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Catch Of The Day is Underpowered

2
AuthorMessage
Mastermind
Jul 26, 2011
306
Mistyride on May 5, 2015 wrote:
I'm not a Storm player, so I'm probably not one to talk, and your point probably still stands, but I think we need to think about this.

1. Catch of the Day is an optional drop spell. It's not like it's a school spell and you had to wait 15 levels and go through Hades and back to get it.

2. Catch of the Day is essentially a slightly different version of Stormzilla that removes all positive charms. To compensate for this, it does less damage. Makes sense now, doesn't it?

-Laura Dreamgiver, Level 56 Theurgist
Exactly. Stormzilla is 130-146 dpp compared to Catch of the Day's 110-120 but since it has an effect I'd figure it would be a pretty balanced spell. This Catch of the Day thing seems like another "Catalan is underpowered" thing. Maybe Kingsisle should add that Enfeeble back plus a damage boost to about 600-650 damage?

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
Eric Stormbringer on May 5, 2015 wrote:
There are many ways to add innovative new features to the game. Changing the spell type to a double hit or DoT or even adding an entirely new mechanic such as done with Burning Rampage is innovative. Simply giving me a copy of abilities I already have from other spells while dropping the dpp below the established norms doesn't "spice things up"-simply creates a discrepancy.
That's like saying why give us Satyr when we already have Pixie., or Vampire when we already have Ghoul. I would argue that it's not a discrepancy but rather a different tool for a different situation. In this case it accomplishes the same as Leviathan with a lower pip cost and commensurate lesser damage but still the same side effect.
Bottom line - it is what it is. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
Mistyride on May 5, 2015 wrote:
I'm not a Storm player, so I'm probably not one to talk, and your point probably still stands, but I think we need to think about this.

1. Catch of the Day is an optional drop spell. It's not like it's a school spell and you had to wait 15 levels and go through Hades and back to get it.

2. Catch of the Day is essentially a slightly different version of Stormzilla that removes all positive charms. To compensate for this, it does less damage. Makes sense now, doesn't it?

-Laura Dreamgiver, Level 56 Theurgist
1. The other school's optional dropped spells wih an effect are given the effect AND a higher dpp.

2. It removes 2 positive charms not all positive charms. Normally I would agree with you but the Lore spells hav been established to not lose dpp for effect. Why is Catch of the Day not only losing dpp but becoming the lowest dpp storm spell in the game?

Survivor
May 12, 2009
9
Eric Stormbringer on May 5, 2015 wrote:
With all this perceived bias floating around it's a good thing this thread is based on sound math and verifiable fact. If you read the thread you would notice that this is far from equitable.
Considering you can get the spell at such a low level I think the spell is fine as is. You can't port into the new key bosses to get the other spells as early. Catch of the day also comes with an added effect compared to the other dropped spells at that level ( Goat Monk, Samoorai, ect) witch don't. I think in the end KI was comparing Catch of the day to the lower level dropped spells and NOT the loremaster spells. If this is the case then I think the spell is more than fair as is. If they were to up the damage they should take off the effect.

Also it seems to fall in line with sirens and levi in terms of having a little less damage for the effect of taking blades.

SO taking all that into consideration it may not follow your math trend. But considering the level you get it at and it follows the pattern of having a little less damage for taking blades like your other blade taking spells. I think it is ok as it is now.

If anyone should be complaining about their new spell it should be life.

Champion
Jun 26, 2009
415
Eric Stormbringer on May 5, 2015 wrote:
With all this perceived bias floating around it's a good thing this thread is based on sound math and verifiable fact. If you read the thread you would notice that this is far from equitable.
Im sure the developers are more then aware of the math and facts then anyone of us. Despite reasonable responses as to why it exists in it's current form, because it doesn't fit within the parameters of what you would find satisfactory based on past trends that you've collolated, it is flawed. So the bias is not some ethereal idea floating around it's clearly written for all to read.

Based on past trends life should have another AoE spell as the trend is every other school has two or even three. But it does not. No matter how much we complain, still nothing. You got what you got. That you don't like it is understandable but in the end you're going to have to accept it. It's a good spell and it's up to you if it's worth your time to use.

This I think is part of a bigger prorblem for Kingsisle. Because there is very little vareity in how to take down an ememy all we are used to is the next spell being a more powerful damage spell then the last damage spell. This trend feeds into the belief that we are being short changed when it's not.

And yes I know I mentioned life and this is a thread about catch of the day... and yes I did read the other posts. Just want to get that out of the way.

Champion
Jun 26, 2009
415
Renix3 on May 6, 2015 wrote:
Considering you can get the spell at such a low level I think the spell is fine as is. You can't port into the new key bosses to get the other spells as early. Catch of the day also comes with an added effect compared to the other dropped spells at that level ( Goat Monk, Samoorai, ect) witch don't. I think in the end KI was comparing Catch of the day to the lower level dropped spells and NOT the loremaster spells. If this is the case then I think the spell is more than fair as is. If they were to up the damage they should take off the effect.

Also it seems to fall in line with sirens and levi in terms of having a little less damage for the effect of taking blades.

SO taking all that into consideration it may not follow your math trend. But considering the level you get it at and it follows the pattern of having a little less damage for taking blades like your other blade taking spells. I think it is ok as it is now.

If anyone should be complaining about their new spell it should be life.
"If anyone should be complaining about their new spell it should be life."

Say it one more time!

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
TucsonWizard on May 6, 2015 wrote:
That's like saying why give us Satyr when we already have Pixie., or Vampire when we already have Ghoul. I would argue that it's not a discrepancy but rather a different tool for a different situation. In this case it accomplishes the same as Leviathan with a lower pip cost and commensurate lesser damage but still the same side effect.
Bottom line - it is what it is. We will just have to agree to disagree.
It is this lesser damage that is the very issue at hand.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
Mr Talon on May 6, 2015 wrote:
Im sure the developers are more then aware of the math and facts then anyone of us. Despite reasonable responses as to why it exists in it's current form, because it doesn't fit within the parameters of what you would find satisfactory based on past trends that you've collolated, it is flawed. So the bias is not some ethereal idea floating around it's clearly written for all to read.

Based on past trends life should have another AoE spell as the trend is every other school has two or even three. But it does not. No matter how much we complain, still nothing. You got what you got. That you don't like it is understandable but in the end you're going to have to accept it. It's a good spell and it's up to you if it's worth your time to use.

This I think is part of a bigger prorblem for Kingsisle. Because there is very little vareity in how to take down an ememy all we are used to is the next spell being a more powerful damage spell then the last damage spell. This trend feeds into the belief that we are being short changed when it's not.

And yes I know I mentioned life and this is a thread about catch of the day... and yes I did read the other posts. Just want to get that out of the way.
The developers probably are aware of the math but this isn't the first time and won't be the last when well developed player math has resulted in changed gameplay. Some examples:
-Spinysaur Buff
-Ice Collossus Buff
-Chimera Buff
In fact one of the most well documented recent buffs was the buff to the Lore spells. This was the result of many players(including yours truly) pointing out that Loremaster's power was far and away better than the other crafted spells. As a result the other Lore spells were buffed to become quasi-competitive with Loremaster. I agree the Life spell should have been an AoE. In fact I fought for as much in test realm: Life Spell feedback. In fact when it came to the Life AoE I did some of the mathematical analysis that would justify Sacred Charge as an AoE as seen here: Sacred Charge Debate.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
Renix3 on May 6, 2015 wrote:
Considering you can get the spell at such a low level I think the spell is fine as is. You can't port into the new key bosses to get the other spells as early. Catch of the day also comes with an added effect compared to the other dropped spells at that level ( Goat Monk, Samoorai, ect) witch don't. I think in the end KI was comparing Catch of the day to the lower level dropped spells and NOT the loremaster spells. If this is the case then I think the spell is more than fair as is. If they were to up the damage they should take off the effect.

Also it seems to fall in line with sirens and levi in terms of having a little less damage for the effect of taking blades.

SO taking all that into consideration it may not follow your math trend. But considering the level you get it at and it follows the pattern of having a little less damage for taking blades like your other blade taking spells. I think it is ok as it is now.

If anyone should be complaining about their new spell it should be life.
This is where the disagreement stems from:

a)From the Mooshu dropped spells we can establish that the spells deal above dpp

b)Blade Removal effects lower the dpp of a Spell

As both a Mooshu dropped spell AND a spell that removes blades it should thus be at neutral dpp. However it is at a dpp far below normal making it the weakest dpp Storm stable damage trained spell in the game.

As for the Life spell-see my reply to Mr Talon.

Delver
Mar 17, 2011
278
Eric Stormbringer on May 5, 2015 wrote:
1) Nice but irrelevant

2)No it is not

3)Yes-why should my farmed spell be weaker when other's farmed spells are not.
1 it is not irrelevant because it prove my point 1 spell that is a little under power is not a big deal i mean look at every spell in the game i sure you can fined at lest 1 that under power in another class

2 ya it is your complaining about a spell just like people complain storm dose not have enough health

3 because its a craft spell it can be weaker and as i said its a choice to craft it if you don't like it don't craft it i mean they give lots of junk to craft but is it always good no and as one of the people said it in a lower level zone so that means it going be a lower level spell.

so truthfully this topic well seem silly i mean there lots of other spells you can get and lets not forget most of storms spells are useful and compare to taunt for ice i got to say if anything needs updates is the spells that nobody really use's because well there just to useless because ice dose not want all the enemys on them and myth dose not always have time to kill there summons to heal i mean this spell fine its useful and dose damage what more could you want from it without making it op or a higher level spell?

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
sliver moon wolf on May 7, 2015 wrote:
1 it is not irrelevant because it prove my point 1 spell that is a little under power is not a big deal i mean look at every spell in the game i sure you can fined at lest 1 that under power in another class

2 ya it is your complaining about a spell just like people complain storm dose not have enough health

3 because its a craft spell it can be weaker and as i said its a choice to craft it if you don't like it don't craft it i mean they give lots of junk to craft but is it always good no and as one of the people said it in a lower level zone so that means it going be a lower level spell.

so truthfully this topic well seem silly i mean there lots of other spells you can get and lets not forget most of storms spells are useful and compare to taunt for ice i got to say if anything needs updates is the spells that nobody really use's because well there just to useless because ice dose not want all the enemys on them and myth dose not always have time to kill there summons to heal i mean this spell fine its useful and dose damage what more could you want from it without making it op or a higher level spell?
1)Other classes having underpowered spells deserve their own thread and their own appeals. Whether other classes have underpowered spells is irrelevant to this thread.

2)So this argument is comparable to the health argument because it's offering feedback? That's true but ultimately irreleant to this thread.

3)Actually the crafted/dropped spells follow the exact opposite trend. They are stronger pip for pip than the trained spells

Whether this topic is silly or not is your opinion. It is certainly not silly to me. Ice getting useless taunt spells is no different than storm getting useless pacify spells. The issue with this spell is it does less damage than it is supposed to and is out of trend with the other crafted/dropped spells. As for the low level acquisition-that argument doesn't fly with me because:

1)Any school at any lvl can get most of their dropped spells much easier than storm can get CoTD

2)Storm gains Triton at a lower lvl area than Stormzilla and Triton deals higher damage and has a higher dpp so the low level of acquisition argument falls completely flat.

Survivor
Oct 07, 2012
3
Eric Stormbringer on May 1, 2015 wrote:
Catch of the Day is the new storm spell that does an average of 575 for 5 pips. This is underpowered for several reasons:

-The dropped spells are at a higher dpp(damage per pip) even with an effect as shown by Loremaster and the recently buffed Lore spells
The game has consistently demonstrated that the dropped spells will have a higher dpp than expected for said school. Catch of the Day is an exception to the Rule having a dpp that is lower than the school's normal dpp for lvl.

-Even for a spell with an effect it is still underpowered. Storm's only other trained(not dropped) single target spell's with an effect are Leviathan and Artorious. Both have a dpp that is higher than Catch of the Day-a clear inconsistency.

Leviathan dpp-129 dpp

Artorious dpp-140 dpp

Catch of the Day dpp- 115

-Sacred Charge and Burning Rampage are above dpp
The new spells added for Life and Fire are at or Dpp for spell's of that type(excludes shadow spells which are a realm of their own).
Sacred Charge is 100 dpp- The strongest dpp of any single target non-DoT life spell in the game.
Burning Rampage-Tied with Fire Elf for highest dpp single target hit in the fire school.

-Catch of the Day is the worst dpp single target storm spell in the game outside of low-mid end wildbolts
At 115 dpp Catch of the Day is Storm's worst spell per dpp outside of low and mid wild-bolt. This means that storm's dropped spell follows the exact opposite of established trends. Instead of being above dpp as established for dropped spells-Catch of the Day is the lowest dpp spell in Storm's arsenal.

Suggestions:
-Lower the pip cost to 4- This would allow the spell to follow current trends of dropped spells being better on average.

OR

-Increase the damage to Stormzilla-esque levels- We have established from Catalan and other Lore spells that damage from the crafted/dropped spells is higher In keeping with that principle Catch of the Day's damage should be somewhere around Catalan's damage(700) or Stormzilla's(690).
Catch of the day is a an over powered spell actually. Catch of the day does about as much as much as kraken, but it has an enfeeble added to it. enfeeble is 3 pips, kraken is 4 pips. 3+4=7, so it should be seven pips. If that has not convinced you yet, than think about the fact that you actually don't waste a round using kraken and then enfeeble and instead use both in one round! Also, enfeeble isn't received until Avalon, so how come people in mooshu have it! it's crazy how op that spell is! Catch of the day is actually stronger than Burning Rampage for now because burning rampage is glitched. The second hit of it does not add the boost of blades, i tested it so i know.
Catch of the day is OP!

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
yoan480 on May 7, 2015 wrote:
Catch of the day is a an over powered spell actually. Catch of the day does about as much as much as kraken, but it has an enfeeble added to it. enfeeble is 3 pips, kraken is 4 pips. 3+4=7, so it should be seven pips. If that has not convinced you yet, than think about the fact that you actually don't waste a round using kraken and then enfeeble and instead use both in one round! Also, enfeeble isn't received until Avalon, so how come people in mooshu have it! it's crazy how op that spell is! Catch of the day is actually stronger than Burning Rampage for now because burning rampage is glitched. The second hit of it does not add the boost of blades, i tested it so i know.
Catch of the day is OP!
Actually, no, it's not an Enfeeble effect. If it were an Enfeeble effect--that removes all blades--maybe you'd have a point. Catch of the Day only removes 2 blades. (It was changed to a 2-blade removal when it went to live realm.)

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
yoan480 on May 7, 2015 wrote:
Catch of the day is a an over powered spell actually. Catch of the day does about as much as much as kraken, but it has an enfeeble added to it. enfeeble is 3 pips, kraken is 4 pips. 3+4=7, so it should be seven pips. If that has not convinced you yet, than think about the fact that you actually don't waste a round using kraken and then enfeeble and instead use both in one round! Also, enfeeble isn't received until Avalon, so how come people in mooshu have it! it's crazy how op that spell is! Catch of the day is actually stronger than Burning Rampage for now because burning rampage is glitched. The second hit of it does not add the boost of blades, i tested it so i know.
Catch of the day is OP!
a) It removes 2 blades not enfeeble

b)It costs a pip more than Kraken

c)Spells with effects don't correspond to pip costs of standalone spells. Efreet has a 3 pip -90% weakness with it's damage-should it be 11 pips? Gnomes has two 2 pip dispels-should it cost 13 pips?

Survivor
Oct 07, 2012
3
Eric Stormbringer on May 8, 2015 wrote:
a) It removes 2 blades not enfeeble

b)It costs a pip more than Kraken

c)Spells with effects don't correspond to pip costs of standalone spells. Efreet has a 3 pip -90% weakness with it's damage-should it be 11 pips? Gnomes has two 2 pip dispels-should it cost 13 pips?
Okay i didn't realize they debuffed it, sorry.
A) I agree that efreet and gnomes are over powered just like catch of the day.
B) ok it costs 1 pip more but wouldn't you agree that you actually save a round!
C) even if catch of the day isn't over powered, it's definitely not under powered just like efreet and gnomes.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2226
Eric Stormbringer on May 8, 2015 wrote:
a) It removes 2 blades not enfeeble

b)It costs a pip more than Kraken

c)Spells with effects don't correspond to pip costs of standalone spells. Efreet has a 3 pip -90% weakness with it's damage-should it be 11 pips? Gnomes has two 2 pip dispels-should it cost 13 pips?
to point "c", you could argue that Efreet should be a 14 pip spell. how? Simple:

8 pips for the Damage of spell for efreet damage
6 for bad juju since it's an off school spell (BJJ is a death spell that costs 3 pips, does 300 damage, THEN casts the weakness on the enemy).

This is why spells should use IN-HOUSE extras (like Gnomes does) instead of off school extras. However, im unintentionally hijacking the thread.

To get back onto the point, I agree tho that spells with after effects work differently

2