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My Thoughts on PvP

2
AuthorMessage
Mastermind
Sep 30, 2009
391
Lion359 wrote:
Heavyprints and Derhund,

It's an absolute pleasure to see that you have decided to
post on the W101 main site. I firmly believe that since
the Professor has stated that this site's posting is
reviewed and used in their meetings, your input is something
that is seriously needed.

Let me state one item up front, I have recently quit the game
completely (100%). I had played the game since very early 2010,
and have multiple Warlords at different levels, so I do understand
the game. I would not be posting now, but I was asked by my
younger brother to reply to this posting, and this will be
my one and only post on his behalf.

If anyone wants to reply to me, please address the Pve/PvP community,
and not me directly. After I make this posting, I will not be back on
this board or any other W101 board, at all.

I do feel that being away from the game, has given me a certain perspicacity, in altering my point of view. My problem is and will always be that I have a flaw with being ineffable.

To start with, I would like to make a few statements about some of
the posters that you will be engaged with.

As you already know, Darthjt likes to be confrontational. He does know the
Game from his point of view. The problem is, that point of view has no
relevance to the average player in the game. His belief seems
to be, if I argue my point hard enough, you will go away and no longer post.
If you don’t stop, then at times he has gotten personal, a grave mistake in
his otherwise well fact/based posting.
The serious flaw that generates a is single point of view in the postings, and
that doesn’t help the game at all.
Plus you will find that any reference to Central’s Tournaments is often
attacked by DJT. Understandable, as the rules in most of these
Tournaments are not the same as W101 PVP’s. This in itself
is an issue when trying to compare the two.

Golden Dragon18 (and Bessler) both have a most open mind, and understand
the game very well. Bessler and GD18’s input should carry a very heavy weight when input is given.

Queen (QBB), enjoys the game, and wants a safe environment for her children. She always wants PVE to grow, with or without PVP, since she has little interest in PVP. Understandable, and I have no issue with this.

TravisAK, someone who knows the game, and understands it very well. Again, this Individuals input should carry considerable weight, once you have gotten past his rough outer edge.

Gtarahannon, Gtar has not posted lately, and if this trend continues, it would be a great loss for the W101 community. Gtar has solid knowledge and has a very realistic point of view of the game. His frustration has shown, as he can see what many other are unable too.

There is a host of other that will have valued input also, like Bionaknight, CorbinW, Aritako, TheDarkestMask, Megan and many others.

I only have few things to say, and please don’t respond to the W101 community until you have researched what I state. No emotional replies are warranted or needed, at this critical point in the growth of the games life.

First, PVE is not subservient to PVP in anyway, and anyone that looks at the details and History of the game will finally note this is true. In fact, if anyone looks at the history of the game, they will clearly see that PVE has been foremost in the minds of KI.
Only after PVE’s spells have been setup, then PVP complaints are looked at.

It seems to me that PVE players want the entire cake, but please allow the PVP community to have one small Slice of the cake, no matter how small
( we are close to starving as it is now).

So “YES” PVP needs to be tested more in the Test Realm to control these errors for sure.
Nothing should make it to the Live realm and then have to be changed.

Second, PVP whiners get what they want, they ruin PVE according to many a post. This is completely untrue, and these types of comments should be ignored by KI and in any post. This is one comment that stands out, and is regurgitated over and over in post after post. It is not true, and is a complete falsehood when you look at what KI has really done. Judgement, Heckhound, Shatter and I can name many more that have
been whined about over and over, but KI never changed one.
Wild bolt was changed because it became what it was not suppose to be.
Guardian Spirit was changed, and KI has not responded as to why, but anyone knows that KI did it for a solid reason.
It had nothing to do with any PVP player, as they have never changed a spell unless it caused a real issue in the game. Please, think about this in detail, even review the history of the game. This is a fact, not speculation on my part.

Third, Mismatch Team Levels, yes this is a problem that KI is aware of and hopefully it will be fixed in the next release. The fix may not be what we want, but hopefully it will limit this to some degree.

Fourth, Ice resist, with the crafted gear is hard to beat, I can agree with that. I personally have found that a good Ice, if stuck second, can be beat. If they are first, then it becomes a different matter.
I agree, there must be some limit on the amount of resist, whether it be 75% or 70%, there needs to be a limit, to even out the average game play.

Note: What has become a real concern for me is this, add in the Wand with Guardian Spirit to an Ice with the Life Amulet. Now try to beat that Ice, you have a compounded factor here, a task that will be just as hard if not harder than trying to put down a Life. It takes 9 TP to
learn Doom and Gloom, not an option for most. If you use TC, and you don’t have a perfect setup, you have now an insurmountable issue. Again, KI looking at the PVE community and not looking at the effect it will have on PVP. Showing again, that PVP players are the real second class group in this game.

Last, the Turn System in PVP, yes this is the same flaw as many other games, but I agree, KI could and does need to adjust this. As it is now, I cannot remember the last time I lost being first, to a Fire, Life or Myth. Whether I was on my Ice, Myth or Balance at level 70 or above.

Gtafreak101, you have hit the very point of the whole issue, yes heavyprints can work around the issue, as Derhund and Darthjt, but the average player cannot……….. … . . . . .

PS, Gweedoboy, the next new worlds are Polaris (the Ice world) and then Mirage.

Kev, if you read this, I have completed the task at hand, before I leave, as requested.

Best of luck posting on these boards, and to anyone, don’t back off if you really believe in what you are posting. It could help the game more than you know.

I wish I could write more details or think better, but my brain is DOA, the AP tests have done me in.

Best of luck in the spiral,
Joe. (the specter of Joseph LionHunter).
well i kinda have to disagree on the pvp almost starving but thx for the order of the next 2 worlds. i knew about the worlds but didnt know the order XD

Survivor
Aug 13, 2009
13
darthjt's point that PvE should not be subservient to PvP is not invalid, but they are an obvious attempt at polarization on the topic. I have chosen not to reply, not because I've given up on the topic, but because there's no point in having a discussion with someone who is committed to misunderstanding you.

These points became obvious in the first post when, rather than address the issues, darthjt chose to personally attack me.

For those of you who are actually interested in the PvP topic at hand, and not in protecting a vested interest at the expense of other players, here's some information about me that seems to have been misrepresented:

I am a tournament duelist, former Tournament Master for central. I have multiple tournament wins. The important thing to note here, and what has been misunderstood, is that being a tournament duelist doesn't mean you don't play ranked or have any clue what's going on there.

I've ranked my Fire wizard so high in 1v1 that I stopped getting matches regularly enough to even play him (1875 rank was where I got bored). I've made warlord with every school in the spiral at various levels, and I currently play ranked matches on a mid-level player for at least an hour or so 4-5 days a week in addition to the occasional top-level ranked 1v1 or tournament match.

I am active in the current Ranked PvP environment. I am not complaining because I can't win, lol. I bring up these points mainly because I have a young son who likes to PvP, and learning to see the environment from his perspective has shown me that the broken dynamics I am able to cope with can completely sap the fun out of it for the kids this game is meant to entertain. People should step into the arena and expect a fair match, not to be exploited by loopholes. That's my interest in posting here.

Ice's resist is an issue. It is out of balance with the other classes, in that it gives a huge advantage without enough drawback for the PvP environment. I did not suggest how this should be fixed, or that it should affect PvE in anyway. I only pointed out that it is a problem. It is. Anyone who has had to fight and Ice wizard with near immunity and a Life amulet knows this.

This has become a pattern with the Ice class, where every time a new set of PvE gear is released, they get such huge advantages that even some Ice players refuse to wear them in PvP because it feels like cheating. WaterWorks gear leveled the playing field, but the last two updates have managed to catapult Ice into a realm of gear advantage that is problematic again. This pattern should be addressed in some way, in my opinion.

Survivor
Apr 01, 2009
36
Lion359 wrote:
Heavyprints and Derhund,

It's an absolute pleasure to see that you have decided to
post on the W101 main site. I firmly believe that since
the Professor has stated that this site's posting is
reviewed and used in their meetings, your input is something
that is seriously needed.
...
“YES” PVP needs to be tested more in the Test Realm to control these errors for sure. Nothing should make it to the Live realm and then have to be changed.
...
Mismatch Team Levels, yes this is a problem that KI is aware of and hopefully it will be fixed in the next release. The fix may not be what we want, but hopefully it will limit this to some degree.
...
Ice resist, with the crafted gear is hard to beat, I can agree with that. I personally have found that a good Ice, if stuck second, can be beat. If they are first, then it becomes a different matter.
I agree, there must be some limit on the amount of resist, whether it be 75% or 70%, there needs to be a limit, to even out the average game play.

Note: What has become a real concern for me is this, add in the Wand with Guardian Spirit to an Ice with the Life Amulet.
...
Last, the Turn System in PVP, yes this is the same flaw as many other games, but I agree, KI could and does need to adjust this. As it is now, I cannot remember the last time I lost being first, to a Fire, Life or Myth. Whether I was on my Ice, Myth or Balance at level 70 or above.

Gtafreak101, you have hit the very point of the whole issue, yes heavyprints can work around the issue, as Derhund and Darthjt, but the average player cannot.
...

TY for your warm welcome, even as you re-exit the game. It's a shame TBH, that long timers are leaving. I'm certainly hanging on by my fingernails, only occasionally looking at the various forums and occasionally taking my main wizard out to see the latest updates.

KI has a real shot here to energize a lot of the old-time fan base and to really improve the "end-game" that entertains the old-time fan base. When you're quickly done with grinding the next level max, when you tire of farming the last "big boss" for the "uber" drop, everyone naturally moves to PvP. If KI fixes these known issues with 1v1 and team PvP, KI will see a renewal of the old-timers instead of a steady erosion.

Mastermind
Sep 30, 2009
391
darthjt wrote:
gweedoboy wrote:

yes i do agree darth but one thing in my mind has troubled me. what about a good ice player(like you for instance you did say you had 2 ice wizards).


That is not exactly a fair question Gweedoboy, because even though I may be able to fight my Ice Wizard, I would also know exactly what each was casting and when they were casting it, so it would not exactly be fair, now would it?

I have seen some very good Ice Warlords & OverLords get defeated recently, by Fire & Storm, so it is quite possible.

As for my Ice, well, that would not be a fair comparison either, as most have enough problems with my Death & Storm wizards, let alone my Fire, Myth, Life, and Ice.

I did not state my Balance wizard, because I am currently leveling her up after I deleted my other 2 Balance Wizards. Although, I found that my Balance had the easiest time in the Arena, he was a beast. Now that I have restarted Balance, she is even more powerful than he was, considering that I have better spell selection, better gear, better pets, etc.

I know this does not answer your question, but I am trying to be fair and honest to your questions.
well im no super pro quoter but i guess thats good enough for me.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
@HeavyPrints,

I was not attacking you personally, sorry if you took it that way, I was disagreeing with your post and showing where the exact errors of your statements were.

I am not saying PVP is perfect and there are not issues that need to be fixed or addressed.

I do agree that the matching system & point system needs a serious overhaul, but at the same time, if it is fixed, and if it causes serious wait times, players will complain about that too.

Nothing is an easy fix.

As far as Ice goes, my point was not that Ice is not OP when it comes to resistance, but that they can be defeated, by any school, even storm and fire. This is not an opinion, it is a fact and one that is proven everyday in PVP. Ice, even with the resistance, still loses in the Arena.

Does the resistance need to be lowered? Yes, to be fair, it does. However, if you take, you have to give, so giving Ice some Accuracy to be on Par with Fire & Storm at 92% would be fair, and a couple of points to damage boost would not hurt either, if resistance is lowered. Have to be fair, that is the point, right?

I believe all parties have the right to speak their mind and all parties have the right to disagree, but no party should have total say in what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to the game.

This is my main point.

Survivor
Aug 13, 2009
13
darthjt - That someone can be killed with an unbalanced piece of gear is not an effective argument for that gear being unbalanced. In fact, you seem to agree that it is unbalanced. This is what OP means, over powered, not invincible. It creates a large advantage for a specific player or class.

As to how the resist spike should be addressed, I'm open to suggestions, I did not suggest any myself. Your ideas seem as good as any. It seems like this could be easily fixed if the extreme school-specific resist were traded out for reasonable amounts of extra critical block and attack boost.

I suggest a little more crit block, because this is a stat we generally get from wands right now. If Ice were to get slightly more general block from their gear, they would have plenty of block to be able to discard the massive block wands and swap to Sidhe Staff. This would give them much better power pips and near-perfect accuracy. In addition to a little more attack boost, I think this sounds like a recipe for a more offensive Ice setup that could be a load of fun to play.

The wand accuracy is "general accuracy" for all schools, which could also facilitate more mastery amulet options for the Ice class, making it easier for them to use, for instance, a Myth amulet. Quake is a good answer to blade stacking, and if Ice's resist were to be lowered, it would be helpful in keeping survivability very high for Wizard101's "tank" class.

Again, just a suggestion. I really don't care how it's fixed, only that it is fixed.

My problem with the gear is not that it gives near immunity to certain schools, it's that the gear does so with a generous dollop of general resist also. Any other school must lose general resist if they hope to become near-immune to anyone else, and this is a good thing, because it keeps the setups from being actually viable in the PvP environment.

Survivor
Jun 20, 2010
10
There is a pretty easy fix for the 'turns' issue... just have both spells execute simultaneously. A sequence could be worked out where spells that directly conflict, like a shield.v.hitter, are prioritized based on highest cost in pips or a random number. The added benefit would be to increase the guesswork in reading your opponents intentions, and then every round would be a dramatic interaction of these insightful casts.

Geographer
Aug 28, 2010
957
heavyprints,

I see the PvP team mismatch is under a fix already, so I won't go there at all.

What I did want to bring up was two items, Ice Resist and the Turn system.

Ice resist, you stated that Ice can have a resist of around 50%, and I think to Fire up to 75% normally and Storm 65% normally.
When the resist to Fire and Storm is up this high, the across the board resist is dropped down to around 45%.
As I started to think about this, my Myth has 45% across the board.
My Death has 45% across the board, and both have fairly decent health.
I took a look at my Pips, accuracy and Damage gear boost on both, plus my Balance (which is at 3950 health and 42% resist across the board), and realized that Ice is not really overall that much better off. Why, because they can't blade up against Storm, Death, Life, Balance or Myth. Storm can now shatter all blades. Most Death, Life and Balance are holding a Myth amulet in hand. Add to that, I have seen many Ice go down when against a Life, Myth or Balance. I think that everyone is using Infallible for the -15% resist, plus on all larger hits are pushing another 20%, bring down the resist to close to 40%. That is countered by their Gear boost of 65% almost completely, and is covered once it hits a boost of 70%.

Second item is the turn system, and this generates a conflict with me. I have really starting to wonder if it's really a good idea, the way it is.
Yes, one person will have the edge, but if you eliminated the FTA how much longer would the matches last. The FTA does seem to average out over time, giving you the option of going 1st 50% of the time.
As I have started to think about this over time, I have to start wondering if maybe having the FTA may really be good for the game.

Just some passing thoughts,
Joe.

2