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Another Death Rant

2
AuthorMessage
Survivor
Aug 08, 2012
3
anecorbie on May 6, 2018 wrote:
Slow building up for damage attacks is fine - IF you're soloing. But if you're in a team up and literally just building pips, the others have a reason to complain; if everyone did as you do, the entire team could get wiped out within those 7 rounds.
Why can't you blade then use Poison - it's just as effective as Skeletal Dragon without waiting for those pips and then you can place those traps during the DoT rounds. Or use Wraith if you need to heal, the others in the team up are there to help each other; what they see is that you aren't fighting at all.
I'm a death wizard and I generally solo, but in team-up situations, I know that taking time for an ultimate hit isn't going to help the team, as you said the power hitters will kill before you get everything you want in your hand.
I can understand (now) the difference between soloing and being in a team.
Here's the thing though : I always try, no matter what, there's never been a time where I'm just sitting and drooling at the screen.
In a team I do blade, but I don't really carry poison, I always end up discarding it.
I'll keep your advice in mind though.

In regards to big hitters and not being able to do anything, I meant more :
All I can do is blade or get one trap in before its all over next round.
I dont really know what to do there.

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1443
Victoria FireHeart on May 6, 2018 wrote:
I wasn't judging you, I was trying to understand where you were coming from. Your posts about actually being criticised were not yet visible when I responded.

The OP was talking about battles that are over in 3-4 rounds and he was often after the hitter so unable to participate as much as he'd like. I'm not sure how telling him not to feint, when it's one of the best boosts he can offer the team, is really helping him be more useful in battle and less likely to be accused of doing nothing. If he holds of feinting as long as you suggested the battle will be over and he won't have done anything to contribute to the kill.

No offence was intended. We can all play as we want and agree to disagree on some things.
I have never told anyone they can't do x. I have never told anyone they cannot feint.

For the final boss, the Oni, I asked him if he could wait a few rounds before using feint, so that we could remove any shields that were placed, give ourselves a chance to 'pip up' and so our big hits would have maximum effect when we used them.
"If he holds of feinting as long as you suggested the battle will be over and he won't have done anything to contribute to the kill."
That never happened either.

I never told him not to hit. In fact he hit more than I did throughout the dungeon in which I continually deferred to him, up until the Oni battle -- which I also warned him was due as soon as we killed the first set of enemies in that room, and which he hadn't known was due. So then he was prepared for that Oni when it did show up. We teamed together well and no one was "inhibited."

In the last dungeon for which I was scolded for not saying "you're welcome" properly enough, the guy was sarcastic throughout. The next time I logged into Wiz, he messaged me so fast I didn't even get all of his message. I had to ask him to repeat it. He wanted me to port immediately to a boss battle. When I said I'd be there in a moment, as I had just gotten in, he basically told me to get lost. No one was "squashed" or whatever I was accused of in that instance, that time, either. Nor did I do anything wrong to anyone either time.

The way it was portrayed both times was the opposite to how it was, which points to why perhaps people shouldn't be told what they "should've" done by others who weren't there. I can't tell everything that occurred in every instance, for privacy or space or topic concerns. It's also ironic I was told what to do/not to do, or say, each time, while being scolded for supposedly telling others what to do/say.

There's nothing wrong in working out a strategy for battle, which can sometimes include asking someone to wait before hitting or wait before feinting.

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1443
anecorbie on May 6, 2018 wrote:
Slow building up for damage attacks is fine - IF you're soloing. But if you're in a team up and literally just building pips, the others have a reason to complain; if everyone did as you do, the entire team could get wiped out within those 7 rounds.
Why can't you blade then use Poison - it's just as effective as Skeletal Dragon without waiting for those pips and then you can place those traps during the DoT rounds. Or use Wraith if you need to heal, the others in the team up are there to help each other; what they see is that you aren't fighting at all.
I'm a death wizard and I generally solo, but in team-up situations, I know that taking time for an ultimate hit isn't going to help the team, as you said the power hitters will kill before you get everything you want in your hand.
Sounds like what I've been saying?

Why do something that is made for big hits before anyone has a chance to use it, because they won't have enough pips for it to matter, for 2-3 more rounds at the least.

Why put something in place that means it will be wasted if someone uses a wand hit to remove a shield from that enemy.

Use one's school blade (goes for any school, since many people train death through feint just as many train life through Satyr) which will only affect oneself (unless other team members of that school) rather than feint which impacts everyone in the team.

As I've been saying too, all along, standing waiting to pip up to make that one big hit so feint will matter, can lead to the team taking a lot of damage, even dying. I've seen that happen too. Working together, which could include asking someone not to feint for 2-3 rounds, or working together and timing the feint and blades and traps for that ultimate one and done hit, keeps the team safer and gets the boss killed and battle done with much more efficiently.

Of course some things depend on the battle/boss/boss cheats, too, but overall, I can't see what's wrong with using feint as a team player, which includes strategizing with one's actual teammates rather than just slapping down feint on everybody in rounds 1-3, usually beginning with the boss.

Nor do I tell anyone "you can't feint" or "you can't hit," any more so than someone asking me to wait to hit or blade or not to blade or trap in this battle because it activates a boss cheat, is telling me I "can't" let alone "inhibiting" me into feeing I "can't ever." I see nothing wrong with waiting or using things strategically or expressing suggestions for strategy during battle.

Is that what you were saying too?

A+ Student
Dec 24, 2009
1842
exp613 on May 7, 2018 wrote:
Uh oh, it's time for some MATHEMATICS to come to the rescue!!

Freshta you said the following:
"When the Feint is on, you don't need to remove the Tower Shield. The Feint is +70% damage added, while the Tower is -50%. With the Feint on, the Tower will be used up and +20% damage remains in place. Also, a Feint will completely negate any 70% shield, as if it isn't there. "

While it is true you don't need to do anything your logic about feints negating shields is not quite there. Let's assume that we have a spell that does 100 damage. If you have a feint that will boost the damage to 170 damage.

100*1.7= 170 damage. (Note that I use 1.7, you can do 100*.7, that is the extra damage so you'd need to add the original 100 damage, but to same time I will be using the first method.)

Similarly with a shield it will reduce the 100 damage to the following:

Tower=100*.5=50damage
School double shield=100*.3=30 damage (again you can think of it as how much damage will go through or as that percent will be blocked by the shield so 100*.7=70 and 100-70=30 damage.)

Now let's extend the example.

If I put a feint and they put a school shield they are not equally negated: observe.

(Initial Damage)X(Feint Multiplier)X(Shield Multiplier)

School: 100*1.7*0.3= 51 damage
Tower: 100*1.7*.5= 85 damage

So a feint does not negate the shield. The feint would only turn the -50% shield into a -15% shield. Which depending on your play style and damage your dealing may or may not be important. Trying to single feint through a school shield essentially turns it into a Tower Shield at about -50%.

Therefore you'd need two feints to cancel out the one Tower Shield (and it would only be a +44.5% trap) It's even worse for the school shields (-70%) as you'd need three feints to get out of the hole and get a +47.4% trap.

So bottom line- if you can, it's worth it to remove the shield via wand, Shatter, Pierce, pierce, critical, Steal etc. It would effectively turn your 40% trap into a 70% one again.
We're talking high level wizards, most of whom have innate pierce in their gear. For example, my level 90 Death has 15% and my 124 Fire has 25%.

Run your numbers again with gear-provided pierce factored in and you'll come up with results that put the school 70% shields on the same level as Tower shields, and Towers become basically nothing. Just as I posted earlier. While it's true that I don't use a calculator during battles, I'm familiar enough with my typical damage patterns that I know placing a Feint on top of a shield will usually get me close to the amount of damage I'd have done without the shield there.

Yes, I make an effort to remove a shield if it's possible to do so under the circumstances, but when it's not I just place a Feint and hit through the shield. With my Fire's 25% pierce, she comes out about even. With my Death, the damage is a little bit reduced but nowhere near 50%...

"So a feint does not negate the shield. The feint would only turn the -50% shield into a -15% shield."

^^And since my Death has 15% innate pierce, that shield effectively doesn't exist.

Alia Misthaven

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1443
Jamesdeanann on May 7, 2018 wrote:
I can understand (now) the difference between soloing and being in a team.
Here's the thing though : I always try, no matter what, there's never been a time where I'm just sitting and drooling at the screen.
In a team I do blade, but I don't really carry poison, I always end up discarding it.
I'll keep your advice in mind though.

In regards to big hitters and not being able to do anything, I meant more :
All I can do is blade or get one trap in before its all over next round.
I dont really know what to do there.
Re "I don't really know what to do there."

I think in a team where everyone's meeting for the first time it's always nice if people ask if anyone has a preference how they play, before they unleash a big kill-all hit.

People don't always do that, so that means, if you do have a preference, you might have to speak up for yourself at the outset. If you wish to get a hit in, then in your own words, perhaps ask if anyone minds if you get a hit in before killing them all. You might get all sorts of reactions, but you've had your say. If it matters enough to you, and no one offers to defer to others' wishes outright, then it pretty much leaves, speak up or the others will take silence as assent.

Also remember you can always do another team up and hope for results more to your wishes.

It's a mixed bag when we do these random team ups. Most bosses though, are ones you can do 100,000 times if you wish to.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1270
Freshta on May 8, 2018 wrote:
We're talking high level wizards, most of whom have innate pierce in their gear. For example, my level 90 Death has 15% and my 124 Fire has 25%.

Run your numbers again with gear-provided pierce factored in and you'll come up with results that put the school 70% shields on the same level as Tower shields, and Towers become basically nothing. Just as I posted earlier. While it's true that I don't use a calculator during battles, I'm familiar enough with my typical damage patterns that I know placing a Feint on top of a shield will usually get me close to the amount of damage I'd have done without the shield there.

Yes, I make an effort to remove a shield if it's possible to do so under the circumstances, but when it's not I just place a Feint and hit through the shield. With my Fire's 25% pierce, she comes out about even. With my Death, the damage is a little bit reduced but nowhere near 50%...

"So a feint does not negate the shield. The feint would only turn the -50% shield into a -15% shield."

^^And since my Death has 15% innate pierce, that shield effectively doesn't exist.

Alia Misthaven
We are not talking about high level wizards. We were talking about killing too fast and when to use a feint as mentioned by a level 63 Necromancer. Pierce (excluding jewels) is not really introduced until level 80 when we first have the spear spell become available. It becomes more mainstream upon receiving your school version of Artorius and yes with level 90 and Khyrsalis and Shrike etc. Before going to Khyrsallis, Pierce is relatively useless outside of a few select bosses and PVP and I don't think the majority really worry about it before then.

You are correct that pierce reduces the shield directly, and would work as you've described. My point is that you did not reference the pierce stat in your original post regarding shields and damage etc. And thus would be spreading a misconception regarding simple game mechanics.

As I said in my post- a feint does help it would "turn the -50% shield into a -15% shield. Which depending on your play style and damage your dealing may or may not be important." If you have 15% innate pierce that sounds like for your play style it's not important.

Pierce is a very valuable and powerful stat (and annoying if you are an Ice Wizard...) however it is not readily available before level 80 and is generally not useful before then either. I don't know if you can just assume that someone has an innate percentage of pierce just because you do. (My two max wizards don't have normally have pierce and I don't use it unless I need too for a specific boss.) You are right that by using Shrike, Spears, Gear etc. you can render a shield useless (much to my annoyance as a Thaumaturge), but again pierces relationship to shields is different than the relationship between traps (such as feint) and shields.

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1270
Jamesdeanann on May 7, 2018 wrote:
I can understand (now) the difference between soloing and being in a team.
Here's the thing though : I always try, no matter what, there's never been a time where I'm just sitting and drooling at the screen.
In a team I do blade, but I don't really carry poison, I always end up discarding it.
I'll keep your advice in mind though.

In regards to big hitters and not being able to do anything, I meant more :
All I can do is blade or get one trap in before its all over next round.
I dont really know what to do there.
Again, I understand your frustration. It can be very much that way for all of the defensive/support classes or players who prefer that play-style.

Like the others have suggested, just recognize that some players are used to doing everything fast and blasting through content as quick as possible. If you don't want to make waves, just go along with it, play solo or find some friends that understand that play style.

Good luck friend!

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1443
Alia: Why assume the wizards are all level 90 and above?

My wiz is nowhere near that. We don't all know how to use armor and gear to mathematical precision or efficiency, either. Some are just here to play and have fun or explore, chill, etc.

So when some wizards hit 'through a shield,' the shield is doing what it says it will do.

No early feint, no need to 'hit through a shield' which, even if it just evens out due to '15 percent pierce,' still had a minimizing effect on the hit.

But not all wizards are equally suited or equipped. A team up could contain someone who's level 10, 20, 30; most of mine are around level 50.

I've never seen a visual guide to gear stat symbols, athough I've asked for one ages ago and finally gave up on asking for one. I think the guide in the backpack didn't cover everything, last I looked.

I don't want to be a professional video gamer, or treat this as a job, and we're not all gifted with stats and mathematical prowess. It makes more sense to me to simply strategize on when to place things that impact everyone in the team.

Illuminator
Aug 03, 2016
1443
School shields can be - 70 percent.

How would 15 percent pierce help negate that?

If a blade + trap were added, that's about even, but unless the shield and blade + trap were the same school, the shield could be easily removed without any penalty.

If a feint were added, then 70 percent would be deducted from feint's power.

Some enemies slap shields on themselves or their teammates regularly.

A feint applied just before anyone's big hit seems less likely to get 'in the way.'

Illuminator
Mar 31, 2009
1270
SparkleTude on May 9, 2018 wrote:
School shields can be - 70 percent.

How would 15 percent pierce help negate that?

If a blade + trap were added, that's about even, but unless the shield and blade + trap were the same school, the shield could be easily removed without any penalty.

If a feint were added, then 70 percent would be deducted from feint's power.

Some enemies slap shields on themselves or their teammates regularly.

A feint applied just before anyone's big hit seems less likely to get 'in the way.'
Hi SparkleTude,

Pierce as a stat is really rather OP. Normally shields etc. use multipliers as I've described before. Pierce on the other hand directly reduces the shield percent. So if there is a shield that is a -70% and I use a 10% Spear it will effectively turn that shield into a 60% shield. So 100*(70-10)=60 damage

Vs. If I had a 10% Dragonblade it would behave as previously described. 100*(0.3)(1.1)= 33 damage. I would need a 200% blade to cast the same damage as the Spear cut off. 100*0.3*2.0=60 damage. So pierce can be very valuable if you are dealing with lots of resist. If there is no resist or shield however, then the pierce stat is useless because there is no resist for it to pierce.

As far as when to place feints it depends on the situation. Generally speaking do it whenever you're ready to hit. If you're afraid that they will shield use school traps before using general ones. Again it depends on the play style of you and the other players in your party as to how to best utilize the traps and blades of the battle.

Survivor
Apr 26, 2013
2
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