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Shrike Shadow Spell

2
AuthorMessage
Hero
Dec 16, 2009
723
Veracity8 on Dec 19, 2013 wrote:
Yes, any deviation from that play style for 3 rounds will increase blacklash, but any savvy player will be set up with infallible and stun block before bringing the strike spell out. So, the savvy player that is going first, will shut down any opportunity that the second player has, which is expected.

The person playing from first gains a huge advantage, an absolute incredible advantage. The second player is still blind, and can be shut down far easier than someone not a round behind guessing at the next move.
Does the second player gain an advantage with strike, sure, but no where near what the first players gains.
I don't see how you can even make this comparison, it makes no sense at all.

Ok, Ice has no low pip shield breaker that's not a TC. Ice's minion is normally not a factor, when the ice is second. Frostbite is 5 pips, not a Low pips shield breaker, bottom line.

I am certainly not talking central here, we are talking ranked. Most Ice do not have 85% resist, it's up in the 75% area for only two schools, Fire and Storm. Both of these schools easily have hit above 80%.
Take that 80% plus, and add 50%, plus 15% infallible, and then add in 15% normally added to the card (or TC in the Side) and what do you have, Ice resist is not an issue. Prove to me mathematically that you can add up the above pierce correctly, and Ice or any other school has any chance at all from second.
So this savvy agressive player is not only attacking rapidly but also defending? Why are you not on the offensive during this period particularly considering a glass cannon's pitiful defensive capabilities. Furthermore stuns aren't the only obstructive measures. A variety of obstructions such as weaknesses, tc bad juju and the now popular black mantle. Furthermore any significant attacks are obstructive not to mention heals. The person going first does gain an advantage but not drastically from what he could already achieve with spells such as shatter. The second round player however gains drastically with the ability to overwrite same turn shields, an ability that was never available to the second turn player until shrike.
I consider frostbite a low pip dot but i suppose that is a matter of opinion. If you really wish t have a trained low pip dot then i suggest the mutate locust swarm card. Regardless, the options for ice to shield break exist and are fairly easy to acquire. Only 2 schools do not have DoTs(balance and storm)
Of course we are not talking central tournaments, in those tournaments resist is limited to 52%. We are speaking of ranked where it is very commom to see ices with 80+% resist. Adding all the pierce you are speaking of requires a multiround commitment all of which can be negated in one round with a simple shield from ice. Yes it is entirely possible to win against shrike from second, i have done it and so have many others.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Dec 19, 2013 wrote:
So this savvy agressive player is not only attacking rapidly but also defending? Why are you not on the offensive during this period particularly considering a glass cannon's pitiful defensive capabilities. Furthermore stuns aren't the only obstructive measures. A variety of obstructions such as weaknesses, tc bad juju and the now popular black mantle. Furthermore any significant attacks are obstructive not to mention heals. The person going first does gain an advantage but not drastically from what he could already achieve with spells such as shatter. The second round player however gains drastically with the ability to overwrite same turn shields, an ability that was never available to the second turn player until shrike.
I consider frostbite a low pip dot but i suppose that is a matter of opinion. If you really wish t have a trained low pip dot then i suggest the mutate locust swarm card. Regardless, the options for ice to shield break exist and are fairly easy to acquire. Only 2 schools do not have DoTs(balance and storm)
Of course we are not talking central tournaments, in those tournaments resist is limited to 52%. We are speaking of ranked where it is very commom to see ices with 80+% resist. Adding all the pierce you are speaking of requires a multiround commitment all of which can be negated in one round with a simple shield from ice. Yes it is entirely possible to win against shrike from second, i have done it and so have many others.
Eric,

Let's not discuss a Warlord or someone with massive experience going second against someone with no or little experience going first. That's not the topic of discussion, imo. Take two players on equal footing, weather both glass cannons or not, and play it out in ranked. The imbalance is insurmountable, and I don't see how you can in any way disagree with that. Can you win against shrike from second, if the person doesn't have enough experience, yes, I won't disagree.
Again, I'll state what I disagree with, not the spell as it is, but how often the Dark Magic pip shows up. It's way too often, about every three to four rounds, from what I have see so far. I would like to see the Dark Magic pip show up less often, that is my point. Not to change the spells in any way, I see all of them as fine as is.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
3823
Veracity8 on Dec 20, 2013 wrote:
Eric,

Let's not discuss a Warlord or someone with massive experience going second against someone with no or little experience going first. That's not the topic of discussion, imo. Take two players on equal footing, weather both glass cannons or not, and play it out in ranked. The imbalance is insurmountable, and I don't see how you can in any way disagree with that. Can you win against shrike from second, if the person doesn't have enough experience, yes, I won't disagree.
Again, I'll state what I disagree with, not the spell as it is, but how often the Dark Magic pip shows up. It's way too often, about every three to four rounds, from what I have see so far. I would like to see the Dark Magic pip show up less often, that is my point. Not to change the spells in any way, I see all of them as fine as is.
From what I've seen it and what has been posted on the subject. You have a 20% chance of a Shadow Pip, every round and nothing changes it. Some battles you get it first round, sometimes you never get it. That works as it is. I've had loads of battles where no pip has come. Shadow magic isn't something you can rely on. Waiting around for that pip can get you killed, so you can't have a plan that ONLY uses Shrike.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Dec 20, 2013 wrote:
From what I've seen it and what has been posted on the subject. You have a 20% chance of a Shadow Pip, every round and nothing changes it. Some battles you get it first round, sometimes you never get it. That works as it is. I've had loads of battles where no pip has come. Shadow magic isn't something you can rely on. Waiting around for that pip can get you killed, so you can't have a plan that ONLY uses Shrike.
This is exactly my point, it's suppose to be around 20%, but that is clearly not the case.
I have not had to wait for more than three rounds to get a shadow pip at any time, in
the last few months. I can also state, I have not once enter into a PvP match, and
not got my Shadow pips within the first three to four rounds. I have been in the
Hades Dungeon and been able to cast it three times in a row, with np at all.

I am not stating what I have read, I am not stating what I have seen, I am stating
exactly what has happened on my Balance, Myth and Ice Wizards.

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
3823
Veracity8 on Dec 28, 2013 wrote:
This is exactly my point, it's suppose to be around 20%, but that is clearly not the case.
I have not had to wait for more than three rounds to get a shadow pip at any time, in
the last few months. I can also state, I have not once enter into a PvP match, and
not got my Shadow pips within the first three to four rounds. I have been in the
Hades Dungeon and been able to cast it three times in a row, with np at all.

I am not stating what I have read, I am not stating what I have seen, I am stating
exactly what has happened on my Balance, Myth and Ice Wizards.
I'm stating what I've seen in my experience too. I have gone through MANY boss battles where I have never gotten it or it came up 7-8+ rounds into the battle. You have just had a lucky run of the numbers. Yes, sometimes I get it right away and then already have another by the time it runs out. It's all just luck. In pvp it's been no different for me, and I rarely have had need for it because I don't rely on it even though I do carry one in my pvp deck.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Dec 28, 2013 wrote:
I'm stating what I've seen in my experience too. I have gone through MANY boss battles where I have never gotten it or it came up 7-8+ rounds into the battle. You have just had a lucky run of the numbers. Yes, sometimes I get it right away and then already have another by the time it runs out. It's all just luck. In pvp it's been no different for me, and I rarely have had need for it because I don't rely on it even though I do carry one in my pvp deck.
I'm not attacking you, just trying to make a point. I can't tell you how many times, I have had this spammed against me in PvP (1v1). When I say spammed, I mean used over and over, with maybe two rounds in between. You cannot always have the cards in hand, that can defend on this spell.

I pop out Mana burn three times in a match, and I hear people screaming "He's cheap, a spammer".

Wiping out your resist, when against a storm or hard hitting fire, or even a hard hitting Life or Death, is hard, especially when your second.

If you rarely see this show up, all I can say is that I'm shocked a bit. I have not once wanted to
bring in up, and not had the pip ready. I have only seen on person, when in the hades dungeon have to
wait for two rounds. This one spell does not ruin PvP, but it makes the game so fast paced, it does
destroy many strats. That is why I feel that the pip percentage needs to be dropped or corrected.
As it, at 20%, it should show up as a blue moon, not every few rounds.

At 60%, I can fizzle Super Nova three times in a row, so at 20%, it showing up so often is just
not right,,, not even close to being right.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
723
Veracity8 on Dec 30, 2013 wrote:
I'm not attacking you, just trying to make a point. I can't tell you how many times, I have had this spammed against me in PvP (1v1). When I say spammed, I mean used over and over, with maybe two rounds in between. You cannot always have the cards in hand, that can defend on this spell.

I pop out Mana burn three times in a match, and I hear people screaming "He's cheap, a spammer".

Wiping out your resist, when against a storm or hard hitting fire, or even a hard hitting Life or Death, is hard, especially when your second.

If you rarely see this show up, all I can say is that I'm shocked a bit. I have not once wanted to
bring in up, and not had the pip ready. I have only seen on person, when in the hades dungeon have to
wait for two rounds. This one spell does not ruin PvP, but it makes the game so fast paced, it does
destroy many strats. That is why I feel that the pip percentage needs to be dropped or corrected.
As it, at 20%, it should show up as a blue moon, not every few rounds.

At 60%, I can fizzle Super Nova three times in a row, so at 20%, it showing up so often is just
not right,,, not even close to being right.
I really dont understand how you are allowing someone to spam this on you in 1v1. Why aren't you taking advantage of the backlash, the fact they are locked into a playstyle? Why aren't you going on the offensive yourself? This sounds more like a playstyle problem than a mechanical problem. Personally I think 20% shadow pip chance is right on the money.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Dec 30, 2013 wrote:
I really dont understand how you are allowing someone to spam this on you in 1v1. Why aren't you taking advantage of the backlash, the fact they are locked into a playstyle? Why aren't you going on the offensive yourself? This sounds more like a playstyle problem than a mechanical problem. Personally I think 20% shadow pip chance is right on the money.
It is because you cannot always have the right cards, the correct number of pips, etc, at the right time.
When you are first, you can always get a clean hit, when you are second you are totally blind, making
the best guess you can. Do I try to take advantage of the backlash, yes, I use mana burn, I use
dispels, I use what I have or can get into the hand. Do I go offensive, yes, directly into a shield, because
I'm second and can't see the shield until it's too late. Playstyle problem, no when someone is second,
and can't see a shield put up, how can you call that a playstyle problelm?

I expect that you only use 7 cards in your deck, and always the the exact card you need right. I also expect
that you are always first, and never have to guess right? Or, you always guess exactly what the person
going first is going to do, it must be?

I'm also sure you didn't read anything that I stated, as I also stated that 20% would be right, but it's not
at 20%. At least read what I write if you are going to respond.

Mastermind
Jan 23, 2011
318
I see both sides of this argument but to say the truth, I think shadow shrike is fine in pvp. Everyone can use it and there is only a 20% chance of getting a shadow pip. You can stun, put accuracy debuffs, and force your opponent to heal or shield to add backlash and so your opponent will have to suffer from the heavy backlash. KI did make it clear that shadow magic is allowed in pvp so I highly doubt KI will ban shadow spells from pvp.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
723
Veracity8 on Jan 2, 2014 wrote:
It is because you cannot always have the right cards, the correct number of pips, etc, at the right time.
When you are first, you can always get a clean hit, when you are second you are totally blind, making
the best guess you can. Do I try to take advantage of the backlash, yes, I use mana burn, I use
dispels, I use what I have or can get into the hand. Do I go offensive, yes, directly into a shield, because
I'm second and can't see the shield until it's too late. Playstyle problem, no when someone is second,
and can't see a shield put up, how can you call that a playstyle problelm?

I expect that you only use 7 cards in your deck, and always the the exact card you need right. I also expect
that you are always first, and never have to guess right? Or, you always guess exactly what the person
going first is going to do, it must be?

I'm also sure you didn't read anything that I stated, as I also stated that 20% would be right, but it's not
at 20%. At least read what I write if you are going to respond.
The same limitations that you are stating also apply to the shriked player. Personally, I use shrike almost exclusively from second since from first I can already control the field of play. I have never seen a shriked player use a shield from first...why would they do something counterproductive to their health and offensive momentum? As for the correct cards at the correct time, of course I don't always have them. That is the game, you do your best to mitigate the factors that are out of your control. I did read what you stated and your observations do not indicate that the rate isn't 20%. Independent tests from different users on central and trials on duelist 101 have also confirmed that the pip chance is close to 20%. Perhaps a developer would be so kind as to tell us what the % is or even better update the stat sheet to reflect our shadow pip chance at varying lvls.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Jan 5, 2014 wrote:
The same limitations that you are stating also apply to the shriked player. Personally, I use shrike almost exclusively from second since from first I can already control the field of play. I have never seen a shriked player use a shield from first...why would they do something counterproductive to their health and offensive momentum? As for the correct cards at the correct time, of course I don't always have them. That is the game, you do your best to mitigate the factors that are out of your control. I did read what you stated and your observations do not indicate that the rate isn't 20%. Independent tests from different users on central and trials on duelist 101 have also confirmed that the pip chance is close to 20%. Perhaps a developer would be so kind as to tell us what the % is or even better update the stat sheet to reflect our shadow pip chance at varying lvls.
I am not saying that Shrike is not effective from second, and I agree that it can be useful, but
also can be counters with ease from the player going first. If that player can see ahead, and
has a reasonable amount of skill in pvp.

I will state again, if you are first, the advantage it gives you is almost total control and a fast
way to end the match.
Shrike in my opinion gives the person going first, such a huge advantage, it does hurt the
whole idea of the match. Since this spell has been added to the mix, I think now more than
ever the first turn advantage needs to be removed. They have done it in Pirates, they have the
code and concept, they should do it here.

Last item, if the chance of a Shadow pip is really 20%, then all other spells are incorrect
in their stated percentages. I would argue that the percentage is really much closer to
65%. I have used the Shrike spell more than enough to know that it's clearly not 20%.

Hero
Dec 16, 2009
723
Veracity8 on Jan 8, 2014 wrote:
I am not saying that Shrike is not effective from second, and I agree that it can be useful, but
also can be counters with ease from the player going first. If that player can see ahead, and
has a reasonable amount of skill in pvp.

I will state again, if you are first, the advantage it gives you is almost total control and a fast
way to end the match.
Shrike in my opinion gives the person going first, such a huge advantage, it does hurt the
whole idea of the match. Since this spell has been added to the mix, I think now more than
ever the first turn advantage needs to be removed. They have done it in Pirates, they have the
code and concept, they should do it here.

Last item, if the chance of a Shadow pip is really 20%, then all other spells are incorrect
in their stated percentages. I would argue that the percentage is really much closer to
65%. I have used the Shrike spell more than enough to know that it's clearly not 20%.
I myself would love to see a way to remove the first turn advantage, that would solve many problems with the arena. I doubt in can be implemented in core gameplay but if implemented correctly in PvP it could be a massive boon. As for the 20%, i would say it clearly is at 20%. Remember that a shadow pip has a chance to appear every round so it is easy to see why one would become convinced the % is much higher than expected.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
Eric Stormbringer on Jan 10, 2014 wrote:
I myself would love to see a way to remove the first turn advantage, that would solve many problems with the arena. I doubt in can be implemented in core gameplay but if implemented correctly in PvP it could be a massive boon. As for the 20%, i would say it clearly is at 20%. Remember that a shadow pip has a chance to appear every round so it is easy to see why one would become convinced the % is much higher than expected.
If you think that Shrike is even close to 20%, then I have nothing more to say..

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
3823
Veracity8 on Jan 12, 2014 wrote:
If you think that Shrike is even close to 20%, then I have nothing more to say..
No one claimed Shrike is 20%, it's clearly 100%. They Shadow pip chances have shown repeatedly in everyone's tests to be around 20%, except you who somehow get 65%. Consider yourself lucky since you're the only one in the game getting that kind of percent.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
953
seethe42 on Jan 12, 2014 wrote:
No one claimed Shrike is 20%, it's clearly 100%. They Shadow pip chances have shown repeatedly in everyone's tests to be around 20%, except you who somehow get 65%. Consider yourself lucky since you're the only one in the game getting that kind of percent.
Thank you so much for jumping on the attack bandwagon,
(with the curt remarks) , pointing out the obvious.

Yes, as anyone should have been able to realize, I was
inferring the Shadow pip, when I stated the Shadow spell.
Of course, there are those just learning the English language,
so I guess maybe not everyone……

Now, since you have stated the obvious, please allow me
the courtesy do the same.
At a 20% chance, the probability would be 1 to 6, or you
would have a 1 in 6 chance of the pips showing up.

Try rolling a die a few times and see how often the number
“3” shows up. It could show up within three rolls, or it could
not show up for 50 rolls or more.

At a 20% chance, the odds are 1 in 5, which means
that I could go 10, 25 or 50 rounds , and not have the Shadow
pips show up.

What bothers me is this, I have never, not once, gone
over four rounds, and not had the Shadow pip show up.
Normally it shows up within Three rounds and that is based
On my last (30) thirty PvP matches.

(This is my last post on this subject, reply only if you have nothing
better to do with your time).

Archon
Sep 17, 2012
3823
Veracity8 on Jan 13, 2014 wrote:
Thank you so much for jumping on the attack bandwagon,
(with the curt remarks) , pointing out the obvious.

Yes, as anyone should have been able to realize, I was
inferring the Shadow pip, when I stated the Shadow spell.
Of course, there are those just learning the English language,
so I guess maybe not everyone……

Now, since you have stated the obvious, please allow me
the courtesy do the same.
At a 20% chance, the probability would be 1 to 6, or you
would have a 1 in 6 chance of the pips showing up.

Try rolling a die a few times and see how often the number
“3” shows up. It could show up within three rolls, or it could
not show up for 50 rolls or more.

At a 20% chance, the odds are 1 in 5, which means
that I could go 10, 25 or 50 rounds , and not have the Shadow
pips show up.

What bothers me is this, I have never, not once, gone
over four rounds, and not had the Shadow pip show up.
Normally it shows up within Three rounds and that is based
On my last (30) thirty PvP matches.

(This is my last post on this subject, reply only if you have nothing
better to do with your time).
Like everyone has said, you've been lucky but also within the 20% parameters everyone else has stated. I find it impossible to believe that "usually shows up within 3 rounds" and "never, not once, gone over four rounds" adds up to 65% chances. Your own statements imply that is usually takes more than a couple rounds, meaning that a 65% chance is highly unlikely. Even your "worst case" that you claim, which I seriously doubt is true only because people seem to forget the round count when they are blading or passing or shielding or trapping. But even 4 rounds still places in the 25% chance range. And all tests have shown it to be somewhere in the 20-something range.

Survivor
Jun 23, 2009
2
The shadow shrike spell is completely OP. My fire friend was testing it out on me he hit me with 2 blades and i had 40% resist and a tower. He hit me with the King Artorius spell. It did 3000+ damage and i was like what the heck???? Shadow shrike makes high level pvp pointless.

Explorer
Jan 07, 2010
89
wizard508million on Nov 20, 2013 wrote:
i disargree with you it adds a hole new playing field to pvp and makes it more challenging so people can really be proud to be warlord unlike the level 1-10 warlords its not real pvp if your just gonna spam tc
really? you are gonna dis low level PVP. even with TC it takes strategy to win in low level. you have limited cards and still must set a strategy where the other wiz won't kill you with his pet, or heal with his pet or kill you with his overpowered epic higher level pet. Get real, don't diss low level PVP, I love low level and work extremely hard at it and low level is all about strategy in order to win against those who will come in with warlord gear, full powered pet, and high level TC cards. You get high level warlords coming in with all the gear from 1st age etc... and low level is tough. play it and see.

Basically your point it mute anyway, because in order for a 1-10 level wiz to become warlord they have to use TC's.
Once your wiz ranks up to commander you are increasingly if not always facing a level 32 wiz and up. Now a level 1-10 cannot beat a level 32 with just their basic deck and spells, its almost impossible, a low level warlord has to use TC because of the higher levels of wizards they face. can't kill a level 32 life wizard with a level 10 using troll and a zero pip minion!

2