyone in W101 has been affected at some time by the actions of others. Sometimes in good ways, other times not so much. Whether it's someone jumping in to a street fight without asking first or leaving a dungeon group at an inappropriate time we've all seen it or perhaps have been the guilty party. Admittedly, I have been both. When I first started playing W101, and didn't know any better, I would jump into a fight just because I could. Now that I'm more familiar with the nuances of the game I will normally ask first before joining. While I have left instances abruptly it's been because I've lost connection. I've never fled a battle because I've loaded the wrong deck or forgotten to switch gear. There have been cases where it's obvious that winning is not going to happen. Even in situations like this I'll stay until I die. Once that happens I'll ask if anyone can heal and if the answer is no I'll tell the other combatants that there's no reason for me to stand there in a daze so I'm leaving. The great thing about this game is that you don't lose anything by losing. Your gear remains, your gold is untouched and your XP stays the same. No penalties. The only thing lost is the time it took you to die. Other responders have said it and it bears repeating - It's Only A Game! - but that doesn't mean courtesy and cooperation should be forgotten.
I'm not sure you need to screw the lid back on anything, there are some important issues coming up, like how KI should carefully think about abandonment behavior when a single button click can cost teammates 3 hours of gameplay. Past dungeons didn't have that much at stake, but now they do. Obviously KI can say "that's your problem," but a good many players hope they will take a more enlightened, considerate approach.
I'm not sure you need to screw the lid back on anything, there are some important issues coming up, like how KI should carefully think about abandonment behavior when a single button click can cost teammates 3 hours of gameplay. Past dungeons didn't have that much at stake, but now they do. Obviously KI can say "that's your problem," but a good many players hope they will take a more enlightened, considerate approach.
You been fighting hard for this topic but here a fact.
1 players flee for many reason here the reason most flee
They dislike there team who is rude or full of themselves so you aren't having fun so you flee because its a game and you wanna have fun while playing it not have to go threw a battle with rude people.
They where with a team when they enter and this one guy jump in at last mint now there team mate has been left out that they where planing on going in with but the guy who jump in at last mint started the battle you got suck in so you have to flee.
They tired and it like 12:00 at night and they got a test or work or even plains so they have to get off in turn leading to them fleeing.
There team mate keep killing everything before they even get the chance so they enter this last battle hoping there team mate will let them in before he kills but as soon as you get in boom dead so you get sick of it and next battle you flee.
Then you got people who just wanna bug people and would flee for fun and yes they need a punishment.
Players flee to get heals.
You jump in at last mint hoping to get a team with these guys but they already had a team you enter the battle and they just exit so what are you going do flee because it to hard for you.
Now look at all the people who flee there only one bad sport all these people would surffer because of this so this topic is a bad ideal because as soon as it got in play kl would lose millions of customers because there having to wait 2 hours or what ever the time is to get back in and the place just not worth it.
There is growing support for the idea that something should be done about abandonment, and that current system is not doing enough to deter / prevent abandonment, or protect players who get abandoned.
There is growing support for the idea that something should be done about abandonment, and that current system is not doing enough to deter / prevent abandonment, or protect players who get abandoned.
It's growing in your mind. That thread doesn't show the overwhelming support you seem to read into it. That thread is also talking about a separate issue than this one.
It's growing in your mind. That thread doesn't show the overwhelming support you seem to read into it. That thread is also talking about a separate issue than this one.
It's hardly mental growth. People are talking about the issues, and they do not share your view that no problem exists. There may be differences of opinion on how to tackle it, but my tally says more people believe that there is a problem.
As we all know there are several areas of the game that are farmed for various items like spells, snacks, gear etc. - The Loremaster, Waterworks and Mirror Lake are prime examples. Many times the players farming these areas are much higher level than they would normally be if they were on the initial quest. I have noticed that there are some players that will enter these battles, either through Team-Up or through the sigil, and once they're there if they see that there are lower level players involved they'll bail on the team. Often the bailing is preceded by a comment like "ugh, noobs" or "this will take too long". I understand that many people don't necessarily enjoy the strategy portion of the game but when I find myself in this situation and I'm the higher level player I see it as a challenge - Can I keep these people alive and still manage to win this fight. I figure that ultimately there is no penalty for trying other than the time involved, which is usually not very long, and maybe a little good will might rub off. Pay it forward.
My suggestion is that in a case where a player flees with anything more than zero health there should be a minimum one-hour penalty imposed before that player can enter that instance again.
From the other perspective, that of the lower level player, don't get in these battles and assume that everyone else in there is going to heal you. No need to repeat "I need healing". That's fairly obvious by the fact that you're standing there like a bobble-head.
I guess my whole point is - if you make the commitment then follow through. It's a few minutes of game time and can be rewarding in more ways than just loot.
The penalty is losing your mana and being teleported back to the mainland.
There is kind of already a penalty for people that team up and leave before starting. They have to wait like five minutes before starting team up again when they exit. Which is part of the new update I believe.
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Nicholas Star
