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PVP will be your demise

AuthorMessage
Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
332
<font color='blue'><b>After all the controversy and complaints surrounding PVP, I took it upon myself to venture into the arena. I currently have 4 Legendary wizards and one Master so I got bored with continuous questing and decided to try out the dreaded PVP arena. I thought to myself, "it can't be all that bad; it's skill against skill." Boy, was I in for a wake up call!
<br />
<br /> PVP is not about skill, it is about who can contrive the best way to cheat and win.
<br />
<br /> Take today for example, I took my level 39 Diviner into the Arena expecting to get some entertainment. my first battle was Ok. My opponent asked me to flee because he really needed the win but I told him it was my first duel ever on that wiz and it wasn't a good way to start. We were both storm and after several rounds, I defeated him. We were having pleasant conversation throughtout the whole match. It was a fair match and even though he was upset about loosing, there was no hard feelings.
<br />
<br /> Well, I'm thinking PVP is not so bad after all. But my next fights after that gave me a rude awakening. First of all, these PVP players who cannot make Warlord status as a Legend or grandmaster, are now creating a "noob" wizard and buying crown gears, and treasure cards to beat up unsuspecting low levels who go into the arena so that THEY can now become warlords.
<br />
<br /> In addtion to the crown gear and high level treasure cards, they summon minions! Yes! In 1v1 don't expect to be fighting your opponent! These people pack their decks with minions and shields and their treasure decks with reshuffle and pretty much wait until the minion kills you or you run out of cards!
<br />
<br /> This is what happened to me all day yesterday! Needless to say, of the 15 or so battles I entered, i only won 2. I was so upset because no one was showing real skill as a wizard but instead, have contrived colorful ways to cheat you out of a win. it is very disheartening and I think something ought to be done about PVP.
<br />
<br /> Furthermore, for the high level duels, there is the constant tower shield spamming and now beguiles. I have never fought anyone who didn't use a tower shield, I seem to be the only one not using those. I thought towers were for ice wizards but EVERYONE is now using tower shields in PVP. What is the purpose of PVP? i thought it was for wizards to test their skills against other wizards on a fair battlefield.
<br />
<br /> But when it's not speed hacking so your opponent fizzles, or spamming tower shields, it's creating a noob wizard and beating up poor unsuspecting low levels who probably don't know much about the arena.
<br />
<br /> I know loads of people will jump to say, "well don't go into the arena then." well, guess what? I'm paying my $9.95 per month just like everybody else, so if I want to PVP then I should do so without having to be so disgusted and upset with the system.
<br />
<br /> I now understand why people complain about spells so much when they PVP because it's no longer about skill, it's about doing whatever you have to do to get that warlord badge.
<br />
<br /> i no longer look at warlords with reverence, nowadays, all I can think is that's probably the biggest cheater in the game. And to prove my point, I was in a street fight with a wizard who had the Warlord status and i practically owned the duel. I was surprised at how poorly this person was doing against street mobs that are,for the most part, predictable! I was like, how did he become warlord if he's such a lousy fighter?
<br />
<br /> KingsIsle Entertainment NEED to implement rules for PVP. I would suggest a ban but considering how long it has been in the game for, that would not be a reasonable position for them to take.
<br />
<br /> i have concluded that the MAJOR reasons why people cheat in PVP and make the game undesirable to most players is because of how the present ranking system is set up. When you enter the arena, if you win, you gain points towards your next rank but if you loose, you loose points and eventually your rank.
<br />
<br /> Because of this PVP has become far more dangerous than Morganthe! We all know what to expect in every world of the spiral. There are even guides and tips and how to win duels and complete quests. But in the arena, you have no idea what you are up against. Whatever you do, Do NOT think for one second that your opponent is gonna give you a fair fight ESPECIALLY if they are knight and above in rank.
<br />
<br /> There needs to be rules for PVP to make the areana a less dangerous place to go. I wanna go in and have fun, win or loose. Sure you might get a little annoyed if you keep loosing but if you lost fair and square, then it's WAY better than if the person cheated.
<br />
<br /> Here are a few solutions, please consder then:
<br /> 1. BAN PVP (a little extreme)
<br /> 2. Stop the deranking (win or loose,. you keep your rank and only advance)
<br /> 3.limit the use of certain spells to one or two per fight and not consecutively. For, example, beguile, dispel, stun, towers.
<br /> 4.BAN crown gear for low level PVP
<br /> 5. Have arena moderators who can pop in on a duel to see what's up.
<br /> 6. Allow Players to report a duel
<br /> 7. Make some spells NON PVP. Like minions. They were initially used to break shields but now it's gone way beyond that.
<br /> 8. Have PVP tournaments to determin Warlord status. Basically, what I'm saying is NO ONE can gain warlord unless they enter the tournament. The tournament would have rules and wizards would battle each other until there is a tournament winner and that person would get warlord status. That way, you cannot cheta your way into being a warlord.
<br />
<br /> Finally the easiest solution to this whole PVP mess is to just stop the deranking and let everyone advance to warlord just like how you advance to legendary: if you win you gain points but if you loose you do not gain or loose points but you still get arena tickets because you have participated in the arena.
<br />
<br /> The bottom line is Kings Isle NEED to do something about PVP or it could very well be your demise. Our collective voices cannot go unheard for very long because we are aware of the choices available to us and we might just avail ourselves of them.
<br />
<br /> I am etc.,
<br />
<br /> Logan Frost,
<br /> Aspiring PVPer- wanting to enjoy the arena.</b></font>

Defender
Feb 11, 2010
105
NicoUzumaki wrote:

Here are a few solutions, please consder then:
1. BAN PVP (a little extreme)
2. Stop the deranking (win or loose,. you keep your rank and only advance)
3.limit the use of certain spells to one or two per fight and not consecutively. For, example, beguile, dispel, stun, towers.
4.BAN crown gear for low level PVP
5. Have arena moderators who can pop in on a duel to see what's up.
6. Allow Players to report a duel
7. Make some spells NON PVP. Like minions. They were initially used to break shields but now it's gone way beyond that.
8. Have PVP tournaments to determin Warlord status. Basically, what I'm saying is NO ONE can gain warlord unless they enter the tournament. The tournament would have rules and wizards would battle each other until there is a tournament winner and that person would get warlord status. That way, you cannot cheta your way into being a warlord.

1. Yes lets lose a huge part of the player base and virtually the only reason a lot of us are keeping our sub. /sacrasm off.
2. There is a reason for deranking but reading your post you obviously don't know it. When my wizards reach around 1200+ rating i derank them too like a lot of other players. Some do this for easier tickets and others like myself do this simply to actually be able to get matches. There are not a lot of player at these rank and with the way the ranking system works when you get up there it can take over and hour to get a match-up and if you couldn't rank down some of us would be at rank several thousand and same problem over again.
3. Again don't start complaining to KI about changing spells because you can't formulate a tactics or adapt to certain spells when clearly everyone else can...Should specify, anyone good at pvp can.
4. Umm don't really care as i don't do low lvl pvp and if people want to spend crowns to try and get an edge it's fine by me. I don't spend crowns but i do everything else to get an edge in pvp like any good pvp'r does.
5. Why? It's not like you can cheat in the arena or use any hacks. There are the very very rare glitches but i hardly think it's worth for KI staff to spend time and money doing that for the thousands of battles being done each day.
6. Again why? You cannot cheat in wizard to no point in reporting a duel. You can report a player for foul langue if you like but as previously stated you cannot cheat so no point for this feature either.
7. Again don't go complain over spells because you are not a good enough player to beat them or can't adapt your tactic to it. Millions of other players can deal with minion and/or play with them so can you.
8. I'll say it again like so many times before. You cannot cheat. Warlod is just a rank that determin your win/loss ratio based on opponents ranks you've faced having a tournoment for this would just be silly. While i do think tournoments is a good idea it should have it's own set of titels and rewards. From Q&A we know there will in some future there will be a ladder and hopefully with that tournoments. If you are looking for tournoment there are plenty of different ones being held and sponsered over at central.

Didn't want to quote it all since most of it was lack of insight and failing across the board in tactics on your part. So just talking your short points and posting answer in a different color.

Astrologist
Aug 21, 2009
1205
what needs to be done is for Wizards101 to have a person or two whose only job it is to make PvP fair and enjoyable to all, all the extreme advantages of going first need to be addressed and fixed and all the ways people find ways to get cheap wins needs also to be resolved

the ranking and matching system needs to be redone and improved, and PvP should constantly be upgraded to become more and more challenging and fun

I agree with you when you say PvP will be this games downfall as it is the main reason many legendary players continue to play after reaching legendary and if it doesn't play as it should we will be leaving the game to something that is better. PvP is what should keep players attached to and playing this game, and yet it is never improved and favors the side that goes first and its quite clear that Wizard101 hasn't done or cared to do much with it. All of this leads to a huge drop in revenues I think cause people continue to leave over it when there is nothing else left for them to do.

Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
332

I find it very piculiar that you would hasten to past judgement on this post without first trying to understand my point of view. But as they say "fools rush in".

Cheating according to wikipedia.org " refers to the overt or covert breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process."

I think it would be expedient for you to analyze the meaning of cheating before you make statements that people cannot cheat in the game. it is quite obvious that the people who do not have a problem or "claim" to not have any problems at all in PVP are the ones who have resorted to unethical PVP strategies.

You do not know anything about my fighting prowess, therefore, you have no right to say that i am not good enough to beat other players. i didn't start playing wizard 101 yesterday and the only wizard i had the most help with was my pyromancer (my first wiz and first time playing). As i have stated before, I have 4 legendary wizards. I have never used hench men and i solo most of the game with my myth, death and Balance. I have all my lvl 58 spells, which am sure you are aware, can only be done solo.

I have never complained to KI about a spell and I have not said anything in this post that asked them to change any spells, so please read carefully before you go making such pronouncements.

Good wizards abide by certain unwritten code of ethics but most of these pvp players seem to forget what ethics means or that there is such a thing. At present, there are no rules to PVP or at least none that I am aware of. You go in, and basically do whatever you want to do in order to win. I am not aware of any competetive activity in the world that do not have any rules. if it's even "fall out of the ring and you loose".

The no rules to PVP is not an excuse to fight in an underhanded way. I have never complained about a fair fight. If the person beat you fair and square, you accept defeat and move on. Anything that gives you an unfair advantage over your opponent IS cheating. Not because you can do something or is allowed to do something doesn't make it right.

For example, you are standing in line at a bank for hours then someone walks in; go right up to the counter and is served, and walks back out while you are still standing there waiting. Is the person allowed to do that? Yes. Is there any punishment for this behavior? No. But is it right, is it ethical? No. it is not.

Same thing goes for pvp. There is no rule or consequence to spamming shields every round until your opponent runs out of cards, then you hit and kill them. It was the same thing with chain stunning and wild bolt and that is why they had to make changes. So don't pretend that people are not doing unethical things in PVP.

They say the fight between two skilled samurai is often finished in one move. If you fight with honor your opponent will respect you for it and may very well copy your stragegy. But so far I have seem little skill in PVP. How does spamming tower shields makes you a better fighter than me? I don't fill my side deck with towers because it's an underhanded way to play.

I was fighting this girl and she towers every round and she was not an ice wizard, she was life. Five rounds and all i can see are tower shields. She towers and used sprite and spirite armour. Deadly skills here right? So i ignore the towers and efreet. Fortunately i critical and she was defeated. How can you go into battle and not attack and expect to win?

Another girl took her minion to do the deed. Shields, heals, minion and reshuffle. How is that being better than me? How is that skill? when i go to fight Talos or Sokkemet, I can't wait until he runs out of cards, I actually have to hit him with my spells until his life runs out. Shouldn't be any different for pvp. I expect you to shield and attack.

Warlords rarely get paired up with warlords so it's not that you are the best why you are warlord. I have beaten warlords and needless to say they were so mad especially when their cheating strategy didn't work on me. i am a good fighter so I don't rush to the bazaar and buy towers or whatever. I don't buy crown gear. I go in with what the average player goes in with and in a fair fight, i rarely lost. sometimes i misjudge and it cost me the duel other times i anticipate my opponents move and i win.

it's not hard to win if it's fair play and you are a good fighter. but with the cheaters you don't know what new innovative strategy they are coming with and there is nothing in your deck that can prepare you for them.

long and short of it PVP needs a make-over. maybe it's own set of spells like gardening. You go to diego and you get your pvp spells which can only be used in the arena. I'd like to see how long some of you warlords last then!

In real life if you go up against a cheating opponent in any competition, you have the ability to change strategy and adapt and throw him off guard. In pvp you go in with a set deck, you cannot change and add spells if the playing field is not level. You just have to use the spells you have in hand and hope you win.

have you noticed that no one is complaining about the pet derby? Why? because you can't rush to the bazaar and fill up on treasures. You just have to work with the talents that your pet has and use those to win. That is where skill is really displayed. You work with what you have and use it to your advantage.

if you are so skilled why are you afraid to test your skills and strategy in an environment that allows for fair play? Having a tournament is a good idea. I am aware that central offers tournaments but what one does on central has nothing to do with your account on wizard 101. Therefore, if i was a tournament master on central, i can't walk around in wizard 101 with a tournament master badge, so that suggestion is null and void. Next time try to understand what you are reading before you post a response.



Astrologist
Aug 21, 2009
1205
NicoUzumaki, you must understand that the people on here that don't want PvP to be changed or at all improved and tend to be nasty to those who want fair play such as no extreme advantage of going first by using cards that only work well when going first are exactly the players who currently abuse the system. They enjoy abusing systems and will verbally attack anyone that tries to improve things (this sort of behavior is common in real life including work life as well).

Defender
Feb 11, 2010
105
Again didn't want to quote your wall of text as my opinion are the same as before basicly except you also contradict yourself in this one.

I read it all so i don't know why you assume i didn't or maybe it's just to come up with nifty little phrases like "fools rush in" because there are no other valid argument in your post.

You said yourself that cheating is breaking the rules. So i'll explain so you understand it. There is a set of rules in wizard101 and that's how everyone plays the game. You cannot and i repeat cannot break any of these rules there fore there cannot be any cheating in wizard101.

It doesn't matter what exaples you come up with regarding bank lines, sportsmanship, samurais or drywashers it's still not cheating as no rules were broken.

Sure you may not think that using treasure cards, crown gear, minion or out of school spells. But just because you think so doesn't make it cheating. It's an option that's avalible to all players and it's put in the game for a reason.

Personally i like treasure cards that they add another lvl of strategy to the game and when you set it up is the players way to counter a bad draw.

I don't see a problem with using out of school spells either as that's part of the stragety and the whole point of using your training points.

Love...absolutely love minions and never make a pvp deck without them nomatter what school i play and again it's a tactical choice.

As for crown gear the only one at lower lvl pvp that give you a slight advantage is the xtra pip wand. Other then that you are better off playing in warlord gear at low lvl pvp and the want is rendered totally useless at higher lvl pvp.

As for your example of letting the minion do the work and wait for the opponent to run out of cards I just got one word...Reshuffle!

So I say again that there is no cheating in wizard101 because you cannot break the rules. Just because you don't find certain things fair or lacked the knowledge there off to use or plan for it yourself does not make it cheating.

Again it sounds like your short commings and you want to blame it on someone or something else and make list and examples that really holds no place in wizard101 pvp to compensate for that fact.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
Ok, I have to agree with both the Poster and Mordikay on this issue!

How do I agree with both of you? Well, pull up a chair and let's talk about this, shall we?

First off, yes, there are a lot of people that will do anything and everything to win in PVP! Is it possible to cheat, it certainly is! How? I know you would ask that Mordikay! Well, let me explain.

Team 1 has Myth, Storm, Myth, Any
Team 2 has 4 players, does not matter, as they will never even get to play
Stun
Earthquake
Stun
Earthquake
Lord
Lord again, Frost Giant, Dragon, Scarecrow, Forest Lord, or Earthquake
Lord, Frost Giant, Dragon, Scarecrow, or Forest Lord
Not sure how or if anything could survive that, but if they do, then earthquake again. Any questions?

Now, is that, or is that not cheating? Mordikay? Now, as far as I know, KI was supposed to fix the fact that earthquake removes stun shields.

Now you might say, it's not possible to stun and earthquake that quickly! Stun all is a myth and fire spell that can be bought at the bazaar. Earthquake is a myth spell for only 6pips. Not that it would ever be, but, you can also use simplify or elucidate on it.

Now, once again, how is this not cheating?

It is cheating.

However, not many people have gone this far in tactics.
I do agree with Mordikay, some things are not cheating as the poster implies! I am sorry, but, dispel, Minions, Doom & Gloom, Weakness, Tower shields, Treasure Tower Shields, Healing, Pets that heal, Out of school spells, all this is not cheating!

You say that there is no skill in calling a minion and shielding until the minion kills you? I say if you let a minion kill you, then you have no skill. Sorry, but minions have very little health and are taken out quite easily. Now, I have no idea what level either of you are, but that should not matter, because if you can't win now in PVP, level up! If you are Legendary, then I suggest an entirely different strategy. Take it from me, I have 11 Wizards and all schools are covered. I have no problem beating any school with any school and I don't use Arena Gear! I think that is for wimps! People who need help because they are not good at strategies!

Ok, I have put in my 2 cents, so I will give you a penny for your thoughts!

Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
332
seasnake wrote:
NicoUzumaki, you must understand that the people on here that don't want PvP to be changed or at all improved and tend to be nasty to those who want fair play such as no extreme advantage of going first by using cards that only work well when going first are exactly the players who currently abuse the system. They enjoy abusing systems and will verbally attack anyone that tries to improve things (this sort of behavior is common in real life including work life as well).


Well, Seasnake, changes will have to be made and will be made regardless of who wants it or not. Fact is, those who resort to unorthodox methods in PVP will hide behind the guise of "strategy." It is quite laughable if you have to rely on one thing or another in PVP in order to win. That doesn't make you a good fighter. Most of these people whom you are fighting have to create several accounts in order to complete the game and win in PVP. Some rely on henchmen to get them through.

Fortunatley for us they banned henchmen from PVP or else those who "don't see anything wrong with it," would have purchased 3 henchmen in a 1v1 to do the deed for them and then say you are not good enough.

What i do in PVP nowadays is, if I want to increase in rank, I take my fire in and set up my deck and I PVP until I reach the next rank then I quit for the week or a few days. if I feel like PVP again I take in one of my privates and try to have some fun. So far this strategy has worked for me and my pryomancer is Knight after just 30 battles.

I don't have a problem with who goes first even though if you go first it gives you an advantage. Most times what I think happens is that the person or team with the highest rank gets to go first. That is what i have noticed in MY pvp duels. The higher ranking players always go first. Just try to have a plan for if you go first or second and have a strategy for each school that you may fight against.

if you have tower spammers just put in a minion or a 2 pip "damage over time (DOT)" spell and that should get the shields. Make sure you have that stun block spell from diego because some people chain stun. And yes it is possible to still chain stun especially in a team duel. So far, i have never been stunned with that 90% stun block that I learned from Diego.

For some schools it's not easy to do 1v1. For others it's better. So, if you have a fire, balance or storm, you definitely will increase rank faster in 1v1 but for the others you will do better in a team. I know ice is tough but snow angel doesn't do that much damage unless they critical.

So far I've never had an ice opponent win against my fire even though a few of them summoned minions.

Not to worry though KI is listening to us. I know it doesn't seem that way sometimes but they do listen and when they find an issue that is creating a lot of heat, like that wild bolt spell, then they'll jump in and make the necessary changes.

Just don't let anyone dissuade you from letting your concerns known. because if you have a problem and not talk about it, how will they know what to fix?

i am sure they are thinking of ways to improve the arena and ensure that there is a balance. Quite frankly, the arena can be fun (win or loose) if you go up against a good team.

there will always be cheaters, and there is nothing KI or anyone can do about that. Same goes for rude people, i meet them everyday at work but i maintain my smile and professional attitude and if they go too far; I simply explain to them that i will not talk to them if they continue to disrespect me. that usually does it.

What KI can do though is put some rules in PVP. I might not like them and you may not like them either but hey, if it makes the game a bit more tolerable, guess what? I'm all for it.

Keep the reports coming in about unorthodox PVP duelists, be specific about what happened and offer a reasonable solution. Belive me when I say KI is listening to us. They are listening and they will make the changes, it just takes time.

Continue to PVP and just try to have fun. 3v3 is a good way to start: you get match ups quicker and even if your opponents cheat, once you have a good team, they'll loose anyways and you can walk away smiling.
:)

Defender
Feb 11, 2010
105
seasnake wrote:
NicoUzumaki, you must understand that the people on here that don't want PvP to be changed or at all improved and tend to be nasty to those who want fair play such as no extreme advantage of going first by using cards that only work well when going first are exactly the players who currently abuse the system. They enjoy abusing systems and will verbally attack anyone that tries to improve things (this sort of behavior is common in real life including work life as well).

Since i'm the only one that have replied yet I must asume you include me into those people.

I have done none of those things and if you had some memory you'd know that i on numerous occations have written long posts on the current state of pvp including the continue updated version of Nick. S post here https://www.wizard101.com/posts/list/28376.ftl

I have already left my answers for the OP and while most pvp'rs are not happy about dispels, the huge advantage of going first and want to see these things change they are currently still part of the system and are therefore not cheating.

You can't say that people like these things either just to abuse it as they all play a factor in weather or not you go first and as going first in completly random and in the end should be a 50/50 chance you can't abuse it.

Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
332
Mordikay i wasn't going to respond to your comments but I didn't think it would have been polite of me.

I understand why you have a problem with this post but i will not get into that. I have taken the liberty of highlighting the areas is wikipedia's definiton of cheating so that you can understand why it is possible to cheat in the arena.


This is the definition of cheating that i posted before: " the overt or covert breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process."

Just think about the underlined phrase and see if you can understand the overall meaning of cheating and by extension the basis of my arguments.

Thank you :)

Hero
Jan 24, 2010
705
Cheating according to wikipedia.org " refers to the overt or covert breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process."

Seasnake seems to be establishing an argument whereby the determination of cheating is based in the second part of the definition of the word. S/he believes that some pvp'ers are "cheating" by breaking "...an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics, or custom...". His/her understanding of "cheating" is personal and subjective. Thus, perhaps it would be helpful for Seasnake to define her/his moral or ethical objections to current pvp strategies. Examples would be helpful to clarify the argument, otherwise we are all left to define moral and/or ethical rules that are being broken.

For example, IMHO, a theurgist who enters ranked pvp with the intention of doing nothing but healing him/herself as strategy to out wait the opponent isn't engaged in sportsperson'ish strategy. However, it is not against the established, published, rules of W101 for a theurgist to do nothing but heal until her/his opponent runs out of time and leaves the match. Thus, I may not be happy about encountering that theurgist in combat, but I can not state the s/he has broken the rules of the game. S/he HAS broken my personal code of conduct in pvp, as I would never use such a passive strategy in pvp, but I have to just take the loss and move on. Maybe I will be thoughtful about it and devise a strategy to nullify such a theurgist's approach the next time. However, I certainly can't expect KI to change the rules to accommodate my own strategical errors, nor can I charge the offending theurgist with "cheating".

QED

Rowan Earthsong
Scarlet Ravensong

Hero
Jan 24, 2010
705
PVP is not about skill, it is about who can contrive the best way to cheat and win.

PvP IS about developing skill and strategy over time. If you call that cheating, then what's the point of the competition?

Anyway, I TOTALLY got the name of the first poster wrong in my last reply. Sorry about that!


Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
332


I think your response is fair and unbiased. i am not here to claim that i am right and another person is wrong. And you have basically illuminated some of the things that are going on in PVP that is not necessarily against the rules but is considered cheating. For example ,chain stunning.

I may have been misunderstood on a few points or i may have faulted myself and not explain my point clearly. i was not stating that persons who use minions and dispels, etc are cheating. i have used dispels and weakness because those spells are available to me, I don't have to go buy them or anything. Treasure cards or not cheating either but it is the extent to which they are used and the way in which they are used.

If you keep using dispels on your opponent, that is not a fair way to play. relying solely on treasure cards is despicable as well. Why do you have your own school spells? Once again let me state that none of the spells are bad and people who use those spells are not cheating.

But if you do not have a problem with someone who stuns you then use earthquake to remove the stuns and you get Storm lord, which stuns you again and then you get hit with RA or some other spell and you all are basically dead without having lifted a wand. There is absolutely no rule against this, so Mordecai is right; they are not breaking any rules. But not because you didn't break an established rule doesn't mean you not cheating.

Rules just don't fly out of thin air; they are often put in place AFTER the fact and I dare anyone to challenge me on this.

For the record, i have four lvl 60 wizards and one master and a initiate.

i did get beaten by a minion on my lvl 39 storm and it doesn't matter what lvl you are. If your opponent comes into battle to rely on his minion then go right ahead and take out the minion. he re-summons minion and put up shields on minion and minions is attacking you at the same time.

I got a life dispel on me so i can't heal, my pet got dispel as well. Oh yes, that sprite minion that life summons can dispel your pet heals (no sure when that came about). So my opponent is behind storm shields, myth shields, tower shields, sprite armor and I have 2 life dispels on me, one on my pet. Her sprite is attacking, she is shielding sprite. i use Triton, kill sprite anyways. Wham! a reshuffle. Another sprite, my pet tries to heal, he's dispelled. Minion put another dispel, she used seraph, minion put life trap. I tempest, her health does move, minion dies, she re-summons, i got knocked with a leprechaun ( remember storm has low health). This continue for over an hour and then on her last reshuffle, she used seraph consecutively for two rounds, while minion is trapping me and my lights went out.

That clearly was the best strategy of PVP ever, I was not good enough to defend against it, right? No rules broken am just a lousy player, right? i should suck it up, get with the program or get out of the arena, right? if you don't see a problem with this Mordecai, then I digress.

There is also the people who use crown gear. They are lvl 5 and they have big health and at least 29% resist to all schools. I saw this Warlord dude with my own eyes in the Arena. i couldn't believe it some i called in my friends to check out his stats.

He was lvl 5 and Warlord, everything that he had on was crown only and each piece of clothing gave a universal resist percentage. I am quite certain that he has several Legendary wizards sitting in his dorm room who are probably private. can't win in high level duels; create a noob buff him up and beat up the low levels that have 500 health and no big treasure card spells and there you go, WARLORD!

it has happened, seen it. No rules but is that not cheating? maybe not to him or to others but to me that is cheating.



Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
332
queenlybluebean wrote:
Cheating according to wikipedia.org " refers to the overt or covert breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process."

Seasnake seems to be establishing an argument whereby the determination of cheating is based in the second part of the definition of the word. S/he believes that some pvp'ers are "cheating" by breaking "...an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics, or custom...". His/her understanding of "cheating" is personal and subjective. Thus, perhaps it would be helpful for Seasnake to define her/his moral or ethical objections to current pvp strategies. Examples would be helpful to clarify the argument, otherwise we are all left to define moral and/or ethical rules that are being broken.

For example, IMHO, a theurgist who enters ranked pvp with the intention of doing nothing but healing him/herself as strategy to out wait the opponent isn't engaged in sportsperson'ish strategy. However, it is not against the established, published, rules of W101 for a theurgist to do nothing but heal until her/his opponent runs out of time and leaves the match. Thus, I may not be happy about encountering that theurgist in combat, but I can not state the s/he has broken the rules of the game. S/he HAS broken my personal code of conduct in pvp, as I would never use such a passive strategy in pvp, but I have to just take the loss and move on. Maybe I will be thoughtful about it and devise a strategy to nullify such a theurgist's approach the next time. However, I certainly can't expect KI to change the rules to accommodate my own strategical errors, nor can I charge the offending theurgist with "cheating".

QED

Rowan Earthsong
Scarlet Ravensong


Interesting response. I like where this discussion is going. It is refreshing to see an intelligent response that does not rebuke or chastise the poster for stating their point of view. You are most certainly right: everyone subscribe to different code of ethics and their view of what is moral or unethical will differ from person to person.

It is indeed impossible for KI to penalize persons who display certain kinds of behavior that may go against another person's code of ethics. However, there are universal and unspoken moral behaviors that are implied even though there are no set rules to subject one to these ethical practices. For example, saying good morning, etc., is universally accepted moral behavior. There is no rule or law that commands you to do it. Should you not subscribe to this norm then, you have not broken any written law or rule and is not subject to any sanctions or punishment.

I did encounter a Thurgist that you so described above and it would have been difficult if i had been using a low level wizard. Fortunately for me, I had my Knight pyromancer in the arena. At first, I used a wand for the tower she put up but she just used another. So, I ignored her tower and spirit armor; bladed myself, put a gargantuan on Efreet and attacked. I got a critical and that was the end of her. Never lost against a thurgist anyways, so doesn't matter if they cheat or not. I'll get them.

Back on point now. It seems to me that because KI does not say that you cannot do this or you cannot do that, then it is right for you to do whatever, once it is not against KI rules. This is a flimsy excuse. We all know what is right and wrong. You can't have rules for everything: "throw him in jail because he didn't clean his room, lock him up because he was starring at me, charge him because he didn't put his hand over his mouth when he coughed". Someone shouldn't have to tell you to clean your room, or not to stare or to put your hand over your mouth. Your own moral values should let you know that these things are not accepted behavior even though there are no written rules or law that says they are.

Therefore, the onus will be on KI-since people cannot be trusted to do the right thing- to investigate those egregious "strategies" that are not "legally wrong (in wiz101) and make them an established offense.

Since we NEED someone to tell us that it is wrong to chain stun, it is wrong to SPAM towers and wild bolt, then fine. KI jump in and make it an established rule!

It is very sad that we need rules to do the right thing. what happen to our conscience?

Defender
Feb 11, 2010
105
NicoUzumaki wrote:
Mordikay i wasn't going to respond to your comments but I didn't think it would have been polite of me.

I understand why you have a problem with this post but i will not get into that. I have taken the liberty of highlighting the areas is wikipedia's definiton of cheating so that you can understand why it is possible to cheat in the arena.


This is the definition of cheating that i posted before: " the overt or covert breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process."

Just think about the underlined phrase and see if you can understand the overall meaning of cheating and by extension the basis of my arguments.

Thank you :)


It doesn't really matter how many times you link that wikipedia quote it's still not cheating. It has been mentioned by other then me aswell. Just because you see it as cheating or have some "unwritten" code it will never be cheating. I don't abide by any of the codes you might think is cheating and i'm sure most of the wizard community doesn't either.

You say you don't consider treasu cards cheating and yet you say you consider repeated used of treasure cards cheating. Make up your mind? We don't need your ruleset or any unwritted rules because there are already rules in place.

Everything you have mentioned that you consider cheating is still short commings on your part. And yes it is strategy and you consider it cheating, unwritten rules and what not because you cannot come up with a strategy on your own to combat it.

As for you example of a lvl 5 warlord i've seen lvl 1 warlord and so what? Everyone has the same options avalible to them with gear and spells. You probably don't know this as it doesn't sound like you have been close to warlord on any wizard but matchups are deternimened by rank AND lvl. So to actually get a very low lvl to warlord like lvl 5 in your example would mean you eventually fight a lot high lvl opponents. And remember that player does not start in warlord gear you have to get the tickets first and that's a lot of battles as a lvl 5 fighting higher lvl players who should be able to beat on you on lvl difference alone.

There are flaws in pvp but not really any you have mentioned but there is no cheating. I don't know if you fail to see there already is a ruleset in place and the 99% of the pvp communitity that doesn't have the same unwritten laws as you are not entitled to call everyone else a cheater too.

I could claim i have an unwritten rule that anyone that trow dmg spells at me is a cheater...See where i'm going with this?

The biggest flaw with pvp is and always will be (until fixed) is who goes first followed by dispels which should never have been introduced in the game but at the same time is only a flawed set of spells as they are only useable to the player going first bringing us back to flaw number 1 again.

As a sidenote you make it sound like it's easy to get to warlord and warlord players are just as unskilled as private and yet i'm guessing you never had a warlord. Granted anyone can get warlord and some get it easier(little braggin but i don't care, I usually get warlord from a fresh private in a couple of hours) but the fights doesn't get easier. The people who sit at higher rank warlord usually knows a little about pvp. There are of course also people ranking down so you can meet really good players at lower ranks but that's due to the flaw with the matchup system in order to earn tickets. I will state that there is a higher concentration of good players at warlord rank then at the lower ranks.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
Ok, a reply to a few of the posts.

First off, Nick dude, sorry, not sure of entire spelling. Thank you for agreeing with my post. No, you were not exactly clear on your view of cheating. And I am very unbiased when it comes to PvP. I very much enjoy PvE to PvP, but since PvP seems to keep changing my rules in PvE, I figured I had better get involved in their world and straighten out thier mess.

Which leads me to SeaSnake. Now, I will concede, that seasnake has a valid point on chain stunning that I have seen him post. However, he does whine and complain on a lot of other issues that he has no business to. Yes, Dispel should be in the game. No, Earthquake should not remove stun shields, prisms, ice armor, or absorb! Life should certainly be able to heal in PvP!
Storm does cause the most damage in PvP and in PvE! Now, as to WildBolt, the New WildBolt is more accurate and very powerful and can hit at 100%! Vs the old wild bolt that could and would fizzle! See my posts on Wild Bolt!

So, it is not that I don't like seasnake, but he does whine and cry on a lot of issues that are fine.

Now, on to other matters. I see that Mordikay did not respond, I take that as his quiet bow to concede!

As for you and your Fairy Minion and the life shielding. Sorry, but I can't see this as cheating. Carry a storm wand, your own minion, lots and lots of tempest, and lots of wildbolts with Monsterous next time. That is the best advise I can give to you, because from what I have heard, he/she outplayed you and had a much better strategy. Everyone plays differently and has different strategies. That person simply used what was available to them. Now, I am not sure nor have I ever heard of a pet being dispelled, but I know if your pet tries to heal, it will be dispelled if there is one on you. Also I have never seen a minion cast Dispel, so that might be new! Yet, I am still telling you that I do not see this as cheating. Now, spam shielding towers certainly does not help your cause, but is that truly cheating? A wise man once said, the best offense is a good defense. While Offense wins Games, a defense wins championships!

So, like I said, put your own minion in your deck, break out your storm wand, get those shields, put in storm snakes if you like, put monsterous on that, teach them for putting up towers! And go to work, because if anyone can keep a person on the defense, it is storm!

Survivor
Apr 26, 2009
1
NicoUzumaki wrote:
After all the controversy and complaints surrounding PVP, I took it upon myself to venture into the arena. I currently have 4 Legendary wizards and one Master so I got bored with continuous questing and decided to try out the dreaded PVP arena. I thought to myself, "it can't be all that bad; it's skill against skill." Boy, was I in for a wake up call!

PVP is not about skill, it is about who can contrive the best way to cheat and win.

Take today for example, I took my level 39 Diviner into the Arena expecting to get some entertainment. my first battle was Ok. My opponent asked me to flee because he really needed the win but I told him it was my first duel ever on that wiz and it wasn't a good way to start. We were both storm and after several rounds, I defeated him. We were having pleasant conversation throughtout the whole match. It was a fair match and even though he was upset about loosing, there was no hard feelings.

Well, I'm thinking PVP is not so bad after all. But my next fights after that gave me a rude awakening. First of all, these PVP players who cannot make Warlord status as a Legend or grandmaster, are now creating a "noob" wizard and buying crown gears, and treasure cards to beat up unsuspecting low levels who go into the arena so that THEY can now become warlords.

In addtion to the crown gear and high level treasure cards, they summon minions! Yes! In 1v1 don't expect to be fighting your opponent! These people pack their decks with minions and shields and their treasure decks with reshuffle and pretty much wait until the minion kills you or you run out of cards!

This is what happened to me all day yesterday! Needless to say, of the 15 or so battles I entered, i only won 2. I was so upset because no one was showing real skill as a wizard but instead, have contrived colorful ways to cheat you out of a win. it is very disheartening and I think something ought to be done about PVP.

Furthermore, for the high level duels, there is the constant tower shield spamming and now beguiles. I have never fought anyone who didn't use a tower shield, I seem to be the only one not using those. I thought towers were for ice wizards but EVERYONE is now using tower shields in PVP. What is the purpose of PVP? i thought it was for wizards to test their skills against other wizards on a fair battlefield.

But when it's not speed hacking so your opponent fizzles, or spamming tower shields, it's creating a noob wizard and beating up poor unsuspecting low levels who probably don't know much about the arena.

I know loads of people will jump to say, "well don't go into the arena then." well, guess what? I'm paying my $9.95 per month just like everybody else, so if I want to PVP then I should do so without having to be so disgusted and upset with the system.

I now understand why people complain about spells so much when they PVP because it's no longer about skill, it's about doing whatever you have to do to get that warlord badge.

i no longer look at warlords with reverence, nowadays, all I can think is that's probably the biggest cheater in the game. And to prove my point, I was in a street fight with a wizard who had the Warlord status and i practically owned the duel. I was surprised at how poorly this person was doing against street mobs that are,for the most part, predictable! I was like, how did he become warlord if he's such a lousy fighter?

KingsIsle Entertainment NEED to implement rules for PVP. I would suggest a ban but considering how long it has been in the game for, that would not be a reasonable position for them to take.

i have concluded that the MAJOR reasons why people cheat in PVP and make the game undesirable to most players is because of how the present ranking system is set up. When you enter the arena, if you win, you gain points towards your next rank but if you loose, you loose points and eventually your rank.

Because of this PVP has become far more dangerous than Morganthe! We all know what to expect in every world of the spiral. There are even guides and tips and how to win duels and complete quests. But in the arena, you have no idea what you are up against. Whatever you do, Do NOT think for one second that your opponent is gonna give you a fair fight ESPECIALLY if they are knight and above in rank.

There needs to be rules for PVP to make the areana a less dangerous place to go. I wanna go in and have fun, win or loose. Sure you might get a little annoyed if you keep loosing but if you lost fair and square, then it's WAY better than if the person cheated.

Here are a few solutions, please consder then:
1. BAN PVP (a little extreme)
2. Stop the deranking (win or loose,. you keep your rank and only advance)
3.limit the use of certain spells to one or two per fight and not consecutively. For, example, beguile, dispel, stun, towers.
4.BAN crown gear for low level PVP
5. Have arena moderators who can pop in on a duel to see what's up.
6. Allow Players to report a duel
7. Make some spells NON PVP. Like minions. They were initially used to break shields but now it's gone way beyond that.
8. Have PVP tournaments to determin Warlord status. Basically, what I'm saying is NO ONE can gain warlord unless they enter the tournament. The tournament would have rules and wizards would battle each other until there is a tournament winner and that person would get warlord status. That way, you cannot cheta your way into being a warlord.

Finally the easiest solution to this whole PVP mess is to just stop the deranking and let everyone advance to warlord just like how you advance to legendary: if you win you gain points but if you loose you do not gain or loose points but you still get arena tickets because you have participated in the arena.

The bottom line is Kings Isle NEED to do something about PVP or it could very well be your demise. Our collective voices cannot go unheard for very long because we are aware of the choices available to us and we might just avail ourselves of them.

I am etc.,

Logan Frost,
Aspiring PVPer- wanting to enjoy the arena.
I COMPLETLEY AGREE! thats why they still the words treasure noob, and noob be used though.

Astrologist
Aug 21, 2009
1205
As Mordikay wrote and I have written time and time again,
"The biggest flaw with pvp is and always will be (until fixed) is who goes first followed by dispels which should never have been introduced in the game but at the same time is only a flawed set of spells as they are only useable to the player going first bringing us back to flaw number 1 again. "

To me is anyone who takes advantage and exploits one sided flaws, which amizingly is always favoring going first, in PvP play, or in playing in such a way that was never intended to occur and has even been pointed out by Wizard101 as being a problem such as chain stunning.

I am appalled that Wizard101 does not fix these problems, and although I do complain you will find that my complaints are almost always and the same issues of unfairness that never ever get resolved.


Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
Mordikay wrote:
NicoUzumaki wrote:
Mordikay i wasn't going to respond to your comments but I didn't think it would have been polite of me.

I understand why you have a problem with this post but i will not get into that. I have taken the liberty of highlighting the areas is wikipedia's definiton of cheating so that you can understand why it is possible to cheat in the arena.


This is the definition of cheating that i posted before: " the overt or covert breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process."

Just think about the underlined phrase and see if you can understand the overall meaning of cheating and by extension the basis of my arguments.

Thank you :)


It doesn't really matter how many times you link that wikipedia quote it's still not cheating. It has been mentioned by other then me aswell. Just because you see it as cheating or have some "unwritten" code it will never be cheating. I don't abide by any of the codes you might think is cheating and i'm sure most of the wizard community doesn't either.

You say you don't consider treasu cards cheating and yet you say you consider repeated used of treasure cards cheating. Make up your mind? We don't need your ruleset or any unwritted rules because there are already rules in place.

Everything you have mentioned that you consider cheating is still short commings on your part. And yes it is strategy and you consider it cheating, unwritten rules and what not because you cannot come up with a strategy on your own to combat it.

As for you example of a lvl 5 warlord i've seen lvl 1 warlord and so what? Everyone has the same options avalible to them with gear and spells. You probably don't know this as it doesn't sound like you have been close to warlord on any wizard but matchups are deternimened by rank AND lvl. So to actually get a very low lvl to warlord like lvl 5 in your example would mean you eventually fight a lot high lvl opponents. And remember that player does not start in warlord gear you have to get the tickets first and that's a lot of battles as a lvl 5 fighting higher lvl players who should be able to beat on you on lvl difference alone.

There are flaws in pvp but not really any you have mentioned but there is no cheating. I don't know if you fail to see there already is a ruleset in place and the 99% of the pvp communitity that doesn't have the same unwritten laws as you are not entitled to call everyone else a cheater too.

I could claim i have an unwritten rule that anyone that trow dmg spells at me is a cheater...See where i'm going with this?

The biggest flaw with pvp is and always will be (until fixed) is who goes first followed by dispels which should never have been introduced in the game but at the same time is only a flawed set of spells as they are only useable to the player going first bringing us back to flaw number 1 again.

As a sidenote you make it sound like it's easy to get to warlord and warlord players are just as unskilled as private and yet i'm guessing you never had a warlord. Granted anyone can get warlord and some get it easier(little braggin but i don't care, I usually get warlord from a fresh private in a couple of hours) but the fights doesn't get easier. The people who sit at higher rank warlord usually knows a little about pvp. There are of course also people ranking down so you can meet really good players at lower ranks but that's due to the flaw with the matchup system in order to earn tickets. I will state that there is a higher concentration of good players at warlord rank then at the lower ranks.


No cheating eh Mordikay? Did you intentionally skip my post? Or are you just ignoring it because I flat out proved your wrong? Yes, there is cheating in PvP. There are flaws in the system and anyone who takes advantage of said flaws is cheating! If you don't understand what I am talking about, take the time and read my previous posts!

Now, I am not saying I completely agree with Nick whatever, or Seasnake, but I am saying it is possible to cheat.

However, some points that were made about using tower shields, minions, and as seasnake has posted(many times) Dispel! No, these are not cheating! Dispel is a very good spell and should be in the game. However, I would like to see them either removed from the bazaar, or, I would like to see Life, Death, Balance, and Myth Dispels added to the Bazaar as enchanted! Also sold in the Library, that would be fair!

I too, am sick of all the whining and complaining that goes on in these forums and I am trying to settle a lot of the disputes. Yes, I am harsh, but I am also very factual! So, if you can't take it. Oh well!

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080

Interesting response. I like where this discussion is going. It is refreshing to see an intelligent response that does not rebuke or chastise the poster for stating their point of view. You are most certainly right: everyone subscribe to different code of ethics and their view of what is moral or unethical will differ from person to person.

It is indeed impossible for KI to penalize persons who display certain kinds of behavior that may go against another person's code of ethics. However, there are universal and unspoken moral behaviors that are implied even though there are no set rules to subject one to these ethical practices. For example, saying good morning, etc., is universally accepted moral behavior. There is no rule or law that commands you to do it. Should you not subscribe to this norm then, you have not broken any written law or rule and is not subject to any sanctions or punishment.

I did encounter a Thurgist that you so described above and it would have been difficult if i had been using a low level wizard. Fortunately for me, I had my Knight pyromancer in the arena. At first, I used a wand for the tower she put up but she just used another. So, I ignored her tower and spirit armor; bladed myself, put a gargantuan on Efreet and attacked. I got a critical and that was the end of her. Never lost against a thurgist anyways, so doesn't matter if they cheat or not. I'll get them.

Back on point now. It seems to me that because KI does not say that you cannot do this or you cannot do that, then it is right for you to do whatever, once it is not against KI rules. This is a flimsy excuse. We all know what is right and wrong. You can't have rules for everything: "throw him in jail because he didn't clean his room, lock him up because he was starring at me, charge him because he didn't put his hand over his mouth when he coughed". Someone shouldn't have to tell you to clean your room, or not to stare or to put your hand over your mouth. Your own moral values should let you know that these things are not accepted behavior even though there are no written rules or law that says they are.

Therefore, the onus will be on KI-since people cannot be trusted to do the right thing- to investigate those egregious "strategies" that are not "legally wrong (in wiz101) and make them an established offense.

Since we NEED someone to tell us that it is wrong to chain stun, it is wrong to SPAM towers and wild bolt, then fine. KI jump in and make it an established rule!

It is very sad that we need rules to do the right thing. what happen to our conscience?


Ok, I might agree with chain stunning as cheating in PvP, yes. Sorry, but earthquake is only supposed to remove charms, not every possible thing! While a stun is acceptable, hence KI put in 4 stun shields after a stun, it is cheating, to stun, quake, stun or lord/giant, quake and stun! Sorry, but to not even give your opponent a single chance to cast a spell, because KI has not fixed the problem yet, that is cheating!

However, KI claims that they have fixed WildBolt! They made the change and upset all the storm players! So, if storm wants to spam WildBolt on your hide, I feel they have every right! after all, nobody would complain if you casted say fire elf all the time, or would they? I am sure they would, because if you are fire, they can't shield against you!

Which also leads me to my point of spam shielding! You are going to have a problem with defense? So a shield is ok, but not multiple? Did you know, you can get fire elf at the bazaar for less than 100 gold? one fire elf may cost you 2 pips, but it will get rid of 4 shields! So, who cares if they shield, that is part of the game. Be better and be prepared!

As far as dispel is concerned, once again, it is part of the game. However, I must say this! It is unfair to the person going second, because cloak does not help at all. Cloak needs to be fixed and instead of a symbol with a ? it should not show the enemy anything at all, be completely invisible to them. Be Cloaked! Not, visible with a ?... That way, nobody will know if you casted, shield, dispel, feint, your enemy will have no idea! Also, Dispel Life, Myth, Death, and Balance should all be sold at the Library and enchanted dispels should be sold at the bazaar, since you can find Ice, Fire, and Storm Dispels there. What is fair for one school, should be fair to all schools!

It is not that hard to determine what is fair and what is cheating, if you have any morals or virtues, unfortunately, in this day in age, people don't!

Everyone is out for themselves and will stab anyone in the back to get what they want. This world is full of greed, envy, and vindictive people. So, I would not hold my breath hoping people on this game would have a code of honor or think that there is cheating! Of course they will say that it is impossible to cheat, because they are corrupt and don't want to admit to their own shortcomings!

Mastermind
Jun 13, 2009
332
Sad, sad, sad state of affairs Mordikay and Darthjt: very sad. First of all, no one has the right to say another player is not good enough to win in the arena. It is contemptible and despicable. And you must desist. Loosing a match does not make you a lousy player. In case you didn’t know the developer of wizard 101 duel a wizard 101 player and was defeated by that player. The very person who made the game got defeated!

Furthermore you seem to think that cheating is not a strategy lol. Cheating is a strategy. Why would you cheat if it’s not gonna help you to win.

So your arguments are that because of my own shortcomings I have decided to call people cheaters. Ok. Let me see.

According to Mordikay, “Everyone has the same options available to them with gear and spells”. That is so true. Since you do not abide by my unwritten code of conduct or whatever, let us abide by yours. So, here we go. Everybody has the same option available to them so if they use those things then they CANNOT be accused of cheating.

So let me ask you this; why was wild bolt changed? Why did they put stun shield on you once you are stunned? Why are people asking that earthquake NOT remove stun shields?

You seem to hide behind the guise of strategy and say it’s not cheating; its strategy and people should find a way to defend against it. Fine by me. Let us all stop complaining about things that are going on in PVP and find ways to overcome whatever “strategies” other players employ in the arena.

The spamming of wild bolt in the arena was a strategy that diviners used to win duels. According to your point of view, they were not cheating. So, why were they accused of cheating and then wild bolt was turned into a joke? That was their strategy and to steal a quote from Darthjt, they “simply used what was available to them… they outplayed you and had a much better strategy.” But because of other players “short comings,” they got their spell ruined.

Same thing goes for chain stunning. That was someone’s strategy to win in PVP but obviously no one could guard against that and now we have stun shields being activated once a person is stunned. These players where not cheating, if I follow your arguments and logic. They simply had a good strategy. They used the spells that were available to them in a way that allowed them to win most if not all of the time. So, why did anyone complain about that?

Why are henchmen not allowed in PVP? No one is barred from buying henchmen, so why can’t we have those in PVP? Would it be cheating if I used a henchman to assist me in PVP? According to your arguments, it wouldn’t be because everyone is allowed to buy henchmen.

Mordikay said that the biggest flaw in PVP is who goes first lol. Seriously? You are the same one who says that who goes first is a random thing so how can you now say that it is the biggest flaw and it needs to be fixed? What is KI suppose to do about that? Someone will HAVE to go first; there is no way around that. You are so tough; this shouldn’t be a problem for you.

So let us all stop the complaining then, since no one is cheating. Professor Falmea, please put back wild bolt to its original form and remove the stun shields because no one can cheat in PVP, it is strategy and players should find ways to guard against it.

Let’s all jump into the arena and use the options available to us, plan strategy and win. After all “everyone have the same options available to them with gears and spells.”

Let us be able to put gargantuan on vampire, wraith and Scarecow, let it be so that “X” spells now add the boost per pip in stead of in addition to the hit damage (instead of judgment doing 100 per pip + 225 (gargantuan) let it be 325 per pip). This definitely wound not be cheating because we all can access these spells. Sounds logical right?

Defender
Feb 11, 2010
105
NicoUzumaki wrote:
Sad, sad, sad state of affairs Mordikay and Darthjt: very sad. First of all, no one has the right to say another player is not good enough to win in the arena. It is contemptible and despicable. And you must desist. Loosing a match does not make you a lousy player. In case you didn’t know the developer of wizard 101 duel a wizard 101 player and was defeated by that player. The very person who made the game got defeated!

Furthermore you seem to think that cheating is not a strategy lol. Cheating is a strategy. Why would you cheat if it’s not gonna help you to win.

So your arguments are that because of my own shortcomings I have decided to call people cheaters. Ok. Let me see.

According to Mordikay, “Everyone has the same options available to them with gear and spells”. That is so true. Since you do not abide by my unwritten code of conduct or whatever, let us abide by yours. So, here we go. Everybody has the same option available to them so if they use those things then they CANNOT be accused of cheating.

So let me ask you this; why was wild bolt changed? Why did they put stun shield on you once you are stunned? Why are people asking that earthquake NOT remove stun shields?

You seem to hide behind the guise of strategy and say it’s not cheating; its strategy and people should find a way to defend against it. Fine by me. Let us all stop complaining about things that are going on in PVP and find ways to overcome whatever “strategies” other players employ in the arena.

The spamming of wild bolt in the arena was a strategy that diviners used to win duels. According to your point of view, they were not cheating. So, why were they accused of cheating and then wild bolt was turned into a joke? That was their strategy and to steal a quote from Darthjt, they “simply used what was available to them… they outplayed you and had a much better strategy.” But because of other players “short comings,” they got their spell ruined.

Same thing goes for chain stunning. That was someone’s strategy to win in PVP but obviously no one could guard against that and now we have stun shields being activated once a person is stunned. These players where not cheating, if I follow your arguments and logic. They simply had a good strategy. They used the spells that were available to them in a way that allowed them to win most if not all of the time. So, why did anyone complain about that?

Why are henchmen not allowed in PVP? No one is barred from buying henchmen, so why can’t we have those in PVP? Would it be cheating if I used a henchman to assist me in PVP? According to your arguments, it wouldn’t be because everyone is allowed to buy henchmen.

Mordikay said that the biggest flaw in PVP is who goes first lol. Seriously? You are the same one who says that who goes first is a random thing so how can you now say that it is the biggest flaw and it needs to be fixed? What is KI suppose to do about that? Someone will HAVE to go first; there is no way around that. You are so tough; this shouldn’t be a problem for you.

So let us all stop the complaining then, since no one is cheating. Professor Falmea, please put back wild bolt to its original form and remove the stun shields because no one can cheat in PVP, it is strategy and players should find ways to guard against it.

Let’s all jump into the arena and use the options available to us, plan strategy and win. After all “everyone have the same options available to them with gears and spells.”

Let us be able to put gargantuan on vampire, wraith and Scarecow, let it be so that “X” spells now add the boost per pip in stead of in addition to the hit damage (instead of judgment doing 100 per pip + 225 (gargantuan) let it be 325 per pip). This definitely wound not be cheating because we all can access these spells. Sounds logical right?

Cheating can be a strategy you just can't cheat in wizard101 is what i'm saying.

And let me explain why wild bolt was changed it's actually very simple and has nothing to do with cheating. It's called balancing a thing that is done in every mmo and you seem to have it confused with cheating. Wild bolt was changing because of the major accuracy changes celestia expansion gave and if not changed basicly allowed storm players to effectively hit for 1600+ unshielded dmg every turn or every other turn making it major unbalanced both in pve and pvp.

As for earthquake it's a balance issue aswell. I don't know if it was intentional or not to have earthquake remove stun shields or not. Personally it doesn't affect me much as i only do 1vs1 atm but i can imagen it might be annoying to those that do the other brackets. Then again it takes a good deal to setup and communication between the players in a team to have the exact right amount of pips to stun, earthquake and stun again and i'm sure if it's too imbalanced it will be fixed over time. Again not cheating but a balance issue. You need to learn the difference!

And my comments about your short commings seem perfectly valid to me and i'm just taking it from what you wrote yourself and personally i don't care if you call it despicable or whatever since it's just drawing from the fact you wrote. You write up examples upon examples *pant*...soo many of you you can't beat a certain strategy, you list you rank and use that you have many pve wizards as an example. This tells me it's your shortcommings because you can't beat those players using said stratety and chose to come here to complain about it when myself and other can easy see ways to combat these strategies. Also the fact that you consider wild bolt worthless along with not knowing the spells of minions or other schools. The fact that you thinkn pve matters in skill when it's so easy you can do the hardest bosses in the game in your sleep and the ai engine offers no challange at all compared to fighting a player. I'm sure i could list more examples but i'll let these speak for themself about my comments on this subject.

And yes the biggest issue with pvp is the turn system and who goes first. A good pvp player will almost never lose when going first. Personally i have yet to lose a single match on my fire when going first. And i have made post before on this subject incluging a a 2 page long post about pvp where this is included as the main problem. I don't post that much on things that needs to be discussed in length that much on these forums anymore due to the fully moderated and that it takes so long to get posted. Also the fact that the devs are posting and probably reading more post on central then here. There are multiple example of how to fix the turn system like limit the pip usage first turns of the person going first, make the turns switch every 5th round ect ect. Your lack of history and knowledge on this matter and the use of the word lol here doesn't really help your case.

And there is no need to post rediculess options with gargantuan working per pip on x spells. As for health drain spells there is a reason for that aswell and again it's an issue of balance...you really need to learn this word.

Your examples that we all have acces to these spells to make my statement that everyone has the same options avalible to them is faulty as of course it depends on what school you are. If you complain about death (which again tells me you lack of knowledge about pvp) is it my fault you picked death school or any other schools for that matter if you don't like it? No!

Everyone has the same option avalible to them. Don't come and complain and call it cheating if you don't like your school, can't make a good strategy, don't know how to spend your training points, build a deck, make a sideboard to strengthen you deck ect ect.

Ps. Balancing=/= cheating.

Defender
Feb 11, 2010
105
Ohh in case my long reply gets in i forgot to answer why they added the stun shields and why it has nothing to do with earthquake.

It was because people made teams of 3 or 4 storm players in 3vs3 and 4vs4 and tried to win on only casting storm lord round after round making it impossible to survive unless you had 4x storm shields up on each of the defending players which is almost an impossibility.

So yes it has nothing to do with earthquake and the reason for stun shields is by now an old issue from pre CL pvp with storm wizard stacking.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
NicoUzumaki wrote:
Sad, sad, sad state of affairs Mordikay and Darthjt: very sad. First of all, no one has the right to say another player is not good enough to win in the arena. It is contemptible and despicable. And you must desist. Loosing a match does not make you a lousy player. In case you didn’t know the developer of wizard 101 duel a wizard 101 player and was defeated by that player. The very person who made the game got defeated!

Furthermore you seem to think that cheating is not a strategy lol. Cheating is a strategy. Why would you cheat if it’s not gonna help you to win.

So your arguments are that because of my own shortcomings I have decided to call people cheaters. Ok. Let me see.

According to Mordikay, “Everyone has the same options available to them with gear and spells”. That is so true. Since you do not abide by my unwritten code of conduct or whatever, let us abide by yours. So, here we go. Everybody has the same option available to them so if they use those things then they CANNOT be accused of cheating.

So let me ask you this; why was wild bolt changed? Why did they put stun shield on you once you are stunned? Why are people asking that earthquake NOT remove stun shields?

You seem to hide behind the guise of strategy and say it’s not cheating; its strategy and people should find a way to defend against it. Fine by me. Let us all stop complaining about things that are going on in PVP and find ways to overcome whatever “strategies” other players employ in the arena.

The spamming of wild bolt in the arena was a strategy that diviners used to win duels. According to your point of view, they were not cheating. So, why were they accused of cheating and then wild bolt was turned into a joke? That was their strategy and to steal a quote from Darthjt, they “simply used what was available to them… they outplayed you and had a much better strategy.” But because of other players “short comings,” they got their spell ruined.

Same thing goes for chain stunning. That was someone’s strategy to win in PVP but obviously no one could guard against that and now we have stun shields being activated once a person is stunned. These players where not cheating, if I follow your arguments and logic. They simply had a good strategy. They used the spells that were available to them in a way that allowed them to win most if not all of the time. So, why did anyone complain about that?

Why are henchmen not allowed in PVP? No one is barred from buying henchmen, so why can’t we have those in PVP? Would it be cheating if I used a henchman to assist me in PVP? According to your arguments, it wouldn’t be because everyone is allowed to buy henchmen.

Mordikay said that the biggest flaw in PVP is who goes first lol. Seriously? You are the same one who says that who goes first is a random thing so how can you now say that it is the biggest flaw and it needs to be fixed? What is KI suppose to do about that? Someone will HAVE to go first; there is no way around that. You are so tough; this shouldn’t be a problem for you.

So let us all stop the complaining then, since no one is cheating. Professor Falmea, please put back wild bolt to its original form and remove the stun shields because no one can cheat in PVP, it is strategy and players should find ways to guard against it.

Let’s all jump into the arena and use the options available to us, plan strategy and win. After all “everyone have the same options available to them with gears and spells.”

Let us be able to put gargantuan on vampire, wraith and Scarecow, let it be so that “X” spells now add the boost per pip in stead of in addition to the hit damage (instead of judgment doing 100 per pip + 225 (gargantuan) let it be 325 per pip). This definitely wound not be cheating because we all can access these spells. Sounds logical right?


Slow down there pilgrim! First off, you need to reread my post! I don't think you grasped anything I said!

I did say there was cheating in this game and I agreed with you on that! Yes, Chain Stunning is most certainly is cheating!

Then you called wildbolt the "joke it is now". I am referring to now. If people want to mass wildbolt now, with the new wildbolt, let them do it! Wildbolt was changed due to all the complaints, so storm has the right to mass New wildbolt without being called a cheater for it!

You read one or two sentences you don't like and you go rampant? Those sentences were for Mordikay, since he attacked you and actually had no offense or defense to his theory. He just rants thinking he is all high and mighty. Well, He as most people are, is wrong.

You, although, are wrong in some areas! There is nothing wrong with shields, sorry, but the best offense is a great defense. You need to learn this, it is a wise mans proverb! However, in this game, a simple spell like fire elf, can remove 4 towershields! So, don't sweat the small stuff!

Again see my view on storms new wild bolt and them using it! They have now earned the right, since all the complainers have it changed to it's form now!

Cloak, is still a problem, since it is not invisible to your opponent.
I will agree, who goes first is a problem in PVP and I think each and every round should be entirely random! That would completely solve that dilemna!

So please, read each post carefully and thoroughly before you jump the gun and go out on an all out rampage, I hate taking the dog out to pasture!

Hero
Jan 24, 2010
705
Wizards,

I DON'T like the way this discussion is going. The tone in the conversation remains accusatory and disrespectful. Come on, lay off each other.

I did not make myself clear in my original post, and would like to clarify.

The crux of the problem here is that one person's moral and ethical code and, therefore, definition of cheating, is irrelevant up to the point that a consensus among PvP players forces KI to adapt the rules of the game.

If I may make a suggestion, why don't you focus this discussion on points upon which you mutually agree. Come to a joint definition of cheating strategies. Post a fresh message to the forum, and invite others to join the discussion. I'm sure there is an active discussion of this topic on Wizard101 Central as well. Perhaps take a look there and get a feel for the opinions of players who are talking there, and maybe join in the conversation. Perhaps with a well-rounded understanding of the larger community conversation, you can come to some agreement, and work toward a solution to the problem.

Here are my examples of cheating strategies in PvP.

1) Wild bolting over and over in the first 3 rounds of battle. (KI already fixed that one. However, I learned to avoid losing by stacking my treasures with tower shields and using them while I built up for attacks.

2) Chain stunning. (KI already fixed that one, but PvPers, always clever!, found an innovation in the use of Earthquake to remove stun shields. I'll bet KI is working on this as I type.)

3) Entering ranked PvP to rank down.

4) Using a high level minion in 1v1. IMHO, this makes the match 1v2.

5) Entering ranked PvP with no strategy other than to heal repeatedly. (However, having encountered this non-strategy, I now know to stack my deck with life dispels and infection :)

Notice that except for the first 2 items on my list, they are subjective, moral and ethical definitions of cheating. While I hope others agree with me, I don't expect them to do so if my issues are based in personal strategy deficiencies. I do wish, however, that I will not be heavily, repeatedly, and sharply criticized. Rather, I would prefer for my fellow wizards to cheerfully share with me better strategies than my own.

For what it's worth, I think you have all brought up valid points, but they are obscured by anger.

Iridian Shadowweaver, Theurgist