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Boss Tokens for Gear

AuthorMessage
Explorer
Jul 04, 2015
92
hello fellow wizards!

I had an idea regarding stray pieces of gear.
Wouldn't it be nice if the Bosses of a dungeon dropped a token?

Let's say you've been farming for Darkmoor gear, each of the bosses would drop something called the Darkmoor Token of Bravery. Accumulating certain amounts of these allows you to visit a vendor and exchange these tokens for pieces of Darkmoor gear, maybe 30 for each clothing item (hat, robe, boots), 25 for auxiliary items (necklace, ring, athame) and 45 tokens for the wand.

This system doesn't take too much away from the RNG drops that the game is known for and would also make completing sets a little tiny bit more attainable.

Would be applicable to other dungeons too, Waterworks Token of Bravery, Mount Olympus Token of Bravery, etc.

What do you guys think?
Pros? Cons?

Thanks for reading

Survivor
Aug 25, 2013
27
SpectreZero on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
hello fellow wizards!

I had an idea regarding stray pieces of gear.
Wouldn't it be nice if the Bosses of a dungeon dropped a token?

Let's say you've been farming for Darkmoor gear, each of the bosses would drop something called the Darkmoor Token of Bravery. Accumulating certain amounts of these allows you to visit a vendor and exchange these tokens for pieces of Darkmoor gear, maybe 30 for each clothing item (hat, robe, boots), 25 for auxiliary items (necklace, ring, athame) and 45 tokens for the wand.

This system doesn't take too much away from the RNG drops that the game is known for and would also make completing sets a little tiny bit more attainable.

Would be applicable to other dungeons too, Waterworks Token of Bravery, Mount Olympus Token of Bravery, etc.

What do you guys think?
Pros? Cons?

Thanks for reading
Seems like a wonderful idea, it cuts grinding for months however a few problems
1. some bosses like the last boss of arc 2 drops a really nice necklace (like REALLY good) but its no dungeon its just her, maybe not all bosses In darkmoor should drop 1 maybe some one like sir black water shane and mal should drop them. But otherwise great idea

Explorer
May 25, 2013
69
SpectreZero on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
hello fellow wizards!

I had an idea regarding stray pieces of gear.
Wouldn't it be nice if the Bosses of a dungeon dropped a token?

Let's say you've been farming for Darkmoor gear, each of the bosses would drop something called the Darkmoor Token of Bravery. Accumulating certain amounts of these allows you to visit a vendor and exchange these tokens for pieces of Darkmoor gear, maybe 30 for each clothing item (hat, robe, boots), 25 for auxiliary items (necklace, ring, athame) and 45 tokens for the wand.

This system doesn't take too much away from the RNG drops that the game is known for and would also make completing sets a little tiny bit more attainable.

Would be applicable to other dungeons too, Waterworks Token of Bravery, Mount Olympus Token of Bravery, etc.

What do you guys think?
Pros? Cons?

Thanks for reading
Clicking on this thread I thought I would see a complain note or some new drop thing that really doesn't need to exist, but I really like this idea. I have a feeling exalted wizards would agree with that Darkmoor part. ( I haven't been there, but I've seen Dr Von's pure hatred toward Darkmoor RNG and RoboShane as well as lots of flame threads toward the challenge to drop ratio.)
But yeah, really great idea for those of us with really bad luck.

Nicholas Lifeblade Archmage
Nicholas Stormblade adept

Defender
Jun 17, 2012
147
SpectreZero on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
hello fellow wizards!

I had an idea regarding stray pieces of gear.
Wouldn't it be nice if the Bosses of a dungeon dropped a token?

Let's say you've been farming for Darkmoor gear, each of the bosses would drop something called the Darkmoor Token of Bravery. Accumulating certain amounts of these allows you to visit a vendor and exchange these tokens for pieces of Darkmoor gear, maybe 30 for each clothing item (hat, robe, boots), 25 for auxiliary items (necklace, ring, athame) and 45 tokens for the wand.

This system doesn't take too much away from the RNG drops that the game is known for and would also make completing sets a little tiny bit more attainable.

Would be applicable to other dungeons too, Waterworks Token of Bravery, Mount Olympus Token of Bravery, etc.

What do you guys think?
Pros? Cons?

Thanks for reading
sounds great. It sounds a lot like the system they used in destiny, but with strange coins.

exalted
legendary
master

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
It has been done before in other games, and it is a good idea. It would prevent people from giving up in utter hopelessness when the item they want never drops. Indeed it is statistically possible for an item to actually never drop for a player if the drop rate is low enough. Game rolls a couple of dice but it never rolls that item you need, well never for you anyway.
At least this way you have a reason to press on, because you will eventually get the item from the tokens.

That being said it will have to take a lot of tokens before you should be able to buy some of the unique gear. Token cost should reflect drop rate. It takes some people well over fifty battles to get their drop currently and the token cost should be on par with that. No shortcuts, unless you count throwing crowns into the boss chest as a shortcut. None of the token purchasable items should be crown shop items or wrenches.

The token vendor could stand outside the dungeon and people could browse hiserit's shop and decide if they want to run the dungeon for the gear, instead of having to look on another site to see if the dungeon has any boss uniques that they may want. You may even have a regional token vendor for all of the non dungeon bosses in a world, again scaling token cost with the drop rate of each item.

Of course this does mean that we will have yet another reagent/materials tab to hold token items that will all be no auction and no trade.

Delver
Mar 13, 2010
299
Zebulous Newt on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
It has been done before in other games, and it is a good idea. It would prevent people from giving up in utter hopelessness when the item they want never drops. Indeed it is statistically possible for an item to actually never drop for a player if the drop rate is low enough. Game rolls a couple of dice but it never rolls that item you need, well never for you anyway.
At least this way you have a reason to press on, because you will eventually get the item from the tokens.

That being said it will have to take a lot of tokens before you should be able to buy some of the unique gear. Token cost should reflect drop rate. It takes some people well over fifty battles to get their drop currently and the token cost should be on par with that. No shortcuts, unless you count throwing crowns into the boss chest as a shortcut. None of the token purchasable items should be crown shop items or wrenches.

The token vendor could stand outside the dungeon and people could browse hiserit's shop and decide if they want to run the dungeon for the gear, instead of having to look on another site to see if the dungeon has any boss uniques that they may want. You may even have a regional token vendor for all of the non dungeon bosses in a world, again scaling token cost with the drop rate of each item.

Of course this does mean that we will have yet another reagent/materials tab to hold token items that will all be no auction and no trade.
I'm all for something like this.

Everyone can eventually get gear, any piece or pieces they need. They still have to play the bosses who drop it, but they know that they will eventually get what they want if it's not surprise dropped before that.

I'm also for the drop rates for some of these high-demand drop bosses and dungeons to be raised. Not to 50% or 100%, but to at least 5%, 10%, even 20%.

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
I think this could be a good idea...
But - we've all seen the posts from people who complain about the time it takes to get that special drop. If something like this were to be implemented I can't wait to see the complaints from the folks who have almost enough "tokens" to get what they want and then -boom- there's the drop they've been waiting for. "What am I supposed to do with these tokens now? KI should give me something for all of my efforts". You know it will happen!

Delver
Mar 13, 2010
299
TucsonWizard on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
I think this could be a good idea...
But - we've all seen the posts from people who complain about the time it takes to get that special drop. If something like this were to be implemented I can't wait to see the complaints from the folks who have almost enough "tokens" to get what they want and then -boom- there's the drop they've been waiting for. "What am I supposed to do with these tokens now? KI should give me something for all of my efforts". You know it will happen!
Didnt actually think about this - and even if it doesn't happen elsewhere, you're right it WILL happen in W101.

Explorer
Jul 04, 2015
92
TucsonWizard on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
I think this could be a good idea...
But - we've all seen the posts from people who complain about the time it takes to get that special drop. If something like this were to be implemented I can't wait to see the complaints from the folks who have almost enough "tokens" to get what they want and then -boom- there's the drop they've been waiting for. "What am I supposed to do with these tokens now? KI should give me something for all of my efforts". You know it will happen!
That can be solved, just like any unwanted items, there's the Trash button or the Feed Pet or even Quick sold for a little gold.
...although I had envisioned they be treated a bit more like Arena Tickets in their own "currency" page/tab (since it's tokens per major dungeon) so they don't take up any inventory space!

Explorer
Jul 04, 2015
92
Thanks for the feedback guys, they've been productive.
Let's keep 'em coming

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
Ah, two tokens away from getting your robe, and the robe drops? None of the other bosses in the dungeon drop an equip, housing item, or seed that you want either? Then fortunately for you, the dungeon merchant sells allof the non crown items dropped by each boss in the dungeon. In short: consumables
Rare reagents, gem crafting metals, pet snacks... treasure cards, ect. Once again the prices reflect the drop rates of each item from their respective bosses.

What?! your pet is perfect? you don't need any crafting materials whatsoever? Your house is flawless? You swore off of gardening? Well all of that sounds like a personal problem...

This may also increase traffic to certain dungeons, though I cannot imagine people finishing entire dungeons to farm crafting components.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
Another point. Does each boss drop their own token? This could make turn the dungeon vendor into a camp instead of just one npc, because of all of the subdivisions. Or does only the final boss of a dungeon hand out the guaranteed token?

I know a lot of people just fight up to the boss that they need to farm. Defeating the final boss does seem unnecessary when you would normally only farm the first boss or the secret boss.

However, it is awful when you finally get a dungeon run together, and half your team skips out at the second boss.
Since this is an mmo, KI wants us to play together, so they want us to run the full dungeon because other folks need to run the full dungeon. If the final boss is the only token giver then it would encourage folks to stick around to the end.

Nothing would stop folks from ignoring tokens and farming the traditional way, if that is what they choose to do. It's just that if they do stick to the end they get a bit of insurance, and they help three other people. Are you lucky enough, or will you work for the guarantee, just in case?

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
SpectreZero on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
That can be solved, just like any unwanted items, there's the Trash button or the Feed Pet or even Quick sold for a little gold.
...although I had envisioned they be treated a bit more like Arena Tickets in their own "currency" page/tab (since it's tokens per major dungeon) so they don't take up any inventory space!
Inventory space hadn't even entered my mind when I made the comment...I had assumed that tokens would be treated like snacks or gold or, like you mentioned, arena tickets and as such wouldn't occupy inventory space.
It's really not a question of the tokens being unwanted... it's what people are going to expect after they've done all the work to get tokens and now they're rendered basically worthless.
I've seen the greed and sense of entitlement on this forum and it's boundless. There will be a number of people that would feel like they've been cheated - even though they got what they wanted - because they'll feel that they did a lot more than necessary.

Explorer
Jul 04, 2015
92
TucsonWizard on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
Inventory space hadn't even entered my mind when I made the comment...I had assumed that tokens would be treated like snacks or gold or, like you mentioned, arena tickets and as such wouldn't occupy inventory space.
It's really not a question of the tokens being unwanted... it's what people are going to expect after they've done all the work to get tokens and now they're rendered basically worthless.
I've seen the greed and sense of entitlement on this forum and it's boundless. There will be a number of people that would feel like they've been cheated - even though they got what they wanted - because they'll feel that they did a lot more than necessary.
Ya, you get entitled people in every walk of life, you shouldn't really let them get to you. I personally group them on low priority, along with trolls, bullies, haters and keyboard warriors.

They shouldn't really have any bearing or even deter from having this system, as I see it, Tokens will bring more positives to the game than negatives. If it bothers some with additional Tokens, there should be a Quick Sell/Trash/Feed Pet option.

Keep up the constructive criticisms, it helps flesh out the system further!
Rock on, fellow Wizards!

Explorer
Jul 04, 2015
92
Zebulous Newt on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
Another point. Does each boss drop their own token? This could make turn the dungeon vendor into a camp instead of just one npc, because of all of the subdivisions. Or does only the final boss of a dungeon hand out the guaranteed token?

I know a lot of people just fight up to the boss that they need to farm. Defeating the final boss does seem unnecessary when you would normally only farm the first boss or the secret boss.

However, it is awful when you finally get a dungeon run together, and half your team skips out at the second boss.
Since this is an mmo, KI wants us to play together, so they want us to run the full dungeon because other folks need to run the full dungeon. If the final boss is the only token giver then it would encourage folks to stick around to the end.

Nothing would stop folks from ignoring tokens and farming the traditional way, if that is what they choose to do. It's just that if they do stick to the end they get a bit of insurance, and they help three other people. Are you lucky enough, or will you work for the guarantee, just in case?
You have a good point there, Newt, glad someone brought it up.

Maybe upon completing the dungeon, i.e. finishing the dungeon quest line, you receive additional (maybe one to three bonus) Tokens, once per day (so it can't be spammed/abused), as incentive to actually finish?

Sound good to anyone?

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
SpectreZero on Sep 25, 2015 wrote:
You have a good point there, Newt, glad someone brought it up.

Maybe upon completing the dungeon, i.e. finishing the dungeon quest line, you receive additional (maybe one to three bonus) Tokens, once per day (so it can't be spammed/abused), as incentive to actually finish?

Sound good to anyone?
Ok so each dungeon has its own token, each boss in the dungeon drops that token, then if you complete the quest line you get an additional token or two.

well if completing the quest only gave one token, it wouldn't be much of an abuse. I know some dungeons allow players to skip bosses. However if you skip bosses you miss tokens.

So five boss dungeon:
Skip two bosses somehow, get tokens for boss1, boss X, final boss, and quest: Earn four tokens
Defeat all five bosses and finish the quest: Earn six tokens.

Well I guess the speed runners may be able to run the dungeon faster, depending on how long the mandatory fights and puzzles are. They would have to make three abbreviated runs in about the time it takes the other party to complete two full runs in order to be as efficient. I don't really see that as an abuse. They are skipping drop chances, even possible crown item drops, in order to run the dungeon faster.

Some worlds have quests that require you to finish a dungeon. Speed runners are a great help to such players today, and may as well continue to be helpful in the future.

If a speed running group actually can skip bosses and still complete the dungeon quest, I don't have a problem with them getting the bonus token for every run they make. I certainly don't mind if a group runs the dungeon 100% each time and gets the bonus token each time.

Multiple tokens per run does make it easier to price the consumables. If a dungeon has six possible tokens per run, then the prices will reflect that.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
do secret bosses drop tokens?
If so: do they drop the regular dungeon tokens, secret dungeon tokens, or one of each?
I guess there could be an shop for the secret boss's drops. If some of his items overlap with the regular dungeon items it will take fewer secret tokens toy buy the same item, because they are only one token per run. Instead of three or more.

If secret bosses don't drop tokens: then it is regular boss farming as we know it for those exclusive items.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
Should non dungeon bosses drop tokens? They would be worth far less than the dungeon tokens, because every non dungeon boss in that world would drop them, so players could just farm the quickest boss for their class. Though farming the boss that actually has the drop they want could be quicker... possibly.

Though I guess the point of giving dungeons a token system is because most bosses in dungeons are much harder to get to, and take much more time to fight repeatedly. Most over world bosses can be fought solo, and can be fought again instantly.

Explorer
Jan 28, 2012
76
Yes! Yes, Yes, Yes!
This is a very elegant solution to a very big problem in the game. Please make this happen!

Historian
Nov 28, 2010
613
I think it's a good idea, and I believe there are simple workarounds for many of the suspected problems.

First, the tokens themselves. I don't think they need to be specific to the boss. As was mentioned, treat them like arena tickets. They are just another piece of loot you get when you defeat a boss.

You get the gear you want as a drop before you accumulate enough tokens? No problem. Carry them over. Eventually another boss will come out with a drop you want. This boss you won't have to fight 1,000 times to get what you came for like you did previous bosses.

The vendors selling the gear... just like many other things, set them up so that the gear is not available to purchase until you have defeated the boss at least once. That's how you prevent people from just buying the gear without ever completing the dungeon.

The only concern that I could see being a sticking point for some people would be retroactive payouts for bosses already defeated. However I do not believe that is a good reason to entirely dismiss the idea.

Though retroactive payouts are not necessarily required, I think a suitable compromise would be that at inception you get a one time payout of tokens that is equal to having defeated each boss at least once up to the point where you are in the main story line. Most side quest bosses have their own badge, tokens could also be awarded for those bosses based on which badges you have.

I don't know how easy or difficult that would be to calculate. Again, though it would be appreciated, it would not be necessary.

It's a good idea, and I hope it is being considered.

Astrologist
Dec 26, 2013
1124
High Five Ghost on Sep 28, 2015 wrote:
I think it's a good idea, and I believe there are simple workarounds for many of the suspected problems.

First, the tokens themselves. I don't think they need to be specific to the boss. As was mentioned, treat them like arena tickets. They are just another piece of loot you get when you defeat a boss.

You get the gear you want as a drop before you accumulate enough tokens? No problem. Carry them over. Eventually another boss will come out with a drop you want. This boss you won't have to fight 1,000 times to get what you came for like you did previous bosses.

The vendors selling the gear... just like many other things, set them up so that the gear is not available to purchase until you have defeated the boss at least once. That's how you prevent people from just buying the gear without ever completing the dungeon.

The only concern that I could see being a sticking point for some people would be retroactive payouts for bosses already defeated. However I do not believe that is a good reason to entirely dismiss the idea.

Though retroactive payouts are not necessarily required, I think a suitable compromise would be that at inception you get a one time payout of tokens that is equal to having defeated each boss at least once up to the point where you are in the main story line. Most side quest bosses have their own badge, tokens could also be awarded for those bosses based on which badges you have.

I don't know how easy or difficult that would be to calculate. Again, though it would be appreciated, it would not be necessary.

It's a good idea, and I hope it is being considered.
The problem I see with "generic" tokens is that it would allow people to spam relatively easy bosses in order to gain enough tokens to get the uber-boss loot. Granted, you mentioned the uber-boss(es) in question would have to be defeated at least once but that wouldn't stop the subsequent spamming. Once you get the first successful run out of the way you'd never have to go back to a place like Darkmoor ever again. You could spend the day farming the Jade Oni or Krokopatra for tokens enough to buy all the uber-boss gear you want...

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4162
High Five Ghost on Sep 28, 2015 wrote:
I think it's a good idea, and I believe there are simple workarounds for many of the suspected problems.

First, the tokens themselves. I don't think they need to be specific to the boss. As was mentioned, treat them like arena tickets. They are just another piece of loot you get when you defeat a boss.

You get the gear you want as a drop before you accumulate enough tokens? No problem. Carry them over. Eventually another boss will come out with a drop you want. This boss you won't have to fight 1,000 times to get what you came for like you did previous bosses.

The vendors selling the gear... just like many other things, set them up so that the gear is not available to purchase until you have defeated the boss at least once. That's how you prevent people from just buying the gear without ever completing the dungeon.

The only concern that I could see being a sticking point for some people would be retroactive payouts for bosses already defeated. However I do not believe that is a good reason to entirely dismiss the idea.

Though retroactive payouts are not necessarily required, I think a suitable compromise would be that at inception you get a one time payout of tokens that is equal to having defeated each boss at least once up to the point where you are in the main story line. Most side quest bosses have their own badge, tokens could also be awarded for those bosses based on which badges you have.

I don't know how easy or difficult that would be to calculate. Again, though it would be appreciated, it would not be necessary.

It's a good idea, and I hope it is being considered.
The problem with this is that it encourages people NOT to complete dungeons. Why fight the whole thing when I can just keep beating the first boss for tokens? I can do that solo for pretty much anything. Why fight all the way through Tartarus for Hades gear when I can just spend a few minutes each time beating the Death Satyr? It has to be boss specific to make it viable, otherwise parties will NEVER do whole dungeons past the first time through when they are released.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
I was thinking dungeon specific tokens, and each boss always drops one token.

Also you all seem to think that a piece of gear will only cost like 50 tokens.
That is not my expectation at all. People are farming the same gear for over a month, some people two months.

I am expecting gear to cost hundreds of tokens.

The problem as I see it, is that some people just slip through the cracks, and the odds never give them the drop that they want. Problem being; there are multiple items with the same rarity. They are getting rare drops, it is just for the wrong class, They have to get the rare drop at like 2%, and six times out of seven it is for the wrong class.

I only intended the token system as a means to help these unlucky players, and only them, without lowering the drop rates for gear.
I fully intend for players to still spend a month or two farming the tokens, depending on the drop rate of the gear they are after. I do not intend this to be a short cut, only a guarantee.

Each boss drops a token for that specific dungeon.
Shop prices:
*the more bosses a dungeon has, the more each item will cost
*the longer a dungeon takes the lower the cost will become
*drop rate percentage of the item itself will also increase its cost

I have no intention of reducing anyone's suffering, I just don't want them to suffer in vain.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
Which do you dislike more? People spamming the first boss till they earn enough tokens? Or speed runners who skip dungeon content?

If you don't like speed runners then each boss always gives a token for its dungeon. and gear costs hundreds of tokens.

If you don't like spammers then no bosses drop tokens and the token is a dungeon quest reward.

Either way I expect it to take a player a month at least, while averaging about three dungeon runs a day, to earn enough tokens.

Survivor
May 21, 2012
1
This is just simply the best idea i have ever seen for wizard, i really hope KI will do this. My poor fire waited 2 months minimum, could be longer to receive 7 or 8 hoods, nothing else just the hoods. If you do darkmoor runs then you know how it goes, how many times players bailed or went afk, or bad runs that take hours to complete. I honestly lost track of just how much time and effort because the fails were depressing. A token system would bring some much needed incentive to keep trying and reinforces the ideal that if you work at it hard enough you really can get it. I did very recently receive the rest of the gear for my fire, all in the space of a week which is just plain weird, i am telling this info because i don't want KI to think i am agreeing with this out of desperation to get it, i do have it now. I just really do agree that a token system at least for darkmoor and olympus would be a worthy addition to the game and make for better happier players all round, and by the way there are many wizards already farming for just the first boss right at this moment