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Raising the level cap?

AuthorMessage
Squire
Dec 02, 2008
543
I've seen it implicitly assumed that the level cap will be raised with the release of Dragonspyre. Right now, people say that doing all the quests in the game only gets you to level 45 or so, while the level cap is 50. Releasing Dragonspyre would make it so that doing all the quests will get you to a higher level, of course, so if Dragonspyre would get an average player to, say, level 55, then raising the cap to that may make sense.

But if the Dragonspyre quests would get a player to 55, then raising the cap beyond that (say, to 60) would be a bad idea. With experience coming almost exclusively from quest completion, that would be an enormous amount of grinding to go from the end of the quests to the level cap. Indeed, that's the situation right now. Right now, that doesn't matter, but with the release of pvp coming soon, it will.

If one player is several levels higher than another, that player has a big advantage. Some may argue that it's not that big of an advantage, but when people claim that in other games, they usually mean that it's game-breakingly big. Battles are won and lost on the margins, especially at the high end. For example, last year, the Lakers were the #1 seed in the west (in the NBA), but if you had spotted their opponents a mere 4 1/2 points per game (with the half to avoid ties), they'd have missed the playoffs entirely.

Has there been any official word on what will happen with the level cap?

Survivor
Dec 28, 2008
23
I disagree.
I think it's fine this way.. the game is easy enough and the biggest challenge is training from 45 to 50.

There is hardly any training at all because of the massive amount of exp you get from quests.

The game really isn't hard enough.
I've been playing for half a month and I'm more than halfway done.
Level 35 and about to complete Marlybone. Got to Big Ben last night.

I wish that training gave you more experience and quests gave you less so there could be more to the actual training on your own thing.. that way we didn't have everyone do quests and all be the same level after.
And then have a much higher level cap that way the experience given wouldn't have to be modified now really.. like for quests and such.

I hope Dragonspyre is harder than everything else by a lot because this game is so easy if you have more than one person questing with you..
Alone it's fine and a challenge but with at least one other person it's ridiculously easy.
When you go into a battle with a buddy.. the only thing different is more monsters come but they should also be stronger too.
Like with higher worlds.. they just get more HP.
I've never seen a monster use over a level 10 spell.
They need to get stronger.. not just have more health.

Sorry to go off into something different.. but yeah.

Squire
Dec 02, 2008
543
gotscoolshoes wrote:
I disagree.
I think it's fine this way.


The way things are right now, there is no pvp. Do you want them to hold off on that forever?

gotscoolshoes wrote:
I wish that training gave you more experience and quests gave you less so there could be more to the actual training on your own thing.. that way we didn't have everyone do quests and all be the same level after.
And then have a much higher level cap that way the experience given wouldn't have to be modified now really.. like for quests and such.


A lot of games do that--and it's an incredible nuisance. Having to go kill 1000 furbolgs in a row in order to level is not fun. I much prefer the existing approach of, you've killed a few, you've demonstrated that in principle you could kill a lot more, so that's enough and you can go fight something else now.

Having experience come mostly from quests rather than grinding is one way that this game is better than quite a lot of others. To remove that would be quite a shame.

Of course, if you think that killing 1000 furbolgs in a row is fun, there's nothing stopping you from killing ten times as many mobs as necessary for all of the quests that require it.

gotscoolshoes wrote:
I've never seen a monster use over a level 10 spell.
They need to get stronger.. not just have more health.


Assuming you mean the level at which a player can first acquire a spell, I've seen a number of mobs use Iceblade, which is first obtained at level 38. If you meant a higher level damage spell, without fighting anything past Krokotopia, I've seen mobs use Ice Wyvern and Kraken, and I think Seraph and Vampire, too, though I might be mistaken.

Survivor
Dec 28, 2008
23
1.
Um. No.
I never said anything relating to PVP at all.
By keeping things how they are I mean by having leftover levels after completing all quests.. that way there can be a little bit something to this game.
If by completing all the quests got you to the max level then we wouldn't see anything different.
By this I mean everyone would be the max level because it doesn't take much to complete all the quests.

2.
The reason I'd prefer if quests weren't all that leveled you is because if everyone completes the quests then everyone is all the same level.
There isn't a big amount of diversity.
If anyone is the max level there's really not much to it.
Not much to be proud of when it can take less than a month to get to level 50.
MMORPGs normally are meant to keep you busy for months and even years.. when people hit the max level in a month and finally get the best gear and spells.. what do you expect them to stick around for?
Doing the same old stuff? Just fighting at the arena all day long?
Wait for a PVP system that you can't even wager in?
We have a PVP system already at the arena.. what's going to be so different about the one they are working on?
I wouldn't know since I've never tried it out simply because my character was never copied over to the test realm and I don't want to make a new one just for that.
If you get bored of the game in a month then you stop playing meaning you also stop paying.

3.
Actually, now that I think about it.. I have seen a bit higher leveled stuff.
I've seen Jade Oni use Seraph.
That's about it.
It still doesn't make up for the fact that mobs are too easy.
Like I was fighting Jade Oni and he has 7,500 health.. it took a while but it was so easy.. only having to heal a couple times.

Level 45 to 50 is probably the hardest part of the game so why take that away?
If you want level 45 to be the max so bad then just don't train to 50 and quit complaining.

Squire
Dec 02, 2008
543
Suppose that a player wants to pvp without being at a disadvantage because he's lower level than the other guy. How much time should he have to spend doing stupid stuff that nearly everyone hates?

a) none
b) hours
c) days
d) weeks
e) months
f) years

There is, I think, an obvious correct answer to this: none. It seems that you disagree. What, exactly, is the advantage to choosing, say, choice d? That you can convince players who run out of pve content to quit because of the awful grind ahead of them rather than trying out pvp knowing that they'll forever be at a level disadvantage?

You seem to be upset at the thought of players reaching max level without having to spend absurd amounts of time doing tiresome things that nearly everyone hates. So let's try a simple thought experiment.

Suppose that the only way to reach the level cap were to press the "q" key once per second for eight hours straight. You can't macro it, and if you take a break for two seconds, you fail and have to start over. Would you do it?

Surely you know as well as I do that a lot of people who play online games would, in the game they play even if not this one. Furthermore, if KingsIsle later created alternate methods to get to the level cap, there would be an outcry from the people who were already there of how this was unfair, and the other people who wanted to reach the level cap should have to "earn" it by severely damaging their wrists. And yet, I should hope that it isn't necessary to explain why this is spectacularly bad game design.

As far as it being "hard" to get to the level cap, let's not confuse "takes a lot of time" with "is challenging". Getting the top score at one of the minigames is challenging. That's a good thing. Pressing a key once per second for an hour takes a while, but isn't fun.

-----

This is supposed to be a kids' game, for crying out loud! Do you really want to get young children started on painful grinding so soon? Is it really so wrong to let them know that there are better games out there? That playing online games doesn't have to consist of striving for insipid goals like killing 1000 furbolgs, so that you can complete that quest and get the one to kill 2000 furbolgs?

Do you really want to sentence so many young children to a life of playing dreadful grinders from IGG and Aeria? Surely they deserve better than that! Think of the poor children!

(Okay, so this last section is half in jest. But only half.)

Survivor
Dec 15, 2008
24
I'm going to weigh in on a couple things.

1) It is correct that getting from level 45 to 50 in this game is one of the most time consuming aspects of it. That is fine. It gives a goal to complete after you have finished MooShu. To change it so that all people ended MooShu at the level cap would take away something from those who worked so hard to get to Grandmaster.

2) For ANYONE claiming that quest XP should be lowered in order to encourage more grinding: If you like grinding, their are a myriad of games out there geared toward that. A lot of people, myself included, consider grinding on enemies just to level up to be a waste of time. If you like grinding, leave Wizard 101. Basically, what I am hearing with all the grinding requests is this: "I like grinding, and know that there are tons of games out there which will let me do that. But, instead of playing one of THOSE games, I think you should change THIS game to suit what I want. After all, the fact that this game was designed to be different than games like WoW shouldn't matter. It should only matter that every game out there caters to my needs."

Seriously, if you want to do something that is different than what Wizard 101 has to offer, then find a new game. Don't try to change games that are intentionally different than the other MMOs out there just because you don't like it.

I like this game the way it is, and adding grinding to it would kill the experience for me (and, I guarantee, a lot of other players).

Survivor
Dec 28, 2008
23
To Quizzical:
I'm not even going to read what you posted.
I skimmed a couple paragraphs and quit.

I don't feel like arguing with someone who wants everything handed to them on a silver platter.

I never said it had to be grinding.
I hate games that involve constant grinding and don't mind doing quests but it is still far too easy.
I'm thankful I don't have to kill the same monster over hundreds of times.
Heck. I hate when I have to kill them 8 times!
There should be other ways to train that don't end after you finish quests apart from training.
Ways that could be repeated over and over but wouldn't be like grinding.
Maybe mini-games of some sort that involved other players in the game.
Not like the faireground mini-games but ones that would involve your character. Not really like quests, instances, or PVP fighting though.
Maybe it could still be PVP but be something completely different.

And relating to when PVP system comes out.. you don't have to just fight the max level bud.
If you're level 20 then find someone around level 20 to fight.

As to Enoch:
Again. I am not a fan of grinding so you can stop going on about it.
And yes. I agree the level 45 to 50 challenge is one of the biggest parts and without it there wouldn't be much a challenge when you completed Mooshu.. plus it would be a long challenge so it would last you a while so I think it should stay.
It isn't like anyone said you had to rush to level 50.
Just don't even bother and slowly over time you will level.

Survivor
Dec 21, 2008
2
Enoch1980 wrote:
I'm going to weigh in on a couple things.

1) It is correct that getting from level 45 to 50 in this game is one of the most time consuming aspects of it. That is fine. It gives a goal to complete after you have finished MooShu. To change it so that all people ended MooShu at the level cap would take away something from those who worked so hard to get to Grandmaster.

2) For ANYONE claiming that quest XP should be lowered in order to encourage more grinding: If you like grinding, their are a myriad of games out there geared toward that. A lot of people, myself included, consider grinding on enemies just to level up to be a waste of time. If you like grinding, leave Wizard 101. Basically, what I am hearing with all the grinding requests is this: "I like grinding, and know that there are tons of games out there which will let me do that. But, instead of playing one of THOSE games, I think you should change THIS game to suit what I want. After all, the fact that this game was designed to be different than games like WoW shouldn't matter. It should only matter that every game out there caters to my needs."

Seriously, if you want to do something that is different than what Wizard 101 has to offer, then find a new game. Don't try to change games that are intentionally different than the other MMOs out there just because you don't like it.

I like this game the way it is, and adding grinding to it would kill the experience for me (and, I guarantee, a lot of other players).


I completely agree with you.

Survivor
Dec 18, 2008
23
Quizzical wrote:
gotscoolshoes wrote:
I disagree.
I think it's fine this way.


The way things are right now, there is no pvp. Do you want them to hold off on that forever?

gotscoolshoes wrote:
I wish that training gave you more experience and quests gave you less so there could be more to the actual training on your own thing.. that way we didn't have everyone do quests and all be the same level after.
And then have a much higher level cap that way the experience given wouldn't have to be modified now really.. like for quests and such.


A lot of games do that--and it's an incredible nuisance. Having to go kill 1000 furbolgs in a row in order to level is not fun. I much prefer the existing approach of, you've killed a few, you've demonstrated that in principle you could kill a lot more, so that's enough and you can go fight something else now.

Having experience come mostly from quests rather than grinding is one way that this game is better than quite a lot of others. To remove that would be quite a shame.

Of course, if you think that killing 1000 furbolgs in a row is fun, there's nothing stopping you from killing ten times as many mobs as necessary for all of the quests that require it.

gotscoolshoes wrote:
I've never seen a monster use over a level 10 spell.
They need to get stronger.. not just have more health.


Assuming you mean the level at which a player can first acquire a spell, I've seen a number of mobs use Iceblade, which is first obtained at level 38. If you meant a higher level damage spell, without fighting anything past Krokotopia, I've seen mobs use Ice Wyvern and Kraken, and I think Seraph and Vampire, too, though I might be mistaken.


But this in the long run will create problems for the game. Everyone levels so quickly, that eventually the majority of players will be in the highest level realm.

The ability to create new characters will delay this problem for awhile. but eventually, and even a little bit now, it is extremely difficult to find people in certain areas.

So then when everyones in dragonspyre and they've completed all of it's quest. They will want a new area to level up, and with almost no reason to return to previous areas, this leaves them almost nothing left to do but to "grind".

Honestly, this is the first game, that i've ever played, that its a bad thing to get in a fight with a monster. If your not doing a quest, there is literally no reason to fight anything. The only exception would be the boss monsters, but eventually when you get the rare drops, there will be no reason to fight them again.

They designers have created a game that is based on new content. I just hope they can keep up :)

Explorer
May 22, 2008
76
forgotnglory wrote:

They designers have created a game that is based on new content. I just hope they can keep up :)


I have a question for you. What percentage of paying players do you think are at the level cap? My guess is probably less than 10%. So really, it's not about "keeping up with the hardcore players", because this game doesn't cater to hardcore players. It's more about bringing in lots of new players that enjoy playing slowly and casually. It's a family game, not a hardcore MMORPG. It's fun. Not work.

Squire
Dec 02, 2008
543
There are several different topics here. First, about mobs using higher pip spells.

I've seen Risen Djeserit or something like it (the one that is with Queen Irisi Djeserit, but not the queen herself) use Seraph. I've seen Ice Wyvern used by a mob the fight against Warden Abasi, though I don't recall if it was the boss that used it or its ally. I've seen Krokopatra use Kraken. All of those are four pip damage spells in Krokotopia.

Due to the nature of the AI, for a mob to use high pip spells with high probability would make mobs weaker, not stronger. If a mob draws a card and doesn't have enough pips for it, it passes. High pip cards would result in mobs passing quite a lot, which would make them easier to defeat.

It would also result in it being easier to waste the mobs' pips. If a mob saves up six pips for Helephant, and that mob is known to use Helephant a lot, a player can see it coming and throw up a fire shield when the mob reaches six pips. That consumes six pips of the mob's, and the player only takes around 200 damage.

Having high pip cards used with small probability may make sense, but that would mean that you'd rarely see the card actually used. Not only would the card only infrequently be drawn, but when it was, the mob usually wouldn't have enough pips, resulting in a pass.

-----

Sure, what everyone wants is for more new content. A higher level cap with enough content to get players to the cap isn't what's being debated here. Realistically, KingsIsle can only add so much content so fast if they're going to maintain their standards of quality.

The question is what the level cap should be while waiting for new content. More to the point, it is whether grinding in lieu of content should be required to reach the level cap. If players don't have anything to do apart from grinding, then players don't have anything to do, period.

As for players who are out of content but not at the level cap, if the pvp system selects players of the same level to pvp against each other, so that someone who completes all of the content but doesn't then burn time on grinding doesn't pvp against higher levels, I'd be fine with that. That would be a rather unusual thing for a game to do, however.

Usually the point of leveling in a game with pvp is precisely to unbalance the pvp. That is, to make pvp a contest of who has spent more time grinding in the game, rather than of whether they're any good at the game.

The basic problem is that everyone wants to win at pvp most of the time, but if one side wins a battle, that means that the other side loses. A company that makes winning based on leveling (or gear or whatever) rather than player skill can implicitly promise most of the players at once that they'll eventually be the high levels dominating pvp. It doesn't work out that way, because by the time a player gets to where the top levels are now, the top levels will be much higher yet, so only a very small proportion of the playerbase ever gets to be the high levels dominating pvp.

Perhaps people eventually catch on and give up, but it takes long enough that they pay a monthly fee quite a few times first--and there are always new players entering the industry.

-----

Will everyone rapidly reach the level cap and then be out of content and quit? To that I'd ask, has it already happened? We're more than 4 1/2 months past release, and the content in the game (before today's patch) wouldn't take a hard-core player a month to get through.

As for what to do if you're at the level cap, it's a lot more fun to create an alt and play through the game again than to spend time grinding. To require grinding in order to be viable in pvp is to discourage players from playing alts if they're going to pvp. That is, it encourages players to have less fun rather than more. I don't know about its viability as a business strategy, but if I pick up that a game is pushing heavy grinding, I quit pretty quickly.

Furthermore, I don't think it's automatic that there can't be further content at the level cap. Guild Wars has most of its content take place at the level cap, and that worked out quite well. It's great to be able to play through the game and do things for fun without having to worry about whether what you're doing will level you as fast as someone else.

Finally, a number of the formulas have set values at level 1 and level 50, and interpolate for other values, then round to an integer to give you your final value. That makes sense if the level cap is 50. If they raise the level cap, then either they change the formulas or else have formulas that just seem goofy.

Survivor
Dec 26, 2008
9
I thought this game was mainly aimed at younger folks. I mean like folks under 15. If so, then it's probably complex enough for them.

Just saying...

Survivor
Jun 28, 2008
37
Careful what you wish for...dragonspyre is much harder
lots of forced solo until someone else has made it that far( would you like to port to your friend?... sorry your friend is busy )
as for the grind , there is still a grind funtionality to the game ,
it is called titles , having blood of the giants above my head was totally worth the couples days killing cyclops in krok
it earned me alot of cyclops treasure cards..
the top ninja title was another fun week of grinding, and I currently have 47 ninja pig treasure cards .. drool if you must :P