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Feedback Friday 1-28-11

AuthorMessage
Administrator
Happy Friday! This week just FLEW by, and now it's time for yet another Feedback Friday!

Standard disclaimer applies: We do not guarantee to use each and every idea submitted, and questions we pose may or may not be pertaining to things we are currently working on, or will ever undertake. Sometimes, there are just technical limitations that make changing things difficult to impossible, and though we possess all manner of magic wands here, there are technological beasts out there that are beyond our grasp. Sometimes, we may not feel it is within the spirit and vision of the spiral to add or change something. Also, we realize that some of these topics may have been addressed before in other threads - sometimes it's good to pick up a discussion again. Chances are I have read your threads and would like to hear more!

This one is for all you PVP'ers out there. We're aware that while it's definitely a bit of a disadvantage not going first in combat with the big bad monsters out there, it is a HUGE disadvantage in PVP. So, what we would like to ask of you, if you could wave that magic wand, what would you do to fix the disadvantage of going second in PVP?

Thanks as always for participating! Have a wonderful weekend, and we'll see ya in class next week! ::grin::

“If the Mind is like a candle, the Heart is like the sun.” Professor Falmea (aka Leah Ruben, your fearless Producer!)
Survivor
Nov 26, 2010
24
I think to fix the Pvp disatvatge you could switch who goes first every 3, or 5 rounds. that would mix who goes first!

Mastermind
Jun 06, 2009
399
"Fix" the disadvantage? You don't need to fix it.

First of all, it's randomized, so you can't prepare for going first.

Secondly, PvE does prepare you for it (at least once you get to later worlds).

Thirdly, it can make for a bit of a "bragging rights" category ("Yeah? Well, I'VE won 37 matches going SECOND! I remember this time I fought someone with their Level 48 Spell like that...").

Really, character Level, skill level, and even secondary School choice all make for disadvantages. You can't kowtow to those who don't feel like being at a disadvantage, because someone will be. Always.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2081
Okay, my few ideas to solve this dilemna, are:

1: Make Cloak actually invisible to the opponent rather than a emblem with a ? where it would normally go, giving away what what placed, ie, a trap, shield, or dispel.

2: Make each and every round be a toss up on who goes first, make it random each round. Yes, one player might go 1st 3 times in a row, but not the 4th. Have it totally random on who gets to go first each round!

Explorer
Feb 25, 2010
67
Separate the rounds so each player can see what the other did before selecting their next card. That way going first really only means one extra turn.

Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
335
I am not sure how that can be fixed except to give the team going second a chance to go first on the next round. As far as game dynamics is concerned, I'm not sure if that's even possible but it's all I can think of right now.

Or as some might suggest, have each turn, be random. That way, no one knows who is going first or second each round. Once again, I'm not sure of the probability but if it is possible, these seems to most likely alternatives. Other than that, we can just remove certain spells from PVP, since chain stunning and spamming of certain spells are the main reason why players find themselves at disadvantage when going second.

Thank you,

Logan Frost,
Legendary Pyromancer and Arena Knight.

Survivor
Aug 09, 2008
20
I think since the advantage of going first is being able to select your card knowing if you are running into a shield or not. If you have one player select card, cast it, then have next player select card, cast it. Then it would even it out.

Player one: picks tower shield.
Player one casts tower shield

Now it is player twos turn
Player two chooses to wand the tower shield

Back to player ones turn.

and so forth

Survivor
May 12, 2009
6
How about if you start out with one normal 50% tower shield for going second in pvp i would leave the monster battles alone.

Survivor
May 24, 2009
19
I think the simplest solution would be to go from a turn based system to a 1/2 turn system like chess. In other words instead of each wiz choosing a card and the the spells take effect, wizard one would cast a spell and it would activate. Then the second wiz would make his move having seen wiz #1's move.
It would still give an advantage to the wizard going first, but not so much as now. It would also require a shorter countdown to choose your spell as you would efectivley be doubling the number of turns in each match.

Explorer
Nov 06, 2010
65
How about just rotating order in the rounds. If you go first in round 1, you go second in round 2.

Or this could be more fun, what if the order shuffled from side to side randomly? Although that would ruin balance wizards' abilities to help their buddies.

How about if you go first, only 3 cards show up for you to choose from? Limited choices?


Survivor
Jan 02, 2010
2
for pvp, i was thinking limiting whomever goes first to non pip spells and no treasure cards. or maybe giving the second turn player an extra power pip?

Survivor
Jul 17, 2008
20
Survivor
Feb 22, 2010
3

In 1v1 it is not a huge deal, if you lost than you need a better battle plan.

In XvX play it can be a huge factor though. There are really only 2 solutions that I see, neither would be a small thing to implement.

1) Simultanious cast.
This meaning that if second position shields it would count for first position's attack. If a stun is used it would be effective next round regaurdless of position.

2) Cast by position in line-up
E,g, both position 1 wizards cast, than Position 2, 3, 4

Survivor
Feb 07, 2009
5
In 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4. it can be change by allowing each team mate to go next to his opponent. ex. i go first then the first of my opponents then my team mate then the other opponent. it will fix team matches. With 1v1 you can just lower the points you lose when losing since there is not much to do, and you also have a big change of winning from 2nd.

Survivor
May 23, 2009
25
It only makes sense if the whole system doesn't get completely changed as an mmorpg, to take turns of who goes first.

When teams are chosen and wait for their opponents to select accept, there should be a thing where people choose numbers to see who gets closest to a random number for who goes first. That makes the randomizing of who goes first make a little more sense as to "what is random."

Anyways the team that goes second originally should go first on the second turn and so on. If you keep the circle system, that only makes sense to me.

Now I would like to comment on the Ranking system although this may not be the exact thread for it. It is still in similar contrast and makes a difference in who goes first. There should be an option like in Practice Mode for selecting and making matches according to category of level.
Done. Thank you.

Survivor
Apr 12, 2010
9
Yankees15x wrote:
I think since the advantage of going first is being able to select your card knowing if you are running into a shield or not. If you have one player select card, cast it, then have next player select card, cast it. Then it would even it out.

Player one: picks tower shield.
Player one casts tower shield

Now it is player twos turn
Player two chooses to wand the tower shield

Back to player ones turn.

and so forth


Of the present ideas offered I feel this one is most easy to implement and of help. Each player would have a chance to see their opponents actions and make their next selection based on this.

Though one player is going first, this system eliminates the first advantage after the first full turn sequence. Since each player would get the same view, select, act.

This could also be done in a way within PVE (though it isnt fully needed there). This would allow players going second to see what the Monsters have selected and themselves pick accordingly. Since KI prefers to keep as many things from PVE to PVP the same. This would not complicate the learning process involved.

Survivor
Dec 09, 2008
49
Wins from second should be awarded more rank points/arena tickets than wins from first.

Survivor
Jan 20, 2010
2
Well, for one thing .. I refuse to do PVP until something is changed. I have something like a 90% win percentage going first and a 10% win percentage going second. It's ridiculous.

Secondly ... as bad as it is in a 1v1 fight, it's even that much worse in a team fight. The entire TEAM gets to go first before you? Way too swingy. Get off a stun, and the fight is essentially over. Four players who get to go unabated should be able to finish a fight. Every time.

The obvious default option is to alternate who goes first and second, so I would also suggest you expand that to a back and forth amongst teams. Team One is ABCD and Team Two is EFGH, then the turn order should start with AEBFCGDH. This of course still gets issues with the stuns, but allows less chance for a full setup beforehand. The options afterward are probably:

EAFBGCHD then AEBFCGDH again ... or if you really wanted to actually give a proper mixture, EAFBGCHD, then BFCGDHAE ... move that first player of a turn down the line.

Any established card based combat game, mostly the CCGs, have some of limitation if you go first. Magic doesn't let the first player draw a card. Pokemon limits the card types you can play if you're first player, first turn. They all recognize the power. And those games don't even have entire teams going first. It's just unacceptable.

Community Leader
Hi Professor!

This may not be practical, but if there could be separate Card Selection phases, Second Turn would have less of a disadvantage. A significant reason why First Turn is advantageous is the benefit of being able to "pause" after a set of cards have been played. Thus, perhaps a modified system could be put into place, one that mimics how most card games are played:

First Turn (selection phase) --> First Turn Battle Animation --> Second Turn (selection phase) --> Second Turn Battle Animation --> (repeat)

Second Turn players have many factors that interfere with a balanced anticipation level; one prominent one is that they are restricted ("forced") to blindly cast against potential Dispels, whereas First Turn is given the option to decide on how to remove them.

One important thing to realize is that this modified system does affect Beguile's effectiveness as well, but again, that spell is truly efficient when used by First Turn.

--KBB

Survivor
Jun 17, 2010
2
Here is my plan, my master plan XD:

-Ok one player goes first, but he has 20-25 seconds to make a move. The second player, does NOT make a move, he just stands there.

-After the 1st player has made a move, then the triangle endpoint goes to the second player. Then, the 1st player, does NOT make a move, but is the 2nd player's turn to make his own move, now seeing what the 1st player has prepared.

So that way, if he feints you, now you can tower, instead of using blade since ya didnt know he would feint

Plz fix it sooon and thx w101!!

Survivor
May 24, 2009
19
Another good idea I have seen is to have both players choose their card, and then the turns are based on what type of card each player chose. Example: shields would cast before attacks, attacks would cast before heals etc. ( This Is Not My idea, but I am not sure who origanily posted it). This would obviously be a more complicated fix than the chess based system.

Survivor
Apr 06, 2010
22
I'd just say put up a ga-billion zillion shields without wasting pips, maybe. :|

Also, try to use your pet(s) that give health, too.

Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
335
Most of the responses are straight out of Yu-Gi-Oh. I want wizard101 to remain unique; not a copy of some other game system. As one player stated in a previous post, someone will always be at a disadvantage. I have gone second and won and I have also gone first and lost.

Most of the times we loose because our decks are not "cooperating" with us. Sometimes you see the attack coming but none of the 7 shields you have in your deck is available to cast! And that cost you the match.

The Key to dueling is reading your opponent's next move. Often times I read the move but do not have the spell in hand to counter. Maybe what could happen is that for each spell that you discard from your hand, another will show up from your main deck (not side deck), that way you a chance to get the spell that you really need to cast.

But I think that PVP need it's own spells. You can't even use your arena tickets to buy pet derby stuff or vice versa. So why not arena spells? or just make some spells PVE only.

Professor Falmea, let's face it. The problem is not going second. The problem is that players are being stunned, beguiled, dispelled and tower shield spamming. If players can play without the fear of any of the above then it's very unlikely that they'd complain about who goes first or second. What do you have to say when you go second and still loose? Anyone can answer. it has happened. I even see a 2v3 duel and the team with only 2 players won and they went second at that!

You can win going second. I think that you should know what school your opponent is and what level before you enter the duel so that you can set your deck accordingly. that should solve it. especially for 1v1, that way you don't stock up on spells you won't need.

It's a tricky situation , maybe you ought to look at the whole PVP system and give it a make-over. A patch here and a patch there is not gonna work out in the long run. Unless you want to adopt the Yu-Gi-Oh style of combat where players place their cards out in the open and then select a move which will give their opponents a chance to either block or counter-attack. I don't think this will go over well with the wz101 community though and the kids would probably get confused.

Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
335
Professor Falmea, I think you might find this post on central most helpful in your pursuit of a solution to PVP.

You may click on the link and read, if you are so inclined...

http://www.wizard101central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136939&highlight=

Survivor
Dec 19, 2009
26
Well truly going second in PvP gives me the mentality that i lose, because i feel disadvantaged.

-Someone Mentioned it-
Making it randon each round would help. or switch the team that goes first every few rounds would be best.

Oh and, which ever idea you guys think is best...is it possible to put it for test in test realm? and yes i know that these feedbacks arent guaranteed to change things.