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Removing Treasure Cards From Ranked PvP.

1
AuthorMessage
Explorer
May 15, 2009
55
Removing Treasure Cards From Ranked PvP

In the arena treasure cards are commonly abused, and cause serious imbalances in battle. The arguments against my proposition will likely be something like this:

"It's totally fair, and maybe you should be using treasure cards as well. If it's in the game why not use it?"

To this I say you are correct, and I do use treasure cards in PvP, and if I didn't, I'd likely lose most my battles. The bottom line is that treasure cards aren't necessarily needed in ranked PvP, and it would serve the arena better without them altogether.

"They allow players to remain unpredictable, and this change would make PvP boring."

There is nothing unpredictable about a level 12 wizard facing off in a ranked PvP match against Talos. Chalking such an imbalance up to maintaining unpredictability is a stretch, and I doubt it's what developers intended.

The reasons why PvP would be better without treasure cards:

* It will balance the battles in the arena.
* More wizards will be inclined to play PvP.

Ranked arena matches will become more competitive than ever before with this change. Please post below if you support this idea, and I'm also interested in those opposed to my idea. Lastly, I'd like to know if a suggestion similar to this has already been considered, and/ or responded to by a member of staff in the past.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to read this post.

Squire
Aug 04, 2009
554
I can agree with this. I mean I think it would make PvP so much more challenging and will really show who the good players are. If you don't have treasure cards think of all the new stuff you have to take into the equation. Now you have to think well I need to make sure i'll be able to draw one of my shields, balance attacks and heals. I think deck structure would become so much more neceessary if there weren't treasures. While I will stick by this.

I strongly believe this is just a dream that will never happen. So many people rely on treasure cards, and i doubt that anyone will give them up.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
The problem is, without treasure cards, a level 12 wizard would never be able to kill another wizard... With the amount of cards to heals is the deck, then also no having reshuffle any longer, the only way to win a match at that level, is to never play your last card...

Then how would that be fair when these low levels are having to face Legendaries now?

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
Remember the pvp tutorial? They teach you how to draw cards from your sidedeck, now why wouldnthey do this?.... Because That's the way kingsisle designed the game to be played.

Why treasure cards are good for pvp and the game as a whole


1) Treasure cards add an interesting dynamic to the game, if you knew every spell your opponent could use it would get pretty boring, strategies would be limited and many people like me would stop playing. PvP would become more about luck and less about skill.

2)Every good pvp'er has gargantuan versions of their own attacks or recovery cards like heals in their side deck, why you ask? So when you get an opening you can precisely attack at that moment, or healing exactly when you need it. You see, not only are you brining down the diversity but you want to make pvp too predictable and lame in my opinion.

3) All schools are not equal! Treasure cards help schools overcome their weaknesses.

4) kingsisle is a business, they need to make money to sustain and grow their company. Why would they limit something that makes them money because of a few people complaining about it? I mean really...


Explorer
May 15, 2009
55
travisAk wrote:
Remember the pvp tutorial? They teach you how to draw cards from your sidedeck, now why wouldnthey do this?.... Because That's the way kingsisle designed the game to be played.

Why treasure cards are good for pvp and the game as a whole



No need to be so condescending, and I'm not referring to the game as a whole, Just PvP.

travisAk wrote:

1) Treasure cards add an interesting dynamic to the game, if you knew every spell your opponent could use it would get pretty boring, strategies would be limited and many people like me would stop playing. PvP would become more about luck and less about skill.


I've already covered that whole 'dynamic' aspect of your reasoning in the original post, and there is nothing skillful about using your sideboard. In fact it would take more skill to not use the sideboard, and how would it be anymore about luck than it already is? You say these things with out any supporting facts.

travisAk wrote:

2)Every good pvp'er has gargantuan versions of their own attacks or recovery cards like heals in their side deck, why you ask? So when you get an opening you can precisely attack at that moment, or healing exactly when you need it. You see, not only are you brining down the diversity but you want to make pvp too predictable and lame in my opinion.


You again repeat that it will make PvP boring, and I just don't get where your going with that. If you want to be dynamic and/ or versatile, learn another school of magic. I'd give up unpredictability any day to permit low level wizards from using insanely high rank spells to win ranked PvP matches. This change will effectively add more challenge to the arena, and would benefit the game in the long run.

travisAk wrote:

3) All schools are not equal! Treasure cards help schools overcome their weaknesses.


I totally disagree with you, The schools are all equal, and there are many trainable spells that support a schools weakness.

travisAk wrote:
4) kingsisle is a business, they need to make money to sustain and grow their company. Why would they limit something that makes them money because of a few people complaining about it? I mean really...


I'm not complaining, and you do not work for KingsIsle, and therefore your assertions aren't valid.

From what I've gathered so far, some are against it, and others for it. So my revised suggestion is PvP could be optimized by eliminating treasure cards ranked higher than a wizards level from the side board.

With this, You can be unpredictable as you call it, and still maintain balance in the arena. How does that proposition sound? I'm eager to read a response.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
travisAk wrote:
4) kingsisle is a business, they need to make money to sustain and grow their company. Why would they limit something that makes them money because of a few people complaining about it? I mean really...

Mega wrote:
I'm not complaining, and you do not work for KingsIsle, and therefore your assertions aren't valid.
----------------------------------------------

Mega,

I have never agreed with Travis (that I remember), and I really hate to start now. In this one case, his assertions are valid, and are valid for any company.
If a company does not have income, it cannot sustain itself or it's employee base. Second, it cannot add enhancements to the game, or grow the business.
To add to that, KI appears to me to only have the Crown sales and Subscriptions (,etc) to maintain it's income on-line. Part of the crown sales are Treasure cards.
So in this one case, and this one case only, I have to begrudgingly agree with him.

Joe.


Mastermind
May 02, 2009
356
treasure cards are part of the game but can only be used once(that's why i don't uses them). but how do you know if soneone is using a treasure card.

Survivor
Jun 13, 2010
30
Well i really think removing all treasures from pvp is a bit unnessicary and allowing low level wizards to use high rank spells isnt the right way to go either. Hasnt anyone ever thought that ALL treasures should have level resrictions?
Example: A tempest treasure card should be restricted to level thirty wizards and up? (its around the level storm wizards get their tempest spell so i think its fair)
Wouldnt it work out alot better that way?
Just giving my suggestion hope you all think about it and like it,
Anthony Lifeheart
Level 42 Master Theurgist
Honorary Detective

Hero
Nov 22, 2010
749
I completely agree.

I do use treasures, yes

And I enchant all my attacks, yes

But right now I have to.

Right now, ranked PVP is all about who has the best gadgets: I.e. the best gear, best pet, best treasures, best tricks.

it would be nice if ranked was about who has the best SKILL

But to do that, all the tricks and gadgets need to be eliminated from ranked and players need to be matched up based ONLY on level.

Explorer
May 15, 2009
55
I'm glad this suggestion has gotten so much response, and I've taken into consideration all that has been posted. In the end, I think the best possible solution is forbidding use of treasure cards in PvP that exceed the rank of your wizard. I'm glad that we could all come to some workable understanding, and I hope someone from staff will consider these ideas in the near future.

Lastly, I'd like to say that if we all continue to contribute our ideas in this fashion, we are sure to make Wizard101 a better experience for everybody.

Mastermind
Jun 10, 2009
394
Well, if you removed treasure cards from pvp, then many players would be unhappy. I'd say the answer is to have a select button that asks weather you would like treasure cards in your duel. then click YES or NO and your all set!
William Crowthistle Legendary Pyromancer

Defender
Dec 21, 2008
187
I just think there should be level restrictions to some of the treasure cards.

That is my only idea for treasure cards.

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
There is a big problem that occurs with level restricting cards. The way the matching system is set up, people that choose to use lower levels are being matched up with people 30, 40, and even 50 levels higher than them as they go up in rank. Level restricting cards would only make the arena more uneven. This idea seems to punish lower levels for doing well in the arena considering the extreme mismatches described above.

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
XxMEGAxX wrote:
I'm glad this suggestion has gotten so much response, and I've taken into consideration all that has been posted. In the end, I think the best possible solution is forbidding use of treasure cards in PvP that exceed the rank of your wizard. I'm glad that we could all come to some workable understanding, and I hope someone from staff will consider these ideas in the near future.

Lastly, I'd like to say that if we all continue to contribute our ideas in this fashion, we are sure to make Wizard101 a better experience for everybody.


As this is my first post to the thread, I have a couple of things to mention. First, as it is now, I don't like that some treasure cards are level capped and others aren't. They should either all be, or none at all. Because of the valid issues with certain cards such as polymorphs and Talos in low level PvP, I'm leaning toward the former, rather than the latter. It seems appropriate to me that if you aren't a high enough level to have been able to train that card that you shouldn't be able to use its treasure version (at least in PvP).

Second, while I would really enjoy a ranked PvP option that doesn't allow treasure cards at all, in my opinion, it can't stop there. Treasure cards are a counter to arena gear, crowns gear, and "perfect" pets. In my opinion, a no treasure card option must also prevent the use of pets and all gear should be limited to non arena/crowns gear.

Finally, I also enjoy the "unlimited" ranked option like it is now, so while I like where you're going, I would in no way wish to remove the current option. People have widely varying views on what is "fun" for PvP and I just don't believe that we'll be able to arrive at "one" solution that fits everyone. I think that the real option is to determine a couple of different ranked "classes" of combat that could end up appealing to a wider variety of players.

Explorer
May 15, 2009
55
akifoniq99 wrote:
I just think there should be level restrictions to some of the treasure cards.

That is my only idea for treasure cards.


This is exactly what I've come to agree with, and it would truly improve the arena.

Champion
Apr 18, 2010
407
If all treasures were capped how would a magus team defeat a legnoob team. I rely on monstrous for defeating them.

Explorer
May 15, 2009
55
Solstice64 wrote:
If all treasures were capped how would a magus team defeat a legnoob team. I rely on monstrous for defeating them.


Legnoob teams shouldn't be allowed, and is yet another problem with PvP separate of the issue at hand. As I'm sure you can understand fixing a problem with another problem doesn't improve anything.

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
XxMEGAxX wrote:

I've already covered that whole 'dynamic' aspect of your reasoning in the original post, and there is nothing skillful about using your sideboard. In fact it would take more skill to not use the sideboard, and how would it be anymore about luck than it already is? You say these things with out any supporting facts.
You obviously have no comprehension of high rank or tournament pvp mechanics. Many different strategies depend on the substitution of randomly dropped main deck cards for chosen sideboard cards, this enables people to have more control over the spell line, essentially blending skill into a luck based game. The sideboard also allows you to counteract unlucky card spreads, for example if someone was down to kill range and had a bad card spread, they could discard their useless spread and draw that heal they put in their side deck. Limiting or removing spells in treasure form would not only limit spell choices but also limit strategy and combination possibilities, and in the process would dumb down pvp to the point where serious pvp'ers like myself would find it too easy and just play something else.

XxMEGAxX wrote:

You again repeat that it will make PvP boring, and I just don't get where your going with that. If you want to be dynamic and/ or versatile, learn another school of magic. I'd give up unpredictability any day to permit low level wizards from using insanely high rank spells to win ranked PvP matches. This change will effectively add more challenge to the arena, and would benefit the game in the long run.
Boring, with a set card range I could do many things after the first reshuffle. I would know exactly what cards my opponent will use against me, I could even count them and know exactly how many copies of each spell they were going to use. I have something for you to think about, what about the people without crowns that spend their training points randomly? Unable to buy back their training points the side deck allows them to use the all important tower they didn't know better to train while questing. You have to use a broad view when suggesting taking away aspects of a game as the consequences might affect more people that just you. As for low levels using treasures I just had to laugh a little, Everyone, yes everyone is afforded to buy, craft or harvest treasures from plants, why is it so bad for lower levels? Sounds like somebody got clipped in rank and is pouting here to me.
xXMEGAXx wrote:

I totally disagree with you, The schools are all equal


LoL, go level up a life wizard to legend and play 1vs1, tell me how it works out for you.

xXMEGAXx wrote:

I'm not complaining, and you do not work for KingsIsle, and therefore your assertions aren't valid.

From what I've gathered so far, some are against it, and others for it. So my revised suggestion is PvP could be optimized by eliminating treasure cards ranked higher than a wizards level from the side board.
I don't have to get a job a KI to understand simple economics. You need money to grow and sustain a business, treasure cards give them income, nobody buys them for pve.... What were you saying about being condescending?

Survivor
Mar 24, 2011
2
darthjt wrote:
The problem is, without treasure cards, a level 12 wizard would never be able to kill another wizard... With the amount of cards to heals is the deck, then also no having reshuffle any longer, the only way to win a match at that level, is to never play your last card...

Then how would that be fair when these low levels are having to face Legendaries now?


Darthj makes a very important point. Clearly the way the match up system is standing right now, not allowing any treasure cards in pvp would seriously make the match ups even more uneven.

Another point is that most serious wizards will not put their hit cards in the main deck, they prefer to enchant them and place the hit cards in what is referred to as the 'side deck'. Now a lot of wizards do not consider enchanted cards treasure cards because they are their school spells, but that in fact is not true, they are still higher power than the normal school spells so, these cards are in fact are treasure cards. Treasure cards are available to everyone and do make pvp unpredictable and more challenging. When I want to battle for fun, but not use my side deck I just choose unranked pvp.

If they do decide to take out treasure card usage, then I would like to suggest that they give us larger decks to use, since taking away the treasure card deck space would seriously limit wizards from using their secondary schools.

Though, one positive of restricting treasure card usage would be to limit the time factor of the matches, which at legendary status can become very tedious.

Survivor
Oct 04, 2009
6
I just dont agree you need treasure cards in ranked pvp to make things random they give you training points to learn spells in other schools not everyone from the same school has the same deck one person in life school could be trained in storm as a secondary while another life school student is trained in ice and death so its always random depending on who your facing and what they have trained in

Adherent
May 20, 2010
2902
Nicitas wrote:
I'd say the answer is to have a select button that asks weather you would like treasure cards in your duel. then click YES or NO and your all set!


That's a good idea. Let the craft/buy/enchant kings fight each other.

The ranking system needs to be fixed. the 60-1 clones vs 30-30ish PvPs are a joke and an obvious exploit of the system.

Historian
May 01, 2010
665
XxMEGAxX wrote:
Removing Treasure Cards From Ranked PvP

In the arena treasure cards are commonly abused, and cause serious imbalances in battle. The arguments against my proposition will likely be something like this:

"It's totally fair, and maybe you should be using treasure cards as well. If it's in the game why not use it?"

To this I say you are correct, and I do use treasure cards in PvP, and if I didn't, I'd likely lose most my battles. The bottom line is that treasure cards aren't necessarily needed in ranked PvP, and it would serve the arena better without them altogether.

"They allow players to remain unpredictable, and this change would make PvP boring."

There is nothing unpredictable about a level 12 wizard facing off in a ranked PvP match against Talos. Chalking such an imbalance up to maintaining unpredictability is a stretch, and I doubt it's what developers intended.

The reasons why PvP would be better without treasure cards:

* It will balance the battles in the arena.
* More wizards will be inclined to play PvP.

Ranked arena matches will become more competitive than ever before with this change. Please post below if you support this idea, and I'm also interested in those opposed to my idea. Lastly, I'd like to know if a suggestion similar to this has already been considered, and/ or responded to by a member of staff in the past.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to read this post.


i dont really think you are looking at the big picture. have you ever heard of that saying: a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step? if you stop using treasure cards, and prove that they arent neccisarily the key to winning, other people will gradually follow in your lead, but, the way that you are putting it, it makes it seem like you are a hypocrite (no offense).

ok lets put this in another way. treasure minions, although helpful, can be avoided. how? ignore them. think of it this way. if you want to kill a beehive, what do you do? you kill the queen bee. same thing applies here. the minion may be out one more turn, but if you kill the caster, he will die, and the worst case senario, its a tie.

it will balance pvp: ok, you know that "problem" in pvp? like a warlord magus is getting pitted agains private legendaries? usually, the legends will win hands down, because of the sheer power they have, but, with a couple of treasure cards, it jsut might turn the tides of battle. in other words, possible balancing an unbalanced thing.

more wizards will be inclined to play pvp: i think most of the problems with people staying away from the arena, is that people are too pridefull. people will be rude if they lose (not saying everyone is) false report, and some people just can not take the stress that comes with winning.

Delver
Aug 30, 2011
261
darkjohns wrote:
treasure cards are part of the game but can only be used once(that's why i don't uses them). but how do you know if soneone is using a treasure card.

You will never in a million years know what they are doing unless you have a Beguile up. Treasure cards are like a shadow of the unpredictable, if a wizard starts to write up a storm symbol, you will never know whether he/she will cast a thunder snake or use a storm lord.

Delver
Aug 30, 2011
261
BattleCrabs1 wrote:
I just dont agree you need treasure cards in ranked pvp to make things random they give you training points to learn spells in other schools not everyone from the same school has the same deck one person in life school could be trained in storm as a secondary while another life school student is trained in ice and death so its always random depending on who your facing and what they have trained in

By the way you are saying "we need treasure cards in RANKED pvp" you are obviously another treasure warlord that never relies on his true skill but more on cowering behind a wall of tower shield treaures while letting a treasure minion do the work.

A+ Student
Mar 02, 2010
1623
XxMEGAxX wrote:
Removing Treasure Cards From Ranked PvP

In the arena treasure cards are commonly abused, and cause serious imbalances in battle. The arguments against my proposition will likely be something like this:

"It's totally fair, and maybe you should be using treasure cards as well. If it's in the game why not use it?"

To this I say you are correct, and I do use treasure cards in PvP, and if I didn't, I'd likely lose most my battles. The bottom line is that treasure cards aren't necessarily needed in ranked PvP, and it would serve the arena better without them altogether.

"They allow players to remain unpredictable, and this change would make PvP boring."

There is nothing unpredictable about a level 12 wizard facing off in a ranked PvP match against Talos. Chalking such an imbalance up to maintaining unpredictability is a stretch, and I doubt it's what developers intended.

The reasons why PvP would be better without treasure cards:

* It will balance the battles in the arena.
* More wizards will be inclined to play PvP.

Ranked arena matches will become more competitive than ever before with this change. Please post below if you support this idea, and I'm also interested in those opposed to my idea. Lastly, I'd like to know if a suggestion similar to this has already been considered, and/ or responded to by a member of staff in the past.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to read this post.


If there weren't any treasure cards in ranked pvp, then you'd have to be the top level to ever get to warlord. Ever think of that? Treasure cards are actually important in ranked pvp, being unpredictable is good, it's strategy. People use treasure cards in ranked pvp because they sometimes need it. It's important and makes pvp more fun. Also, how would you use garged up spells? They would be blocked from the match, so you just wasted a card?

1