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Challenge-Based Farming: A Better Way to Farm

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AuthorMessage
Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
Farming is a waste of time that defeats the point of gaming, which is to have fun. People always tell you to do it, which is why I tried at first, but I've given up on farming gear because I realized this truth. Also, the gear I have is good enough for PvE. But not for other people apparently. Similar to what people have done when they find out I don't use Tempest, I've gotten deleted by friends, abandoned in dungeons, and made fun of because I don't have the latest "essential" gear.

There is a harmful mindset in Wizard101 that this game is a career, and it leeches into every part of the game. Like jobs at a company, schools must conform to certain requirements, and there are even more requirements that everyone must follow. Storm wizards must use Tempest and everyone above Level 100 must use Darkmoor gear, and so on. If not, they get "fired". The purpose of the game is not to be the most powerful, but to have fun.

Farming is one of the biggest culprits perpetuating the Career Mindset. Also, in some areas where farming is essential like PvP, it rewards the biggest time wasters. I talk more about that here: https://www.wizard101.com/forum/player-vs-player/the-truth-about-pvp-8ad6a42563f834ce01640384b2a459f6#

Farming needs to be fixed, but how? I present to you: Challenge-Based Farming. Keep farming as it is, but add Challenge-Based Farming on top of it. This works by designing a challenge for each drop category (drop categories as in hats, robes, etc). If you complete the challenge of a specific drop category, you will only get drops from that category without the drop amount being reduced. However, if you ignore challenges, farming will work as it does now. A challenge could be, to get drops from only the hat category, you must defeat the boss with a treasure card Leviathan that does within 1000 overkill but no more, and you must do this 4 times. There should also be an option of choosing a drop you want, but in order to have a guarantee of getting it you must complete the challenge of the drop's drop category additional times. An integral part of this idea though is lack of secrecy. The challenges and how much they need to be completed are public info.

Thoughts?

Armiger
Aug 03, 2014
2101
Fable Finder on Jun 19, 2018 wrote:
Farming is a waste of time that defeats the point of gaming, which is to have fun. People always tell you to do it, which is why I tried at first, but I've given up on farming gear because I realized this truth. Also, the gear I have is good enough for PvE. But not for other people apparently. Similar to what people have done when they find out I don't use Tempest, I've gotten deleted by friends, abandoned in dungeons, and made fun of because I don't have the latest "essential" gear.

There is a harmful mindset in Wizard101 that this game is a career, and it leeches into every part of the game. Like jobs at a company, schools must conform to certain requirements, and there are even more requirements that everyone must follow. Storm wizards must use Tempest and everyone above Level 100 must use Darkmoor gear, and so on. If not, they get "fired". The purpose of the game is not to be the most powerful, but to have fun.

Farming is one of the biggest culprits perpetuating the Career Mindset. Also, in some areas where farming is essential like PvP, it rewards the biggest time wasters. I talk more about that here: https://www.wizard101.com/forum/player-vs-player/the-truth-about-pvp-8ad6a42563f834ce01640384b2a459f6#

Farming needs to be fixed, but how? I present to you: Challenge-Based Farming. Keep farming as it is, but add Challenge-Based Farming on top of it. This works by designing a challenge for each drop category (drop categories as in hats, robes, etc). If you complete the challenge of a specific drop category, you will only get drops from that category without the drop amount being reduced. However, if you ignore challenges, farming will work as it does now. A challenge could be, to get drops from only the hat category, you must defeat the boss with a treasure card Leviathan that does within 1000 overkill but no more, and you must do this 4 times. There should also be an option of choosing a drop you want, but in order to have a guarantee of getting it you must complete the challenge of the drop's drop category additional times. An integral part of this idea though is lack of secrecy. The challenges and how much they need to be completed are public info.

Thoughts?
I understand where you're coming from and I have a lot of friends who don't bother with the latest/best gear or even the 'best' strategies. They use what they happen to get and they play any way they want. It was a bit daunting (but also refreshing) the first time I joined them for some dungeons because when I asked them what they wanted me to do within the team the response was, "Whatever you like!". There was no planning, no strategy and we all jumped in and had such a laugh! We won and everyone got drops. I have no doubt the battle must have taken longer this way but the laughing, joking and chatting was so enjoyable the time flew by. I really enjoy spending time with them

I also have some teams who are the exact opposite. We have to get the best gear and we work together to get the entire team everything they want/need as efficiently as possible. I love farming with them too because it has an intensity and determination and is goal oriented. We also chat, joke and laugh loads too

I think it is relevant that just because someone is goal oriented or strives to be the best possible isn't a time-waste or slog for some people...some of us enjoy that...and some of us enjoy both play styles

I like your challenge based idea and see it as a different challenge system to how it is now. The challenge we face as it is, is completing the battle or dungeon. Having both challenges in play and different people in the same team having completely different objectives/needs would likely cause a lot of issues and difficulties - 4 people in a team all wanting different items, all trying to achieve a certain criteria and one just wanting it done asap would be very complicated. Learning the different goals, prepping for them and KI coding for them sounds quite complicated too.

Perhaps an idea you might like is a 'token system' that's been discussed before. Each battle you get a token towards crafting any item from the drop table? What do you think?

Survivor
Jul 12, 2015
20
This would be a great idea! I love the idea about the token for crafting(hope I said that right) because I've farmed so much for specific items. It gets pretty complicated but I understand the drop rate and such. As for the people who judge based on gear: There is some pretty good bazaar gear! I've even gotten some of my school-based stitches for my characters. (one of my examples is the one cape robe you can get for ice that has all the "Icy" affects on it. I believe it's called Katzensteins robe )

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Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
Challenge-based farming is an excellent suggestion.

But why stop there. Why not allow players to select the drop items they seek before they enter the dungeon.
Or let players craft the item, after obtaining a specific number of items in the same dungeons.

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
winter101270 on Jun 22, 2018 wrote:
This would be a great idea! I love the idea about the token for crafting(hope I said that right) because I've farmed so much for specific items. It gets pretty complicated but I understand the drop rate and such. As for the people who judge based on gear: There is some pretty good bazaar gear! I've even gotten some of my school-based stitches for my characters. (one of my examples is the one cape robe you can get for ice that has all the "Icy" affects on it. I believe it's called Katzensteins robe )

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Ironically my gear is actually decent, I got Malistaire's Robe on my first run of Darkmoor (but my other gear is different), yet I'm still trashed for it sometimes

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
Tylerwildpants on Jun 23, 2018 wrote:
Challenge-based farming is an excellent suggestion.

But why stop there. Why not allow players to select the drop items they seek before they enter the dungeon.
Or let players craft the item, after obtaining a specific number of items in the same dungeons.
I said this:

There should also be an option of choosing a drop you want, but in order to have a guarantee of getting it you must complete the challenge of the drop's drop category additional times.

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
Victoria FireHeart on Jun 20, 2018 wrote:
I understand where you're coming from and I have a lot of friends who don't bother with the latest/best gear or even the 'best' strategies. They use what they happen to get and they play any way they want. It was a bit daunting (but also refreshing) the first time I joined them for some dungeons because when I asked them what they wanted me to do within the team the response was, "Whatever you like!". There was no planning, no strategy and we all jumped in and had such a laugh! We won and everyone got drops. I have no doubt the battle must have taken longer this way but the laughing, joking and chatting was so enjoyable the time flew by. I really enjoy spending time with them

I also have some teams who are the exact opposite. We have to get the best gear and we work together to get the entire team everything they want/need as efficiently as possible. I love farming with them too because it has an intensity and determination and is goal oriented. We also chat, joke and laugh loads too

I think it is relevant that just because someone is goal oriented or strives to be the best possible isn't a time-waste or slog for some people...some of us enjoy that...and some of us enjoy both play styles

I like your challenge based idea and see it as a different challenge system to how it is now. The challenge we face as it is, is completing the battle or dungeon. Having both challenges in play and different people in the same team having completely different objectives/needs would likely cause a lot of issues and difficulties - 4 people in a team all wanting different items, all trying to achieve a certain criteria and one just wanting it done asap would be very complicated. Learning the different goals, prepping for them and KI coding for them sounds quite complicated too.

Perhaps an idea you might like is a 'token system' that's been discussed before. Each battle you get a token towards crafting any item from the drop table? What do you think?
That would simplify things. Even though crafting can be hard and time-consuming I can tolerate it because there is an end in sight. With farming as it is now, you could finish tomorrow, or in 6 months. That mystery is one of the worst things about farming.

Armiger
Aug 03, 2014
2101
Fable Finder on Jun 24, 2018 wrote:
That would simplify things. Even though crafting can be hard and time-consuming I can tolerate it because there is an end in sight. With farming as it is now, you could finish tomorrow, or in 6 months. That mystery is one of the worst things about farming.
Yes, I think we like the idea because it's quantifiable. We can see progress even when we don't get the drop and the 'fail' runs still feel of value.

The even simpler solution wouldn't require coding for specific tokens and recipes though. A possible 'easier' solution could be if KI added some more crafted gear recipes along our journey using some of the less rare gear drops we're likely to get along the way...a bit like the Aquila crafted gear at level 30?

The Senator's gear (easy drop) is required for crafting Adept's gear which is superior to Senator's gear but not quite as good as Zeus' Gear. People will still farm but upgrading 2nd tier drops is a nice option for those who have had bad luck, don't like farming, find it hard to get teams or just want to keep questing.

Some of us will even farm more if the gear looks different because we want them for our mannequins!

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2412
The best way to make farming easier, in my mind, would be to remove the elite gear from big bosses and have them drop gear tokens instead. You would then take that token to a token vendor located outside of the dungeon where the boss is, and redeem it for whatever gear they offer that you want. How many times have we farmed for a hat, but gotten 3 boots instead? I would farm Darkmoore MORE if I could get the token and then get that elusive piece of gear. How many times have we farmed Waterworks and gotten repeat gear? I'm not saying to increase the drop rate, just change what gets dropped. It would still be a limited drop, but once you got the token, you could trade it for the item you want instead of getting a 4th or 5th copy of the item you already have. You could easily make the tokens to be reagents, and make the reagents specific to the boss. So have Darkmoor Token reagents, Waterwork Token reagents, Helephant Tower Token reagents, etc so that you can't cheat and take a Waterworks token and use it for Darkmoor.

That said, ANYTHING that makes getting that elite gear a little better is fine by me :)

Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
Fable Finder on Jun 24, 2018 wrote:
I said this:

There should also be an option of choosing a drop you want, but in order to have a guarantee of getting it you must complete the challenge of the drop's drop category additional times.
Yes, but its such a great suggestions, it worth mentioning twice! TWICE!

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
dayerider on Jun 25, 2018 wrote:
The best way to make farming easier, in my mind, would be to remove the elite gear from big bosses and have them drop gear tokens instead. You would then take that token to a token vendor located outside of the dungeon where the boss is, and redeem it for whatever gear they offer that you want. How many times have we farmed for a hat, but gotten 3 boots instead? I would farm Darkmoore MORE if I could get the token and then get that elusive piece of gear. How many times have we farmed Waterworks and gotten repeat gear? I'm not saying to increase the drop rate, just change what gets dropped. It would still be a limited drop, but once you got the token, you could trade it for the item you want instead of getting a 4th or 5th copy of the item you already have. You could easily make the tokens to be reagents, and make the reagents specific to the boss. So have Darkmoor Token reagents, Waterwork Token reagents, Helephant Tower Token reagents, etc so that you can't cheat and take a Waterworks token and use it for Darkmoor.

That said, ANYTHING that makes getting that elite gear a little better is fine by me :)
A better idea that is pretty similar (and I think this was what Victoria had in mind) is that there would be a currency called tokens. Every time you fight you would get tokens. All the dropped gear would be sold by token vendors, and each gear would have a certain token value. So the token system would be similar to the gold system, but the gear items could be priced high enough to reflect current drop rates. If KingsIsle wants you to fight certain bosses to buy certain gear, those gear items could require a badge as well as tokens, like the magic carpet mount sold by Advisor Francy Fries in Mirage (it costs a badge and ~60000 gold to get).

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
Tylerwildpants on Jun 25, 2018 wrote:
Yes, but its such a great suggestions, it worth mentioning twice! TWICE!
I disagree. It's worth mentioning three times: People who farm should be able to select the drop item they seek, or potentially even craft it.

Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
Fable Finder on Jun 26, 2018 wrote:
I disagree. It's worth mentioning three times: People who farm should be able to select the drop item they seek, or potentially even craft it.
I disagree. Three times isn't enough, because it's worth repeating until it becomes a wonderful reality. Being able to select drops is an awesome suggestion!

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2412
Fable Finder on Jun 26, 2018 wrote:
A better idea that is pretty similar (and I think this was what Victoria had in mind) is that there would be a currency called tokens. Every time you fight you would get tokens. All the dropped gear would be sold by token vendors, and each gear would have a certain token value. So the token system would be similar to the gold system, but the gear items could be priced high enough to reflect current drop rates. If KingsIsle wants you to fight certain bosses to buy certain gear, those gear items could require a badge as well as tokens, like the magic carpet mount sold by Advisor Francy Fries in Mirage (it costs a badge and ~60000 gold to get).
ANY idea, that limits the duplication of rare drops, is good. I would prefer it not to require a badge, but that's my opinion.

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
dayerider on Jun 26, 2018 wrote:
ANY idea, that limits the duplication of rare drops, is good. I would prefer it not to require a badge, but that's my opinion.
The only reason I said that is because to get certain gear you can only farm certain bosses. But with the token system, if you were patient enough, you could theoretically farm Rattlebones until you got enough tokens to buy Waterworks gear. However, this could be solved by Waterworks gear costing tokens as well as requiring a badge that would be earned upon finishing Waterworks.

Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
Fable Finder on Jun 29, 2018 wrote:
The only reason I said that is because to get certain gear you can only farm certain bosses. But with the token system, if you were patient enough, you could theoretically farm Rattlebones until you got enough tokens to buy Waterworks gear. However, this could be solved by Waterworks gear costing tokens as well as requiring a badge that would be earned upon finishing Waterworks.
You may be on to something.

A Token Vendor that buys and sells all the rare dungeon drops would be a welcome addition to the game.

It could easily work similar to Team Up Badges, or Faction Vendors in Mirage:
http://www.wizard101central.com/forums/showthread.php?476188-Mirage-Faction-Vendors-Guide

Team Badges are earned joining the Team Kiosk in Olde Town.

You help 100 teams to earn the Team Player Badge, which allows you to buy the Join a Team Kiosk from Derrick Blaze in Old Town

The Team Player Badge, also allows you to buy the Blaze's Garnet Cowl, Blaze's Garnet Robe, and Blaze's Garnet Boots, from Derrick

500 teams earn you the Team Leader Badge, which allows you to buy the Blaze Fox pet from Derrick.

1000 teams earns the Team Manager Badge, which allows you to buy the Sand Swarm mount from Derrick Blaze.

And 2000 teams for the Team Champion Badge, is simply listed here as the final badge in the series you may earn.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2412
Fable Finder on Jun 29, 2018 wrote:
The only reason I said that is because to get certain gear you can only farm certain bosses. But with the token system, if you were patient enough, you could theoretically farm Rattlebones until you got enough tokens to buy Waterworks gear. However, this could be solved by Waterworks gear costing tokens as well as requiring a badge that would be earned upon finishing Waterworks.
which is exactly what I suggested dungeon specific tokens. So you couldnt farm WW and have enough tokens for DM. You should have Dm tokens, WW tokens, Helephant tokens, etc.

Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
dayerider on Jun 30, 2018 wrote:
which is exactly what I suggested dungeon specific tokens. So you couldnt farm WW and have enough tokens for DM. You should have Dm tokens, WW tokens, Helephant tokens, etc.
Dayerider for President! Your suggestion is awesome! And everyone could buy and sell rare dungeon drops when they visit the mysterious Token Vendor, Larland Gant in his unusual antique shoppe located in the Shopping District (AKA - Leland Gaunt from the movie Needful Things).

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
dayerider on Jun 30, 2018 wrote:
which is exactly what I suggested dungeon specific tokens. So you couldnt farm WW and have enough tokens for DM. You should have Dm tokens, WW tokens, Helephant tokens, etc.
But this is too complex. That is why the badges idea works better. Imagine keeping track of the many, many, many different types of tokens.

Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
Fable Finder on Jul 3, 2018 wrote:
But this is too complex. That is why the badges idea works better. Imagine keeping track of the many, many, many different types of tokens.
Using tokens to acquire rare and unique dungeon dropped items is a valid and good suggestion. However, since badges are already tracked in the game, these can effectively be used for this purpose too. Faction Vendors function this way. After you earn certain badges, you gain access to specific items in their inventory: http://www.wizard101central.com/forums/showthread.php?476188-Mirage-Faction-Vendors-Guide. So this same idea can be expanded to existing or new Vendors who sell dungeon drops players want.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2412
Fable Finder on Jul 3, 2018 wrote:
But this is too complex. That is why the badges idea works better. Imagine keeping track of the many, many, many different types of tokens.
How is this too complex? You need tokens to get the items you want, but the tokens are dungeon specific. If they make it a reagent, there's nothing to keep track of. The reagent portion of the game will keep track of it FOR you. You just look up in your reagents and see Waterworks tokens and how many you have. You either have enough, or need more tokens to get the piece of gear you want. With tokens AND a badge requirement, it makes it MORE complex, and if you go with badges only, it's the same as my idea. Once you have the gear you want, you stop farming for tokens. Once you buy the gear, you use up all the tokens and thus have NOTHING to keep track of.

Historian
Jun 19, 2010
657
dayerider on Jul 3, 2018 wrote:
How is this too complex? You need tokens to get the items you want, but the tokens are dungeon specific. If they make it a reagent, there's nothing to keep track of. The reagent portion of the game will keep track of it FOR you. You just look up in your reagents and see Waterworks tokens and how many you have. You either have enough, or need more tokens to get the piece of gear you want. With tokens AND a badge requirement, it makes it MORE complex, and if you go with badges only, it's the same as my idea. Once you have the gear you want, you stop farming for tokens. Once you buy the gear, you use up all the tokens and thus have NOTHING to keep track of.
Players want rare items in dungeons without having to farm them forever. Your dungeon token idea is brilliant and works extremely well to serve this purpose. Players still have to complete a dungeon before they're earned. And your idea is very doable, because the game already tracks items and regents. Even shared banks store up to 999 of the same item. So I'm not sure why anyone would argue, or be against your dungeon token idea. And you're spot on, when you say once a player obtains the item they seek, it becomes a mute issue to farm for additional tokens. Tokens could easily be used to buy rare items through vendors. Faction Vendors function this way. Players earn specific badges in order to gain access to the vendor's inventory. So why not have players earn a set number of tokens or badges to gain access to rare dungeon drops items too. I love and support your idea very much!

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
Tylerwildpants on Jul 3, 2018 wrote:
Using tokens to acquire rare and unique dungeon dropped items is a valid and good suggestion. However, since badges are already tracked in the game, these can effectively be used for this purpose too. Faction Vendors function this way. After you earn certain badges, you gain access to specific items in their inventory: http://www.wizard101central.com/forums/showthread.php?476188-Mirage-Faction-Vendors-Guide. So this same idea can be expanded to existing or new Vendors who sell dungeon drops players want.
You misunderstand, I was simply saying having token types such as Wizard City tokens, Krokotopia tokens, etc... is too complex.

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
dayerider on Jul 3, 2018 wrote:
How is this too complex? You need tokens to get the items you want, but the tokens are dungeon specific. If they make it a reagent, there's nothing to keep track of. The reagent portion of the game will keep track of it FOR you. You just look up in your reagents and see Waterworks tokens and how many you have. You either have enough, or need more tokens to get the piece of gear you want. With tokens AND a badge requirement, it makes it MORE complex, and if you go with badges only, it's the same as my idea. Once you have the gear you want, you stop farming for tokens. Once you buy the gear, you use up all the tokens and thus have NOTHING to keep track of.
The game doesn't keep track of it for you, it simply tells you the quantity. But you have to remember the quantities, meaning you'll have to remember not only multiple different token types, but also their quantities. There is a lot of potential for confusion here.

Then imagine going to vendors. Wizard101 doesn't state the currency needed to purchase an item (because traditionally they've only had one currency), so you wouldn't know which drops require which tokens unless you had multiple vendors. And imagine all those vendors...

Also, because of the difficulty in programming (partially due to all the token types they'd need to create), it would have a similar issue to monstrology; at first not everyone would be compatible with tokens. If badges were used instead of different token types, a lot of badges exist already that can be used for tokens, so more enemies would be compatible.

Hero
Nov 22, 2015
798
Tylerwildpants on Jul 4, 2018 wrote:
Players want rare items in dungeons without having to farm them forever. Your dungeon token idea is brilliant and works extremely well to serve this purpose. Players still have to complete a dungeon before they're earned. And your idea is very doable, because the game already tracks items and regents. Even shared banks store up to 999 of the same item. So I'm not sure why anyone would argue, or be against your dungeon token idea. And you're spot on, when you say once a player obtains the item they seek, it becomes a mute issue to farm for additional tokens. Tokens could easily be used to buy rare items through vendors. Faction Vendors function this way. Players earn specific badges in order to gain access to the vendor's inventory. So why not have players earn a set number of tokens or badges to gain access to rare dungeon drops items too. I love and support your idea very much!
You misunderstood me. We both support the token idea but we differ on the implementation of the idea.

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