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Traps and Blades

AuthorMessage
Developer
Greetings, students. Once again, I would like to discuss a topic that may make your travels through the Spiral a little easier. I want to discuss Traps, Blades and their use in combat. No matter what the strength of damage spells you cast, Traps and Blades will modify and increase the damage dealt.

Traps are Wards that are placed on an enemy target to modify incoming damage to that target. Blades are Charms that are placed on a friendly target to modify outgoing damage from that target. These all stack with each other to modify the next damage spell that matches their school type. Learning how these stack with each other is a vital part of combat.

If you place multiple instances of a Blade or Trap on a target, only the first instance of that spell will affect the next damage spell. But different versions of a Blade or Trap will stack. Let’s look at some examples.

A Pyromancer casts 2 Fire Trap spells on a target (+25% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), casts 2 Fireblades on herself (+35% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell), then casts a Fire Cat spell that does 120 points of damage. Only one of the Fire Traps and one of the Fireblades will modify the damage of the Fire Cat spell, because only one version of each spell is applied to the next damage spell.

120 + [(25% + 35%)/120] = 120 + [(60%/120)] = 120 + 72 = 192 points of damage.

However, the following combat, that same Pyromancer now casts one Fire Trap spell (+25% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), her pet’s Fire Trap spell (+30% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), a Fireblade spell (+35% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell) and a Fireblade spell from a piece of armor (+40% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell), then casts a Fire Cat spell that does 120 points of damage. This time, the results will be considerably different. Since these are different versions of spells, they will all stack with each other.

120 + [(25% + 30% + 35% + 40% / 120)] = 120 + [(130%/120)] = 120 + 156 = 276 points of damage

Other spells such as Feint, Hex, Curse, Dragonblade, Elemental Blade and others can also be stacked to increase damage on your spells. In combination with Auras and Global Effect spells, even more damage can be obtained.

I hope you will take this lesson to heart and use it to increase your effectiveness in combat situations.

“To control the Future, one must look to the Past.”
Illuminator
Feb 24, 2009
1359
Oh? I thought it was like this:

120*135% (Or 1.35) =162, Then:
162*125% (Or 1.25) = 202.5

Shame... I:

Survivor
Oct 12, 2011
2
Two things I'd like to point out:

1. To work the math as you have it, you cannot get the values. I believe you meant to use the symbol for multiply or * instead of that for divide or /. To get 72 as a value you would need to have 60*120. 60/120 gives 0.5.

2. In the rules of mathematics, when multiplying one does not add the values for multiplication together. You should take a value, multiply that by the first modifier, then multiply that result by the next modifer and so forth down the line. For example: 2*2*2*2*2 = 4*2*2*2 = 8*2*2 = 16*2 = 32.

Please review this post and check how these rules are applied in game.

B

Survivor
Aug 26, 2011
24
Well color me confused. With an ice wizard that has completed Azteca, a death wizard currently working her way through Azteca, I've been finding that my math on the fly has been a "little off". It's allways been a little off but with the more advanced worlds its become more and more signifigant.

I took my fire wizard out (just started Avalon) and tried to replicate you example. I went to Golem Court and removed all his gear so he had no gear bonuses. I used efreet instead of fire cat, since efreet does constant damage.

If I'm understanding you correctly it should be:

895 + (60% * 895) = 895 + 537 = 1432

However what I observed was... 1508. Now this is closer to the way I had been caculating damage which is:

Base Damage * 1.<damage modifer #1> * <damage modifer #2> etc.

Or in the case of my test

895 * 1.25 * 1.35 = 1510.3

But its still not "accurate". Could you explain the discrepancy please?

Developer
Interesting. It appears that the minions I relied on to generate numbers for me have failed utterly. This new-fangled abacus they are using causes them great confusion. Please allow me to clear up the error.

A Pyromancer casts 2 Fire Trap spells on a target (+25% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), casts 2 Fireblades on herself (+35% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell), then casts a Fire Cat spell that does 120 points of damage. Only one of the Fire Traps and one of the Fireblades will modify the damage of the Fire Cat spell.

This is how the numbers should work: 120 damage then apply + 35% + 25%
[(120 * 0.35) + 120] + 25% yields 162 + 25%
[(162 * 0.25) + 162] yields 203 points of damage

In the second scenario, that same Pyromancer now casts one Fire Trap spell (+25% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), her pet’s Fire Trap spell (+30% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), a Fireblade spell (+35% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell) and a Fireblade spell from a piece of armor (+40% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell), then casts a Fire Cat spell that does 120 points of damage.

This is how the numbers should work: 120 damage then apply +40% + 35% + 30% + 25%.
[(120 * 0.40) + 120] yields 168 +35% +30% + 25%
[(168 * 0.35) + 168] yields 226 +30% +25%
[(226 * 0.30) + 226] yields 293 +25%
[(293 * 0.25) + 293] yields 366 points of damage

There is something I wish you to bear in mind. We are trying to assign point values to the chaotic forces of magic. Magic is difficult to quantify. There are numerous factors present that will alter the results of a spell by small degrees. Even one point of damage subtracted early on can cause results at the end to vary wildly. The order spells are cast will affect the order in which damage is calculated, which can change the end results.

I hope this clears up this mistake. Rest assured the minions responsible for this calculation error have been reassigned to cleaning out the drake stables in Dragonspyre for the months to come.

“To control the Future, one must look to the Past.”
Illuminator
Feb 24, 2009
1359
Professor Drake on Mar 11, 2013 wrote:
Interesting. It appears that the minions I relied on to generate numbers for me have failed utterly. This new-fangled abacus they are using causes them great confusion. Please allow me to clear up the error.

A Pyromancer casts 2 Fire Trap spells on a target (+25% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), casts 2 Fireblades on herself (+35% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell), then casts a Fire Cat spell that does 120 points of damage. Only one of the Fire Traps and one of the Fireblades will modify the damage of the Fire Cat spell.

This is how the numbers should work: 120 damage then apply + 35% + 25%
[(120 * 0.35) + 120] + 25% yields 162 + 25%
[(162 * 0.25) + 162] yields 203 points of damage

In the second scenario, that same Pyromancer now casts one Fire Trap spell (+25% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), her pet’s Fire Trap spell (+30% to next incoming Fire Damage spell), a Fireblade spell (+35% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell) and a Fireblade spell from a piece of armor (+40% to next outgoing Fire Damage spell), then casts a Fire Cat spell that does 120 points of damage.

This is how the numbers should work: 120 damage then apply +40% + 35% + 30% + 25%.
[(120 * 0.40) + 120] yields 168 +35% +30% + 25%
[(168 * 0.35) + 168] yields 226 +30% +25%
[(226 * 0.30) + 226] yields 293 +25%
[(293 * 0.25) + 293] yields 366 points of damage

There is something I wish you to bear in mind. We are trying to assign point values to the chaotic forces of magic. Magic is difficult to quantify. There are numerous factors present that will alter the results of a spell by small degrees. Even one point of damage subtracted early on can cause results at the end to vary wildly. The order spells are cast will affect the order in which damage is calculated, which can change the end results.

I hope this clears up this mistake. Rest assured the minions responsible for this calculation error have been reassigned to cleaning out the drake stables in Dragonspyre for the months to come.
An error... Shame... I think we all deserve a few bonus points on our average for correcting you, professor (;

Hero
Jul 30, 2012
774
It may be worth adding convert prisms to the discussion since they are so closely related.

The order that blades, traps, feints, and prisms are applied generally doesn't matter except with school specific traps. Applying a school specific trap before a prism is a complete waste... it does nothing when a convert prism is used.

Here are a bunch of examples using my death wizard.

prism, death blade, wraith -> 2178 dmg
death blade, prism, wraith -> 2178 dmg

prism, spirit blade, wraith -> 2072 dmg
spirit blade, prism, wraith -> 2072 dmg

prism, feint, wraith -> 2646 dmg
feint, prism, wraith -> 2646 dmg

prism, curse, wraith -> 1868 dmg
curse, prism, wraith -> 1868 dmg

prism, hex, wraith -> 2099 dmg
hex, prism, wraith -> 2099 dmg

prism, death trap, wraith -> 2019 dmg
death trap, prism, wraith -> trap gets ignored, 1557 dmg

prism, sprit trap, wraith -> 2019 dmg *note the death trap gets used
sprit trap, prism, wraith -> 2019 dmg *note the life trap gets used

I suppose the magical philosophy behind the inconsistancy is that the death spell is converted into a life spell and any traps or feints applied before the prism get treated like a life spell is using them (so death traps are ignored).

The behaviour of the blades is different than traps. They all get converted regardless of casting order. I'll leave further magical philosophy to the Ravenwood professors.

If everybody could please thank Oyotomi in the Village of Sorrow for being a great test subject.
Happy Wizarding!

Survivor
Jul 31, 2011
18
Thanks for the tip because I am in dragonspyre trying to beat your brother since he have like 10000 health.

Survivor
Feb 26, 2013
23
Well if you put a blade spell on yourself and some enemy puts that attack weakener on you, the 2 things will both be activated on your next spell, thus balancing each other out. I learned that when fighting the Nirini Quartermaster. :)

Archon
Oct 24, 2010
4956
rainbowdashthe1st on Mar 17, 2013 wrote:
Well if you put a blade spell on yourself and some enemy puts that attack weakener on you, the 2 things will both be activated on your next spell, thus balancing each other out. I learned that when fighting the Nirini Quartermaster. :)
They don't balance out unless your blade is 25%.
Death blade is 40% so after weakness is subtracted, you still have a boost of 15%.

Hero
Jul 30, 2012
774
rainbowdashthe1st on Mar 17, 2013 wrote:
Well if you put a blade spell on yourself and some enemy puts that attack weakener on you, the 2 things will both be activated on your next spell, thus balancing each other out. I learned that when fighting the Nirini Quartermaster. :)
It depends on the size of spells. Equivalent sized spells do not balance out.

A 50% trap on the enemy and a 50% weakness do not balance out. Lets say you do a 100pt attack.

(100 * 0.5) +100 = 150
(150 * -0.5) +150 = 75
So your attack does only 75 pts damage.

A more extreme example is an 80% weakness spell:
Feint(75%) + Feint (70%) + Blade(40%) + Trap(30%) + Weakness(-80%) + Attack(100pt) = 108.3pt

Defender
Dec 16, 2009
193
RavenLady777 on Mar 17, 2013 wrote:
They don't balance out unless your blade is 25%.
Death blade is 40% so after weakness is subtracted, you still have a boost of 15%.
I wonder if it's supposed to work that way, I always thought the damage was value 1, then plus balanceblade = 1.25 value damage, minus 25% of 1.25 is .9375 and not 1.15. (end result multiply by the base damage)