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Could Malistaire be Mellori's Father?

1
AuthorMessage
Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
I've brought this up before, so before you move on to a new topic just hear me out, I'm trying to get as many opinions as I can here.

We know Mellori is a "Child of Grandmother Raven" but what does that mean exactly? I would guess that the words "Child of Grandmother Raven" holds a similar meaning to "Child of Grandfather Spider", and the more I look at the pieces of dialogue where Old Cob calls another big bad guy his "Child" I'm finding a similar pattern. The word child is capitalized almost every time, in such a way that it seems the word child is being used like a title rather than in it's common meaning. And correct me if I'm wrong, but in the game it seems as though Rasputin and Xerxes had existed well before we released Cob in Krysalis. That would mean that Rasputin and Xerxes are no more physically tied to Spider than Mellori is to Raven.

So if they're not be biologically related, they could be linked magically or in spirit which means all these "Children" had to come from somewhere. It wouldn't be like KingsIlse to just poof Mellori into existence, and I'm fairly sure Mellori didn't hatch out of an egg (unless she's actually a raven that can shapeshift into a human).

Now here's where things get interesting, if you can open another tab (or if you can pull up the game and log in) and find (or take) a good screen shot of Mellori and Sylvia Spitfire (basically Sylvia before she married Malistaire) (the best pictures to use for this can be found on the Wizard101 wiki under the NPC's tab for the AV Telegraph Box and WC Firecat Alley, look for the ones where the npc's are facing directly forward) now put them side by side. It could just be a coincidence, but does anyone else see the resemblance?

Provided I haven't gone completely blind, it would seem Mellori has her mother's overall looks, and her father's hair and eye color. Sure there are differences but not every child is the spitting-image of their parents. I could also argue that Mellori is more than likely a life wizard just like Sylvia Drake was, but I exclude this because of the Book of Secrets which is used to determine a student's school of magic via personality test.

Of course there are some holes in this theory, the most prominent being; how does no one remember Mellori? Especially the people her parents worked with or were close to. I doubt everyone just forgot or chooses not to discuss it, unless Grandmother Raven erased all memory of Mellori's past prior to us meeting her.

However, if Mellori is related to the Drakes, it would explain why she seems uncomfortable being in Ravenwood/Wizard City it was the place where Malistaire went insane and where her mother died. It might also explain her relationship with Raven, perhaps Raven sensed something dark in Malistaire and took her away to keep her safe from him.

It seems a fitting if not dramatic origin for Mellori, and Malistaire always seems to wiggle his way back into mention.

So what you guys think?

Defender
Dec 26, 2016
135
Actually it was revealed that Spider's children were born while he was in the Black Hole.

From the quest "Knowledge and Information" from Polaris: "They're a dark nasty brood, born out of pure misery during Spider's Captivity" -Zander

And just before The Rat reveals his true form: "For centuries, we lay in the darkness and torment, but we dreamed of this day, when shadows would rise and pure Chaos would be properly restored."

These two quotes show that they were with Spider the whole time while he was imprisoned. I like to believe that they were born in a similar fashion to how Bartelby sang the titans into existence. Point is, they're his "biological" children. Xerxes did exist, but Scorpion had disguised himself as Xerxes to blend into the surroundings. And The Rat has hypnotizing powers, so he would be able to easily blend in as the Empress' adviser.

As for Sylvia and Mellori looking similar, I'd boil it down to just the art style.

And for the "nobody remembering Mellori part", as a child of Grandmother Raven, the form we see her in probably isn't her natural state. Look at how Grandmother Raven is in Wintertusk compared to how she looks when we see her in Polaris and Mirage. The only people who would know what she looks like no matter her form would be Raven and maybe Bartelby, and he doesn't even remember the player's name.

And she did tell us why she was uncomfortable at Ravenwood. After our adventure in Polaris, she still wanted to keep on adventuring, and then ends up being stuck at school while we go on to Mirage. It's why she's so happy to be back on the trail at the end of Mirage.

I'm actually kinda hoping Grandfather Spider is Mellori's missing father though, I feel like that would add more drama than the Drake's being her parents ever would.

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 9

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
thatgrumpypanda on Jul 26, 2017 wrote:
Actually it was revealed that Spider's children were born while he was in the Black Hole.

From the quest "Knowledge and Information" from Polaris: "They're a dark nasty brood, born out of pure misery during Spider's Captivity" -Zander

And just before The Rat reveals his true form: "For centuries, we lay in the darkness and torment, but we dreamed of this day, when shadows would rise and pure Chaos would be properly restored."

These two quotes show that they were with Spider the whole time while he was imprisoned. I like to believe that they were born in a similar fashion to how Bartelby sang the titans into existence. Point is, they're his "biological" children. Xerxes did exist, but Scorpion had disguised himself as Xerxes to blend into the surroundings. And The Rat has hypnotizing powers, so he would be able to easily blend in as the Empress' adviser.

As for Sylvia and Mellori looking similar, I'd boil it down to just the art style.

And for the "nobody remembering Mellori part", as a child of Grandmother Raven, the form we see her in probably isn't her natural state. Look at how Grandmother Raven is in Wintertusk compared to how she looks when we see her in Polaris and Mirage. The only people who would know what she looks like no matter her form would be Raven and maybe Bartelby, and he doesn't even remember the player's name.

And she did tell us why she was uncomfortable at Ravenwood. After our adventure in Polaris, she still wanted to keep on adventuring, and then ends up being stuck at school while we go on to Mirage. It's why she's so happy to be back on the trail at the end of Mirage.

I'm actually kinda hoping Grandfather Spider is Mellori's missing father though, I feel like that would add more drama than the Drake's being her parents ever would.

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 9
Okay so there is a physical connection between Spider and his Children, thank for clearing that up. It always goo to have people keeping me from spouting complete nonsense.

I agree with you, it would be an interesting twist of fate to see Cob as Mellori's father. But I feel it wouldn't make as sense from a continuity stand point. Since Spider chose to admire/love Raven in silence, he never confessed his feelings to her (as far as we know) and when Raven cast him down she unknowingly broke his heart and locked him away in the Black Hole. Unless Mellori was created prior to Raven striking down Spider (thus making Mellori thousands of years old), I don't see how it would be possible.

And the way Mellori acts when she reveals herself as a child of Grandmother Raven, screams something along the lines of "I'm a secret agent of an ancient magical deity.", meanwhile we're standing in front of Raven's greatest adversary. It seems a rather stupid mistake for Mellori to announce her true nature in front of the being that threatens her mother the most, no less stands the most to gain from capturing her.

If Raven had truly raised her from an infant one would think Raven would have taught her to be more careful. One might also think that Raven would have taught Mellori how to deal with Spider (seeing as Raven was the one who struck him down), and prevent him from fighting back or how to prevent Spider from capturing her.

I think Raven might have trained to Mellori, to some extent, at the very least she taught her a spell that could end Cob. And then Cob turned out to be more powerful than Raven anticipated or Mellori just wasn't strong enough to finish him off.

If Mellori had existed prior to Cob being locked away then I'm fairly sure the outcome at the end of Mirage would have been very different. Ending in Cob's death/ total defeat rather than Cob capturing Mellori and whisking her away to unlock Raven's secrets.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
thatgrumpypanda on Jul 26, 2017 wrote:
Actually it was revealed that Spider's children were born while he was in the Black Hole.

From the quest "Knowledge and Information" from Polaris: "They're a dark nasty brood, born out of pure misery during Spider's Captivity" -Zander

And just before The Rat reveals his true form: "For centuries, we lay in the darkness and torment, but we dreamed of this day, when shadows would rise and pure Chaos would be properly restored."

These two quotes show that they were with Spider the whole time while he was imprisoned. I like to believe that they were born in a similar fashion to how Bartelby sang the titans into existence. Point is, they're his "biological" children. Xerxes did exist, but Scorpion had disguised himself as Xerxes to blend into the surroundings. And The Rat has hypnotizing powers, so he would be able to easily blend in as the Empress' adviser.

As for Sylvia and Mellori looking similar, I'd boil it down to just the art style.

And for the "nobody remembering Mellori part", as a child of Grandmother Raven, the form we see her in probably isn't her natural state. Look at how Grandmother Raven is in Wintertusk compared to how she looks when we see her in Polaris and Mirage. The only people who would know what she looks like no matter her form would be Raven and maybe Bartelby, and he doesn't even remember the player's name.

And she did tell us why she was uncomfortable at Ravenwood. After our adventure in Polaris, she still wanted to keep on adventuring, and then ends up being stuck at school while we go on to Mirage. It's why she's so happy to be back on the trail at the end of Mirage.

I'm actually kinda hoping Grandfather Spider is Mellori's missing father though, I feel like that would add more drama than the Drake's being her parents ever would.

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 9
It is possible that what I'm seeing could just be a by-product of the art style with young Sylvia and Mellori looking similar.

But I would like to point all the main npc's up to this point have looked distinctly different from one another. Call me unobservant, but I went back and compared Mellori's appearance to the appearances of other human female characters. And still I find that humans like Sultana Sharzad, the Loremaster, even the female ghosts in Dragonspyre look distinctly different from one another. And Sultana, the Loremaster, and Sylvia Spitfire are of almost the same graphical quality. When put side by side with Mellori's picture, it becomes easy to see the features that make the character's overall appearance/designs different.

Yet, when I put Sylvia and Mellori next to each other they look so similar, it hard for me to ignore it.

Plus KingsIlse has this thing with the letter 'M', the major villains in the first and second story arc have names that start with the letter 'M'. I'll be shocked if we don't end up with a major villain in the third arc who's name doesn't begin with 'M'.

It has been speculated that Mellori could become the Bat. If Mellori was Malistaire's daughter, it would make sense for Cob to use a piece of information like that to turn her against us. Something along the lines of "you're best friend killed you father." (twice to be exact), if that doesn't elicit some feeling of rage from her than either Mellori really trusts us or she's not human. And when you think about it Cob stands to gain quiet a lot from turning Mellori to his side.

Defender
Dec 26, 2016
135
Technically she WAS a secret agent of Grandmother Raven, she was just a secret agent that happened to be her daughter. She even referred Grandmother Raven as her mother, something she never called Baba Yaga (who we thought was her true mother at the time). Mellori probably couldn't believe that we would actually spare Spider and was absolutely livid at the action, which made her do things she wouldn't normally do (like revealing herself to her mother's nemesis). And after watching us knock him around, she probably thought he wouldn't be able to do anything.

I'm having trouble figuring out the continuity myself (the Chronocle's story makes it sound like Raven went to the Black Hole AFTER Spider was imprisoned to steal his heart, how much sense does that make?), so we can't be sure if Mellori is connected to Spider in any way.

But with your point about Raven raising her from an infant, I have a theory about this one. I have feeling Mellori was dropped off on Baba Yaga's doorstep with a "note" in her sub-conscious of what she was supposed to do and it was itching her which is why she comes with us to see the Auroracle in Polaris. Maybe that was her question?

And yeah, now I see what you're talking about with Sylvia and Mellori looking similar while everyone looks different. Maybe they're hinting that Mellori would play a similar role in Empyrea than Sylvia's in Darkmoor and Dragonspyre (becomes corrupted, gets set free, becomes a catalyst in the final battle, voice of reason, etc.).

And with Mellori turning into the Bat, I actually hope that happens. Like somehow the Bat is weakened and s/he possesses Mellori's body or turns her into a vampire (I think the Bat was described as a vampire at least ). If Grandfather Spider tries to turn her against us, he could also say something along the lines of "Why didn't your best friend try to stop me instead of standing there with their mouth hanging open?", it would be a nice callback to this scene.

(Part 1)

Defender
Dec 26, 2016
135
(Part 2)

Also something I thought about "Child" (how it's almost always capitalized). It's either:

  1. Everyone is using it as a title, as that is what they are (Scorpion, Son of Spider)
  2. It's referring to a prophecy (Us, the Child of Light and Shadow)
  3. Some combination of the two

It's a bit of a stretch, but what if Grandmother Raven's child, Grandfather Spider's children, and the player are apart of another prophecy we haven't heard of yet. Right after Cob reveals himself for who he truly is, he says something about "writing a new prophecy". It may seem a little late to introduce it, but we didn't even hear Morganthe's full prophecy until Khrysalis part two.

(This discussion is giving me the sense that Empyrea is going to wreck my feelings)

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 9

Explorer
Oct 01, 2011
70
Well going on the "secret agent" thing dont forget that time in Polaris where we go to the Aurorical (I think thats how its spelt) and she talks to it in private before coming out dazed and a little shaken.
What if it showed her her parents or something that makes her side with Raven(like Raven hid her from xxxx)
and a bit of her future like she was shown her beating Spider/ told she would be his undoing then, thinking she could, she tries to beat him in Mirage only to be countered easily and captured.

Also what is Baba Yagas role in all this? Is she also an "agent" of raven or was her memory altered?

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
thatgrumpypanda on Jul 27, 2017 wrote:
(Part 2)

Also something I thought about "Child" (how it's almost always capitalized). It's either:

  1. Everyone is using it as a title, as that is what they are (Scorpion, Son of Spider)
  2. It's referring to a prophecy (Us, the Child of Light and Shadow)
  3. Some combination of the two

It's a bit of a stretch, but what if Grandmother Raven's child, Grandfather Spider's children, and the player are apart of another prophecy we haven't heard of yet. Right after Cob reveals himself for who he truly is, he says something about "writing a new prophecy". It may seem a little late to introduce it, but we didn't even hear Morganthe's full prophecy until Khrysalis part two.

(This discussion is giving me the sense that Empyrea is going to wreck my feelings)

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 9
I'm with you on the idea of Mellori having a sort of Harry Potter beginning, magical baby girl gets dropped off on Baba Yaga's doorstep with a mysterious vague note.

If that is the case and Mellori was directly related to Raven, why leave her to be raise by a stranger? Spider is locked away, and Raven is an ancient magical deity I highly doubt during that time there was anything that could harm or oppose her. So I don't think it's one of those "I'm sending you away to keep you safe" or "it's for your own good" situations. Unless Raven couldn't take care of Mellori, again Raven is an ancient magical deity who is capable of practically anything, I don't believe the words "I can't" exist in her vocabulary.

Let's pretend Mellori is Raven's direct descendant, as well as 100% human for a little bit. I understand Raven has at least a couple of cold sinister bones in her body, but we know everything Raven does is done for a very calculated reason, so she probably does not act on a whim. Given that, could Raven in her right mind send Mellori, her own child, a being of her direct lineage with unknown power and potential, a being that's capable of both great good and evil, to be raised by a stranger in the middle of nowhere? Would Raven be willing to take that kind of risk?

That being said let's pretend Mellori is Malistaire's daughter and still 100% human. Sylvia dies while Mellori is still very young (too young to really remember things) and Malistaire is quickly descending into insanity, his plans becoming ever more dangerous. Seeing this, Raven takes Mellori away to protect her from Malistaire's mad schemes and decides to make Mellori her own. After erasing all memory of Mellori prior to that point Raven decides her new "child" would do best raised by another human, Raven searches and leaves Mellori Baba Yaga's door step. Time goes on and Raven watches over Mellori from afar until we meet her in Polaris. When Mellori talks to the Auroracle Raven reveals herself to her.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
thatgrumpypanda on Jul 27, 2017 wrote:
(Part 2)

Also something I thought about "Child" (how it's almost always capitalized). It's either:

  1. Everyone is using it as a title, as that is what they are (Scorpion, Son of Spider)
  2. It's referring to a prophecy (Us, the Child of Light and Shadow)
  3. Some combination of the two

It's a bit of a stretch, but what if Grandmother Raven's child, Grandfather Spider's children, and the player are apart of another prophecy we haven't heard of yet. Right after Cob reveals himself for who he truly is, he says something about "writing a new prophecy". It may seem a little late to introduce it, but we didn't even hear Morganthe's full prophecy until Khrysalis part two.

(This discussion is giving me the sense that Empyrea is going to wreck my feelings)

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 9
Mellori says something rather interesting at the end of Mirage, "It never occurred to you that Grandmother Raven has Children too?", this statement would imply Raven has other children elsewhere in the Spiral. Perhaps Raven created them or they've been "collected" from families or situations where they have a great destiny but were also in great danger. So Raven saved them, then erased all memory of them prior to then, and took charge of their fates. Either raising them as her own or placing them in the care of those who could raise them, and revealing herself to them once they were old enough to understand why she did what she did.

Defender
Dec 26, 2016
135
TheLoreKeeper on Jul 28, 2017 wrote:
Mellori says something rather interesting at the end of Mirage, "It never occurred to you that Grandmother Raven has Children too?", this statement would imply Raven has other children elsewhere in the Spiral. Perhaps Raven created them or they've been "collected" from families or situations where they have a great destiny but were also in great danger. So Raven saved them, then erased all memory of them prior to then, and took charge of their fates. Either raising them as her own or placing them in the care of those who could raise them, and revealing herself to them once they were old enough to understand why she did what she did.
I see where you're coming from and if this turns out to be true, this could be used as an argument on whether or not Raven is secretly evil.

As for Grandmother Raven leaving Mellori to be raised by a stranger, maybe she had a feeling that Grandfather Spider would return and Mellori was basically "insurance". And she sent her away in an enclosed space where nobody would bother to look for (because of the batty old witch living there as well).

I think Raven knew what she was doing in sending her off to live with Baba Yaga. Maybe Baba Yaga even knew of her true nature?

I actually wondered "If Mellori actually IS Malistaire and Sylvia's daughter, why doesn't he try to look for her during his quest to wake up the Dragon Titan?", but then I guess he had a one track mind during that whole thing and didn't even give Mellori a second thought. Unless Grandmother Raven wiped his memories of her too?

I feel like Raven wouldn't tell her children the part about taking them away from their real parents. It might just be me, but I think they're more likely to side with her if she claimed to be their real mother. But that just might be my underlying feeling that Raven is kinda evil.

I hope we see Raven's other children, maybe one that's been around for a pretty long time at least and knows more of what's going on (I say this because it seems like Mellori is one of the, if not the, youngest) and is willing to tell us.

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 10

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
thatgrumpypanda on Jul 29, 2017 wrote:
I see where you're coming from and if this turns out to be true, this could be used as an argument on whether or not Raven is secretly evil.

As for Grandmother Raven leaving Mellori to be raised by a stranger, maybe she had a feeling that Grandfather Spider would return and Mellori was basically "insurance". And she sent her away in an enclosed space where nobody would bother to look for (because of the batty old witch living there as well).

I think Raven knew what she was doing in sending her off to live with Baba Yaga. Maybe Baba Yaga even knew of her true nature?

I actually wondered "If Mellori actually IS Malistaire and Sylvia's daughter, why doesn't he try to look for her during his quest to wake up the Dragon Titan?", but then I guess he had a one track mind during that whole thing and didn't even give Mellori a second thought. Unless Grandmother Raven wiped his memories of her too?

I feel like Raven wouldn't tell her children the part about taking them away from their real parents. It might just be me, but I think they're more likely to side with her if she claimed to be their real mother. But that just might be my underlying feeling that Raven is kinda evil.

I hope we see Raven's other children, maybe one that's been around for a pretty long time at least and knows more of what's going on (I say this because it seems like Mellori is one of the, if not the, youngest) and is willing to tell us.

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 10
I would say Malistaire's mind is very one track in life and in death, all he wants to do is bring Sylvia back and he's willing to crush any who get in his way. So when I mentioned Raven erasing all memory of Mellori from this includes any and all possible family. However, even if Raven didn't remove the memories, I don't think Malistaire would have bothered with her since he was so busy trying to resurrect Sylvia.

I also had another thought seeing as Raven has a bit of a dark side; what if Raven made a deal with Sylvia/Malistaire? This one is a little out there, and really unlikely but I think it's really interesting.

So idk for whatever reason Malistaire and Sylvia don't/can't have children (did I mention this one's a little depressing?). Knowing this Raven offers to use her powers to give them what they want but there's a catch. Raven will only do this on the condition that after a certain amount of time Raven would return for the child or should something happen to them the child would be hers then. Of course Sylvia dies, Malistaire goes insane, so Raven takes Mellori away and to make it easier/ to keep Mellori safe from Malistaire's madness Raven removes all memory of her from everyone that knew her/of her.

Geographer
Feb 28, 2014
960
All of you have interesting theories I too wounder if Grandfather Spider is Mellori's Father and Grandmother Raven hid Mellori from him to keep her safe for who knows why. It's possible Old Cob captured Mellori to Lure Grandmother Raven to him or will use Mellori as an arch in the means to get his heart back. Either way, Keep it coming! I'm enjoying listening to great minds at work about History.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
Patrick Ravenbane on Jul 30, 2017 wrote:
All of you have interesting theories I too wounder if Grandfather Spider is Mellori's Father and Grandmother Raven hid Mellori from him to keep her safe for who knows why. It's possible Old Cob captured Mellori to Lure Grandmother Raven to him or will use Mellori as an arch in the means to get his heart back. Either way, Keep it coming! I'm enjoying listening to great minds at work about History.
Glad to know someone is enjoying this.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
Patrick Ravenbane on Jul 30, 2017 wrote:
All of you have interesting theories I too wounder if Grandfather Spider is Mellori's Father and Grandmother Raven hid Mellori from him to keep her safe for who knows why. It's possible Old Cob captured Mellori to Lure Grandmother Raven to him or will use Mellori as an arch in the means to get his heart back. Either way, Keep it coming! I'm enjoying listening to great minds at work about History.
Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at it yourself? I'd love to hear what your personal theory is, based upon the information available, or anyone else's for that matter.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
thatgrumpypanda on Jul 29, 2017 wrote:
I see where you're coming from and if this turns out to be true, this could be used as an argument on whether or not Raven is secretly evil.

As for Grandmother Raven leaving Mellori to be raised by a stranger, maybe she had a feeling that Grandfather Spider would return and Mellori was basically "insurance". And she sent her away in an enclosed space where nobody would bother to look for (because of the batty old witch living there as well).

I think Raven knew what she was doing in sending her off to live with Baba Yaga. Maybe Baba Yaga even knew of her true nature?

I actually wondered "If Mellori actually IS Malistaire and Sylvia's daughter, why doesn't he try to look for her during his quest to wake up the Dragon Titan?", but then I guess he had a one track mind during that whole thing and didn't even give Mellori a second thought. Unless Grandmother Raven wiped his memories of her too?

I feel like Raven wouldn't tell her children the part about taking them away from their real parents. It might just be me, but I think they're more likely to side with her if she claimed to be their real mother. But that just might be my underlying feeling that Raven is kinda evil.

I hope we see Raven's other children, maybe one that's been around for a pretty long time at least and knows more of what's going on (I say this because it seems like Mellori is one of the, if not the, youngest) and is willing to tell us.

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 10
I still keep pondering if Raven is truly evil... I know many people have speculated this but I cannot bring myself to believe Raven and Spider are completely good or evil.

After speaking to the Chronocle in Mirage we see Raven and she says to us, "Judge me not for what you learned. If I chose otherwise, there would be no Spiral."

Those two sentences lead me to believe there is an even greater method to the madness that is the conflict between Spider and Raven.

I my mind I do not believe Raven is truly evil but rather something more akin to neutral good. Meaning she would uphold the greater good through mostly good means (i.e. telling the truth, following the law, etc...) however; if ultimately doing the right thing means breaking the rules than she wouldn't feel as morally conflicted (this not to say that she does not feel conflicted at all).

It seems very likely given what we have learned about Raven up to this point in the game. She stole Spider's heart not for sake of stealing it but so the Spiral, Ravenwood, we (the players) could have a universe in which to thrive and exist while still maintaining a sense of balance. Because good and evil cannot truly exist on their own, i.e. light is the absence of darkness and darkness is the absence of light, what would either one be without the other?

The Chronocle even says: "Their creation was flawed without Spider's presence, so she stole the broken Chaos Heart to charge the Spiral's essence."

I would also say Raven has been relatively forthcoming with everything. She let us learn about things like the Sky Anchor, the Spiral's Creation, etc... And yes she's relatively displeased with how much we now know, and she says it, "I understand what drove you to defy my servants, but this was unnecessary." Despite this, if Raven didn't want us to know the truth, she would have made sure no one could obtain this information.

Which brings me to ask the question, exactly who are our characters and what are/were we meant to do?

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
thatgrumpypanda on Jul 29, 2017 wrote:
I see where you're coming from and if this turns out to be true, this could be used as an argument on whether or not Raven is secretly evil.

As for Grandmother Raven leaving Mellori to be raised by a stranger, maybe she had a feeling that Grandfather Spider would return and Mellori was basically "insurance". And she sent her away in an enclosed space where nobody would bother to look for (because of the batty old witch living there as well).

I think Raven knew what she was doing in sending her off to live with Baba Yaga. Maybe Baba Yaga even knew of her true nature?

I actually wondered "If Mellori actually IS Malistaire and Sylvia's daughter, why doesn't he try to look for her during his quest to wake up the Dragon Titan?", but then I guess he had a one track mind during that whole thing and didn't even give Mellori a second thought. Unless Grandmother Raven wiped his memories of her too?

I feel like Raven wouldn't tell her children the part about taking them away from their real parents. It might just be me, but I think they're more likely to side with her if she claimed to be their real mother. But that just might be my underlying feeling that Raven is kinda evil.

I hope we see Raven's other children, maybe one that's been around for a pretty long time at least and knows more of what's going on (I say this because it seems like Mellori is one of the, if not the, youngest) and is willing to tell us.

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 10
On the flipside, what if Raven is evil? If she is than it would explain why she has such a burning desire to destroy Spider which theoretically would also destroy the Spiral.

To quote a line from the Dark Knight "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain." Perhaps Raven has been around so long that she's lost sight of her original purpose, whatever that might truly be.

Or perhaps her own view of her original purpose has become somewhat twisted, and over time has had so much subjective meaning added to it until anything could mean anything in her frame of reference. Allowing her to justify the an act like the destruction of the Spiral and everything in it, if it means Spider's death. This is a rather scary place to be, if it is the case than I feel Raven could possibly be an even greater threat to the Spiral than Spider himself.

OR perhaps the same forces that are sickening Bartelby are having some effect on Raven as well, driving her to this precarious point where all she desires is Spider's destruction even if that means the destroying the Spiral in the process.

Geographer
Feb 28, 2014
960
TheLoreKeeper on Aug 2, 2017 wrote:
Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at it yourself? I'd love to hear what your personal theory is, based upon the information available, or anyone else's for that matter.
I just did in my post.

Defender
Dec 26, 2016
135
TheLoreKeeper on Aug 2, 2017 wrote:
On the flipside, what if Raven is evil? If she is than it would explain why she has such a burning desire to destroy Spider which theoretically would also destroy the Spiral.

To quote a line from the Dark Knight "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain." Perhaps Raven has been around so long that she's lost sight of her original purpose, whatever that might truly be.

Or perhaps her own view of her original purpose has become somewhat twisted, and over time has had so much subjective meaning added to it until anything could mean anything in her frame of reference. Allowing her to justify the an act like the destruction of the Spiral and everything in it, if it means Spider's death. This is a rather scary place to be, if it is the case than I feel Raven could possibly be an even greater threat to the Spiral than Spider himself.

OR perhaps the same forces that are sickening Bartelby are having some effect on Raven as well, driving her to this precarious point where all she desires is Spider's destruction even if that means the destroying the Spiral in the process.
(hooray for Batman quotes!)

It looks like Raven did try to make it hard to find the information, with all the guarded temples and tests. She may not have wanted us to learn about this information because it would have made us judge Raven for what she had done.

I feel like Spider had done something in the First World to warrant Raven's wish for him to die. It's been so long since I've looked at the history of the original Titans, but I don't think we were given a reason for why the Titan war started?

What if Spider was responsible for the war occurring? Spider, the embodiment of chaos, might have done things for his own amusement, and Raven had to stop him multiple times. But causing the Titan war may have been the last straw for her. So she locked him away, for the safety of her creation.

So when she ordered us to destroy Spider, she knew that whether or not Spider lived or died, the Spiral would still end up getting destroyed. It's either die slowly through pain and suffering while she was forced to watch, or for the entire Spiral losing all its energy in one go and dying shortly after.

So maybe this is just a morbid way of doing the right thing for her.

We also have to remember that Bartelby didn't fall ill until after Spider was released (And the same for the Auroracle, it's a blink and you miss it moment, but she's sick as well). What if Shadow magic is the reason for them falling ill?

One thing to note as well, when we see her in Folorn Tayg to read about the Sundering, Raven admits her "vision is clouded", and she's unable to see how pure we are anymore. It's possible that Spider just being around causes her to lose her judgement skills, which may be another reason why she wants him gone, but she's being too excessive.

But what if Shadow magic caused them to get sick because they are unable to control the backlash?

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 26

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
thatgrumpypanda on Aug 4, 2017 wrote:
(hooray for Batman quotes!)

It looks like Raven did try to make it hard to find the information, with all the guarded temples and tests. She may not have wanted us to learn about this information because it would have made us judge Raven for what she had done.

I feel like Spider had done something in the First World to warrant Raven's wish for him to die. It's been so long since I've looked at the history of the original Titans, but I don't think we were given a reason for why the Titan war started?

What if Spider was responsible for the war occurring? Spider, the embodiment of chaos, might have done things for his own amusement, and Raven had to stop him multiple times. But causing the Titan war may have been the last straw for her. So she locked him away, for the safety of her creation.

So when she ordered us to destroy Spider, she knew that whether or not Spider lived or died, the Spiral would still end up getting destroyed. It's either die slowly through pain and suffering while she was forced to watch, or for the entire Spiral losing all its energy in one go and dying shortly after.

So maybe this is just a morbid way of doing the right thing for her.

We also have to remember that Bartelby didn't fall ill until after Spider was released (And the same for the Auroracle, it's a blink and you miss it moment, but she's sick as well). What if Shadow magic is the reason for them falling ill?

One thing to note as well, when we see her in Folorn Tayg to read about the Sundering, Raven admits her "vision is clouded", and she's unable to see how pure we are anymore. It's possible that Spider just being around causes her to lose her judgement skills, which may be another reason why she wants him gone, but she's being too excessive.

But what if Shadow magic caused them to get sick because they are unable to control the backlash?

Amber Dreamflower 120
Amber Frostflower 26
I will agree with you on the last bit. Part of me feels that since Cob was released from the Black Hole, his presence/powers are doing something that is having an affect on all these other ancient entities like Bartleby, Raven, the Auroracle, maybe even the Chronical too?

The effect on Bartleby is obvious, and if Raven is being affected by Spider than perhaps some form of clouded judgment is to be expected or maybe Raven is weaker than we think.

Since we first encountered her in Wintertusk, she has never again appeared in front of us physically. Which makes me wonder (with Bartleby being sick and all) if she's simply too busy to bother or if Spider's rise has weakened her. To what extent who can say... but it is an interesting thought.

Survivor
Dec 28, 2008
46
(Not serious) Plot twist: Mellori really is Baba Yaga's daughter, but Grandmother Raven has brainwashed both of them into thinking otherwise. Who's the father? Drumroll please...

...Cyrus Drake!

If this actually happens however I will...um...do something shocking, I guess.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
ZoeyDawn999 on Aug 19, 2017 wrote:
(Not serious) Plot twist: Mellori really is Baba Yaga's daughter, but Grandmother Raven has brainwashed both of them into thinking otherwise. Who's the father? Drumroll please...

...Cyrus Drake!

If this actually happens however I will...um...do something shocking, I guess.
That would be hilarious, Professor Drake would never hear the end of it!

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
Anyone else wanna take a crack at this? Cus' I'm bored and waiting for Empyrea to finally come and give me more juicy info to theorize on is killing me...


Survivor
Jan 07, 2013
38
Given that Raven is as old as time itself (presumably), I find it highly unlikely Malistaire would father Mellori. We don't know precisely the ages of our professors, but we can assume they live quite a long time given what they have accomplished in their lifetime (ex: Ambrose teaching Morganthe as a teen and then founding Ravenwood, as well as building it into the most renowned school of magic in the Spiral). Nevertheless, it stands to reason that Malistaire is much much younger than Raven. Even so, appearance doesn't really mean much as Mellori is no doubt not taking her true form. Any likeness is either coincidence or just updated graphics. I believe she is like Spider's children, made purely by Raven herself. Besides, we still have yet to actually confront Baba Yaga about lying to us about Mellori. I doubt KI would make the plot even more complex by adding the scenario that "Well Baba Yaga took care of her but she's Raven and Malistaire's daughter that Sylvia never knew about". That would just make things not fit right.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
Shadow of the Past on Oct 29, 2017 wrote:
Given that Raven is as old as time itself (presumably), I find it highly unlikely Malistaire would father Mellori. We don't know precisely the ages of our professors, but we can assume they live quite a long time given what they have accomplished in their lifetime (ex: Ambrose teaching Morganthe as a teen and then founding Ravenwood, as well as building it into the most renowned school of magic in the Spiral). Nevertheless, it stands to reason that Malistaire is much much younger than Raven. Even so, appearance doesn't really mean much as Mellori is no doubt not taking her true form. Any likeness is either coincidence or just updated graphics. I believe she is like Spider's children, made purely by Raven herself. Besides, we still have yet to actually confront Baba Yaga about lying to us about Mellori. I doubt KI would make the plot even more complex by adding the scenario that "Well Baba Yaga took care of her but she's Raven and Malistaire's daughter that Sylvia never knew about". That would just make things not fit right.
Firstly, and with the greatest respect, you seem to have missed a few key words from the earlier posted, I am talking about Mellori being the biological child of Malistaire and Sylvia Drake, not Malistaire and Raven.

Secondly, I don't question the relationship between Mellori and Raven. I simply question what the words "Child/Daughter of Raven" means. It is possible in both fictional life and real life for a child to call someone their mother and that "mother" be completely unrelated to them, and vice versa.

I do not think Mellori is a blood decent of Raven, I believe Mellori is more like an adopted child than an actual biological one. As it stands we do not truly know which Mellori is yet, it may yet be possible she has a form outside of her human one. But based upon her character's purpose it wouldn't really make sense.

One must remember that Mellori as a character was meant to be a sidekick/close friend for the wizard, according to an answer on KI Live several months ago. And it is clear that the creators have taken great care in building the character of Mellori to talk, think, and act as human as they possibly can. It wouldn't make sense for her to outshine the wizard.

And to take all that development that's been put into Mellori's humanity and dehumanize her by giving her some overpowered/demi-immortal alternate form would not only defeat her character's original purpose but also ruin her character.

In the Test Realm we learn are learning new info that might bolster Raven being more of a surrogate mother than a biological one. Sadly, because KI has made it very clear they don't want any spoiler's revealed for the test realm, and out of respect for that as well as the fear they'll delete my post, I am not going to talk about them specifically.

I will hazard to point out, in the intro of Empyrea there is something that was talked about earlier in the discussion appears to have proven true.

Raven gave Mellori to Baba Yaga, and Baba Yaga raised her as her own.

Defender
Jun 14, 2010
153
For those who may or may not be just joining this discussion allow me to explain my theory from the story telling perspective:

Malistaire and Sylvia had a daughter, that being Mellori.

When Sylvia died Mellori was too young to truly remember things. Sylvia's death drove Malistaire insane and his plan to restore Sylvia to life put Mellori in danger.

Knowing/Seeing this Raven, saw an opportunity and took Mellori away from her father. Then theoretically erased all memory of her from everyone who knew her/ knew of her existence and/or anyone had come into contact with her.

From there Raven gave Mellori Baba Yaga, and Baba Yaga raised her as her own child, this no doubt left Mellori with some questions.

After the wizard confront the Auroracle Mellori stays behind a moment to ask the her own questions. In this moment Raven reveals herself to Mellori and claims her as her own, in order to gain Mellori's trust. Raven then either gives Mellori the means to destroy Spider and/or puts her on the path to aid in Spider's destruction.

Finally in Mirage Mellori is to deal the final blow to Spider should the wizard fail. When The wizard decides against killing Spider and Mellori must fulfill the command Raven gave her to kill Spider if the wizard doesn't.

Neither truly realized how powerful Spider still was. Spider successfully Capture's Mellori, and she has now become the key to him regaining the Chaos Heart.

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