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Spell request: Counter to trap stack

1
AuthorMessage
Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Currently multiple trap stacking is one of the few uncounterable strategies in the arena. The only viable counter is the spell dimensional shift. However dimensional shift is only available to the myth class and has no TC versions. As such I would like to make a suggestion.

Suggestion- Make Poseidon a crafted spell: Poseidon uses a natural attack that removes all traps from himself. This means the mechanics for this spell already exists. Furthermore it makes the spell accessible to all schools willing to craft it. As an added bonus it would provide the storm school with a second crafted/dropped spell as it is currently the only school without said option.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
Dark pact.

Sacrifice.

Stacked shields.

All viable ways to combat trap stacking.

Armiger
Mar 18, 2009
2381
Eric Stormbringer on May 31, 2014 wrote:
Currently multiple trap stacking is one of the few uncounterable strategies in the arena. The only viable counter is the spell dimensional shift. However dimensional shift is only available to the myth class and has no TC versions. As such I would like to make a suggestion.

Suggestion- Make Poseidon a crafted spell: Poseidon uses a natural attack that removes all traps from himself. This means the mechanics for this spell already exists. Furthermore it makes the spell accessible to all schools willing to craft it. As an added bonus it would provide the storm school with a second crafted/dropped spell as it is currently the only school without said option.
Are you referring to school only traps (multi-stacking)? Universal traps can be removed from yourself with Sacrifice, Empower, etc. Cleanse Ward will also remove them one at time (at least remove some of the stacking). Not sure what you mean by only viable counter.

However, it does seem about time to introduce a Cleanse Ward type spell for all negative wards (opposite Shatter).

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Lucas Rain on Jun 1, 2014 wrote:
Dark pact.

Sacrifice.

Stacked shields.

All viable ways to combat trap stacking.
Those are ways to combat universal and death school trap stacking. Currently there is no remove all for specific traps. As for stacked shields that is countered by shatter(remove all positive wards). I would like to see a spell similar to shatter that removes all negative traps.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Oran of Urz on Jun 1, 2014 wrote:
Are you referring to school only traps (multi-stacking)? Universal traps can be removed from yourself with Sacrifice, Empower, etc. Cleanse Ward will also remove them one at time (at least remove some of the stacking). Not sure what you mean by only viable counter.

However, it does seem about time to introduce a Cleanse Ward type spell for all negative wards (opposite Shatter).
Agreed, it was multiple school specific traps that I was referring to and cleanse ward is not a viable answer because it is limited to 1 which can be easily covered by a tri trap.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on May 31, 2014 wrote:
Currently multiple trap stacking is one of the few uncounterable strategies in the arena. The only viable counter is the spell dimensional shift. However dimensional shift is only available to the myth class and has no TC versions. As such I would like to make a suggestion.

Suggestion- Make Poseidon a crafted spell: Poseidon uses a natural attack that removes all traps from himself. This means the mechanics for this spell already exists. Furthermore it makes the spell accessible to all schools willing to craft it. As an added bonus it would provide the storm school with a second crafted/dropped spell as it is currently the only school without said option.
Sacrifice, Empower, Fortify, shield, Vaporize, problem solved.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 1, 2014 wrote:
Those are ways to combat universal and death school trap stacking. Currently there is no remove all for specific traps. As for stacked shields that is countered by shatter(remove all positive wards). I would like to see a spell similar to shatter that removes all negative traps.
No, I also suggested stacking shields.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Jun 1, 2014 wrote:
Sacrifice, Empower, Fortify, shield, Vaporize, problem solved.
Sacrifice and empower address universal and death specific traps but do not address school specific traps. Shields can and are swept away by shatter and vaporize is as limited as any dispel as a counter for a specific spell.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Lucas Rain on Jun 2, 2014 wrote:
No, I also suggested stacking shields.
I know you did. I am pointing out that a spell to remove multiple stacked shields(shatter) exists. I would like to see a spell that similarly removes multiple stacked traps from yourself.

Astrologist
Aug 20, 2011
1077
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 2, 2014 wrote:
I know you did. I am pointing out that a spell to remove multiple stacked shields(shatter) exists. I would like to see a spell that similarly removes multiple stacked traps from yourself.
Until such a day as this "Trap Shrug" spell is created, you might try stacking weaknesses and plagues on your opponent, and using quick and powerful offensive tactics to scare the opponent into wasting pips on heals. The collection of strategies in this thread should be very effective without a new spell. If you still believe the new spell is necessary, you ought to pitch it in the ideas forum.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 2, 2014 wrote:
Sacrifice and empower address universal and death specific traps but do not address school specific traps. Shields can and are swept away by shatter and vaporize is as limited as any dispel as a counter for a specific spell.
Yes, Vaporize is as limited as any dispel, but by the time your opponent has so many traps on you and has taken off all their Myth dispels, your opponent should be dead.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Lucas Rain on Jun 3, 2014 wrote:
Until such a day as this "Trap Shrug" spell is created, you might try stacking weaknesses and plagues on your opponent, and using quick and powerful offensive tactics to scare the opponent into wasting pips on heals. The collection of strategies in this thread should be very effective without a new spell. If you still believe the new spell is necessary, you ought to pitch it in the ideas forum.
Thanks I am aware of the indirect counters, I would still like to see a direct counter and a negative ward counterpart to shatter. If my opponent can easily remove multiple rounds of stacked shields in one round with shatter, it makes sense for me to be able to remove multiple rounds of stacked traps with a spell.

Survivor
Jun 25, 2012
24
Traps are meant to boost spells. Shields are for blocking, just stack the shields. I don't pvp but i assume that's what this is all about. To lose the ability to trap stack against a boss is ludicrous; it's the reason there are so many traps available in the first place.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
I can see the utility of this spell idea. My big problem with it would be what school gets it? Also if you are going to add all inclusive counter spells like this, there really should be an opposite to enfeeble as well. These become too much in the end.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Jun 3, 2014 wrote:
Yes, Vaporize is as limited as any dispel, but by the time your opponent has so many traps on you and has taken off all their Myth dispels, your opponent should be dead.
No disagreement here, if you are fighting the average set opponent this works great. However against jade or GS/Heal boost users a constant pressure strategy can fall apart very quickly. Regardless, I would like to have the option to use this spell much as Shatter is an option.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
Kimberly Mistheart on Jun 4, 2014 wrote:
Traps are meant to boost spells. Shields are for blocking, just stack the shields. I don't pvp but i assume that's what this is all about. To lose the ability to trap stack against a boss is ludicrous; it's the reason there are so many traps available in the first place.
Unless PvE bosses started casting this theoretical spell frequently, nothing would be taken away from PvE. Furthermore, players have already faced bosses for whom trap stack is difficult namely Poseidon.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
seethe42 on Jun 4, 2014 wrote:
I can see the utility of this spell idea. My big problem with it would be what school gets it? Also if you are going to add all inclusive counter spells like this, there really should be an opposite to enfeeble as well. These become too much in the end.
Yes, I don't think that is a stretch. We already have a limited dynamic of the sort. Pierce to Cleanse Ward, Disarm to Cleanse Charm, Steal Charm to Steal Ward. A trap stack counter(and by extension a negative charm counter) would simply be an extension of this dynamic.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
I still have to agree with Eric, as you need to take all schools into consideration.
If one is to say, well you can all stack traps, not so in the case of Balance.
All of Balance's traps are removable with Dark Pack, etc, it doesn't have one
that can stay. That is not the case with all other schools, with maybe the exception
of Death (because of Empower, Dark Pack, etc TC's.
So this needs to be taken into consideration when this counter spelll is generated.
As it is now, a Jade can still stack with a convert if needed and take out the
opponent, with no way to counter.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 4, 2014 wrote:
No disagreement here, if you are fighting the average set opponent this works great. However against jade or GS/Heal boost users a constant pressure strategy can fall apart very quickly. Regardless, I would like to have the option to use this spell much as Shatter is an option.
Yeah, I do see where you're coming from, but it's just not right to make a spell like that. Even Shatter bugged me when it removed traps along with it, and the upgraded Shatter plus Enfeeble are really out of my taste in PvP. However, your Jade or massive heal boost spammer argument contradicts itself. If you can remove the traps on yourself while the Jade can remove all traps from him/herself, wouldn't that just prolong the match and have no ending results?

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 4, 2014 wrote:
Yes, I don't think that is a stretch. We already have a limited dynamic of the sort. Pierce to Cleanse Ward, Disarm to Cleanse Charm, Steal Charm to Steal Ward. A trap stack counter(and by extension a negative charm counter) would simply be an extension of this dynamic.
It's not really an extension of the same dynamic. Shatter and Enfeeble only remove positives. I think that was a conscious decision by the developers. The ability to remove all negatives from yourself and teammates removes a large section of tactics from the game, effectively removing the major abilities of some schools.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
PvP King on Jun 5, 2014 wrote:
Yeah, I do see where you're coming from, but it's just not right to make a spell like that. Even Shatter bugged me when it removed traps along with it, and the upgraded Shatter plus Enfeeble are really out of my taste in PvP. However, your Jade or massive heal boost spammer argument contradicts itself. If you can remove the traps on yourself while the Jade can remove all traps from him/herself, wouldn't that just prolong the match and have no ending results?
I don't know why spells like a trap cleric are just not right for PvP but thats an opinion stance and there is nothing I can really do to address it. As for defeating jades; trap stack on a jade is actually one of the more inefficient methodologies as it takes many more traps to effectively take down a jade than it does for the jade to take you down.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
seethe42 on Jun 5, 2014 wrote:
It's not really an extension of the same dynamic. Shatter and Enfeeble only remove positives. I think that was a conscious decision by the developers. The ability to remove all negatives from yourself and teammates removes a large section of tactics from the game, effectively removing the major abilities of some schools.
Oh definitely the case in terms of extension. I for one don't think it was a direct development call but rather a matter of timing. Afterall as I pointed out for Pierce we have Cleanse ward, for Disarm we have Cleanse charm. As for removing a majority of strategy, I don't find that to be the case as more play and counterplay options simply expands the game's strategic possibilities.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
4117
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 6, 2014 wrote:
Oh definitely the case in terms of extension. I for one don't think it was a direct development call but rather a matter of timing. Afterall as I pointed out for Pierce we have Cleanse ward, for Disarm we have Cleanse charm. As for removing a majority of strategy, I don't find that to be the case as more play and counterplay options simply expands the game's strategic possibilities.
It doesn't really expand strategy. Giving the nuclear option for every negative is a bad idea IMO. Cleanse are single target and only the latest one, FAR different than shatter and enfeeble. Having to deal negatives is point/counterpoint. It allows strategy and makes negative charms a viable part of the game. Your nuclear option takes them out of the equation completely.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1557
Eric Stormbringer on Jun 6, 2014 wrote:
I don't know why spells like a trap cleric are just not right for PvP but thats an opinion stance and there is nothing I can really do to address it. As for defeating jades; trap stack on a jade is actually one of the more inefficient methodologies as it takes many more traps to effectively take down a jade than it does for the jade to take you down.
In my personal way of taking down a Jade, probably because I main as a Balance wizard, is solely reliant on using Feint. The Jade sometimes does use Empower and such, but I can counter afterwards with a Mana Burn and deal quite a lot of damage, especially if I critical. There's also the amazing fact that they can run out too. If you put in a spell that removes all traps from self, then Balance wizards have a problem. Balanceblade is 25%, enchanting it (takes up space and is a waste for most Balance wizards) makes it 35%, then there's 20% from Bladestorm, 30% from it again, a possible 30% from Dragonblade, and that's about all you've got, while the Jade already has Earthquakes most likely or Enfeeble. I'm sorry, but as much as I want to take traps off myself, I just can't agree with making a spell for it. If Jades get ahold of that spell plus Earthquake, there's nearly no solutions to defeating them, unless you're capable of maintaining a pierce bubble and Infallible, which often will be denied by Fortify and a Sanctuary because Jade wizards don't keep offensive spells in their deck anyway.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
773
seethe42 on Jun 6, 2014 wrote:
It doesn't really expand strategy. Giving the nuclear option for every negative is a bad idea IMO. Cleanse are single target and only the latest one, FAR different than shatter and enfeeble. Having to deal negatives is point/counterpoint. It allows strategy and makes negative charms a viable part of the game. Your nuclear option takes them out of the equation completely.
The nuclear option has been given for positives and those are still being used. Once the pip cost is restrictive enough I don't see why an all out removal is unbalancing.

1