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Catch Of The Day is Underpowered

1
AuthorMessage
Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
Catch of the Day is the new storm spell that does an average of 575 for 5 pips. This is underpowered for several reasons:

-The dropped spells are at a higher dpp(damage per pip) even with an effect as shown by Loremaster and the recently buffed Lore spells
The game has consistently demonstrated that the dropped spells will have a higher dpp than expected for said school. Catch of the Day is an exception to the Rule having a dpp that is lower than the school's normal dpp for lvl.

-Even for a spell with an effect it is still underpowered. Storm's only other trained(not dropped) single target spell's with an effect are Leviathan and Artorious. Both have a dpp that is higher than Catch of the Day-a clear inconsistency.

Leviathan dpp-129 dpp

Artorious dpp-140 dpp

Catch of the Day dpp- 115

-Sacred Charge and Burning Rampage are above dpp
The new spells added for Life and Fire are at or Dpp for spell's of that type(excludes shadow spells which are a realm of their own).
Sacred Charge is 100 dpp- The strongest dpp of any single target non-DoT life spell in the game.
Burning Rampage-Tied with Fire Elf for highest dpp single target hit in the fire school.

-Catch of the Day is the worst dpp single target storm spell in the game outside of low-mid end wildbolts
At 115 dpp Catch of the Day is Storm's worst spell per dpp outside of low and mid wild-bolt. This means that storm's dropped spell follows the exact opposite of established trends. Instead of being above dpp as established for dropped spells-Catch of the Day is the lowest dpp spell in Storm's arsenal.

Suggestions:
-Lower the pip cost to 4- This would allow the spell to follow current trends of dropped spells being better on average.

OR

-Increase the damage to Stormzilla-esque levels- We have established from Catalan and other Lore spells that damage from the crafted/dropped spells is higher In keeping with that principle Catch of the Day's damage should be somewhere around Catalan's damage(700) or Stormzilla's(690).

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to come off as a Storm hater because I'm not, but....

Wow, it's a 180-degree turn to see someone complain about a Storm spell being underpowered. No offense but it's about time! Using your dpp example, it's still more powerful than all of the 5-pip dropped spells that were previously available with the exception of Catalan which is, oh yeah, a Storm spell.

adpp=average damage per pip

Goat Monk = adpp 96
Lord of Night = adpp 88
Handsome Fomori = adpp 98
Ninja Pigs = adpp 128
Samoorai = adpp 100
Winter Moon = adpp 99
Savage Paw - adpp 100

The above mentioned Catalan had the highest adpp of all with 140.

With all due respect, in the grand scheme of things we're talking about a few points of damage here and in all of the time I've been playing I bet I could count on one hand the number of times a Storm wizard used anything but Tempest, Storm Lord or Leviathan. And not to forget the vastly overpowered Glowbug Squall.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
You are correct. Even though there is an addition of a 2-charm removal effect, it does not justify the decrease in damage per pip. The damage should be raised to levels between Stormzilla and Catalan.

A lot of people superficially pass judgement on Storm and have a knee-jerk reaction to anything suggested to favor them, but I appreciate that you take the time to do some math, and demonstrate that something fishy is going on.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
TucsonWizard on May 1, 2015 wrote:
Don't take this wrong, I don't mean to come off as a Storm hater because I'm not, but....

Wow, it's a 180-degree turn to see someone complain about a Storm spell being underpowered. No offense but it's about time! Using your dpp example, it's still more powerful than all of the 5-pip dropped spells that were previously available with the exception of Catalan which is, oh yeah, a Storm spell.

adpp=average damage per pip

Goat Monk = adpp 96
Lord of Night = adpp 88
Handsome Fomori = adpp 98
Ninja Pigs = adpp 128
Samoorai = adpp 100
Winter Moon = adpp 99
Savage Paw - adpp 100

The above mentioned Catalan had the highest adpp of all with 140.

With all due respect, in the grand scheme of things we're talking about a few points of damage here and in all of the time I've been playing I bet I could count on one hand the number of times a Storm wizard used anything but Tempest, Storm Lord or Leviathan. And not to forget the vastly overpowered Glowbug Squall.
Using my numbers you would see why this is a discrepancy. I PvP where Storm's use a vast variety of spells far beyond your typical set that you labeled. You don't want to come off as a storm hater but your argument pretty much boils down to-"about time storm was under powered". In the grand scheme of things it is still a storm spell that is dealing significantly lower dpp in clear defiance of both storm's typical dpp and the trends established by the lore spells.

Delver
Mar 17, 2011
278
Um truthfully to me it dose not matter ps i am a storm so i know how hard it is and so on

1 storm already gets so many powerful spell what wrong with having one week spell look at ice it gets 3 taunts like not even joking and there all worthless because you don't want the monster all on you and the enemy not going hit you because of them so storm having 1 bad spell is nothing to complain about truthfully

2 people do complain about storm a lot that's why so many disagree it not because storm op or mp its because if lets say you give storm to much health they become op because people already have a hard time killing because the storm can hit so hard if they have more health it basic makes storm to hard to beat because most school would have to blade stack to kill the storm

and if you really look at most topics they make good points like storm power levels there getting a little out cantorl or storms health rate if they get to much well there going be to hard to kill because there spells are so strong and some of there spell do need to be no longer in pvp because some as you level up only get strong with you gear boost and you enhance and blades and ect i mean it wouldn't hurt for a storm to be able to get a little more resistance but i have to say keep there health as it is there power needs a little adjust and that's it

but complaining about a spell truthfully look at the other class each one has at lest 1 useless spell ice has 3 useless spells unless your wanting the enemy to kill you and so what if it week it just 1 spell none of the craft spell are even that strong in the first place.

so i think leave it the same because there no point in changing it

Mastermind
Nov 19, 2014
365
Eric Stormbringer on May 1, 2015 wrote:
Catch of the Day is the new storm spell that does an average of 575 for 5 pips. This is underpowered for several reasons:

-The dropped spells are at a higher dpp(damage per pip) even with an effect as shown by Loremaster and the recently buffed Lore spells
The game has consistently demonstrated that the dropped spells will have a higher dpp than expected for said school. Catch of the Day is an exception to the Rule having a dpp that is lower than the school's normal dpp for lvl.

-Even for a spell with an effect it is still underpowered. Storm's only other trained(not dropped) single target spell's with an effect are Leviathan and Artorious. Both have a dpp that is higher than Catch of the Day-a clear inconsistency.

Leviathan dpp-129 dpp

Artorious dpp-140 dpp

Catch of the Day dpp- 115

-Sacred Charge and Burning Rampage are above dpp
The new spells added for Life and Fire are at or Dpp for spell's of that type(excludes shadow spells which are a realm of their own).
Sacred Charge is 100 dpp- The strongest dpp of any single target non-DoT life spell in the game.
Burning Rampage-Tied with Fire Elf for highest dpp single target hit in the fire school.

-Catch of the Day is the worst dpp single target storm spell in the game outside of low-mid end wildbolts
At 115 dpp Catch of the Day is Storm's worst spell per dpp outside of low and mid wild-bolt. This means that storm's dropped spell follows the exact opposite of established trends. Instead of being above dpp as established for dropped spells-Catch of the Day is the lowest dpp spell in Storm's arsenal.

Suggestions:
-Lower the pip cost to 4- This would allow the spell to follow current trends of dropped spells being better on average.

OR

-Increase the damage to Stormzilla-esque levels- We have established from Catalan and other Lore spells that damage from the crafted/dropped spells is higher In keeping with that principle Catch of the Day's damage should be somewhere around Catalan's damage(700) or Stormzilla's(690).
disagree (spell just find) mostly powerful school in the planet then others school! overpower critical, damage, armor pierce (wouldn't need be nerf) just do more damage better then kraken because kraken doesn't have effect but both nearly same damage!

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
sliver moon wolf on May 2, 2015 wrote:
Um truthfully to me it dose not matter ps i am a storm so i know how hard it is and so on

1 storm already gets so many powerful spell what wrong with having one week spell look at ice it gets 3 taunts like not even joking and there all worthless because you don't want the monster all on you and the enemy not going hit you because of them so storm having 1 bad spell is nothing to complain about truthfully

2 people do complain about storm a lot that's why so many disagree it not because storm op or mp its because if lets say you give storm to much health they become op because people already have a hard time killing because the storm can hit so hard if they have more health it basic makes storm to hard to beat because most school would have to blade stack to kill the storm

and if you really look at most topics they make good points like storm power levels there getting a little out cantorl or storms health rate if they get to much well there going be to hard to kill because there spells are so strong and some of there spell do need to be no longer in pvp because some as you level up only get strong with you gear boost and you enhance and blades and ect i mean it wouldn't hurt for a storm to be able to get a little more resistance but i have to say keep there health as it is there power needs a little adjust and that's it

but complaining about a spell truthfully look at the other class each one has at lest 1 useless spell ice has 3 useless spells unless your wanting the enemy to kill you and so what if it week it just 1 spell none of the craft spell are even that strong in the first place.

so i think leave it the same because there no point in changing it
1) Simply because storm gets powerful spells does not mean a clear discrepancy can be allowed to stand. The Ice Colossus spell once had a clear discrepancy in it's dpp and was buffed accordingly. This should be no different. Storm gets the useless line of pacify just as ice gets the useless line of Taunt.

2)This thread has nothing to do with buffing storm's health.

3) The point is this spell is a hard to acquire dropped spell that is in clear defiance of established precedent. I would expect it to be corrected as such.

Delver
Mar 17, 2011
278
Eric Stormbringer on May 3, 2015 wrote:
1) Simply because storm gets powerful spells does not mean a clear discrepancy can be allowed to stand. The Ice Colossus spell once had a clear discrepancy in it's dpp and was buffed accordingly. This should be no different. Storm gets the useless line of pacify just as ice gets the useless line of Taunt.

2)This thread has nothing to do with buffing storm's health.

3) The point is this spell is a hard to acquire dropped spell that is in clear defiance of established precedent. I would expect it to be corrected as such.
1 truthfully it can because it not a main school spell and some of the ice spell and myth spell are under power but you don't see people complaining about that

2 i said the health thing because this topic is just like that

3 it's a choice to farm for it and you get lots of other useless junk in there also you could just craft if you want it that bad so it not a hard spell to get

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2226
Let's ignore DPP for a moment and look at WHERE you can get the spell at. Storm's new 5 pip spell can be gotten in Mooshu, which is earlier than any of the other new droppable spells. Could you imagine having to farm a rank 10 dungeon for a rank 5 spell like life has to? or even having to wait till Avalon to farm for the fire one? In this case, storm's damage is fine because you can get it soo much earlier in the game than the other two.

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
Eric Stormbringer on May 1, 2015 wrote:
Using my numbers you would see why this is a discrepancy. I PvP where Storm's use a vast variety of spells far beyond your typical set that you labeled. You don't want to come off as a storm hater but your argument pretty much boils down to-"about time storm was under powered". In the grand scheme of things it is still a storm spell that is dealing significantly lower dpp in clear defiance of both storm's typical dpp and the trends established by the lore spells.
I did use your numbers, and even though Catch of the Day is less powerful than Catalan the only dropped/crafted spell more powerful is Ninja Pigs which comes with no effects. Effects aside, the only disadvantage it has compared to Ninja Pigs is a 5% reduced accuracy rating but that's commensurate with most Storm spells. You're correct in defining my argument as being "about time storm was under powered" but hey, that's Storm's niche. They are the most powerful school when it comes to dealing damage. I accept that but it doesn't mean I hate it. Any more than I hate a Life opponent because they keep healing or a Death opponent because they keep stealing my health.
I guess what it boils down to is that Catch of the Day is a tool you don't have to use. You have many other alternatives available to you but it's there if you want to deal less (but still substantial) damage but remove some positives in the process.
A small sacrifice in my opinion.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
I'm seeing a lot of irrelevant, opinion-based points being brought up.
  • It doesn't matter what opinion you have of the Storm school's damage in general.
  • It doesn't matter what level the spell is introduced.
  • It doesn't matter whether there are other "useless spells" out there, this thread isn't about those.

Fact: "Catch of the Day" spell damage levels are lower than the damage levels dealt by other Storm spells. Therefore, damage needs to be higher.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2226
Lucas Rain on May 4, 2015 wrote:
I'm seeing a lot of irrelevant, opinion-based points being brought up.
  • It doesn't matter what opinion you have of the Storm school's damage in general.
  • It doesn't matter what level the spell is introduced.
  • It doesn't matter whether there are other "useless spells" out there, this thread isn't about those.

Fact: "Catch of the Day" spell damage levels are lower than the damage levels dealt by other Storm spells. Therefore, damage needs to be higher.
well, until we know WHY the damage is less per pip, they're all relevant thoughts. Just because they stray from the DPP initially mentioned, doesnt make them invalid. only KI knows why they did the damage the way they did, and since none of us works for them, we wont know till:

1) they tell us
2) change it

Until either of those happen, you and I both know people will comment their opinions because they, you, and I, have no fact to go off of as to why the damage is what it is.

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
dayerider on May 4, 2015 wrote:
well, until we know WHY the damage is less per pip, they're all relevant thoughts. Just because they stray from the DPP initially mentioned, doesnt make them invalid. only KI knows why they did the damage the way they did, and since none of us works for them, we wont know till:

1) they tell us
2) change it

Until either of those happen, you and I both know people will comment their opinions because they, you, and I, have no fact to go off of as to why the damage is what it is.
Exactly. And the fact is, the relative strength or weakness of any spell shouldn't always be based solely on the damage it does. This is especially true of multi-purpose spells like Catch of the Day that have residual effects. Sometimes the strongest (read best) spell for the job is one that accomplishes more than one thing. One has to sometimes consider the pros and cons... is it worth 5-pips to remove a Tower Shield AND some blades, as well as deal a little bonus damage? Similar to a spell like Earthquake which doesn't do a lot of base damage but the residual effects can be well worth it in the long run.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
sliver moon wolf on May 4, 2015 wrote:
1 truthfully it can because it not a main school spell and some of the ice spell and myth spell are under power but you don't see people complaining about that

2 i said the health thing because this topic is just like that

3 it's a choice to farm for it and you get lots of other useless junk in there also you could just craft if you want it that bad so it not a hard spell to get
1) Nice but irrelevant

2)No it is not

3)Yes-why should my farmed spell be weaker when other's farmed spells are not.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
dayerider on May 4, 2015 wrote:
Let's ignore DPP for a moment and look at WHERE you can get the spell at. Storm's new 5 pip spell can be gotten in Mooshu, which is earlier than any of the other new droppable spells. Could you imagine having to farm a rank 10 dungeon for a rank 5 spell like life has to? or even having to wait till Avalon to farm for the fire one? In this case, storm's damage is fine because you can get it soo much earlier in the game than the other two.
That is true but any of the new dropped spells other than Life's is acquired simply by porting to your friend. In fact almost all of the Lore spells are even more easily acquired since they are in an open dungeon that anyone can port to and does not require an access point. I'm not sure what ease of access has to do with a spell's dpp.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
TucsonWizard on May 4, 2015 wrote:
I did use your numbers, and even though Catch of the Day is less powerful than Catalan the only dropped/crafted spell more powerful is Ninja Pigs which comes with no effects. Effects aside, the only disadvantage it has compared to Ninja Pigs is a 5% reduced accuracy rating but that's commensurate with most Storm spells. You're correct in defining my argument as being "about time storm was under powered" but hey, that's Storm's niche. They are the most powerful school when it comes to dealing damage. I accept that but it doesn't mean I hate it. Any more than I hate a Life opponent because they keep healing or a Death opponent because they keep stealing my health.
I guess what it boils down to is that Catch of the Day is a tool you don't have to use. You have many other alternatives available to you but it's there if you want to deal less (but still substantial) damage but remove some positives in the process.
A small sacrifice in my opinion.
Correct that is Storm's niche-dealing higher damage. Therin lies the problem- Storm is getting a spell that is dealing less damage than it is supposed to. Compare the other lore spells with effects to their respective classes average damage. In most cases the dropped spells have an increased dpp AND an effect. Why is it alright for storm to be different? Because it is an optional spell? Unacceptable.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
TucsonWizard on May 4, 2015 wrote:
Exactly. And the fact is, the relative strength or weakness of any spell shouldn't always be based solely on the damage it does. This is especially true of multi-purpose spells like Catch of the Day that have residual effects. Sometimes the strongest (read best) spell for the job is one that accomplishes more than one thing. One has to sometimes consider the pros and cons... is it worth 5-pips to remove a Tower Shield AND some blades, as well as deal a little bonus damage? Similar to a spell like Earthquake which doesn't do a lot of base damage but the residual effects can be well worth it in the long run.
Correct- However the trend established with the Lore spells is that they do above/at dpp AND impart an effect....except for Catch of the Day. Here are some examples:

Loremaster-Above dpp and effect
Lord of Night-Above dpp and effect
Burning Revenant-Above dpp and effect
Wintermoon- Above dpp and effect

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
Eric Stormbringer on May 5, 2015 wrote:
Correct- However the trend established with the Lore spells is that they do above/at dpp AND impart an effect....except for Catch of the Day. Here are some examples:

Loremaster-Above dpp and effect
Lord of Night-Above dpp and effect
Burning Revenant-Above dpp and effect
Wintermoon- Above dpp and effect
"Trend" is highly overrated. Why does innovation have to follow what's assumed to be the norm? In doing so we get an endless stream of cookie-cutter spells. Why bother? Did you ever consider that KI's intent might be to spice thing up a little bit? It only makes sense. Adding some variety makes the game more attractive for everyone in the long run.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
TucsonWizard on May 5, 2015 wrote:
"Trend" is highly overrated. Why does innovation have to follow what's assumed to be the norm? In doing so we get an endless stream of cookie-cutter spells. Why bother? Did you ever consider that KI's intent might be to spice thing up a little bit? It only makes sense. Adding some variety makes the game more attractive for everyone in the long run.
Why bother? Because Storm gets less than before, less than other schools. That's not right.

Variety is good, but we can't pretend equity doesn't matter.

Champion
Jun 26, 2009
415
Where storm is concerned over the years, it has definitely not been free from favortism. Or the bias from many a wizard who plays a storm. Equity seems about fair with the release of this new spell.

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2226
Lucas Rain on May 5, 2015 wrote:
Why bother? Because Storm gets less than before, less than other schools. That's not right.

Variety is good, but we can't pretend equity doesn't matter.
don't get me started on equality of spells and their effects

Survivor
Aug 11, 2012
28
I'm not a Storm player, so I'm probably not one to talk, and your point probably still stands, but I think we need to think about this.

1. Catch of the Day is an optional drop spell. It's not like it's a school spell and you had to wait 15 levels and go through Hades and back to get it.

2. Catch of the Day is essentially a slightly different version of Stormzilla that removes all positive charms. To compensate for this, it does less damage. Makes sense now, doesn't it?

-Laura Dreamgiver, Level 56 Theurgist

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
dayerider on May 5, 2015 wrote:
don't get me started on equality of spells and their effects
Equity, not equality. Equity refers to fairness, making sure what everyone is given enough, whereas equality would be giving everyone the same thing.

If Catch of the Day is a Storm spell and Storm spells' fairness is based on damage, then removing damage is unfair. We can see, factually, that damage is lower than it should be. Therefore, it's unfair. The solution is to revise to higher damage.

You're absolutely welcome to make a case for inequities in other spells in another thread. I'll probably support you there. However, this thread is about Catch of the Day.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
TucsonWizard on May 5, 2015 wrote:
"Trend" is highly overrated. Why does innovation have to follow what's assumed to be the norm? In doing so we get an endless stream of cookie-cutter spells. Why bother? Did you ever consider that KI's intent might be to spice thing up a little bit? It only makes sense. Adding some variety makes the game more attractive for everyone in the long run.
There are many ways to add innovative new features to the game. Changing the spell type to a double hit or DoT or even adding an entirely new mechanic such as done with Burning Rampage is innovative. Simply giving me a copy of abilities I already have from other spells while dropping the dpp below the established norms doesn't "spice things up"-simply creates a discrepancy.

Astrologist
Dec 16, 2009
1025
Mr Talon on May 5, 2015 wrote:
Where storm is concerned over the years, it has definitely not been free from favortism. Or the bias from many a wizard who plays a storm. Equity seems about fair with the release of this new spell.
With all this perceived bias floating around it's a good thing this thread is based on sound math and verifiable fact. If you read the thread you would notice that this is far from equitable.

1