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A Message to the Community

2
AuthorMessage
Hero
Sep 07, 2011
722
I appreciate the intent of the OP, but what about positive non-change?

The game is great. I don't want it changed. Nothing personal, but many of the things that players suggest have obvious flaws or blow-back. Most favor one playing style, school, or activity. Those kinds of self-interested suggestions are going to get bad feedback from the players who will be affected, and deserve to. We shouldn't attack the poster, or try to make someone feel bad for having an idea, but if it's a bad idea we can and must point out the flaws. It's one person's dream for the game but it may be a horror for someone else.

I've seen a few people posting the same idea over and over even after it's been soundly objected to. If you keep posting it, others will keep objecting. Offering a suggestion to fix a widely recognized problem is fine. Suggesting a universal improvement is good too. But demanding that features some players like be changed to the way you want them is frankly selfish and it invites criticism.

Defender
May 09, 2010
181
Gemma Luna on Feb 24, 2015 wrote:
I appreciate the intent of the OP, but what about positive non-change?

The game is great. I don't want it changed. Nothing personal, but many of the things that players suggest have obvious flaws or blow-back. Most favor one playing style, school, or activity. Those kinds of self-interested suggestions are going to get bad feedback from the players who will be affected, and deserve to. We shouldn't attack the poster, or try to make someone feel bad for having an idea, but if it's a bad idea we can and must point out the flaws. It's one person's dream for the game but it may be a horror for someone else.

I've seen a few people posting the same idea over and over even after it's been soundly objected to. If you keep posting it, others will keep objecting. Offering a suggestion to fix a widely recognized problem is fine. Suggesting a universal improvement is good too. But demanding that features some players like be changed to the way you want them is frankly selfish and it invites criticism.
Well, sometimes changes are needed to appease the (paying) customers. If people start revolting and leaving and talking bad stuff about the game, the developers will know it. And if they're smart, they'll do what they can to fix it. Usually by asking the players what they want.

I understand the angle your coming from, and the ideology you bear with you.....but I see too many people complaining about things;often more then appreciating them. That's when you know something might be wrong. I'm not calling for a massive re-vamp or complete deconstruction and reconstruction. I'm calling for changes, minor or major, that benefit people. Anything from improving boredom issues by adding additional activities (bug catching?) to changing the standard formula of a dungeon (something I have brought light to multiple times) to even adding an additional quest formula outside of the standard collect this, fight that.

The point is, if the players want more or different things next time around, they'll be vocal. It's KI's job to please the community the way they see fit. And if we want changes, we shine this thing, if we want differences, we shun this thing. Our approach is developed by the power of the community. We can make the changes we desire, if we choose to let out ideas fly free.

And yes, everyone has different opinions, I understand that.



"What's next? YOU decide!"

Defender
May 09, 2010
181
I just want to thank everyone for helping me achieve my goal of spreading the influence of Positive Change. I'm proud that this post has become a hot topic....now more people will see our ideas and thoughts! Thanks to all who have supported me in my journey.

We're just getting started.


Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
lettup on Feb 23, 2015 wrote:
My good Wizard...I believe I understand EXACTLY the consequences of what may or may not happen. The problem is....I believe many of the shortcomings people complain about are the result of a wound left untreated for far too long. Left to fester in the mud and rain until something grew from it...Negative Change (Someone write a book about this).
You accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about....I see it as a nigh-blatant attempt. I assure you...if I didn't know what I was talking about, I wouldn't be writing this. Now continuing....

I know what will happen. It's like wound left untreated. It will grow infected. In this case the wound is the theory that this game has become less casual friendly. And the infection is the result of the seemingly few things KI did to keep this wound clean.

Now...for starters...I understand your frustration with the gear drops and rates and whatnot. It's happened to me plenty of times too. You're not alone my friend. Keep that in mind.

Wait a minute....hold up....Let's look at this statement you said;
"Yeah, they're good as gone once the next world is released and their gear sets are not enough." This is exactly what I was talking about: Blanket Criticism. You're assuming by default that whatever the next world is...it will not be suited for the casual player. Now, who's to say it will? This 3rd arc could be a big game changer. We don't know what It will bring, And if KI knows what's right...they will take their "mistakes" from previous expansions and cut them down...to be replaced by solutions. But seriously, who's to say this 3rd arc WON'T be spectacular beyond measure? One way to find out....
But another thing, you said that in a way that makes me think. To me...it seems as if you've lost hope for this game...the way you talk in those last 2 stanzas. Never let the Negative Change creep into your head. Always hope (or expect) for the best and look to the positive side of things; as I also said in my main statement above. You say you stick around because you love this game, as many do, but if we all truly love this game...we need to offer ideas to the developers (weather they listen or not) and to each other that benefit the Wizard101 Experience. It just doesn't seem like that happens too often.
You said in your statement above various things and issues you see as irrelevant: mainly grinding. Let's offer some solutions, anything from no more dungeons, to increased drop rates to guaranteed drop rates after a certain amount of runs. The possibilities are astronomical. I offer a challenge....a reply from you to this post, that gives some solutions to the problems you make light of in your analogies. Give us your ideas to help the game. After all, what other choice do we have? We could sit here complaining to the developers...or we could stand up and make a lasting difference for the better. So, you up for the challenge? If so, feel free to give me your suggestions. Thanks for your time.

To me...it seems as if you've lost hope for this game.

actually, yes. i have. not because i don't want to love it, but because it has closed its doors to my kind.

once upon a time, the crowns vs. time ratio was actually balanced, but the addition of mastery amulets was a horrible mistake, since it paved the way for over-farming and the pvpay-to-win dynamic that has been in effect ever since.

some suggestions (that i have made previously, with some new ones thrown in):

-reasonable time limits on dungeons. and i mean for everyone: not just the select few who have a full/perfect team and/or 15 hours a day to play. i would love to fit in a run or two after work, but being a responsible, productive adult> spending 4 hours in a dungeon.

(drop rates don't even have to be guaranteed, per se: if the instance length is reasonable, i am willing to do 5, 10, even 30 runs to get my gear; more than that is just cruel)

-team up: 5 minutes is hardly incentive enough to keep the snooty players (the kind enlightened one mentioned) from bailing if they don't end up on the 'right' team. ki needs to either:

1) lock all 4 players into the instance, so that they can't join another if they flee
, or
2) impose a larger penalty for bailing~ if you abandon your team immediately after entering the sigil, you have to wait an hour (or 2, or 5) before using team up for that same dungeon again.

-remove pvp from the game, or make it a separate entity. as a pvp captain, i am begging ki not to give us perks in pve. and, for the love of merle, please don't nerf spells to appease the whiners.

-expensive crowns items need to be removed from all dungeons, like, last year. and i say this as someone who got a storm mastery from waterworks on my life wiz. i would trade it in an instant for gear/read: stuff i can actually use.

-long cheaty instances should be opt-in, not opt-out. and, by this, i mean that completing some ridiculous cheat dungeon should not required to obtain the best gear in-game. if said gear is needed for survival in future worlds, there must be another way to get it.

(that said, by all means make those dungeons optional: heck, put the mastery amulets in there instead, and let those who have the time and resources farm to their hearts' content)

-the token-system idea was great. like, i have 20 gold keys from darkmoor just taking up space in my backpack. but what if i could trade them for gear, or something useful?

-i have suggested reagent recycling in the past: what if we could 'recycle' old crafted/crowns/no auction gear that we have outgrown into reagents that are... *gasp* useful.

darkmoor was just the final nail in the coffin of the casual player. if that gear is going to be required for basic quest progression, as many have already speculated, then it needs to be a lot more accessible... or, you know, just don't make it a requirement for basic quest progression. but that might be too obvious a solution)

-von "pvp captain obvious" shadowsong

Defender
May 09, 2010
181
Prince of Shadows on Feb 22, 2015 wrote:
I'm all for constructive suggestions to improve the game, or bring more fun to the community.

Some people however seem to complain endlessly, yet disregard suggestions that would solve their problems. Some want the game changed to suit their personal style or strategy, at the expense of other players. Everyone has a right to self-expression, but it isn't realistic or fair to think that the game will ever be exactly what you want. KI have to please millions of customers, with a wide range of skills and interests. Most of the time they do a great job. Everything requires compromise, and a game with a balance of easy and hard, high and low, is better than "one size fits all".

Also keep in mind a small number of people complaining a lot is not really "a lot of complaints". For every player yelling "nerf X" or "change Y" there are probably 1,000 who like it just the way it is. It seems that the same few people demand certain things over and over. That shouldn't be given undue weight.

If something is going to make play more enjoyable for everyone, great, do it. (examples: higher gold limit, dungeon recall, teleport taps) But if a change is going to shift balance to favour one group, school, or play style but hinder others, be careful. It may tick off more people than it pleases (examples: pet healing nerf, reshuffle change).

There are always calls to make the whole game much easier or harder. That would be a mistake. Variety is good.
Do not falter under my philosophy. I very well understand that variety is a most-needed subject in just about anything. Intricate little things that can make a lasting difference for the better.

I think you see me as a favoritismic person trying to sound smart and make an appeal to a certain group of people. Weather or not you see me this way, I am not.
As I stated multiple times...I am simply trying to plant the idea in people's head that if you want to make changes you have to be up and bold in your response, and I also wish to let people know that complaining won't exactly help solve anything. Sometimes you have to suck it up and deal with it.

But...if enough people are unhappy, then I see it as fair to take matters into their own hands and bring their own suggestions to the table to overcome, fix, or eradicate the said problem they deem unworthy. This isn't a democracy, but there's no reason it should be a chaotic, order-less place where people are too afraid or arrogant to let their ideas be known.

I am not striving for a "one-size fits all" type of game,

I am not determined to separate or discriminate different people's ideologies and play-style,

And I am not trying to shift the balance of this game in any way that favors one person over another!
I hope you understand this.

I just have a dream to see a community that can stand on its own, and make-life saving decisions without any hand holding. I want to be a part of that community. The one that is united, friendly, helpful and realistic. The one that houses people who know how to solve things and work together to overcome obstacles of all manner and size.

If there is one thing I AM striving for.......It's that.


Hero
Sep 07, 2011
722
"I'm not calling for a massive re-vamp or complete deconstruction and reconstruction. I'm calling for changes, minor or major, that benefit people. Anything from improving boredom issues by adding additional activities (bug catching?) to changing the standard formula of a dungeon (something I have brought light to multiple times) to even adding an additional quest formula outside of the standard collect this, fight that."

Those kinds of changes I agree with. Adding new things to do? Sure.

My issue is with comments like the ones below. These are the kind of changes I don't want:

"1) lock all 4 players into the instance, so that they can't join another if they flee, or
2) impose a larger penalty for bailing"

This won't work the way you (and the person who suggested it before) think. Players will just stop using team up. No one should be "locked in". It's a game, not jail. We can flee any time we want.

"remove pvp from the game"

No. Why should something many people enjoy be removed because you don't? Some PvPers feel that way about PvE and pets. KI has to balance different activities to keep everyone happy. Add things to do. Don't take them away.

"expensive crowns items need to be removed from all dungeons, like, last year."
Why?! Many players want to farm for those. It's a big incentive. I want more crown items to drop.

"-long cheaty instances should be opt-in, not opt-out."


They are optional, other than Trial of the Spheres, Mirror Lake, and Galleries, and you need only do those once. No one NEEDS specific gear. Opt-out if you want.

I'll defend your right to ask for those things, but they are bad ideas that would alienate more players than they would please. I'm not going to be positive about them. I'm going to object any time and every time I see them.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
Gemma Luna on Feb 25, 2015 wrote:
"I'm not calling for a massive re-vamp or complete deconstruction and reconstruction. I'm calling for changes, minor or major, that benefit people. Anything from improving boredom issues by adding additional activities (bug catching?) to changing the standard formula of a dungeon (something I have brought light to multiple times) to even adding an additional quest formula outside of the standard collect this, fight that."

Those kinds of changes I agree with. Adding new things to do? Sure.

My issue is with comments like the ones below. These are the kind of changes I don't want:

"1) lock all 4 players into the instance, so that they can't join another if they flee, or
2) impose a larger penalty for bailing"

This won't work the way you (and the person who suggested it before) think. Players will just stop using team up. No one should be "locked in". It's a game, not jail. We can flee any time we want.

"remove pvp from the game"

No. Why should something many people enjoy be removed because you don't? Some PvPers feel that way about PvE and pets. KI has to balance different activities to keep everyone happy. Add things to do. Don't take them away.

"expensive crowns items need to be removed from all dungeons, like, last year."
Why?! Many players want to farm for those. It's a big incentive. I want more crown items to drop.

"-long cheaty instances should be opt-in, not opt-out."


They are optional, other than Trial of the Spheres, Mirror Lake, and Galleries, and you need only do those once. No one NEEDS specific gear. Opt-out if you want.

I'll defend your right to ask for those things, but they are bad ideas that would alienate more players than they would please. I'm not going to be positive about them. I'm going to object any time and every time I see them.
Saying no is fine. But saying "you have a bad idea," as many posters are doing, and not even trying to collaborate with the person to try to improve the idea? What does that accomplish? Would you want to participate in a message board where your ideas were shot down? No, probably not. You'd likely feel like your input wasn't wanted, and you'd probably never come back. That's harmful to the community.

I'm against this idea that if people don't immediately express their complete dissatisfaction, then one of these ideas is going to sneak its way into the game and ruin the experience. That's just blind fear, as Lettup has pointed out. Lots of players and KI employees are fully committed to protecting the quality that we already have. We have protection. What we don't have and are in danger of losing is innovation.

Geographer
Dec 16, 2009
974
Gemma Luna on Feb 25, 2015 wrote:
"I'm not calling for a massive re-vamp or complete deconstruction and reconstruction. I'm calling for changes, minor or major, that benefit people. Anything from improving boredom issues by adding additional activities (bug catching?) to changing the standard formula of a dungeon (something I have brought light to multiple times) to even adding an additional quest formula outside of the standard collect this, fight that."

Those kinds of changes I agree with. Adding new things to do? Sure.

My issue is with comments like the ones below. These are the kind of changes I don't want:

"1) lock all 4 players into the instance, so that they can't join another if they flee, or
2) impose a larger penalty for bailing"

This won't work the way you (and the person who suggested it before) think. Players will just stop using team up. No one should be "locked in". It's a game, not jail. We can flee any time we want.

"remove pvp from the game"

No. Why should something many people enjoy be removed because you don't? Some PvPers feel that way about PvE and pets. KI has to balance different activities to keep everyone happy. Add things to do. Don't take them away.

"expensive crowns items need to be removed from all dungeons, like, last year."
Why?! Many players want to farm for those. It's a big incentive. I want more crown items to drop.

"-long cheaty instances should be opt-in, not opt-out."


They are optional, other than Trial of the Spheres, Mirror Lake, and Galleries, and you need only do those once. No one NEEDS specific gear. Opt-out if you want.

I'll defend your right to ask for those things, but they are bad ideas that would alienate more players than they would please. I'm not going to be positive about them. I'm going to object any time and every time I see them.
Amen

Champion
Feb 29, 2012
495
Dr Von on Feb 24, 2015 wrote:
To me...it seems as if you've lost hope for this game.

actually, yes. i have. not because i don't want to love it, but because it has closed its doors to my kind.

once upon a time, the crowns vs. time ratio was actually balanced, but the addition of mastery amulets was a horrible mistake, since it paved the way for over-farming and the pvpay-to-win dynamic that has been in effect ever since.

some suggestions (that i have made previously, with some new ones thrown in):

-reasonable time limits on dungeons. and i mean for everyone: not just the select few who have a full/perfect team and/or 15 hours a day to play. i would love to fit in a run or two after work, but being a responsible, productive adult> spending 4 hours in a dungeon.

(drop rates don't even have to be guaranteed, per se: if the instance length is reasonable, i am willing to do 5, 10, even 30 runs to get my gear; more than that is just cruel)

-team up: 5 minutes is hardly incentive enough to keep the snooty players (the kind enlightened one mentioned) from bailing if they don't end up on the 'right' team. ki needs to either:

1) lock all 4 players into the instance, so that they can't join another if they flee
, or
2) impose a larger penalty for bailing~ if you abandon your team immediately after entering the sigil, you have to wait an hour (or 2, or 5) before using team up for that same dungeon again.

-remove pvp from the game, or make it a separate entity. as a pvp captain, i am begging ki not to give us perks in pve. and, for the love of merle, please don't nerf spells to appease the whiners.

-expensive crowns items need to be removed from all dungeons, like, last year. and i say this as someone who got a storm mastery from waterworks on my life wiz. i would trade it in an instant for gear/read: stuff i can actually use.

-long cheaty instances should be opt-in, not opt-out. and, by this, i mean that completing some ridiculous cheat dungeon should not required to obtain the best gear in-game. if said gear is needed for survival in future worlds, there must be another way to get it.

(that said, by all means make those dungeons optional: heck, put the mastery amulets in there instead, and let those who have the time and resources farm to their hearts' content)

-the token-system idea was great. like, i have 20 gold keys from darkmoor just taking up space in my backpack. but what if i could trade them for gear, or something useful?

-i have suggested reagent recycling in the past: what if we could 'recycle' old crafted/crowns/no auction gear that we have outgrown into reagents that are... *gasp* useful.

darkmoor was just the final nail in the coffin of the casual player. if that gear is going to be required for basic quest progression, as many have already speculated, then it needs to be a lot more accessible... or, you know, just don't make it a requirement for basic quest progression. but that might be too obvious a solution)

-von "pvp captain obvious" shadowsong
What about people who ditch team-up because they mistimed pressing the button to go in with a friend? I've bailed before so that I could go in with one of my starred friends who knows what he's doing. However, a full group was not possible as nobody would go with us, so we chose team up and I ended up having to bail once to go in with him.

I don't think too harsh penalties should be enforced on team-ups because of stuff like that. Five minutes was plenty of time for me to go ugh.

Hero
Sep 07, 2011
722
Lucas Rain on Feb 25, 2015 wrote:
Saying no is fine. But saying "you have a bad idea," as many posters are doing, and not even trying to collaborate with the person to try to improve the idea? What does that accomplish? Would you want to participate in a message board where your ideas were shot down? No, probably not. You'd likely feel like your input wasn't wanted, and you'd probably never come back. That's harmful to the community.

I'm against this idea that if people don't immediately express their complete dissatisfaction, then one of these ideas is going to sneak its way into the game and ruin the experience. That's just blind fear, as Lettup has pointed out. Lots of players and KI employees are fully committed to protecting the quality that we already have. We have protection. What we don't have and are in danger of losing is innovation.
Bad is bad. I don't want to collaborate. I oppose such ideas completely. It isn't my responsibility to make someone feel good about those suggestions. Some people are always unhappy, which is their problem, but when they demand things that I and others LIKE be removed to suit them, it becomes mine. People have offered positive suggestions to solve problems using things already in the game, but those get dismissed. I can't stop someone from complaining, but don't have to validate it, and frankly when every post is a complaint or attack on KI or other players, that input isn't wanted and I don't care if that poster comes back.

Generally things that penalize players or remove functionality are negative, no matter how noble the intent or how positive sounding the pitch.

I do not want dungeon penalties. People will stop teaming with randoms if that happens.
I do not want PvP removed from the game (or fishing or cheat bosses or pets or anything). Someone likes it even if you don't.
I do not want crown items removed from dungeons. They add value.
I do not want top dungeon gear sold. It would disincentivize game time/effort.
I do not want the game nerfed to the point anyone can solo anything easily. Boring.

Those would be detrimental to the game and KI's business plan, and would diminish enjoyment for many players. It imposes one person's prejudice against certain kinds of play and certain groups of players onto the whole community. You have a right to want them and ask for them, but I am not going to collaborate on any of those directions. I am going to fight them as vocally, aggressively, and tenaciously as I can within the rules of the site.

KI does a good job catering to many kinds of players. If you don't like something in the game, that's ok, you can probably avoid it. "Nerf X" or "Remove Y" are almost always BAD ideas, motivated by selfishness or jealousy. Such ideas have made it into the game. Without naming names, a small group of vocal complainers got pet heals nerfed, which turned out to be one of the most unpopular things KI ever did. Combat Idle was added because of complaints, but not thought through well and inconvenient for solo players. There have been others which turned out badly.

If you aren't open to negative comments, posting things on message boards is a risk. I don't abide personal attacks on people, but your ideas are fair game for criticism. So are mine. Welcome to the internet.

I am all for positive changes - adding good things like a token system, new activities, better chat options, more content. Great!

Archon
Feb 07, 2011
3171
Scarlet Nightdream... on Feb 26, 2015 wrote:
What about people who ditch team-up because they mistimed pressing the button to go in with a friend? I've bailed before so that I could go in with one of my starred friends who knows what he's doing. However, a full group was not possible as nobody would go with us, so we chose team up and I ended up having to bail once to go in with him.

I don't think too harsh penalties should be enforced on team-ups because of stuff like that. Five minutes was plenty of time for me to go ugh.
i don't like the cooldown either. but, with the time investment that's required in these dungeons, over half of my playable hours are spent trying and failing to find a team (or struggling along with half of one, until what's left of the group finally writes it off as a waste), which is a huge time-suck.

(i will never start a run that i know i can't finish. yes, things happen. but, once again, we are not talking exceptions here)

that said, your post gave me an idea: what if ki were to add a button that allowed us to team with online friends?

it would work like the 'join friends' function in pvp; choose 'team with...' to view a list of your online friends and click the box beside the name(s) of the player(s) you wish to team with. they will then receive a pop-up message asking them to join your instance. for example:

sestiva stormblade (level 100 ) has invited you to join her in castle darkmoor: proceed?

the recipient can then accept or reject the invite, in the same manner as a friend request. not only would this spare the poor souls using team up the frustration of being quit on, but it would also make it easier for those who have regular farming buddies to connect with people they know.

-

Gemma Luna said:

I'll defend your right to ask for those things, but they are bad ideas that would alienate more players than they would please. I'm not going to be positive about them. I'm going to object any time and every time I see them.


likewise, on all counts. just because you don't like a suggestion doesn't make it a bad one.

i will always be on the side of the average casual player: those who don't have a ton of friends, 15 hours a day to play, or the best of everything... if you can show me how elitism and obsessive farming benefit those players, or contribute to a positive experience, then by all means do.

"expensive crowns items need to be removed from all dungeons, like, last year."
Why?! Many players want to farm for those. It's a big incentive. I want more crown items to drop.


that's all fine and well. so put them in an instance that's actually optional, where 1) you can farm all you want without hurting the overall balance of the game, and 2) your obsessive farming does not impact my drop rate.

"-long cheaty instances should be opt-in, not opt-out."
They are optional, other than Trial of the Spheres, Mirror Lake, and Galleries, and you need only do those once. No one NEEDS specific gear. Opt-out if you want.


when i read your reply, i hear this:

the gear exists because it's required for survival in future worlds, but you can skip the dungeon if you want. just keep struggling along and, once you realize how outclassed you are, quit. but don't complain about being outclassed, because you wouldn't be, if only you'd done that optional dungeon.

if it is the best gear in-game and has no crafted or purchasable (whether bazaar/vendor or crowns) alternative, then it is not optional.

-von

Armiger
Jan 11, 2012
2016
Here's the thing, and I've said it before (under the PvP section, titled: some things to think about):

Also, what people, in general have to think about, is things that are good for PvP are not necessarily good for PvE and vica versa. I've seen some ideas that other people suggest just get torn to shreds because it wont work in one side or the other. My question is, who cares? Maybe the suggestion was made to help ONLY one side. Just because it doesn't benefit YOU doesn't make it an invalid request.

I'm pasting this to illustrate what is happening with ideas and the board. Do I always have the best ideas? No, not at all, but all of my ideas aren't trash either. I have NO problem having a bad idea, or being told such. The problem I have is when somebody shoots down my idea by using a 14 pip tempest to snuff out a rank 1 ghost. That's the sickness you are referring to and people need to check themselves when they reply to comments here. It's ok to disagree, it's the manner in which we disagree that causes the fire to spread or dwindle.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
Gemma Luna on Feb 26, 2015 wrote:
Bad is bad. I don't want to collaborate. I oppose such ideas completely. It isn't my responsibility to make someone feel good about those suggestions. Some people are always unhappy, which is their problem, but when they demand things that I and others LIKE be removed to suit them, it becomes mine. People have offered positive suggestions to solve problems using things already in the game, but those get dismissed. I can't stop someone from complaining, but don't have to validate it, and frankly when every post is a complaint or attack on KI or other players, that input isn't wanted and I don't care if that poster comes back.

Generally things that penalize players or remove functionality are negative, no matter how noble the intent or how positive sounding the pitch.

I do not want dungeon penalties. People will stop teaming with randoms if that happens.
I do not want PvP removed from the game (or fishing or cheat bosses or pets or anything). Someone likes it even if you don't.
I do not want crown items removed from dungeons. They add value.
I do not want top dungeon gear sold. It would disincentivize game time/effort.
I do not want the game nerfed to the point anyone can solo anything easily. Boring.

Those would be detrimental to the game and KI's business plan, and would diminish enjoyment for many players. It imposes one person's prejudice against certain kinds of play and certain groups of players onto the whole community. You have a right to want them and ask for them, but I am not going to collaborate on any of those directions. I am going to fight them as vocally, aggressively, and tenaciously as I can within the rules of the site.

KI does a good job catering to many kinds of players. If you don't like something in the game, that's ok, you can probably avoid it. "Nerf X" or "Remove Y" are almost always BAD ideas, motivated by selfishness or jealousy. Such ideas have made it into the game. Without naming names, a small group of vocal complainers got pet heals nerfed, which turned out to be one of the most unpopular things KI ever did. Combat Idle was added because of complaints, but not thought through well and inconvenient for solo players. There have been others which turned out badly.

If you aren't open to negative comments, posting things on message boards is a risk. I don't abide personal attacks on people, but your ideas are fair game for criticism. So are mine. Welcome to the internet.

I am all for positive changes - adding good things like a token system, new activities, better chat options, more content. Great!
No, bad is not bad. Bad is relative. I find this suggestion judgmental and biased, and it's honestly not within the prerogative of non-employee posters on the message board to declare that something is bad. Instead, a simple "no" or an "I don't think I'd like it" is sufficient, even if it's painfully obvious that an idea probably won't make the cut.

There's no benefit to ripping ideas apart, unless the goal is to ensure that new posters are afraid to speak up, and to make sure new ideas get killed off before they can even begin. If that were the goal, I would encourage people to respond far more frequently with "DO NOT WANT," "worst idea ever," "I will quit the game if this happens," and "this is terrible." I feel fairly confident no one will make a peep when they have an idea in that environment. Plus, this is a moderated, family-friendly message board (most of the time), so the sarcasm-laden sentiment of "welcome to the internet" shouldn't even apply here.

Defender
May 09, 2010
181
Dr Von on Feb 24, 2015 wrote:
To me...it seems as if you've lost hope for this game.

actually, yes. i have. not because i don't want to love it, but because it has closed its doors to my kind.

once upon a time, the crowns vs. time ratio was actually balanced, but the addition of mastery amulets was a horrible mistake, since it paved the way for over-farming and the pvpay-to-win dynamic that has been in effect ever since.

some suggestions (that i have made previously, with some new ones thrown in):

-reasonable time limits on dungeons. and i mean for everyone: not just the select few who have a full/perfect team and/or 15 hours a day to play. i would love to fit in a run or two after work, but being a responsible, productive adult> spending 4 hours in a dungeon.

(drop rates don't even have to be guaranteed, per se: if the instance length is reasonable, i am willing to do 5, 10, even 30 runs to get my gear; more than that is just cruel)

-team up: 5 minutes is hardly incentive enough to keep the snooty players (the kind enlightened one mentioned) from bailing if they don't end up on the 'right' team. ki needs to either:

1) lock all 4 players into the instance, so that they can't join another if they flee
, or
2) impose a larger penalty for bailing~ if you abandon your team immediately after entering the sigil, you have to wait an hour (or 2, or 5) before using team up for that same dungeon again.

-remove pvp from the game, or make it a separate entity. as a pvp captain, i am begging ki not to give us perks in pve. and, for the love of merle, please don't nerf spells to appease the whiners.

-expensive crowns items need to be removed from all dungeons, like, last year. and i say this as someone who got a storm mastery from waterworks on my life wiz. i would trade it in an instant for gear/read: stuff i can actually use.

-long cheaty instances should be opt-in, not opt-out. and, by this, i mean that completing some ridiculous cheat dungeon should not required to obtain the best gear in-game. if said gear is needed for survival in future worlds, there must be another way to get it.

(that said, by all means make those dungeons optional: heck, put the mastery amulets in there instead, and let those who have the time and resources farm to their hearts' content)

-the token-system idea was great. like, i have 20 gold keys from darkmoor just taking up space in my backpack. but what if i could trade them for gear, or something useful?

-i have suggested reagent recycling in the past: what if we could 'recycle' old crafted/crowns/no auction gear that we have outgrown into reagents that are... *gasp* useful.

darkmoor was just the final nail in the coffin of the casual player. if that gear is going to be required for basic quest progression, as many have already speculated, then it needs to be a lot more accessible... or, you know, just don't make it a requirement for basic quest progression. but that might be too obvious a solution)

-von "pvp captain obvious" shadowsong
I thank you for your contribution to Positive Change. The more ideas we have circulating, the more it will get into people's heads that complaining blatantly isn't the way to go. Posts that bring a problem to light, and offer a solution are the best ones. The people behind those posts are the people who are willing to keep this game alive by contributing their imagination to its future success or backups. Now let's break down your post:

Most of the ideas you said have a certain ring to them, some loud, some soft. This one rings louder than the rest: The token system. Something like this could be game changing. I'm not siding with or against it, but this is an interesting suggestion and one KI should definitely keep in mind.

The reagent recycling system: Sounds like a keeper to me. Innovative, fresh and appealing, this could help many.

Long "cheaty" instances: This one isn't really an innovative idea, but I couldn't agree more. I for one am not sure what the next world(s) will be like, but if they are obnoxiously stressful and practically require dungeon gear, then that is something I will not stand for. I doubt they will be like this but we'll have to wait and see, I suppose.

Crowns gear in dungeons: I somewhat agree. In my opinion, if expensive crown shop gear has chances of dropping, it should be of your own school at least.

Remove PVP: I doubt removing it would solve very much. It would offend many, and turn off even more. I see it as unnecessary. Removing the entire thing seems unwise and as if KI is making an appeal to a certain people. Making it a separate entity however....sticks to me. If we could make PVP seem less important and more of a side activity, then you'll get your wish.

Reasonable time limits on dungeons: I also agree to this. spending long amounts of time in dungeons for the very slim chance of getting gear seems like a waste of time to many, and that's understandable. I do not know how KI could solve this, but if they delve into it if there is another dungeon in the future, I'm sure they'll find a way.

Team up improvements: I agree that it's not a perfect system, but it is helpful in most aspects for a quick chance to work. I've made many friends through my team up experiences, bu everyone has a different story to tell.

Anyways, for the most part your suggestions are interesting and something to think about. Thanks for your time. I'll cya around.

'Till next time.


Geographer
Dec 16, 2009
974
Dr Von on Feb 26, 2015 wrote:
i don't like the cooldown either. but, with the time investment that's required in these dungeons, over half of my playable hours are spent trying and failing to find a team (or struggling along with half of one, until what's left of the group finally writes it off as a waste), which is a huge time-suck.

(i will never start a run that i know i can't finish. yes, things happen. but, once again, we are not talking exceptions here)

that said, your post gave me an idea: what if ki were to add a button that allowed us to team with online friends?

it would work like the 'join friends' function in pvp; choose 'team with...' to view a list of your online friends and click the box beside the name(s) of the player(s) you wish to team with. they will then receive a pop-up message asking them to join your instance. for example:

sestiva stormblade (level 100 ) has invited you to join her in castle darkmoor: proceed?

the recipient can then accept or reject the invite, in the same manner as a friend request. not only would this spare the poor souls using team up the frustration of being quit on, but it would also make it easier for those who have regular farming buddies to connect with people they know.

-

Gemma Luna said:

I'll defend your right to ask for those things, but they are bad ideas that would alienate more players than they would please. I'm not going to be positive about them. I'm going to object any time and every time I see them.


likewise, on all counts. just because you don't like a suggestion doesn't make it a bad one.

i will always be on the side of the average casual player: those who don't have a ton of friends, 15 hours a day to play, or the best of everything... if you can show me how elitism and obsessive farming benefit those players, or contribute to a positive experience, then by all means do.

"expensive crowns items need to be removed from all dungeons, like, last year."
Why?! Many players want to farm for those. It's a big incentive. I want more crown items to drop.


that's all fine and well. so put them in an instance that's actually optional, where 1) you can farm all you want without hurting the overall balance of the game, and 2) your obsessive farming does not impact my drop rate.

"-long cheaty instances should be opt-in, not opt-out."
They are optional, other than Trial of the Spheres, Mirror Lake, and Galleries, and you need only do those once. No one NEEDS specific gear. Opt-out if you want.


when i read your reply, i hear this:

the gear exists because it's required for survival in future worlds, but you can skip the dungeon if you want. just keep struggling along and, once you realize how outclassed you are, quit. but don't complain about being outclassed, because you wouldn't be, if only you'd done that optional dungeon.

if it is the best gear in-game and has no crafted or purchasable (whether bazaar/vendor or crowns) alternative, then it is not optional.

-von
that said, your post gave me an idea: what if ki were to add a button that allowed us to team with online friends?

Great Idea! No objections here.

i will always be on the side of the average casual player: those who don't have a ton of friends, 15 hours a day to play, or the best of everything... if you can show me how elitism and obsessive farming benefit those players, or contribute to a positive experience, then by all means do.

DM was not designed with the casual player base in mind. It is the one instance in the game that was acknowledged as specifically targeted to the hardcore segment of the game. I for one am very happy that DM offers an experience that rises to my level and I will fight tooth and nail to have it retain the difficulty and challenge that makes it so appealing to me.

that's all fine and well. so put them in an instance that's actually optional, where 1) you can farm all you want without hurting the overall balance of the game, and 2) your obsessive farming does not impact my drop rate

How does other people's farming habits affect you drop rate or game balance?

the gear exists because it's required for survival in future worlds, but you can skip the dungeon if you want. just keep struggling along and, once you realize how outclassed you are, quit. but don't complain about being outclassed, because you wouldn't be, if only you'd done that optional dungeon.

That's exactly the issue at hand-player perception. This gear is demonstrably not needed for the next world. How? Simply because this gear was not needed for DM itself which is the toughest challenge to date. Main Arc worlds are traditionally much much easier than the elite side dungeons(the exception being pre-nerf azteca: and that was nerfed) Waterworks gear was not and is not needed to progress-the crafted gear available at every 10 lvls on each world offers functional alternatives that allow progress through main arc worlds with relative ease. Simply because gear is the best gear does not mean it is necessary gear.

Administrator
Hello,

I appreciate everyone's desire to discuss the best ways to give feedback about the game. But this discussion has become unnecessarily contentious and is no longer productive. I am closing this thread now.


community@wizard101.com
2