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bosses don't cheat

AuthorMessage
Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
For over a year I have been hearing about how bosses cheat. How unfair it is, how it sets a bad example. I would like to point out. That several of these bosses aren't human and could be said to have natural defenses that our characters are not capable of having. "But they are casting spells for free!" That is merely the way the game handles combat. Do you honestly think melee type enemies are actually summoning imps and skeletons to fight for them? It would just get kinda boring if all a creature did was summon itself to make a swordslash or hammer bash over and over. I usually think of these as the soldier or brutish looking critter making a melee attack charged with elemental energy. Maybe the the ward is the critter actually holding up his shield or being on guard, but since we are wizards we see it as a hovering ward. You used a wand spell on a fire elemental and have a damage-over-time circling you now? Maybe it cast a spell for free because it is so good at fire magic, or maybe wand spells cause you to get to close, and since the thing is made of fire your robes caught fire from the heat.

It is easier to tell people, "that boss cheats." as a warning to be careful. But I don't actually look the bosses ability to counter attack as cheating. Perhaps It is just because I am used to table top games where we had to imagine everything, and any enemy that was more than a thug had amazing abilities that our characters could never have.

Hero
Jul 30, 2012
771
When people say the bosses are cheating it usually means they are breaking the understood rules of the game. They are doing things outside the defined gameplay structure that is initially explained to the players.

The turn based concept of a game comes from the idea that everybody has an equal amount of time to perform an action (old school D&D days). Some actions require additional time to perform (multiple turns). The game has already defined how long (turns) certain spells take to cast. Some bosses completely defy this by performing several turns per round. Sometimes three or four actions!

I have also encountered bosses that make your entire team lose a turn. Example: occasionally fighting the final boss in the Geographic Society (Marelybone) your team's turn gets completely skipped. No stuns or fizzles... it just skips your team for a turn.

Unexplained defiance of the understood rules of a game is called "cheating".

It is generally accepted that rules of a game can change. For example the critical concepts don't break the rules, they are an addition to the game.

Geographer
Feb 19, 2010
935
Zebulous Newt on Mar 23, 2013 wrote:
For over a year I have been hearing about how bosses cheat. How unfair it is, how it sets a bad example. I would like to point out. That several of these bosses aren't human and could be said to have natural defenses that our characters are not capable of having. "But they are casting spells for free!" That is merely the way the game handles combat. Do you honestly think melee type enemies are actually summoning imps and skeletons to fight for them? It would just get kinda boring if all a creature did was summon itself to make a swordslash or hammer bash over and over. I usually think of these as the soldier or brutish looking critter making a melee attack charged with elemental energy. Maybe the the ward is the critter actually holding up his shield or being on guard, but since we are wizards we see it as a hovering ward. You used a wand spell on a fire elemental and have a damage-over-time circling you now? Maybe it cast a spell for free because it is so good at fire magic, or maybe wand spells cause you to get to close, and since the thing is made of fire your robes caught fire from the heat.

It is easier to tell people, "that boss cheats." as a warning to be careful. But I don't actually look the bosses ability to counter attack as cheating. Perhaps It is just because I am used to table top games where we had to imagine everything, and any enemy that was more than a thug had amazing abilities that our characters could never have.
Usually what a player means by "that boss cheats" is that the bosses play goes against the natural game mechanics and is something that we cannot do so in the sense it is cheating.
Like when a boss casts an 8 pip spell with 2 pips or when the boss casts a spell as an instant after your spell for free.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
Zebulous Newt on Mar 23, 2013 wrote:
For over a year I have been hearing about how bosses cheat. How unfair it is, how it sets a bad example. I would like to point out. That several of these bosses aren't human and could be said to have natural defenses that our characters are not capable of having. "But they are casting spells for free!" That is merely the way the game handles combat. Do you honestly think melee type enemies are actually summoning imps and skeletons to fight for them? It would just get kinda boring if all a creature did was summon itself to make a swordslash or hammer bash over and over. I usually think of these as the soldier or brutish looking critter making a melee attack charged with elemental energy. Maybe the the ward is the critter actually holding up his shield or being on guard, but since we are wizards we see it as a hovering ward. You used a wand spell on a fire elemental and have a damage-over-time circling you now? Maybe it cast a spell for free because it is so good at fire magic, or maybe wand spells cause you to get to close, and since the thing is made of fire your robes caught fire from the heat.

It is easier to tell people, "that boss cheats." as a warning to be careful. But I don't actually look the bosses ability to counter attack as cheating. Perhaps It is just because I am used to table top games where we had to imagine everything, and any enemy that was more than a thug had amazing abilities that our characters could never have.
cheats are called cheats because they allow the bosses to shortcut gameplay dynamics (by casting out of turn or for free) or give them considerable leverage over players.

i have also played rpgs like abberrant and vampire: masquerade, in which the enemies were tough and had some amazing powers (surreptitious quantum bolt, anyone?), but they weren't overpowered, in the sense that the game rules didn't apply to them.

-von

Explorer
Dec 24, 2008
83
really? bosses dont cheat? YES, they do. it doesnt matter whether they were human or not. casting spells out of turn is called cheating. summoning -90 sheilds almost every time you get attacked is called cheating. also, when you said that "maybe its just the critter being on guard", how come we can cast things that look just like that? no offence, but your lying, end of story.

Erica ShadowRunner lvl 87 Balance~over and out

Survivor
Jul 28, 2012
8
right. but some bosses (chester drores or what ever) skip you

Explorer
Dec 01, 2012
80
There are bosses who cheat. Like in Avalon, there is a boss (I forgot the name, but it's a dragon thing) that will use a really high damage meteor strike (that 'apparently' costs no pips, because, of course, it's a cheat) that does about two thousand damage, and then take it's real turn. For more examples, look on YouTube for hard boss battles.

Brandon SoulThief
Currently Level 45, but looking for good ways to level up

Defender
Feb 27, 2009
137
Brandon SoulThief on Mar 27, 2013 wrote:
There are bosses who cheat. Like in Avalon, there is a boss (I forgot the name, but it's a dragon thing) that will use a really high damage meteor strike (that 'apparently' costs no pips, because, of course, it's a cheat) that does about two thousand damage, and then take it's real turn. For more examples, look on YouTube for hard boss battles.

Brandon SoulThief
Currently Level 45, but looking for good ways to level up
The dragon is Jabberwock.

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3175
Brandon SoulThief on Mar 27, 2013 wrote:
There are bosses who cheat. Like in Avalon, there is a boss (I forgot the name, but it's a dragon thing) that will use a really high damage meteor strike (that 'apparently' costs no pips, because, of course, it's a cheat) that does about two thousand damage, and then take it's real turn. For more examples, look on YouTube for hard boss battles.

Brandon SoulThief
Currently Level 45, but looking for good ways to level up
you are correct:

in addition to his normal turn, the jabberwock (creepy fire-dragon thing) casts a free meteor strike every 3 rounds that increases in damage each time he casts it... but there is one caveat: following the meteor, he puts a 200% trap on himself. therefore, you need to hit him that round or it will disappear. the trick is to pack lots and lots of fire shields; quench (dispels) will also come in handy.

once you figure out the cheat, it's easy enough to counter it.

-von
promethean sorceress, archmage necromancer, trans diviner, the rest.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
And, your pets who cast spells... after a random turn. Sometimes several times in a round, sometimes after an opponents turn... What is that called?

If you cast the correct spells or time things right some of these bosses cannot cheat at all. Like bosses that throw up shields or who nuke the board each time you cast a spell that costs less than, or more than, four pips. Simply avoid casting the wrong spell, so the counter spells never trigger, and the battle resembles a normal boss battle.

Casting for reduced pip cost is cheating?! But... there are two treasure cards that let us do that already... When you use them on a spell the spell becomes a treasure card and costs one or two less. How do you know that the beastie isn't a grand master of the sun school and can cast more powerful versions of those discount spells naturally? Using one of those cards to enchant a spell is a "free action" in D&D terms.
There are plenty of spells we cannot learn, but only cast as treasure cards, yet monsters use them all the time. Magma man, bolt beetle, or myth imp anyone?

As for casting a super strong fire spell, really? I would hope that the strongest fire creature in the region would have a base fire damage stat of at least 300. I know some wizards can get their main elemental power stat to a bit above 100 these days. So I would expect a boss to be at least able to more than double that. Of course a 25% blade would add 75 to 300 rather than adding 25 to 100. But what can you do? The thing probably takes baths in lava, without needing to use any protective spells. I don't believe any of our wizards could survive such an activity.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
As for lying? I am speculating and guessing. A guess, right or wrong, is not a lie.
I am making up reasons, for fun, as to how a boss can do what it does and still follow the rules.

No, I am not going to start each paragraph with "I believe, I think, or In my opinion"

In my opinion (happy?) that makes the sentence structure clumsy and long.

Did you ever think that possibly there are several sets of rules? One set governs how we wizards fight, and quite possibly another different set of rules governs how "cheating" bosses fight.

I mean these Cheating bosses still follow rules. The critter that sets the battle field on fire every three turns can't do it in two turns, and he has to put a 200% trap on himself when he does. That is a set of rules he always follows. The boss that casts bartelby, for free at the end of your turn, each time you cast a spell that costs two pips or less? He only does it when you cast a spell that costs two pips or less. As long as you don't use those spells he simply cannot cast bartelby, for free, ever. Sounds like he is following a rule there.

At my house we have a rule, no cats on the table. If a cat sits on the table the cat is breaking a rule. If I sit on the table I am not breaking any rules, I am not a cat.

Yes I am making things up! I am also having a grand time!
I think (there is another one) it is fun to apply logic to observations about a make-believe world, to make sense of what I see in the game.
I suppose it sounded like: "this is why you are wrong about bosses cheating."
I really just wanted to present my point of view, as an alternative.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
I suppose a barbarian boar with a shield and a spear could cast a ward. It could also just raise it's shield higher. Of course that would take a separate animation which could be a pain to include. Possibly KI doesn't want to bother to pay for such an animation. In any case the boar makes it's only spell casting animation and a ward appears around it instead.

I am just using my imagination. My character is a wizard in cloth and has no actual shield. Given his lack of choices, I think my necromancer is going to cast a ward to defend himself from the boar. Maybe the boar is casting a midnight sprite spell, or maybe he dipped that spear in a weakpoison and that attack just feels as bad as getting hit by a midnight sprite.

Game developers are only willing to animate a certain amount of detail. Game developer companies are only willing to pay people to animate a certain level of detail also. My imagination, however, is limitless. I can happily pick up where animation funding ends and imagine whatever I wish.

If you want to say the samoori cast a blade that is fine. That is what is displayed on the screen.
I like to think the same samoori has just focused his chi and is prepared to deliver a major attack. It would be nice to have that displayed on the screen, but I am willing to give the animators a break.

Geographer
Feb 19, 2010
935
Zebulous Newt on Mar 29, 2013 wrote:
And, your pets who cast spells... after a random turn. Sometimes several times in a round, sometimes after an opponents turn... What is that called?

If you cast the correct spells or time things right some of these bosses cannot cheat at all. Like bosses that throw up shields or who nuke the board each time you cast a spell that costs less than, or more than, four pips. Simply avoid casting the wrong spell, so the counter spells never trigger, and the battle resembles a normal boss battle.

Casting for reduced pip cost is cheating?! But... there are two treasure cards that let us do that already... When you use them on a spell the spell becomes a treasure card and costs one or two less. How do you know that the beastie isn't a grand master of the sun school and can cast more powerful versions of those discount spells naturally? Using one of those cards to enchant a spell is a "free action" in D&D terms.
There are plenty of spells we cannot learn, but only cast as treasure cards, yet monsters use them all the time. Magma man, bolt beetle, or myth imp anyone?

As for casting a super strong fire spell, really? I would hope that the strongest fire creature in the region would have a base fire damage stat of at least 300. I know some wizards can get their main elemental power stat to a bit above 100 these days. So I would expect a boss to be at least able to more than double that. Of course a 25% blade would add 75 to 300 rather than adding 25 to 100. But what can you do? The thing probably takes baths in lava, without needing to use any protective spells. I don't believe any of our wizards could survive such an activity.
On the 3rd paragraph down in your post says exactly what everyone wanted from you. The acknowledgement that they do cheat, I understand what you mean but you have to agree they do cheat.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
lastdaysgunslinger on Mar 29, 2013 wrote:
On the 3rd paragraph down in your post says exactly what everyone wanted from you. The acknowledgement that they do cheat, I understand what you mean but you have to agree they do cheat.
It also says that we can do the same thing, by using treasure cards. I can put over thirty elucidate or simplify treasure cards in a deck. Time consuming to collect, but it can be done. If I use reshuffle I can cast everyone of them during that battle. Even better, all of the enchanted cards in my discard get shuffled back into deck along with the original spells! As long as I could cast reshuffle I would never run out of cards. Of course, I am also limited to how much mana I have.

Of course no monster has mana, not even the little ones on unicorn way. For that matter none of them have a maximum deck size, or a maximum number of each spell they can cast... no monster ever casts reshuffle.
It is almost like there are several sets of rules... One for players, one for normal monsters and small bosses, and another set of rules for the largest bosses.

You see this all the time in games though. If a game has a dungeon master or a mastermind that player will get to do several things, and it is listed in his section of the rule book, that players who are the heroes cannot do. Of course KI isn't about to let us look at the bosses' rule book. We get to figure out how each boss works, and which rules it follows, by using our brains.

Hero
Jul 30, 2012
771
Your posts give the impression you haven't played the game much at all, although you indicate you have played for a year. Have you been to Wysteria yet?? Cheating in Wizard101 is first introduced there and it is clearly called cheating by the NPCs reapeatedly.

You can use words however you want, but language is made up of conventions so we all understand each other. In the case of Wizard101 the game introduced a concept and called it cheating and players continue to follow this convention.

Not sure why you would be debating pre-defined terms within the game that are also generally accepted by convention.

Geographer
Feb 19, 2010
935
Zebulous Newt on Mar 30, 2013 wrote:
It also says that we can do the same thing, by using treasure cards. I can put over thirty elucidate or simplify treasure cards in a deck. Time consuming to collect, but it can be done. If I use reshuffle I can cast everyone of them during that battle. Even better, all of the enchanted cards in my discard get shuffled back into deck along with the original spells! As long as I could cast reshuffle I would never run out of cards. Of course, I am also limited to how much mana I have.

Of course no monster has mana, not even the little ones on unicorn way. For that matter none of them have a maximum deck size, or a maximum number of each spell they can cast... no monster ever casts reshuffle.
It is almost like there are several sets of rules... One for players, one for normal monsters and small bosses, and another set of rules for the largest bosses.

You see this all the time in games though. If a game has a dungeon master or a mastermind that player will get to do several things, and it is listed in his section of the rule book, that players who are the heroes cannot do. Of course KI isn't about to let us look at the bosses' rule book. We get to figure out how each boss works, and which rules it follows, by using our brains.
I see your way of thinking but answer me this can we cast 2 times in one turn? Not our pets but us as players, Like could i ever cast a spell then on your turn cast a interupt that damages my opponent. Since the answer is no to that question then the bosses cheat because they can do things outside of the games frame of rules.

Now i know you are going to mention that maybe they have different rules as you suggested above but if thats the case then why dont all mobs use those rules?

You must admit they cheat right, Because if you cant see it then im worried for you friend.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
"cheating" was first introduced in celestia. there is a special alter you can unlock that will allow you to summon at least six different bosses, each of which has a retaliatory gimmick. All of them punish you for using wand spells. One if you cast spells with a pip cost below 4, another when you cast spells that cost more than three pips, another that retaliates when your team casts two spells from the same school back to back. I believe the newest version of crab ally also predates wisteria, and has a dungeon with three gimmick bosses (the last of which is based on timing and is quite fun.)

I view pets as equipment. They increase my stats, add spell cards to my spell deck, and now cast spells for me at the end of random turns. I choose to breed a pet with specific abilities, and positive spells they cast, if they target, always target me. They are my abilities, and I took the time to earn them. A pet is a trinket that happens to move, and I "forged" it myself. Indeed If I had an amulet that could cast spells randomly, you could say that I could cast that spell for free, or that my amulet casts the spell for free. I am still wearing it and I am the source of the spell. There is a boss in wisteria that punishes you for casting healing spells, if your pet happens to cast sprightly you get punished also, the boss can't tell the difference between you and your pet.

If pets would cast their spells in response to a specific trigger/spell, or every two or three turns, I would be indistinguishable from one of these, "cheating," bosses. Just wait for it, I am sure pets will get there.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
Yes the students in wisteria are supposed to be cheating. For the story you are supposed to be having a series of interschool pvp matches to win a trophy. The difference is the students who cheat are at a level of study that is actually below your own. They are cheating because they are not beings who are made of magic and elemental forces, they are lazy students. The only explanation that would work for the story is that they found a way to break the rules of combat.
When you do deal with exotic fantastical creatures the npc's tell you to watch out for that creatures special ability or skill. the do not tell you the ancient or terrifying critter is cheating, at most they will tell you that it is a cunning foe.

(an exception would be the grandmaster's tower in wizard city where again you are supposed to be fighting mere wizards, not highly skilled or ancient elemental forces.... (that tower predates even celestia by the way. so ya, wisteria was totally when these "cheating" bosses were first introduced.)

As for my experience. When I first started playing pets were mearly decorations, the level 58 school pets were the exception, and would give you a 5% power pip chance boost and a card. There was no pet breeding at that time. I raised a necromancer to level 50, took a break until the level cap was raised to sixty, then took a much longer break until winter tusk was released. Raised a storm wizard to around lvl 30 and a fire to the 20's Then took a break that lasted several months. I have recently come back to take a look around. I started this topic because I was amazed that after so long people are still complaining about bosses that retaliate or have timed abilities.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
As for the students in wisteria warning you about cheating contestants. There is a certain theft that happens early in the story line that would get you disqualified from the tournament altogether, and that has nothing to do with fighting, but would be considered cheating.

Why don't all mobs get a free cast every few turns, or retaliate each time you cast a charm or ward? Because the normal mobs are supposed to be local wildlife, dimwitted thugs, or adversaries with skill equal to, or only slightly above your own.
If a boss must be fought to advance in the main story, chances are it will have the same abilities as a regular mob, the boss will simply be larger.
For a boss to get the special abilities, that boss has to be either entirely optional, or it has to be a world or dungeon boss. There are several bosses that you don't ever have to fight, they are on side paths and have little impact on the main plot. Most of them have a rare or crown shop item they can possibly drop. These are most likely to have extra abilities. It makes farming for the item a bit more challenging than spamming your best spell with blades and traps over and over again. This type of boss may have become more common in the higher level areas I haven't set foot in avalon or azeteca so I don't know. I do know that players used to ask for bosses to be more challenging without merely having a colossal number of hp and resist.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
I maintain: from a story point of view, very few bosses cheat. From a mechanical point of view, bosses are obviously following a very definite set of rules.

Kinda funny. I fight a squid boss and I get a negative accuracy charm whenever I cast a single target damage spell. I don't say, "that is so unfair! the boss cheats!" I think to myself: " it is a squid, the debuff is called covered in ink, sounds reasonable."
I am all for immersion and roleplaying my character, and then I think of my pet as an equip and not a companion...
Perhaps it is just semantics.

Unless someone has anything else to add, I am done with this discussion.

p.s. (If, in future, some may cast pet talents are added that respond to enemy spells, I will necro this thread so fast... and I will say I told you so. )

Hero
Jul 30, 2012
771
Zebulus said:

"cheating" was first introduced in celestia. there is a special alter you can unlock that will allow you to summon at least six different bosses, each of which has a retaliatory gimmick."

Wizards can enter Wysteria at level 25 (as opposed to level 48 to get into Celestia). As I mentioned in an earlier post it is in Wysteria that the concept of gameplay actions happening outside the standard turn-based system is called cheating. And you are told this over and over and over!

Although Celestia was released before Wysteria, most of us are playing wizards in the present, not the past. Wysteria was released Aug 2011 and my time machine is busted. Zebulus -> its time for you to create a new wizard and travel the spiral! You aren't going to successfully re-define words that are part of the game! Aint gonna happen.

From the enemy point-of-view do we cheat? Absolutely. Our pets cheat the turn system (enemy don't even get pets!). Friends port into an established battle. We can resurrect defeated team mates. Team Mates can flee and port back (after changing gear, spell deck etc.). There are lots of things we can do that can be called cheating. So what exactly was your point??

Happy Wizarding!

Geographer
Mar 12, 2013
923
The proper sports terminology for deliberately giving contestants in a game some sort of starting or compensatory advantage, is "handicapping".

Although this word has fallen out of favor because it is similar to an old, crude word for disability.

If you are using it to refer to sideboarding, using a different item or set of items, etc. going into a battle, then it describes what's going on a lot better than cheating, which implies willfully breaking the game rules in some way that hurts the community.

When I face Nightshade and his storm minion, I swap out my Fire Shields and Thermal Shields, and swap in Storm Prism. I replace my standard storm wand with a life or myth wand. I use choker of ferocity to give me a troll to finish off the minion. I may also stock my sideboard with Seraph and other life cards to heal better and finish off Nightshade. I may also swap pets and use a healing pet instead of a storm or death pet. All of these measures, I am handicapping myself against a Storm and a Death opponent. They are not cheating, but regular parts of the game. The fact that they are done before stepping into the circle makes them handicapping and not tactical play choices. It gives me a permanent advantage, one the boss can't see coming until the first spell is cast.

I view boss advantages in much the same way. If someone is cheating, it means they are breaking the rules (and possibly laws) for the express purpose of getting something for nothing or hurting others. In the storyline the bosses may indeed be scoundrels and villains, but in the game mechanics they are programmed to do what any good mage would do - just trying to even the odds.

Hero
Jul 30, 2012
771
I think the annoying aspect within the game is not the regular cheating bosses, but the bosses that have crazy cheats that are almost impossible to beat unless you know ahead what cheats to expect. Some of these bosses are in dungeons and take 20-30 minutes to reach just to get killed (aaargghhh!). With minimal or no in-game hints or warnings.

But then you do a search on the internet, learn the weird cheat trick or pattern and the boss becomes very simple to defeat. Often the cheat is based on a completely illogical set of circumstances, like you must have a blade at all times or else he blasts with something.

Anyway, requiring the gamer to pause the game for a quick search on the internet for the cheat pattern doesn't seam very wizardy to me. It breaks any character immersion that might have existed.

Squire
Jan 21, 2010
557
I admire those first few wizards, the very first who fight a new boss. They have to figure out the bosses gimmick from scratch, because there is no information on the internet at that time. Though these days, I guess such wizards only exist on the test realm.