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Using treasure cards during a duel. Yes or No

1
AuthorMessage
Defender
Apr 27, 2009
127
We all love treasure cards, including myself, and they have proved to be very helpful. However, I dont think treasure cards should be used during a battle, this includes enhancing cards such as keen eyes, tough, etc. Yesterday, I went into a duel with a fire wizard and it was pretty evenly matched for a while. We both were about down to 500 health each when I had enough pips to put on a decent Ice Armor spell, being that I am ice. It had a value of exactly 1000. I went to cast a colossus to finish the duel when out of nowhere, he fired a wild bolt on me with a storm trap, elemental trap, storm blade, and 9% damage increase. This completely wiped out my armor and my health, causing me to lose. I dont think that it is right to use treasure cards during a duel, stick to your trained spells. If he was storm, I would of accepted it and admitted myself as fairly defeated but when just out of luck they have a wild bolt that a friend made that just happens to work, I dont think it is fair. If it comes with the robe or hat or boots then that is OK too but please no more treasures.

Survivor
Aug 19, 2008
1
I think its fine, sometimes you have low levels in health and level that fight grandmasters. Seriously do you thinks a someone with level 34 spells can beat someone with storm lord, tritan and other high level spells? There health is low and their spells are weak unless balance, they get judgement at 28 i believe. There decks are half the size of a grandmaster too. Treasure cards are limited in the amount aloud in a deck. If someone doesnt have ice as a secondary school are they supposed to not be able to get towers to defend theirselves?
People farm and do task for their treasure cards. They pay well for them and should be aloud to use any card in deck.
Learn to shield better, everyone tries to bolt cuz it only takes two pips. Most the times the bolts dont work and that gives you another chance to shield or attack.
Instead of getting all mad, get yourself a couple wild bolts to keep in deck so if they go that route.
I know i keep a couple in deck. If someone starts the bolting then I will respond. In pvp i also know to keep storm shields in deck.

So treasure cards get a yes from me, they are part of deck and everyone is allowed them.

Survivor
May 27, 2009
1
there should be an option to turn it off or on I think. At this point everyone has wild bolt and some form of treasure heal. It has almost taken away the importance of schools in dueling. With that said im fine with people using them that want to. I just wish there were options to have treasure cards or not. would even be cool if you could turn other stuff off or on (shields, etc :D).

Defender
Apr 27, 2009
127
In a way I sort of agree of mpisnumber1. But, with a shield, it can still do in 200-300 which can be substantial.

Survivor
Sep 26, 2009
34
I think there should be a seperate braket system for people who do not want treasure cards, maybe even possibly crowns items. Or make it to where if a treasure fizzles in pvp, it wont vanish, but instead, be unusable so wild bolt stays fair even for treasure users. I personally think that treasures are completely unfair, but what else would we use them for.

Survivor
May 11, 2009
24
My belief is that, the lower the number of 'must-have' cards in a given format, the better. This places less inherent restriction on deck design and allows not only more cards, but by association more wizard archetypes become more 'equally viable'. That's not to say certain cards will not define a healthy format - Feint will never go away, nor will Tower Shield or Pixie. But it's important to look at the way certain cards push other cards out entirely.

Simple example: as one levels up, low level spells are traded for high level spells. Thunder Snake eventually gets dropped for Lightning Bats, which in turn trades up to Storm Shark, etc. Power Pips make playing such cards sort of superfluous. This is healthy and fair; there's no reason to assume a good format includes every lousy 1-pip spell in the game.

Less obvious example: Trap cards make Spirit Armor less attractive. The way trap/shield 'layers' work in this game is pretty much "First In, Last Applied". By following that it's easy to see how playing defensively is much harder, as a spell like Spirit Armor needs to be as close to last, or as close to the 'top' as possible in order to be effective. Meanwhile, traps and blades have a very natural interaction which are easy to be proactive with and are generally much cheaper than the awkward Ice Armor/Spirit Armor spells of the game. This isn't to say that no one should be playing Spirit Armor, because at the end of the day a well timed Armor spell can be much more effective than a Tower Shield in the proper situation. But on the whole, being proactive is simple while being reactive is much more difficult and much easier to play around. This is probably fine too, as it is generally very rewarding to pull off this style of play as it requires a little more thought and predicting and tends to leave the reactive player in a better position once both players are down on pips and trying to reclaim their position.

Prime example: Wild Bolt as a Treasure Card eliminates whole strategies. The mechanics of Treasure Cards being what they are - return the fizzled spell to the sideboard for another use - perfectly suit WB to be spammed. This might be okay if the overall speed of the format were fast, but it isn't. Wizard101 is a patience game, especially in the Arena. Even the fastest Storm grandmasters still require a few turns to set up traps, blades and the eventual Storm Lord or Triton to seal the deal, and this depends on their luck with the Power Pips. Wild Bolt dodges the waiting and preys on the game's mechanics to put itself in a position of extreme resourcefulness. No other spell approaches its capacity for damage at such a low cost, and as has been illustrated time and again its low accuracy is not difficult to circumvent. Warlord gear and accuracy enhancing Treasure Cards give the Bolt almost 50/50 odds of resolving, and being a Treasure Card makes it tradeable. The trading is where the system really breaks down; different Wizards exist to employ different strategies. Some summon minions, some hide behind shields, some can even run an opponent out of cards via regeneration and disruption (Weakness/Black Mantle effects). But all of those strategies can be and often are supplemented with this Wild Bolt fallback plan. It's seen time and again, when teams come from behind by breaking out this almost universal emergency plan - if individualized path to victory is failing, try Wild Bolt. This is a problem because it makes players think about going very specifically out of their way to change their deck in a way to deal with this plan.

In my experience with other card-based competitive games, when a format is defined more by its answers than its threats, you've got a very self-involved and reactionary metagame which is warping itself around one central strategy and can only really consist of (a) the problem strategy (b) the answer to the problem. If you don't think so, just look at the other various CCgs which have, at one point or another, gone so far as to BAN cards from being played. Banning is a horrible option; in the 'real world' it makes a piece of your investment worthless and unable to be played anywhere. In a game like this it creates another barrier between PvE and PvP, and the issue becomes less about what's playable and more about what ISN'T, and why. The last thing you want to tell an aspiring Arena player is that their spell that they spent the last hour completing a quest to earn isn't playable at all in Arena. By the same token, nobody wants to play in a format full of Storm Shields and Dissipates as those are obviously very specific answers to a specific issue, as opposed to a format full of independent ideas based around enablers.

Survivor
Oct 11, 2009
37
I'll state up front that I would be happier if treasure cards were not part of PvP. That said, I use them. I do not, however, use treasure cards above my level. Beating someone using treasure cards obtained from a higher level wizard just isn't very challenging. It is no indication of my skill as a player.

I also do not generally use treasure cards outside of my primary school. I feel that this is a waste of power pips. I guess this wouldn't be as much an issue with Wild Bolt, but I don't use it.

Bombfish makes some good points. I agree that "must have" cards degrade the complexity and potential enjoyment of PvP. However, the defense against Wild Bolt is a storm shield (actually Glacial Shield). I view this card as must have, but not just because of Wild Bolt. Storm wizards do lots of damage. If you don't have a storm shield and they don't have Wild Bolt, you are still in for a world of hurt from a bladed and trapped Triton. Regardless of whether or not Wild Bolt was in the game, you would still need a storm shield of some variety to stand up to storm.

When my wizards have been at low levels (and low health) I've found Wild Bolt to be extremely annoying. However, at higher levels (and I'm only talking 20s here), Wild Bolt ceases to be effective. Perhaps I am in a sweet spot in level and rank that is both above and below where wild bolt is used. I honestly cannot remember the last time storm beat me much less storm beat me with Wild Bolt. They throw bolts, I throw shields, and I chip away at their health in between.


Defender
May 31, 2009
116
Wow, some well thought out answers here. So far - usually these posts degenerate into whining and worse, so it's nice that it hasn't gone there yet.

I, too, agree that Treasure Cards in pvp diminish the enjoyment of arena battles. Low level players using high level spells, complete dependency on game changing spells like Wild Bolt, manufacturing super spells - all very contentious issues. But, as much as I wish things would change, I will also admit I do indeed use Treasure Cards simply because it's part of the game. It's NOT cheating, and if you don't accept them as part of the game you will A> never be happy and B> probably won't attain a very high rank. Not to say you CAN'T win without using them, but as a Warlord with around 1400 rank, I can tell you that I'd be at a serious disadvantage against very skilled players if I didn't. I learned some time ago that if I couldn't beat them, I best join them. And I did.

Well, mostly. I can honestly say I have never Wild Bolted anyone. Not because it's not fair, but because I think it's bad strategy. In fact, with out of school "penalty", the only Treasure Cards of more than one pip I use is for Healing. But that's me - if folks want to Wild Bolt, or any other Treasure Card spell, that's simply part of the game. Though one other "complication" that Treasure Cards create is that it's hard to come up with a perfect defense since any school can use any spell, I think it's safe to say that any could have Wild Bolt and it's probably in your best interest to load Storm Shields in any pvp deck.

That said, I do think there are a few ways to "curb" Treasure Cards without eliminating them from the game.

1. An idea presented by Ravenfell was to take Keen and Tough out of the Library. Brilliant. These cards are the key ingredient to "manufactured" cards and making them less available would radically change the way Treasure Cards are made / used / traded.

2. Why are Treasure Cards more powerful / better than the trained spell version? Shouldn't a spell you put a lot of effort into learning be more powerful / better than a spell bought / traded for? People would still use Treasure Cards to have access to spells they haven't learned, but it would make learning spells a premium.

3. Allow Treasure Cards, but perhaps limit the Tickets / Points won in pvp if more than 3 / 5 / 10 / X cards are used. Again, this would allow use of Treasure Cards, but it would prevent "Abuse" / overuse of them.

Alas, until KI changes things, I'm afraid that acceptance of Treasure Cards would be in everyone's best interest. Sorry to say, they are part of the game now and, love it or hate it, they are almost a "requirement" to making it to Warlord and beyond. (Please note ALMOST - I'm sure there are LOADS of pvp players who are Warlords that don't use treasure cards, but
as a general rule)

mlb

Survivor
May 25, 2009
29
ok i am a level 45 ice wizard and i do not getting bolted in the arena.i do have a level 43 storm wizard and he has wild bolt and he uses it in the arena.i do not say that it is cheating cause my storm guy earned it from a quest.

Survivor
May 11, 2009
24
For the record, as an unaltered spell I don't have a problem with Wild Bolt. It's obviously intended to be a high risk venture with minimal investment, and on the frail body of a Storm wizard it is just fine. That's why each school has access to its own special spells; they are the things that separate wizards from each other beyond their life total and publicly available spells. It's when the 3000+ health tanks of the game start accessing the same skills that I feel an unhealthy blurring of the wizard builds takes place.

PvE is one thing; the essence of that is free-for-all and often requires outside assistance, especially at the higher levels - soloing Dragonspyre is a unique challenge. But PvP represents a different kind of challenge altogether, as it creates this metagame where the best players find the best plays and best ways to execute them. Such an format lends itself to finding broken plays; it just happens. So while an Ice Wizard Wild Bolting out in the PvE universe is probably fine, doing it against other wizards lets the air out of the tires too quickly to allow for real player interaction. That's the real issue here; fostering interaction between players.

It's not even like it's the most damaging play in the game, Balance wizards cast huge Judgments all the time and only Spirit Armor and Tower Shield stand between an opposing Wizard. But even a good Judgment takes time to set up, and it can be beaten to the punch, and if it fizzles you have to draw another one. The mechanics of Treasure Cards make Wild Bolt way too easy to access after a fizzle. In other card games, finding spells (called 'tutoring') often leads to the MOST degenerate plays. Often times, the card that finds the card is the one that gets banned - you ban the tutor, not the card. To approach this game in similar fashion: ban the mechanic (treasure cards) in PvP, not the card. Let Life wizards cast enhanced Wild Bolts against Jade Oni till the cows come home. But in the Arena it's a means to steal wins where none would have been before. You have to ask yourself; in a format where every Wizard has access to virtually every spell and the best equipment homogenizes the Wizard's stats (damage, accuracy, defense) but NOT their health, which Wizards have the most to gain?

Survivor
Jun 16, 2009
3
I agree with the writer of this post. YOU SHOULD NOT be allowed. I have also posted a post about this under problems and solutions About the Arena. I wish they had a Anything goes arena for treasure users to use at their own risk, and another arena for those of us who want to be fair and have a challenging game using their OWN aquired school or schools they trained for and a few spells you can buy w points like beguile dispell traps and infection etc Storm i am still debating with bolts but i guess they can use them Lately anyone and everyone bolts so whats the point of using schools if a cheap 2 pip shot is gonna go off and kill me in 2 rounds. Its luck iits not a challenge the only challenge here is trying to avoid BOLTERS!!! People brag about being a warlord or winning, but if its from treasure cards, then it was luck not SKILL It gets me so annoyed that I play fair, with skill and do my best at my schools and someone comes along and fires off 2 bolts when they are LIFE and kills me and then they cheer about it. AGAIN not skill its sheer luck and makes me not even wanna play PVP. Im hearing more and mroe people say they agree with me, and feel its unfair and makes it not fun I want gear like everyone else, but it should be earned during a flipping great battle not some lucky shots and treasure cards. Also, they should have each rank play the same rank in matches and as you go up or down fight the same rank until you get to warlords, to see who the best really is warlords face off with warlords for over lords. warlords beating privates or knights is a joke! Of course, the odds in your favor. Ive been all levels of rank and wish i could just face off with my rank, as i go up and up Hope theres some other WIZARDS out there who wanna see these ideas come to light like me and want a gosh darn good game the RIGHT way

Explorer
Feb 09, 2009
58
I say yes they shoudl be allowed.

The game is well balanced enough to allow treasure cards. your decks only allow so many.

The problems with treasure cards isn't that they're there it's that they show up in low level matches.

In high level matches treasure cards don't matter at all. Everyone has access to their big spells by then. So having a couple more in your deck isn't noticed at all.

Only thing I can say to that is keep leveling. Until you reach max level you will always be at a disadvantage to the other guy who has either leveled more than you or has treasure cards higher than his level.

You won't find "fair" fights before level 50.

If you choose to PvP before then you have to accept that not all your matches are going to be fair. You're going to be out classed by someone who put in more time and effort than you did.

That's the nature of competition.

Finish leveling then you'll be back on an even playing field again, and their treasure cards won't matter.

Survivor
May 11, 2009
24
It's also worth pointing out that Treasure Cards can unfairly power up low-level wizards in the Arena. There's no reason at all for a Lv 5 Wizard of any school to be using a Sniper'd Wild Bolt in the Arena. For that matter, they probably shouldn't even have access to most spells outside their level. Treasure Card trading enables these low-level Warlords to exist, and the access to the gear they attain comes from exploiting holes in the system as opposed to actually playing the game.

The above poster mentions Beguile, another excellent example of an effect which would do well to keep to its own school. As I previously stated, certain spells are what make the schools unique. If this were not so, we'd all be Ice/Life Wizards and just seek out a complimentary second school, as they have the greatest life total.

Survivor
May 16, 2009
9
using treasure cards are great i use stormzillas and they helped me to get to warlord in pvp. I'm a lvl 26 balance. :)

Survivor
Dec 18, 2008
14
Nightlord1000 wrote:
using treasure cards are great i use stormzillas and they helped me to get to warlord in pvp. I'm a lvl 26 balance. :)


then you are technically a cheater since you use them to your advantage. i only use them once in a while. never in ranked duel though. but i think treasure cards in ranked pvp should be banned. this level 15 or so balance beat me because he used a helephant treasure card that was buffed. it was very un fair in my opinion. :( :( :( :( :( :(

Survivor
Feb 21, 2009
8
I dont think treasure cards should be allowed at all. I've made it to commander rank without using any. The duel shouldnt be based on how much money you've spent on cards but on your skill level with the cards you've learned.

Defender
May 31, 2009
116
then you are technically a cheater since you use them to your advantage.

WHAT?

You are categorically, absolutely, unoquivicably, and, yes, TECHNICALLY wrong!

Please familiarize yourself with the definition of CHEAT -

To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

Show me what RULE treasure card violates. There aren't any. So if the makers of the game allow people to use treasure cards in pvp, HOW can it be cheating?

I started a post about disabling the word CHEATER in the game for this exact reason - that people confuse CHEATING with anything they don't personally like. I won't disagree with the fact that Wild Bolts, Chain Stuns, Treasure Cards, and a whole host of other things could use some modifications to make this game a bit more enjoyable for me, personally. However, until KI makes any changes, all of these are LEGITIMATE parts of the game. Accept it and adjust your strategy, or else MOVE on. Like me you don't have to like everything, but don't take your dissatisfaction about these things against your opponent who is within the rules of the game.

I think forums like this are great to get your point across to KI - they really need to hear this stuff. Tell them what you think, tell them what you want, and by all means tell them WHY. However, before you cast aspersions about your fellow wizard, PLEASE keep in mind what CHEATING really means. It's my belief that 99.99% of what people think is cheating isn't, as 3RDSense has so wonderfully illustrated.

RECAP - just because someone does something you don't like does NOT make it cheating - Theoretically, hypothetically, or TECHNICALLY.

mlb

Defender
Jan 03, 2009
140
nlhf1995 wrote:
We all love treasure cards, including myself, and they have proved to be very helpful. However, I dont think treasure cards should be used during a battle, this includes enhancing cards such as keen eyes, tough, etc. Yesterday, I went into a duel with a fire wizard and it was pretty evenly matched for a while. We both were about down to 500 health each when I had enough pips to put on a decent Ice Armor spell, being that I am ice. It had a value of exactly 1000. I went to cast a colossus to finish the duel when out of nowhere, he fired a wild bolt on me with a storm trap, elemental trap, storm blade, and 9% damage increase. This completely wiped out my armor and my health, causing me to lose. I dont think that it is right to use treasure cards during a duel, stick to your trained spells. If he was storm, I would of accepted it and admitted myself as fairly defeated but when just out of luck they have a wild bolt that a friend made that just happens to work, I dont think it is fair. If it comes with the robe or hat or boots then that is OK too but please no more treasures.


I think you should say in a pvp match because duel could be any fight.

Defender
Jan 03, 2009
140
Caspeen wrote:
then you are technically a cheater since you use them to your advantage.

WHAT?

You are categorically, absolutely, unoquivicably, and, yes, TECHNICALLY wrong!

Please familiarize yourself with the definition of CHEAT -

To violate rules deliberately, as in a game

Show me what RULE treasure card violates. There aren't any. So if the makers of the game allow people to use treasure cards in pvp, HOW can it be cheating?

I started a post about disabling the word CHEATER in the game for this exact reason - that people confuse CHEATING with anything they don't personally like. I won't disagree with the fact that Wild Bolts, Chain Stuns, Treasure Cards, and a whole host of other things could use some modifications to make this game a bit more enjoyable for me, personally. However, until KI makes any changes, all of these are LEGITIMATE parts of the game. Accept it and adjust your strategy, or else MOVE on. Like me you don't have to like everything, but don't take your dissatisfaction about these things against your opponent who is within the rules of the game.

I think forums like this are great to get your point across to KI - they really need to hear this stuff. Tell them what you think, tell them what you want, and by all means tell them WHY. However, before you cast aspersions about your fellow wizard, PLEASE keep in mind what CHEATING really means. It's my belief that 99.99% of what people think is cheating isn't, as 3RDSense has so wonderfully illustrated.

RECAP - just because someone does something you don't like does NOT make it cheating - Theoretically, hypothetically, or TECHNICALLY.

mlb


I agree with that. Recently I was in a pvp and I had used a cyclops minion. Some people say at the beginning "no minions", and I'm fine with that, but when I summoned one he called me a cheater.

At the end of the fight(I won)...

Me: gg

Him: No noob

Me: ..?

Him: you cheated

Me: No I didn't

Him: yay (that meant yes i did ) Using summons is cheating

Me: no it isn't i can use minions if i want to

Anyway you get the point. Also he was myth like me, so he had all the minions he still thinks they're cheating.


Defender
Dec 23, 2009
129
My sideboard is bone dry. I do not use treasure cards, and never will. I don't consider them to be "cheating" per se, but I've discovered that treasure cards are nothing more than a tool to bridge a gap in PvPers that skill should be doing.

My personal belief is that if I can't beat you without treasure cards, I need to improve my game that much more. If you beat me with a dozen treasure cards while I use none, it means that I am a superior player who just happened to lose that match because you had to make up for a complete lack in skill with extra gold. I can sleep well knowing that.

Part of me hopes that they never ban treasure cards in arena. My main belief behind this is that so many people will be exposed for their mediocre skills to the point where they will simply stop playing. I don't like waiting for games, and I beat enough "treasure card warlords" to keep a good rating.

Explorer
Feb 26, 2009
89
Agreed, my Death Grandmaster was in a 4v4 match, all the people on my team where ether grandmaster or VERY close. Suddenly a friend of my mom came in to watch the match and started mouthing off about what big noobs we where and yada yada yada. At a point I challenged him, he accepted, I told him NO TREASURES, and he agreed. We got into the match, we where both boosting, suddenly he casted JUDGEMENT, which he had no clothes for, and he was not high enough lvl for. I was so angry and he started sassing to my face. I think treasures should be BANNED from pvp, besides reshuffle of course. And there should also be an auto-report for people who act so rude

Survivor
Oct 26, 2009
34
I think there should be a max of 2 treasure cards. But the treasure cards have to be at your level or less .

Defender
Nov 25, 2009
160
nlhf1995 wrote:
We all love treasure cards, including myself, and they have proved to be very helpful. However, I dont think treasure cards should be used during a battle, this includes enhancing cards such as keen eyes, tough, etc. Yesterday, I went into a duel with a fire wizard and it was pretty evenly matched for a while. We both were about down to 500 health each when I had enough pips to put on a decent Ice Armor spell, being that I am ice. It had a value of exactly 1000. I went to cast a colossus to finish the duel when out of nowhere, he fired a wild bolt on me with a storm trap, elemental trap, storm blade, and 9% damage increase. This completely wiped out my armor and my health, causing me to lose. I dont think that it is right to use treasure cards during a duel, stick to your trained spells. If he was storm, I would of accepted it and admitted myself as fairly defeated but when just out of luck they have a wild bolt that a friend made that just happens to work, I dont think it is fair. If it comes with the robe or hat or boots then that is OK too but please no more treasures.


He could have had storm as a secondary school. Please consider that before you acuse people of using treasures.

My appinion is that it's okay to use treasure cards in pvp.

Squish me, bolt me, and fry me to death. I dont care. It's just a game.
Destiny Dragoncoin lvl 42 Balance. Secondary is ice.

Survivor
Mar 21, 2009
3
I only use treasure cards when facing big bosses - sometimes when I am going solo that's the only way I can complete a quest that involves high level bosses. As to PVP, I rarely play that way but I feel PvP should be treasure card free.

Defender
Aug 15, 2009
164
I love when other people use treasure cards. With equal wizards, and the other using a fancy wait seven rounds for a high card, the other non treasure user but good with his or her wizard can defeat the other in five rounds.

LOL that is how i won the most of my battles smiling while other one is waiting on pips.

1