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Dual School Mastery Amulets

AuthorMessage
Defender
Mar 31, 2015
148
Wouldn't it be great to have a School mastery amulet that can be used for more than just one supplementary school? No more would anyone have to choose between their life and myth mastery (for example); just have both of your amulets combined into one, problem solved! For those of us that already have the requisite 'ammys', simply allow for us to trade our two old 'ammys' for the new and improved double ammy of our schools' choice!

I am in no way suggesting that the 'old' mastery amulets be removed, just that there could hopefully be an amulet improvement for at least the players that have 35+ training points at their disposal (e.g. Promethean and Exalted), and that can easily learn a second, third, and even a fourth school.

Perhaps this should be Exalted only to provide incentive to reach that level.

Every school will benefit from having Dual Mastery; however it will spice - ahem, shake things up for pvp. But in terms of questing, I have found this to be a well-received idea. It may lead to pretty much everyone to have to have at least one mastery to stay afloat, but I would say that a quite a few people have at least one mastery already.

What is your opinion about this?

Adrian

Exalted , Up-and-coming .
Promethean Crafter, Rank 10 Gardener, etc.

Champion
Jun 26, 2009
415
Lucas Rain made some suggestions on this as well.

https://www.wizard101.com/forum/the-dorms/encourage-secondary-school-play-after-level-60-8ad6a4154d706ef3014d71c8c3160a0f

Seeing as how exalted wizards will still be earning training points after the level cap gets raised, it would be nice to diversify into other schools. So we can as you say. shake things up. I think one of the problems is that we all look the same at exalted. Most of us are pretty much wearing the same gear options. Meaning you have an idea of what to expect.

Defender
Nov 12, 2013
109
Mastery jewels seem like a more desirable approach than dual mastery schools amulets. It is simple effective and it might be possible to obtain 3 sockets, so 3 non-main schools at your disposal.

Defender
Mar 31, 2015
148
Wow, thanks for the superb link, sorry to be a bit redundant with my post. I love the ideas suggested by Lucas, especially the bit about higher off-school spells being available and mastery jewels. I only hope that the jewels, if implemented, can be bought for Crowns as well as being available as a drop. My farming tolerance has dropped severely since Darkmoor.

Survivor
Nov 25, 2011
20
Survivor
Jul 13, 2014
43
Geographer
Dec 14, 2009
892
No. Absolutely not. I know many of you consider this a great idea, but it is far from it. Mastery amulets were a terrible thing to introduce in the first place, and this suggestion only expands the problem exponentially. It would be a major leap into hastening this games downfall, and is that what you really want? To survive, a mmorpg has to be dependent on multiple classes, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, who work with each other to overcome obstacles in the game. When this process becomes diluted, and individual characters become juggernauts who no longer need the others, mmorpg games fail. This type of thinking has been a major component in many of the classic mmorg's downfall, let's not let that happen here. A much better solution would be to get rid of mastery amulets altogether, and have KI implement things that accentuates each characters strength, instead of stealing from other characters uniqueness. I know everyone who likes this idea means well, but it will cause far more harm than any good that would come from it.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2226
Intrepidatius on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
No. Absolutely not. I know many of you consider this a great idea, but it is far from it. Mastery amulets were a terrible thing to introduce in the first place, and this suggestion only expands the problem exponentially. It would be a major leap into hastening this games downfall, and is that what you really want? To survive, a mmorpg has to be dependent on multiple classes, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, who work with each other to overcome obstacles in the game. When this process becomes diluted, and individual characters become juggernauts who no longer need the others, mmorpg games fail. This type of thinking has been a major component in many of the classic mmorg's downfall, let's not let that happen here. A much better solution would be to get rid of mastery amulets altogether, and have KI implement things that accentuates each characters strength, instead of stealing from other characters uniqueness. I know everyone who likes this idea means well, but it will cause far more harm than any good that would come from it.
quote: To survive, a mmorpg has to be dependent on multiple classes, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, who work with each other to overcome obstacles in the game. When this process becomes diluted, and individual characters become juggernauts who no longer need the others, mmorpg games fail.

This next comment is made from fact, and not from displeasure about the school, so please (everybody) keep that in mind:

This has already happened though, and has nothing to do with mastery amulets. Storm gets gear that complete nullifies it's fizzle rate, which is its big equalizer for its massive damage. Combine that with it's healing spell's potential and it makes it a juggernaut who no longer needs the others. Once storm gets Tempest, it can practically run the table for the rest of the game with that one attack spell. I'm co-training with a friend, his storm and my myth, and he just tempests everything in the game. Now, granted, we're still in DS, so the sharp incline of enemies hasnt happened yet, but this isnt his first storm, nor is it the first time I've quested with him.

Also, if we continue the "what breaks other MMORPGS will break W101" thread, then why do we have training points for learning out of school spells, and BOTH pips and mana for spell casting? I am NOT saying that Dual Masteries is a good or bad thing, I'm simply mentioning that W101 is now, and has never been, a conventional MMORPG. We dont deal with DPS, we dont have difficulty levels, we dont have LOCKED character classes that can ONLY learn stuff from that class, nor do we have monsters with BILLIONS of hit points we have to overcome.

I very much appreciate, and Im sure KI does to, your opinion and desire to not break the game, but keep in mind that W101 is a different mold from the rest

Hero
Sep 07, 2011
761
Double mastery seems OP.

Let's stick with what we have, but add a Moon Mastery to make Shift spells useful, or perhaps a Simplify or Elucidate jewel that would let us reduce the cost of one spell, but not unlimited to keep things from getting too OP.

Geographer
Dec 14, 2009
892
dayerider on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
quote: To survive, a mmorpg has to be dependent on multiple classes, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, who work with each other to overcome obstacles in the game. When this process becomes diluted, and individual characters become juggernauts who no longer need the others, mmorpg games fail.

This next comment is made from fact, and not from displeasure about the school, so please (everybody) keep that in mind:

This has already happened though, and has nothing to do with mastery amulets. Storm gets gear that complete nullifies it's fizzle rate, which is its big equalizer for its massive damage. Combine that with it's healing spell's potential and it makes it a juggernaut who no longer needs the others. Once storm gets Tempest, it can practically run the table for the rest of the game with that one attack spell. I'm co-training with a friend, his storm and my myth, and he just tempests everything in the game. Now, granted, we're still in DS, so the sharp incline of enemies hasnt happened yet, but this isnt his first storm, nor is it the first time I've quested with him.

Also, if we continue the "what breaks other MMORPGS will break W101" thread, then why do we have training points for learning out of school spells, and BOTH pips and mana for spell casting? I am NOT saying that Dual Masteries is a good or bad thing, I'm simply mentioning that W101 is now, and has never been, a conventional MMORPG. We dont deal with DPS, we dont have difficulty levels, we dont have LOCKED character classes that can ONLY learn stuff from that class, nor do we have monsters with BILLIONS of hit points we have to overcome.

I very much appreciate, and Im sure KI does to, your opinion and desire to not break the game, but keep in mind that W101 is a different mold from the rest
As I stated clearly, "KI should invest in stuff that accentuates our existing strengths, not stealing uniqueness from other wizards". This is just a bad idea. As to your reference that W101 is different....every game is different than the others. They also have similarities. I have not seen suggestions as these work in any of the games I am familiar with ,and I seriously doubt it would here. I could be wrong though, but in these matters of what is healthy for the game, I haven't been yet.

Geographer
Dec 14, 2009
892
Gemma Luna on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
Double mastery seems OP.

Let's stick with what we have, but add a Moon Mastery to make Shift spells useful, or perhaps a Simplify or Elucidate jewel that would let us reduce the cost of one spell, but not unlimited to keep things from getting too OP.
That is a much better suggestion. I would prefer the amulets go away entirely, but also realize that there is no viable way to do so now.

Defender
Nov 12, 2013
109
Intrepidatius on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
No. Absolutely not. I know many of you consider this a great idea, but it is far from it. Mastery amulets were a terrible thing to introduce in the first place, and this suggestion only expands the problem exponentially. It would be a major leap into hastening this games downfall, and is that what you really want? To survive, a mmorpg has to be dependent on multiple classes, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, who work with each other to overcome obstacles in the game. When this process becomes diluted, and individual characters become juggernauts who no longer need the others, mmorpg games fail. This type of thinking has been a major component in many of the classic mmorg's downfall, let's not let that happen here. A much better solution would be to get rid of mastery amulets altogether, and have KI implement things that accentuates each characters strength, instead of stealing from other characters uniqueness. I know everyone who likes this idea means well, but it will cause far more harm than any good that would come from it.
You're completely overeacting, mastery amulets have bettered everyone, most importantly life mastery. Without a life mastery amulet ice wizards, myth wizards, and fire wizards would all suffer because they cannot heal themselves effectively. KI realized this, that's why they added mastery amulets to the game in the first place, so obviously they didn't believe it was a terrible idea but actually quite the opposite.

Strengths and weaknesses? Storm is a powerhouse, they can hit harder with massive pierce, heal themselves, and as of darkmoor, cannot fizzle! Storm can basically solo the game once they get healing current. Storm is already a juggernaut that does not need others. I fail to see the point your trying to make.

Besides, mastery amulets for schools other than life, lose their purpose after level 50 or so because wizards cannot learn secondary school spells past rank 6, sadly. KI inputted master amulets specifically designed to prevent the downfall of other schools, so the game wouldn't collapse, and so far they have done an excellent job in fixing their mistakes.

Your interpretation of mastery amulets is flawed as you tend to search for negativity but find nothing but the good they have brought. I arrest my case.


Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2226
Gemma Luna on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
Double mastery seems OP.

Let's stick with what we have, but add a Moon Mastery to make Shift spells useful, or perhaps a Simplify or Elucidate jewel that would let us reduce the cost of one spell, but not unlimited to keep things from getting too OP.
How about if we just make shift spells use powerpips only for the school casting the same shift spell. So, for example, Shift Grendel should use powerpips only if fire is using it. Mastery Amulets should actually NOT be used for astral spells at all. Make Mastery Amulets also effect the other shift spells like same school would. The shift spells are just, for most wizards, a waste of time. They have some use, sure, but many wizards I know, dont even bother with Moon spells at all.

Historian
Nov 28, 2010
613
I don't really see the value in a second or third class of spells anyway. Maybe it does something in PvP... I don't know. I don't do PvP. But in PvE, I'll take my Ice wizard as an example. He has some universal modifiers, but a lot of his attack modifiers apply to just Ice.

I can train up to what, Wraith in Death? With Ice I have +40% and +50% Iceblades, +35% and +45% Elemental Blades, a +40% pet Iceblade, and a +45% amulet Iceblade to use with any of my spells in addition to my gear enhancements. I could train Spirit Blade to get +35% and +45% for the Wraith, but without treasure cards, that's it as far as blades, and I probably have about 20% less in gear modifiers. The hit is going to be weak

Maybe in Marleybone that would have been good. But Khrysalis? I don't see any reason to waste my time on a secondary school, training up to Feint and Tower Shield in off schools being my only exceptions. I play within my school because that's where my greatest power and strength lies.

Balance is the only school where I could see having a secondary school could come in handy. But again, with the cap on what spells you can learn up to... good for the people who are able to come up with a winning strategy dual classing their spell book, but it just doesn't work for me. Just more spells to jump in the way of spells I'm hoping will come up. They aren't going to do enough to help me.

Defender
Mar 31, 2015
148
If you can't beat them, join them, as they say. Why is multiple mastery such a bad idea at the higher levels, especially if it will be easy to get? While I respect Intepidatius' opinion, and I understand the reasoning behind it, I don't entirely agree with it.

For one, Exalted PVP is already ridiculous, with Storms able to dish out a potential 3500 unshielded per turn with Wild Bolt / Infallible (and no your resist is not going to help, trust me), Death wizards spamming Skeletal Dragon / Empower / Khrulhu, Myth wizards with Medusa / Basilisk / King Artorius, Life with Hungry Caterpillar / Luminous Weaver / Spinysaur / Guardian Spirit, all with currently next to no availibility of TC such as Triage, Enfeeble, Shift, etc.

On quote:'To survive, a mmorpg has to be dependent on multiple classes, each with their own strengths and weaknesses ... When this process becomes diluted, and individual characters become juggernauts who no longer need the others, mmorpg games fail'.

Umm yeah, sure... Life can happily solo just about the entire game besides a couple of end-of-world Dungeons and parts of Khrysalis, as can Balance, not to mention Storm (past Celestia). I don't know enough about the other schools to speak for them, but if the answer is no to any of the others, well then. And, at Exalted, you should be almost entirely self-sufficient anyway.

Your opinion has merit concerning the suggestion of training the higher-rank off-school spells, as per the link by Mr. Talon. I can agree that the spells from Celestia or Zafaria onwards should stay school-specific. (Otherwise, what is the point of training any particular school?).

But I am not in favor of restricting freedom and variety of play in favor of frankly cookie-cutter game-play roles like
' heals', ' amplifies/modifies', ' attacks', ' shields', ' drains', ' summons minions', and so on. I am perfectly fine with that being our respective schools' specialty, but making that our only viable option stagnates gameplay.

Explorer
Mar 24, 2009
58
Intrepidatius on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
No. Absolutely not. I know many of you consider this a great idea, but it is far from it. Mastery amulets were a terrible thing to introduce in the first place, and this suggestion only expands the problem exponentially. It would be a major leap into hastening this games downfall, and is that what you really want? To survive, a mmorpg has to be dependent on multiple classes, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, who work with each other to overcome obstacles in the game. When this process becomes diluted, and individual characters become juggernauts who no longer need the others, mmorpg games fail. This type of thinking has been a major component in many of the classic mmorg's downfall, let's not let that happen here. A much better solution would be to get rid of mastery amulets altogether, and have KI implement things that accentuates each characters strength, instead of stealing from other characters uniqueness. I know everyone who likes this idea means well, but it will cause far more harm than any good that would come from it.
This isn't exactly true. Each school still gets a bunch of spells that aren't readily available with training points (i.e. Tempest, Scald, etc.) A few of them like ice, storm, and balance don't have their blades available with training points, so they'd be impossible to add to the persons main deck. I realize this will be allowed using trading cards, but a) those are finite and b) can't really use them to their full ability due to lack of blades/traps that actual school wizards gets. For example, a fire wizard could use Fire From Above with a Fireblade, Sharpened Fire Blade, TC Fire Blade, Fire Trap, Potent Fire Trap, and TC Fire Trap, but a Myth Wizard with a Fire Amulet could only use the TC Fireblade and TC Fire Trap to pump up that attack. That's a big difference there.

Geographer
Dec 14, 2009
892
Arcanexo on Aug 15, 2015 wrote:
You're completely overeacting, mastery amulets have bettered everyone, most importantly life mastery. Without a life mastery amulet ice wizards, myth wizards, and fire wizards would all suffer because they cannot heal themselves effectively. KI realized this, that's why they added mastery amulets to the game in the first place, so obviously they didn't believe it was a terrible idea but actually quite the opposite.

Strengths and weaknesses? Storm is a powerhouse, they can hit harder with massive pierce, heal themselves, and as of darkmoor, cannot fizzle! Storm can basically solo the game once they get healing current. Storm is already a juggernaut that does not need others. I fail to see the point your trying to make.

Besides, mastery amulets for schools other than life, lose their purpose after level 50 or so because wizards cannot learn secondary school spells past rank 6, sadly. KI inputted master amulets specifically designed to prevent the downfall of other schools, so the game wouldn't collapse, and so far they have done an excellent job in fixing their mistakes.

Your interpretation of mastery amulets is flawed as you tend to search for negativity but find nothing but the good they have brought. I arrest my case.

I speak from years of experience in these matters. I am not speaking of my personal preference, as I have none on this issue. This is a bad idea, despite if you understand it or not. Your last sentence equates your knowledge and understanding of this issue perfectly.... "I arrest my case" ..... no rebuttal needed after that.

Geographer
Dec 14, 2009
892
GoCowbvoys on Aug 16, 2015 wrote:
This isn't exactly true. Each school still gets a bunch of spells that aren't readily available with training points (i.e. Tempest, Scald, etc.) A few of them like ice, storm, and balance don't have their blades available with training points, so they'd be impossible to add to the persons main deck. I realize this will be allowed using trading cards, but a) those are finite and b) can't really use them to their full ability due to lack of blades/traps that actual school wizards gets. For example, a fire wizard could use Fire From Above with a Fireblade, Sharpened Fire Blade, TC Fire Blade, Fire Trap, Potent Fire Trap, and TC Fire Trap, but a Myth Wizard with a Fire Amulet could only use the TC Fireblade and TC Fire Trap to pump up that attack. That's a big difference there.
No wizard class should be able to use spells outside of their class at all, but everything I stated is absolutely true, and while my opinions could be wrong, they are not blind, as they have the weight of years of direct experience in these matters. Always remember, everything added to the game that takes away the "uniqueness" of one toon, and lets others use it as their own, is NOT a good idea. It simply adds to the downfall of a game. The hardest thing to explain to anyone is that their preference, may not be healthy for the game. You are obviously intelligent, and I do see the point you are trying to make.

Explorer
Jul 20, 2014
57
I think this is a bad idea as well. It is a move in the wrong direction in my opinion. Since we are stuck with the amulets now anyway, I would favor a suggestion such as Gemma made, but I don't see any good coming from this suggestion. I am probably older than most here, and have seen quite a few games come, and go. Whenever suggestions as these came to fruition, it invariably spelled doom for that game. Specialty classes, or sub-classes is the way to go for spending unused training points, but not the way suggested here.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2226
High Five Ghost on Aug 15, 2015 wrote:
I don't really see the value in a second or third class of spells anyway. Maybe it does something in PvP... I don't know. I don't do PvP. But in PvE, I'll take my Ice wizard as an example. He has some universal modifiers, but a lot of his attack modifiers apply to just Ice.

I can train up to what, Wraith in Death? With Ice I have +40% and +50% Iceblades, +35% and +45% Elemental Blades, a +40% pet Iceblade, and a +45% amulet Iceblade to use with any of my spells in addition to my gear enhancements. I could train Spirit Blade to get +35% and +45% for the Wraith, but without treasure cards, that's it as far as blades, and I probably have about 20% less in gear modifiers. The hit is going to be weak

Maybe in Marleybone that would have been good. But Khrysalis? I don't see any reason to waste my time on a secondary school, training up to Feint and Tower Shield in off schools being my only exceptions. I play within my school because that's where my greatest power and strength lies.

Balance is the only school where I could see having a secondary school could come in handy. But again, with the cap on what spells you can learn up to... good for the people who are able to come up with a winning strategy dual classing their spell book, but it just doesn't work for me. Just more spells to jump in the way of spells I'm hoping will come up. They aren't going to do enough to help me.
Yes, you can train up to wraith in death, but unless you have a mastery amulet, you're going to use (potentially) 12 our of 14 pips to cast the spell. The big draw of mastery amulets is NOT being able to use new spells, but to use them more efficiently. For instance, On my fire, I have a life mastery and use satyr. The big deal is being able to use satyr faster than without the mastery amulet; 2 rounds vs 4 rounds. I use my life amulet for healing effectiveness. My death has a balance mastery so he can use reshuffle faster (yes, I know about the tc version and it being 3 pips not 4). My life uses balance mastery for the same thing. My myth uses life for better healing.

I understand everybody has their own strategy for playing the game, and that's great, but people do rely on mastery amulets to help their gaming out.

Geographer
Dec 14, 2009
892
Mental Void on Aug 16, 2015 wrote:
I think this is a bad idea as well. It is a move in the wrong direction in my opinion. Since we are stuck with the amulets now anyway, I would favor a suggestion such as Gemma made, but I don't see any good coming from this suggestion. I am probably older than most here, and have seen quite a few games come, and go. Whenever suggestions as these came to fruition, it invariably spelled doom for that game. Specialty classes, or sub-classes is the way to go for spending unused training points, but not the way suggested here.
Exactly. You understand what many do not. Sub-classes and such would be a much healthier option for the game in my opinion.

Defender
Nov 12, 2013
109
Intrepidatius on Aug 17, 2015 wrote:
Exactly. You understand what many do not. Sub-classes and such would be a much healthier option for the game in my opinion.
Sub-classes would be a great addition to the game, but we're already to far away from the beginning to make major adjustments such as those. It's like adding another primary school, it's too late.

Defender
Nov 12, 2013
109
Intrepidatius on Aug 16, 2015 wrote:
No wizard class should be able to use spells outside of their class at all, but everything I stated is absolutely true, and while my opinions could be wrong, they are not blind, as they have the weight of years of direct experience in these matters. Always remember, everything added to the game that takes away the "uniqueness" of one toon, and lets others use it as their own, is NOT a good idea. It simply adds to the downfall of a game. The hardest thing to explain to anyone is that their preference, may not be healthy for the game. You are obviously intelligent, and I do see the point you are trying to make.
If wizards could not use spells outside of their school, fire, ice, and myth would surely fall. Is that what you want? That would hasten the downfall of the game even more so, but you're too blind to realize this is the conclusion I'm getting from you. Don't you think the developers encountered an idea like this before? Obviously the current course of action is the best course of action, and they're surely not going to change the entire game because of one person's diatribe.

Geographer
Dec 14, 2009
892
Arcanexo on Aug 17, 2015 wrote:
If wizards could not use spells outside of their school, fire, ice, and myth would surely fall. Is that what you want? That would hasten the downfall of the game even more so, but you're too blind to realize this is the conclusion I'm getting from you. Don't you think the developers encountered an idea like this before? Obviously the current course of action is the best course of action, and they're surely not going to change the entire game because of one person's diatribe.
The more you argue your cause, the weaker you make your own argument. The game is already flawed in many ways, and this suggestion only makes it worse. The less unique you make each class, the weaker the game becomes, until eventually the game fails. This is not a simple opinion I am presenting, it is a fact that has destroyed many good games. Just because you like an idea, doesn't mean it is healthy for the continued longevity of the game. I understand you like this suggestion, but you don't understand the consequences that come with your simple preference. Think about what is good for others, and the game, not your own selfish desires. If more people did that, the game would be much better off. This is hardly a single diatribe; I suggest you do a little research before you continue to champion a cause of which you obviously have no knowledge.

Explorer
Jul 20, 2014
57
Arcanexo on Aug 17, 2015 wrote:
Sub-classes would be a great addition to the game, but we're already to far away from the beginning to make major adjustments such as those. It's like adding another primary school, it's too late.
No, it is not, you are completely wrong in that assertion. I myself play/support a game that has been around almost 10 years, and they just added specialty classes a couple years ago. I also know of several other games that has done the same. I am also guessing many more have as well. You should choose your words more wisely, and carefully, as you are judged by them in these environments, and so far your words are not helping your cause.