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Time For A Change

AuthorMessage
A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1611
While I lost all motivation to play Wizard101 after every post on the Test Realm message boards that was related to PvP balance got locked and all PvP inquiries about 4 pip Shadow spells + Reshuffle's "fix" got ignored, I am giving this game one more chance on the message boards in hopes of some PvP fixes that players very widely agree on and constantly ask for. The gist is, KI, PvP needs attention. Denying feedback from an entire thread section was by far the most discouraging thing I've witnessed by any game company I've played for, and PvP needs special attention whether it means waiting for extra time on the next world or not. Here is not my list, but a list made of so many posts by your PvP community.

  • Change the turn system. After you changed the fact we can multiply our cards, playing everything perfectly on point is absolutely required from second since we have no control or macro to gauge our spell utility. From second, this means timing an enchanted hit perfectlywhen your opponent is open (shieldless) to make the most of it, playing shields exactly and only when you need them, and healing only when you need it instead of having some leeway if you mistime a heal because you can't multiply your Satyrs and just use another one if you played the first one poorly. In addition, you also added cards like Burning Rampage that demand the player going second to time their defenses perfectly or you lose the match. Because of this, we need the same turn system Pirate101 goes by, even if this means waiting a maximum of 2 minutes per turn. First turn gets to pick and play their card (for one minute), and second turn gets to react within one minute as well.
  • Increase block rating. PvP has so much randomness to it it's just ridiculous. In psychology courses, you learn that uncontrollable factors only cause frustration in video games, especially if there are large amounts of "luck factors." A few is okay, such as card draws, TC draws, fizzling, the occasional critical, but right now your luck factor is entirely match deciding and that isn't healthy for a video game. Tone it down by making the most game changing factor (critical) to be more consistently blocked at all levels.

  • Armor pierce resist. I'm not sure if you read the Wizard101Central message boards, but this idea is 100% agreed on there and also very widely agreed with here. At top level, in future equipment (hat, robe and boots only), we need gear that lowers incoming armor pierce. This way, players with very high resist (since resist is mainly from hats, robes, and boots) CANNOT combine armor pierce resist with 70%+ normal resist, and armor pierce + armor pierce resist may increase linearly. Theoretically, 425% armor pierce and 400% armor pierce resist will be perfectly balanced stats in future gear. The reason we need this is because the offensive boosts to counter Jade were overextended at top level and we need defenses now.

I have more items to add when this thread gets posted, no space.

Explorer
Oct 12, 2012
79
( Just saying this even though you are still posting your stuff)

As i keep saying in other threads, for stuff like changing the turning system, KI plz make this change a PvP test realm first before putting this stuff in game ( like broken rampage should have been so people can tell you how broken it is so you could change it before releasing it to live realm which it is sadly is in currently).

Just for safety reasons thank you.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1611
Continuing the list:

  • Better player communication. Often, Wizard101 has extremely late bug fixes or exploitation fixes that have nothing to do with the actual problem. Examples of such are when it took KI 6 and a half+ years to find out that Reshuffle multiplied cards, despite it being so integral for most PvP and PvE strategies to function. Another was their first attempt to fix Bad Juju Jades by making TC Bad Jujus cost 3 pips instead of 2, while the issue was that Bad Juju could be multiplied. It's quite obvious that this game lacks the player communication that even other games like Pirate101 offer (look at Ratbeard on the message boards there). Playtesting your own game is a great start too.


  • Periodic balance changes. Whether PvP is the center point of a game or not, I see nearly every successful game having these. League of Legends, Dota, Pokemon, even mobile games such as Clash Royale, etc. LoL and Dota are extremely popular for their constant balanced gameplay and Wizard101 absolutely needs this for PvP. It's annoying that some of the most game changing spells or spells most widely deemed as overpowered weren't even brought through Test Realm (Loremaster, Burning Rampage, etc.) and were just put into the game. If KI wishes to bring out "surprise" releases with new spells/equipment for players, then at least have balancing updates. This can be easily done in what's now forming into the "PvP Test Realm) in the summer. We've already had changes to Wild Bolt and Fire Elf, so I don't see why this is out of the question.


  • School balance. Currently, Ice and Fire dominate nearly every level in 1v1 PvP while other schools are very unfortunate and are widely considered the worst schools to play at all levels (Storm and Death). Wizard101 greatly lacks school balance and it'll only get worse if nothing is done about it. PvP is dominated by so few schools while the rest are just forced to make a new wizard.

Anybody agree with above? Disagreements? Anything to add?

Mastermind
Jun 26, 2009
390
PvP King on Dec 28, 2016 wrote:
Continuing the list:

  • Better player communication. Often, Wizard101 has extremely late bug fixes or exploitation fixes that have nothing to do with the actual problem. Examples of such are when it took KI 6 and a half+ years to find out that Reshuffle multiplied cards, despite it being so integral for most PvP and PvE strategies to function. Another was their first attempt to fix Bad Juju Jades by making TC Bad Jujus cost 3 pips instead of 2, while the issue was that Bad Juju could be multiplied. It's quite obvious that this game lacks the player communication that even other games like Pirate101 offer (look at Ratbeard on the message boards there). Playtesting your own game is a great start too.


  • Periodic balance changes. Whether PvP is the center point of a game or not, I see nearly every successful game having these. League of Legends, Dota, Pokemon, even mobile games such as Clash Royale, etc. LoL and Dota are extremely popular for their constant balanced gameplay and Wizard101 absolutely needs this for PvP. It's annoying that some of the most game changing spells or spells most widely deemed as overpowered weren't even brought through Test Realm (Loremaster, Burning Rampage, etc.) and were just put into the game. If KI wishes to bring out "surprise" releases with new spells/equipment for players, then at least have balancing updates. This can be easily done in what's now forming into the "PvP Test Realm) in the summer. We've already had changes to Wild Bolt and Fire Elf, so I don't see why this is out of the question.


  • School balance. Currently, Ice and Fire dominate nearly every level in 1v1 PvP while other schools are very unfortunate and are widely considered the worst schools to play at all levels (Storm and Death). Wizard101 greatly lacks school balance and it'll only get worse if nothing is done about it. PvP is dominated by so few schools while the rest are just forced to make a new wizard.

Anybody agree with above? Disagreements? Anything to add?
I cannot disagree with anything on your list.

However what you are asking for seems like it requires a total top to bottom revamp of player vs. player. I'm not sure kingsisle has the wherewithal to attempt that. Considering this is not something players haven't been asking for action to be taken on for years. They have been content to maintain the status quo and only dabble in minor corrections when players get too raucous about a particular gripe.

To get the point, kingsisle might need a drastic display from a large majority of the player base to move forward on this. Otherwise, this thread will be in the dustbin of PVP topics in a week or two.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
PvP King on Dec 28, 2016 wrote:
Continuing the list:

  • Better player communication. Often, Wizard101 has extremely late bug fixes or exploitation fixes that have nothing to do with the actual problem. Examples of such are when it took KI 6 and a half+ years to find out that Reshuffle multiplied cards, despite it being so integral for most PvP and PvE strategies to function. Another was their first attempt to fix Bad Juju Jades by making TC Bad Jujus cost 3 pips instead of 2, while the issue was that Bad Juju could be multiplied. It's quite obvious that this game lacks the player communication that even other games like Pirate101 offer (look at Ratbeard on the message boards there). Playtesting your own game is a great start too.


  • Periodic balance changes. Whether PvP is the center point of a game or not, I see nearly every successful game having these. League of Legends, Dota, Pokemon, even mobile games such as Clash Royale, etc. LoL and Dota are extremely popular for their constant balanced gameplay and Wizard101 absolutely needs this for PvP. It's annoying that some of the most game changing spells or spells most widely deemed as overpowered weren't even brought through Test Realm (Loremaster, Burning Rampage, etc.) and were just put into the game. If KI wishes to bring out "surprise" releases with new spells/equipment for players, then at least have balancing updates. This can be easily done in what's now forming into the "PvP Test Realm) in the summer. We've already had changes to Wild Bolt and Fire Elf, so I don't see why this is out of the question.


  • School balance. Currently, Ice and Fire dominate nearly every level in 1v1 PvP while other schools are very unfortunate and are widely considered the worst schools to play at all levels (Storm and Death). Wizard101 greatly lacks school balance and it'll only get worse if nothing is done about it. PvP is dominated by so few schools while the rest are just forced to make a new wizard.

Anybody agree with above? Disagreements? Anything to add?
JJ,

Your still here, I can't believe it...I am in awe. Going into my forth year (3 1/2) years away, and I don't
understand the game anymore.
I stopped in to watch some PvP (on my brother's account), and am glad I left when I left.
No one that I know is still in the game, except my youngest brother and you.

The very best of luck on getting any of your suggestions into play. Based on a rant from my brother, the
game really needs some help on the PvP side.

Happy New Year....
Joe.

Survivor
Oct 18, 2015
41
Explorer
Jun 17, 2011
71
I agree with you on every single topic. PvP does not get overlooked at much as it should. PvP is the thing that makes players spend all of there money on the game. KI is losing so much money from players leaving the game because of the awful PvP system.

Explorer
Oct 10, 2010
93
PvP King on Dec 28, 2016 wrote:
Continuing the list:

  • Better player communication. Often, Wizard101 has extremely late bug fixes or exploitation fixes that have nothing to do with the actual problem. Examples of such are when it took KI 6 and a half+ years to find out that Reshuffle multiplied cards, despite it being so integral for most PvP and PvE strategies to function. Another was their first attempt to fix Bad Juju Jades by making TC Bad Jujus cost 3 pips instead of 2, while the issue was that Bad Juju could be multiplied. It's quite obvious that this game lacks the player communication that even other games like Pirate101 offer (look at Ratbeard on the message boards there). Playtesting your own game is a great start too.


  • Periodic balance changes. Whether PvP is the center point of a game or not, I see nearly every successful game having these. League of Legends, Dota, Pokemon, even mobile games such as Clash Royale, etc. LoL and Dota are extremely popular for their constant balanced gameplay and Wizard101 absolutely needs this for PvP. It's annoying that some of the most game changing spells or spells most widely deemed as overpowered weren't even brought through Test Realm (Loremaster, Burning Rampage, etc.) and were just put into the game. If KI wishes to bring out "surprise" releases with new spells/equipment for players, then at least have balancing updates. This can be easily done in what's now forming into the "PvP Test Realm) in the summer. We've already had changes to Wild Bolt and Fire Elf, so I don't see why this is out of the question.


  • School balance. Currently, Ice and Fire dominate nearly every level in 1v1 PvP while other schools are very unfortunate and are widely considered the worst schools to play at all levels (Storm and Death). Wizard101 greatly lacks school balance and it'll only get worse if nothing is done about it. PvP is dominated by so few schools while the rest are just forced to make a new wizard.

Anybody agree with above? Disagreements? Anything to add?
One item to add, and it's from the Central Website, and I believe that Eric brought this up, but am not sure.

Remove the RNG from Shadow pips, and have them like the regular pips.
So, you would get a Shadow pip every so many rounds, for example you would get a shadow pips
every fifth round. Not sure this is exactly what was stated, but it's was something close to this.

Ice.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1611
Mr Talon on Dec 29, 2016 wrote:
I cannot disagree with anything on your list.

However what you are asking for seems like it requires a total top to bottom revamp of player vs. player. I'm not sure kingsisle has the wherewithal to attempt that. Considering this is not something players haven't been asking for action to be taken on for years. They have been content to maintain the status quo and only dabble in minor corrections when players get too raucous about a particular gripe.

To get the point, kingsisle might need a drastic display from a large majority of the player base to move forward on this. Otherwise, this thread will be in the dustbin of PVP topics in a week or two.
I agree, it would take a lot of time, money and effort for KI to make periodic balance changes to the game as well as reworking how the turn system operates in PvP, and you're right, if threads like these don't get lots of feedback of players really wanting a change for the better for PvP, then KI will just ignore it.

One thing we both most likely agree on is that PvP issues have been ignored for so long and "indirect" solutions (as most people on these boards call it, such as armor pierce + critical + damage inflation + damage creep) messed up PvP so badly that us players that have been playing the game for so long deserve a little more credit/attention when it comes to the biggest side activity in the game which we partake in.

Hopefully this thread can get more responses from players and can draw attention into future updates to come.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1611
Veracity8 on Jan 1, 2017 wrote:
JJ,

Your still here, I can't believe it...I am in awe. Going into my forth year (3 1/2) years away, and I don't
understand the game anymore.
I stopped in to watch some PvP (on my brother's account), and am glad I left when I left.
No one that I know is still in the game, except my youngest brother and you.

The very best of luck on getting any of your suggestions into play. Based on a rant from my brother, the
game really needs some help on the PvP side.

Happy New Year....
Joe.
Surprising to see you here too, Joe. While so many players and friends left the game years ago due to being so displeased with the way max level PvP has been going, even those "retreat" levels (Magus, Grandmaster, Legendary, Transcendent) for when the max level meta was failing have been abandoned ever since KI removed card multiplication. It's all the same few players going into matches or seriously low ranked players trying out PvP now. Just take a look at the popularity of Grandmaster PvP 3 months ago compared to now. I'm sure you observed that when you went to watch the queue.

Now it looks like max level is the only way to go in the game but the meta there is so unstable and poor that no level of Wizard101 PvP seems attractive anymore. The only thing that's been keeping me on the Wizard101 message boards is my membership, and when that soon runs out I don't find myself wanting a renewal any time soon if PvP continues to go in this direction.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
199
Could not agree more. KI needs to not ignore this post. If they keep neglecting their PvP any longer, then it will become even deader than it already is. Especially the turn system. This is something that has been broken for more that 7 years now, and its not like we haven't been bringing it up the whole time.

"PVP King" I'm not sure if you remember, but I responded to a threat of yours ages ago about changing the turn system. I suggested in detail how the new system could be implemented into the game.

So no excuses KI. We have even come up with the solutions to the problems for you. We are the ones who spend more time playing your game than you do. So its worth it to take note of what we are saying.

Additionally, I am a student studying game design. And if you haven't realised it already, I can tell you. PVP King is "spot on" with everything he said. If I had my own gaming company I would employ him.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
199
Mr Talon on Dec 29, 2016 wrote:
I cannot disagree with anything on your list.

However what you are asking for seems like it requires a total top to bottom revamp of player vs. player. I'm not sure kingsisle has the wherewithal to attempt that. Considering this is not something players haven't been asking for action to be taken on for years. They have been content to maintain the status quo and only dabble in minor corrections when players get too raucous about a particular gripe.

To get the point, kingsisle might need a drastic display from a large majority of the player base to move forward on this. Otherwise, this thread will be in the dustbin of PVP topics in a week or two.
I agree with what you're saying, but I thing there is an angle you're missing, and I think KI is missing it to.

First we need to ask the question. Is PvP being ignored because there are not enough players voicing their concerns? Or are there not enough players because PvP has been ignored?
I would say it's the latter. In fact I know it is. When I first started playing this game it was me and my three brothers all playing together. Now its just me left. I know why they quit because we all share the same opinion. Because the turn system has a serious flaw. No serious PvP gamer is going to stick around and play a game where both players are not matched fairly against each other. I'm the stubborn one who stuck around because I thought it was obvious and it would eventually be fixed. I could be wrong. It's been 5 years since I started and PvP has already died.

Regardless, the situation is what it is. And you are right that doing everything on the list would be too much effort for the small amount of PvP players that we have now. However we don't need to overhaul everything at once. My suggestion to KI would be to spend a little bit of effort tackling everything on the list one at a time. I agree with PvP King, the turn system is the biggest and oldest problem and belongs at the top of the list. Start with that and once sorted move on to the next.

Players will come back, not all at once and not right away, but they will.

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
818
If you ask me, a healthy PvP system is important to keep people busy. PvP effectively provides infinite content. It's something to spend time on after you've leveled all your wizards to 120 and gotten them all the best gear. Personally, the only reason I farm so hard for gear is so I can use it to PvP.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1611
Ghost stone on Jan 14, 2017 wrote:
I agree with what you're saying, but I thing there is an angle you're missing, and I think KI is missing it to.

First we need to ask the question. Is PvP being ignored because there are not enough players voicing their concerns? Or are there not enough players because PvP has been ignored?
I would say it's the latter. In fact I know it is. When I first started playing this game it was me and my three brothers all playing together. Now its just me left. I know why they quit because we all share the same opinion. Because the turn system has a serious flaw. No serious PvP gamer is going to stick around and play a game where both players are not matched fairly against each other. I'm the stubborn one who stuck around because I thought it was obvious and it would eventually be fixed. I could be wrong. It's been 5 years since I started and PvP has already died.

Regardless, the situation is what it is. And you are right that doing everything on the list would be too much effort for the small amount of PvP players that we have now. However we don't need to overhaul everything at once. My suggestion to KI would be to spend a little bit of effort tackling everything on the list one at a time. I agree with PvP King, the turn system is the biggest and oldest problem and belongs at the top of the list. Start with that and once sorted move on to the next.

Players will come back, not all at once and not right away, but they will.
I don't think the turn system is the main factor as to why PvP popularity decreased. I think this is the result of a domino effect of poor updates PvP-wise. Team PvP began deteriorating when low pip AoE spells became spammable due to enchants nearly doubling their damage (Gargantuan, Colossal) and the release of "spam charms" (Smoke Screen, both Plagues, dispels) made team PvP quite unpopular and team PvP died when Shadow Shrike and Shadow Enhanced AoE's were released.

As for 1v1, max level becoming extremely unstable and changes to integral game mechanics forcing players to adapt (critical being changed 3 times, Reshuffle modified 4 times, more demanding may cast talents, jewels forcing players to grind even more to remain competitive) drew away a lot of players as well. We've seen PvP participation dip heavily when KI separated critical block from critical. When this was changed so that critical was 1.25x instead of 2x like before, a large surge of players returned to the game for mid level PvP. Another huge participation dip is when KI removed card multiplication and permanently changed PvP. Meta changes are usually acceptable, but game mechanics seem to draw players away in mass numbers, at least from the Arena.

Also, I wasn't always on the "2 card phase per turn" side. The turn system was pretty balanced before 4 pip Shadow Enhanced Spells, dispel spam, Burning Rampage, Dark Nova, Sanctuary, Shatter and limited resources without card multiplication made going second a major problem, therefore my stance on the matter changed.

However, having 2 card phases also has its own flaws. Mana Burn's pip removal will actually completely stop an attack from being able to be casted. Fire Beetle will also be a huge problem since Fire wizards can stack traps on you until they know you don't have a shield up and then OHKO you if you try to go for an attack, which will be frustrating. It's a big problem since they can stack more Fire Beetle traps than you can carry shields.

Defender
Mar 31, 2015
108
PvP King on Jan 17, 2017 wrote:
I don't think the turn system is the main factor as to why PvP popularity decreased. I think this is the result of a domino effect of poor updates PvP-wise. Team PvP began deteriorating when low pip AoE spells became spammable due to enchants nearly doubling their damage (Gargantuan, Colossal) and the release of "spam charms" (Smoke Screen, both Plagues, dispels) made team PvP quite unpopular and team PvP died when Shadow Shrike and Shadow Enhanced AoE's were released.

As for 1v1, max level becoming extremely unstable and changes to integral game mechanics forcing players to adapt (critical being changed 3 times, Reshuffle modified 4 times, more demanding may cast talents, jewels forcing players to grind even more to remain competitive) drew away a lot of players as well. We've seen PvP participation dip heavily when KI separated critical block from critical. When this was changed so that critical was 1.25x instead of 2x like before, a large surge of players returned to the game for mid level PvP. Another huge participation dip is when KI removed card multiplication and permanently changed PvP. Meta changes are usually acceptable, but game mechanics seem to draw players away in mass numbers, at least from the Arena.

Also, I wasn't always on the "2 card phase per turn" side. The turn system was pretty balanced before 4 pip Shadow Enhanced Spells, dispel spam, Burning Rampage, Dark Nova, Sanctuary, Shatter and limited resources without card multiplication made going second a major problem, therefore my stance on the matter changed.

However, having 2 card phases also has its own flaws. Mana Burn's pip removal will actually completely stop an attack from being able to be casted. Fire Beetle will also be a huge problem since Fire wizards can stack traps on you until they know you don't have a shield up and then OHKO you if you try to go for an attack, which will be frustrating. It's a big problem since they can stack more Fire Beetle traps than you can carry shields.
Or just remove Fire Beetle and the like from the game. There, problem solved.

Geographer
Sep 19, 2013
818
PvP King on Jan 17, 2017 wrote:
I don't think the turn system is the main factor as to why PvP popularity decreased. I think this is the result of a domino effect of poor updates PvP-wise. Team PvP began deteriorating when low pip AoE spells became spammable due to enchants nearly doubling their damage (Gargantuan, Colossal) and the release of "spam charms" (Smoke Screen, both Plagues, dispels) made team PvP quite unpopular and team PvP died when Shadow Shrike and Shadow Enhanced AoE's were released.

As for 1v1, max level becoming extremely unstable and changes to integral game mechanics forcing players to adapt (critical being changed 3 times, Reshuffle modified 4 times, more demanding may cast talents, jewels forcing players to grind even more to remain competitive) drew away a lot of players as well. We've seen PvP participation dip heavily when KI separated critical block from critical. When this was changed so that critical was 1.25x instead of 2x like before, a large surge of players returned to the game for mid level PvP. Another huge participation dip is when KI removed card multiplication and permanently changed PvP. Meta changes are usually acceptable, but game mechanics seem to draw players away in mass numbers, at least from the Arena.

Also, I wasn't always on the "2 card phase per turn" side. The turn system was pretty balanced before 4 pip Shadow Enhanced Spells, dispel spam, Burning Rampage, Dark Nova, Sanctuary, Shatter and limited resources without card multiplication made going second a major problem, therefore my stance on the matter changed.

However, having 2 card phases also has its own flaws. Mana Burn's pip removal will actually completely stop an attack from being able to be casted. Fire Beetle will also be a huge problem since Fire wizards can stack traps on you until they know you don't have a shield up and then OHKO you if you try to go for an attack, which will be frustrating. It's a big problem since they can stack more Fire Beetle traps than you can carry shields.
I do think that Mana Burn will be a bit too strong in a 2 card phase situation, but it could be nerfed, maybe only take 2 pips instead? As for fire beetle, the only difference is that the fire wizard can also do it from second. The same situation happens from first.

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
199
PvP King on Jan 17, 2017 wrote:
I don't think the turn system is the main factor as to why PvP popularity decreased. I think this is the result of a domino effect of poor updates PvP-wise. Team PvP began deteriorating when low pip AoE spells became spammable due to enchants nearly doubling their damage (Gargantuan, Colossal) and the release of "spam charms" (Smoke Screen, both Plagues, dispels) made team PvP quite unpopular and team PvP died when Shadow Shrike and Shadow Enhanced AoE's were released.

As for 1v1, max level becoming extremely unstable and changes to integral game mechanics forcing players to adapt (critical being changed 3 times, Reshuffle modified 4 times, more demanding may cast talents, jewels forcing players to grind even more to remain competitive) drew away a lot of players as well. We've seen PvP participation dip heavily when KI separated critical block from critical. When this was changed so that critical was 1.25x instead of 2x like before, a large surge of players returned to the game for mid level PvP. Another huge participation dip is when KI removed card multiplication and permanently changed PvP. Meta changes are usually acceptable, but game mechanics seem to draw players away in mass numbers, at least from the Arena.

Also, I wasn't always on the "2 card phase per turn" side. The turn system was pretty balanced before 4 pip Shadow Enhanced Spells, dispel spam, Burning Rampage, Dark Nova, Sanctuary, Shatter and limited resources without card multiplication made going second a major problem, therefore my stance on the matter changed.

However, having 2 card phases also has its own flaws. Mana Burn's pip removal will actually completely stop an attack from being able to be casted. Fire Beetle will also be a huge problem since Fire wizards can stack traps on you until they know you don't have a shield up and then OHKO you if you try to go for an attack, which will be frustrating. It's a big problem since they can stack more Fire Beetle traps than you can carry shields.
Actually, the turn system has never been balanced. It's just become more obvious now with all the OP spells that can kill you in one hit if you don't have a shield.

You are right about what you are saying about Mana Burn. Using a spell from second on the same turn you get Mana Burned means you can still get the spell off even though you don't have any pips. However this very specific, seldom situation where going second would have an advantage, doesn't come close to making up for the disadvantage you have the rest of the time, and it's not a justification for defending the current turn system over a two phase turn system.
And how would Mana Burn be problematic in a two turn system? I mean, I get how it could be useful to a player wanting to stall their opponent for a couple of turns, but the pip trade is usually even. Mana Burn can be a very useful spell if used in the right situations, but I can't see how it would be game breaking.

The example you gave about Fire Beetle really doesn't have anything to do with the turn system. This is just a problem with the spell. What you said is right, in a two phase system, either player can wait until the optune moment when their opponent doesn't have a shield to hit, without there being a risk of a shield going up in front of you on the same turn. However with the current system, only the player going first has the ability to do this. At least with a two phase system both players will have an equal opportunity to do this. With that said, which system sounds like the fairer one?

Defender
Jan 18, 2013
199
PvP King on Jan 17, 2017 wrote:
I don't think the turn system is the main factor as to why PvP popularity decreased. I think this is the result of a domino effect of poor updates PvP-wise. Team PvP began deteriorating when low pip AoE spells became spammable due to enchants nearly doubling their damage (Gargantuan, Colossal) and the release of "spam charms" (Smoke Screen, both Plagues, dispels) made team PvP quite unpopular and team PvP died when Shadow Shrike and Shadow Enhanced AoE's were released.

As for 1v1, max level becoming extremely unstable and changes to integral game mechanics forcing players to adapt (critical being changed 3 times, Reshuffle modified 4 times, more demanding may cast talents, jewels forcing players to grind even more to remain competitive) drew away a lot of players as well. We've seen PvP participation dip heavily when KI separated critical block from critical. When this was changed so that critical was 1.25x instead of 2x like before, a large surge of players returned to the game for mid level PvP. Another huge participation dip is when KI removed card multiplication and permanently changed PvP. Meta changes are usually acceptable, but game mechanics seem to draw players away in mass numbers, at least from the Arena.

Also, I wasn't always on the "2 card phase per turn" side. The turn system was pretty balanced before 4 pip Shadow Enhanced Spells, dispel spam, Burning Rampage, Dark Nova, Sanctuary, Shatter and limited resources without card multiplication made going second a major problem, therefore my stance on the matter changed.

However, having 2 card phases also has its own flaws. Mana Burn's pip removal will actually completely stop an attack from being able to be casted. Fire Beetle will also be a huge problem since Fire wizards can stack traps on you until they know you don't have a shield up and then OHKO you if you try to go for an attack, which will be frustrating. It's a big problem since they can stack more Fire Beetle traps than you can carry shields.
And of course the turn system is not the only reason PvP is in trouble, I agree with your entire list, everything needs attention. It's just that this is the biggest problem. One of my brothers never played PvP past the first day because of this reason. How many other players do you think never even got on board for the same reason? No wonder not enough people voice their concerns about this. Because the people that would care, don't care, they are all off playing other games. An entire target market lost because KI failed to capture it by releasing an unfair PvP turn system. The reasons you stated above are all true and their effects can be seen on the already small PvP player base. It can be easy to blame it all on these updates because they are directly responsible for the shrink in PvP popularity. But this is only amongst the players that didn't mind playing with a flawed system in the first place. There is no way to compare it to the unseen damage that was done on the games release when a flawed PvP system was there to welcome all the potential future PvP gamers.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1611
Ghost stone on Jan 25, 2017 wrote:
Actually, the turn system has never been balanced. It's just become more obvious now with all the OP spells that can kill you in one hit if you don't have a shield.

You are right about what you are saying about Mana Burn. Using a spell from second on the same turn you get Mana Burned means you can still get the spell off even though you don't have any pips. However this very specific, seldom situation where going second would have an advantage, doesn't come close to making up for the disadvantage you have the rest of the time, and it's not a justification for defending the current turn system over a two phase turn system.
And how would Mana Burn be problematic in a two turn system? I mean, I get how it could be useful to a player wanting to stall their opponent for a couple of turns, but the pip trade is usually even. Mana Burn can be a very useful spell if used in the right situations, but I can't see how it would be game breaking.

The example you gave about Fire Beetle really doesn't have anything to do with the turn system. This is just a problem with the spell. What you said is right, in a two phase system, either player can wait until the optune moment when their opponent doesn't have a shield to hit, without there being a risk of a shield going up in front of you on the same turn. However with the current system, only the player going first has the ability to do this. At least with a two phase system both players will have an equal opportunity to do this. With that said, which system sounds like the fairer one?
The turn system wasn't complained about much at all until Wizard101 took a huge offensive shift. The reason I said it was pretty balanced was because the player going second had lots of chances to recover from mistakes or misplays other than bubble control or the occasional dispel, and eventually, if outplayed, the player going first would be on the reacting side rather than the player going second. That was a typical PvP match back in 2009-2013.

The fact that Mana Burn is an even pip trade (3 power pips, removes 3 pips) is the issue itself in a 2 phase turn system. Since the player going second would lose pips before they even got to choose their own spell, Mana Burn would just be a way to get free damage with absolutely no drawbacks. What Robobot said about making Mana Burn remove 1 less pip would make it more balanced in a 2 phase turn system; the Balance wizard will have to make a negative pip trade (opponent gets a 1 pip advantage) to deal damage; just like any other attack.

Fire Beetle doesn't make the 2 phase turn system bad, like you said, but it is one major flaw if the 2 phase turn system became a thing. Fire will be the outright dominant school simply because you can't do anything but constantly shield once those stacked Fire Beetle traps are on you. This already happens from second, but it'll happen from first as well and therefore Fire Beetle is going to have to be different if it were to be balanced. And I agree, the 2 phase turn system is much better than the one we have right now, at least as long as the game continues in this direction.

Survivor
Dec 21, 2009
2
My concern is the fact that when you are matched with a Jadezilla as I like to call them. It is very hard now to suppress heals. You cannot do it fast enough. You have to shuffle and shuffle and shuffle. But on a regular basis. Who carries as many reshuffles as the jades always do? Not many people. So you are either stuck with the option of fleeing or just passing till you die by a minion( the recent strategy i am seeing) or wait them out if they plan on just stalling. A game shouldn't have to come down to who flees first. At least when you can multiply things you can suppress heals and have more hits to try and kill them a lot faster. Before this update, I have faced jades in 1v1 and 2v2 ( I am level 87) I could kill some jades from second turn within a few hours and sometimes they just were better at stopping me from doing that. But at least I HAD AN OPTION that could help further the success rate in a timely manner. Now its like um. 1% chance of winning. Not every player faces their own levels ya know? Lets say a Level 60 High ranked in Glen Gear has to face a level 100 private in jade who knows what they are doing. Now lets be honest here. This is going to come down to who flees first because that 60 can hardly do much to kill someone in 100 jade and stop their healing. So how fair is it for you to have to flee half your fights now? Jades exist and the game has revolved around cloaking for many years. I cannot wrap my head around the idea of how in the time of PVP we need spells to be multiplied, it now can't be. I could see cloak not needing to multiply cards if jade Gear wasn't so dominant all over in pvp now. BUT THE FACT IS! Jade Gear is here now and we need cloak to multiply now more than ever! Not only Jade But Defensive Strategies are getting out of hand in general without cloak and enchants doubling things. You sit there in a stalling match basically, or flee? Give me a break.

Defender
Oct 15, 2009
129
I have been suggesting this for years as I take breaks from pvp: 1 card could bring a level of balance to pvp- Reversal.

If a person goes second and uses the card, it stuns the opponent for 1 round. From that point the person going second now goes first. That is unless another Reversal is cast.

They can be rare cards. This may not fix everything, but it would be about a close to adding fairness to a turn based pvp.