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minions in pvp - maybe you'll understand this

2
AuthorMessage
Hero
Nov 22, 2010
747
EvilDroid2 wrote:
Yes I understand your viewpoint, but I simply dont agree that it is just a matter of having "an additional player" on someones side. Minions especially in ranked add more challenge and more strategy to the game.


IF all schools got their minion at the same level

and

IF all schools got minions that are equal

then

I could agree with you.

However you know good and well that some schools get minions that are worthless and some get exceptionally good minions. That some schools get their minions early while players are low level and some don't get them until the players are considerably higher in level.

Minions were NOT designed to be used in Ranked PVP. They were designed for in game play.

They don't add another dimension of stragegy to the game, either. What they do is turn a match that is 1 against 1 into a match that is 2 against 1.

I'm guessing YOU do use minions. I'll admit to using them to. And I'll also state, whether you want to admit to it or not, that as soon as my minion is in play, I breath a sigh of relief, KNOWING that the match just got about 75% easier for me and that the poor guy on the other side is now going to be struggling to beat 2 people instead of one.

The ONLY reason anyone here wants minions to stay in pvp is because they personally use them and KNOW that it's a whole lot harder to win without them - when they have to face another player alone instead of with a companion.

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
EvilDroid2 wrote:
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
travisAk wrote:

To anyone having problems formulating a strategy to beat a simple school minion in pvp


let's try this again.

It has nothing to do with beating the minion. It has to do with the fact that the minion adds an additional person to the other side. And even if you can take the minion out in one turn, you still shouldn't have to spend that turn on an attack on the minion.

A minion in the game gives the side that cast it an extra person no matter how weak or strong it is.

And that gives them extra moves EVERY TURN.

If minions are going to be allowed, then let's keep it fair and every time someone casts a minion on their side, let's load a minion of the opposite school on the other side. AT the same rank and health as the one that was cast.



Ah lets try this again, Minions, whether you like them or not, are part of the game and should stay in the game, IMO. Even if they add an extra person as you say, it is still part of the strategy and game and should be kept in the pvp arena. Is it frustrating, yes at times, is it fair, yes I believe so, can it be countered, yes. Now the only thing about minions that I feel is not fair is talos, which is the strongest minion out there and probably should have a level cap on it. As far as the school minons, they were designed to be an additional means to help your player. Yes I understand your viewpoint, but I simply dont agree that it is just a matter of having "an additional player" on someones side. Minions especially in ranked add more challenge and more strategy to the game. I place minions in the same category as treasure cards and your side deck. It is a strategy. I just simply dont agree with your arguement, as even treasure can be considered unfair. Is it fair for a level 5 to hit another level 5 with a Kraken?

Everyone has issues with pvp that they feel are not fair, but I dont agree with you on the minions and do not want KI to remove the useage of them in pvp. Yes, some changes are needed in the system, but those are on another post. We can remove everythingl; minions, treasures, and side decks usage but then I think pvp would turn into a version of tic-tac-toe, with no real challenge, because everyone has the same basic cards, same levels, same gear, etc...... just whoever places their X in the 2 right spots first wins the game. Seems like there would be no surprises, no real challenge. I like it when someone brings out a Talos, it means they have used 5 pips! and if I have saved my pips it mean I can now clobber them in 2 rounds with high hitting treasures, because during this time I have loaded them up with infections, saved my pips, and they have no pips and no way to heal effectively.
I agree with everything you have written here. Although I don't mind the critical system I think that strategy in pvp has gone down hill with the addition of the luck based system. We can't be sanctioning every aspect of pvp that doesn't correspond with our playing style because, like droid said,It will turn pvp into a mindless game of snakes and ladders without the snakes because a few people went down them lost the game and complained. Excellent post EVilDroid

Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
EvilDroid2 wrote:
Yes I understand your viewpoint, but I simply dont agree that it is just a matter of having "an additional player" on someones side. Minions especially in ranked add more challenge and more strategy to the game.


IF all schools got their minion at the same level

and

IF all schools got minions that are equal

then

I could agree with you.

However you know good and well that some schools get minions that are worthless and some get exceptionally good minions. That some schools get their minions early while players are low level and some don't get them until the players are considerably higher in level.

Minions were NOT designed to be used in Ranked PVP. They were designed for in game play.

They don't add another dimension of stragegy to the game, either. What they do is turn a match that is 1 against 1 into a match that is 2 against 1.

I'm guessing YOU do use minions. I'll admit to using them to. And I'll also state, whether you want to admit to it or not, that as soon as my minion is in play, I breath a sigh of relief, KNOWING that the match just got about 75% easier for me and that the poor guy on the other side is now going to be struggling to beat 2 people instead of one.

The ONLY reason anyone here wants minions to stay in pvp is because they personally use them and KNOW that it's a whole lot harder to win without them - when they have to face another player alone instead of with a companion.


I keep one, or occasionally 2 depending on my school, in my deck but it is by no means part of my strategy. I can go battle after battle after battle and never have that card show up. When I'm the guy on the other side of the arena and I see someone summon a minion, I generally think to myself... that poor guy just wasted pips, and then I punish him or occasionally counter with my own minion. If minions in 1v1 went away tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me personally... but it would bother a lot of players who use minions as part of their strategy. That, I think, would be indeed unfair.

Do you think that pets with may cast talents are fair?

Squire
Aug 04, 2009
554
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
EvilDroid2 wrote:
Yes I understand your viewpoint, but I simply dont agree that it is just a matter of having "an additional player" on someones side. Minions especially in ranked add more challenge and more strategy to the game.


IF all schools got their minion at the same level

and

IF all schools got minions that are equal

then

I could agree with you.

However you know good and well that some schools get minions that are worthless and some get exceptionally good minions. That some schools get their minions early while players are low level and some don't get them until the players are considerably higher in level.

Minions were NOT designed to be used in Ranked PVP. They were designed for in game play.

They don't add another dimension of stragegy to the game, either. What they do is turn a match that is 1 against 1 into a match that is 2 against 1.

I'm guessing YOU do use minions. I'll admit to using them to. And I'll also state, whether you want to admit to it or not, that as soon as my minion is in play, I breath a sigh of relief, KNOWING that the match just got about 75% easier for me and that the poor guy on the other side is now going to be struggling to beat 2 people instead of one.

The ONLY reason anyone here wants minions to stay in pvp is because they personally use them and KNOW that it's a whole lot harder to win without them - when they have to face another player alone instead of with a companion.


I have to disagree I never use my minion because it isn't good. It wastes a turn to summon. It is a waste of pips, and it can't be dealt with very easily. I have won countless PvPs because people waste their time trying to get a minion out. If people want to use minions they should be allowed to. If the player they are pvping against doesn't know how to handle minions then they have a won a Fair pvp. It is like any other arena match, if you shield and your opponent doesn't know how to get around shields you will win. If you heal right and your opponent doesn't know how to deal with a healing opponent then you will most likely win. Minions I see are the exact same way. In fact the only minion people should have problems with at all is talos, and he takes a good 5 pips to get out which is a considerable amount of time. Plus if your opponent is defeated you won't have to finish the minion if he/she loses even if their minion is in tact they will still lose.

Explorer
Jan 07, 2010
89
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
EvilDroid2 wrote:
Yes I understand your viewpoint, but I simply dont agree that it is just a matter of having "an additional player" on someones side. Minions especially in ranked add more challenge and more strategy to the game.


IF all schools got their minion at the same level

and

IF all schools got minions that are equal

then

I could agree with you.

However you know good and well that some schools get minions that are worthless and some get exceptionally good minions. That some schools get their minions early while players are low level and some don't get them until the players are considerably higher in level.

Minions were NOT designed to be used in Ranked PVP. They were designed for in game play.

They don't add another dimension of stragegy to the game, either. What they do is turn a match that is 1 against 1 into a match that is 2 against 1.

I'm guessing YOU do use minions. I'll admit to using them to. And I'll also state, whether you want to admit to it or not, that as soon as my minion is in play, I breath a sigh of relief, KNOWING that the match just got about 75% easier for me and that the poor guy on the other side is now going to be struggling to beat 2 people instead of one.

The ONLY reason anyone here wants minions to stay in pvp is because they personally use them and KNOW that it's a whole lot harder to win without them - when they have to face another player alone instead of with a companion.


First off, you know full well that all schools are not equal, so why should their minions be? As far as getting them at different points in the game, thats part of the different school traits, disavantages and advantages. Not everyone is gonna like their school minion, but the differences are what makes the game interesting. For example, many posters have expressed their hatred of the storm minion, but I, for one, love the storm minion, lol, heals himself and can heal the players as well. Does he hit much, no, but thats ok, cause I take him out to heal and be a distraction.

As far as for minions being designed for in game play, pvp is game play, and how do you know what they were designed for? Are you a KI developer?

Your only reasoning for getting rid of minions is because you believe they change the match into a 1v2 match and minions do not do that. You could say that, but only for the minions that actually hit. Some just taunt, others heal a lot, and yes others hit. Yes I do use minions I have a level 17 myth, who if minions were taken out of her deck would have all of bats,trolls and cyclops to hit with, which is not bad, but myth also has low health and the minion is part of that schools overall traits and the wizard loses other traits due to it.

As far as minion use goes, in pvp my myth does use her minion, my other schools dont, I keep one in deck and might bring it out if an opponent uses theirs, othewise its a waste of pip to use.

Maybe you think using minions makes game play easier, but I do not. First, unless its the basic myth minion, they take from 3 to 5 pips to cast. Second, if you play pvp at a higher rank you will soon realize that casting minions is a waste of pips and most will not use them. A warlord storm can wipe me out quick with high hitting attacks, so no I would not waste pips on a minion.

And, no the only reason to use a minion is not because it makes the match easier to win, that is YOUR opinion. Personally, I dont think minions help out a high ranking wizard in pvp at all, and for a low level to use a minion; well unless they use a low level minion they have to have a lot of pips, which again leaves them open for attacks, and not an easy way to win either, IMO.

Now for Talos, yes when he is used by low level wizards it does give them an advantage, and yes with talos I agree with you. Talos should have a level cap on him.

Just because I dont agree with you does not mean I use them in pvp. And for that matter, whether I use them or not is irrevelent and usage does not make my opinion any less valid than yours. My myth does yes, she is myth after all, but she only has the golem and the troll minions, both part of her school spells learned to this point. As for my other wizards: Ice does not use them, storm uses hers rarely, Fire no, Death no, life minion no, and balance no.

It is up to the wizard to use them or not, I like them being part of pvp and that's my opinion. If they remove minions from pvp and disallow myth to use them, then myth needs better hit spells for that level. Myths health and damage is low, others have higher hits and health at that point, so the minion evens it out for myth.

Ranked pvp is about the challenge and the uncertainty of what the opponent may do next. Change it too much and you make it predictable, boring aand far to easy to win at. That is my opinion.



Hero
Nov 22, 2010
747
gtarhannon wrote:

Do you think that pets with may cast talents are fair?


not really. no.

Right now, ranked PVP is pretty much all about who has the best gadgets, not who has the best skill.

Personally, I would LOVE to see KI strip everything off of anyone entering a ranked PVP match, leaving them in default clothing with just the deck of cards they had equipped - no hats, boots, robes, amulets, athames, rings, wands, pets.

AND then I would like to see all treasure cards blocked and no minions allowed.

Just players against players with the basic deck of cards - cards they only have because the character they are playing is high enough in level to EARN those cards.

Course that means that ranked would have to match people up based only on level, not level and rank, but some how I don't think that's too much of a problem.


Astrologist
Jun 04, 2010
1008
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
gtarhannon wrote:

Do you think that pets with may cast talents are fair?


not really. no.

Right now, ranked PVP is pretty much all about who has the best gadgets, not who has the best skill.

Personally, I would LOVE to see KI strip everything off of anyone entering a ranked PVP match, leaving them in default clothing with just the deck of cards they had equipped - no hats, boots, robes, amulets, athames, rings, wands, pets.

AND then I would like to see all treasure cards blocked and no minions allowed.

Just players against players with the basic deck of cards - cards they only have because the character they are playing is high enough in level to EARN those cards.

Course that means that ranked would have to match people up based only on level, not level and rank, but some how I don't think that's too much of a problem.



Honestly, I think I would enjoy a trained only ranked option. However, I think it needs to be limited to "school only" gear (no crown items, no arena gear, no global gear, and no pets) as the gear available at different levels is part of the balance of schools. You're right that level would need to be a much bigger factor, however, I think +/- 5 to 10 levels should be allowed based on rank. I also think that if it was trained only spells that minions should be allowed. Things like Talos wouldn't be a problem either because we're excluding treasure cards and at level 55, you should be able to deal effectively with Talos.

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
crystalwizard12345... wrote:
gtarhannon wrote:

Do you think that pets with may cast talents are fair?


not really. no.

Right now, ranked PVP is pretty much all about who has the best gadgets, not who has the best skill.

Personally, I would LOVE to see KI strip everything off of anyone entering a ranked PVP match, leaving them in default clothing with just the deck of cards they had equipped - no hats, boots, robes, amulets, athames, rings, wands, pets.

AND then I would like to see all treasure cards blocked and no minions allowed.

Just players against players with the basic deck of cards - cards they only have because the character they are playing is high enough in level to EARN those cards.

Course that means that ranked would have to match people up based only on level, not level and rank, but some how I don't think that's too much of a problem.



Now, sounds like a great idea, however, have you ever actually done the math on this equation? Do you think that a low level, such a between 5-25 could ever actually defeat the opponent? Without being the one with the final card in deck?

Delver
Feb 18, 2010
252
I'm sure you'll live Crystalwizard. It's not like these minions, even Talos, are like two real players are ganging up on you. Can you really not defeat a minion first, then go for the actual player? Are you really incapable of defeating a weak healthed minion? I doubt minions will be cleaned out from PvP, and if they do, you lose your minion too. If you level up different types of wizards, you can get their awesome minion too, but thanks to you, you won't be able to use them in PvP. Do you see the problem here?

Hero
Nov 22, 2010
747
kaleeraisen wrote:
I'm sure you'll live Crystalwizard. It's not like these minions, even Talos, are like two real players are ganging up on you.


That STILL isn't the point. The point is that with a minion on one side, that side gets an extra move every turn.

kaleeraisen wrote:
Can you really not defeat a minion first, then go for the actual player?


Again, not the point. The side without a minion should not HAVE to spend a turn defeating it in the first place and the point is that the side with the minion gets an extra move every turn.

In 1v1, that means one side gets to do 2 things while the other side gets to do 1 thing.
In 2v2, that means one side gets to do 3 things, while the other side gets to do 2 things.
In 3v3, that means one side gets to do 4 things, while the other side gets to do 3 things.

Get the actual point yet?

kaleeraisen wrote:
Are you really incapable of defeating a weak healthed minion?


Weak healthed? Death and Myth can cast minions with 700 health. For battles where the players are lower level, that's not exactly weak health. That's a whole lot more health than the computer enemies out on the game have that they would be facing if they were in PvE instead of PVP.

But that STILL isn't the real point. The real point is the EXTRA MOVE one side gets every turn.

kaleeraisen wrote:
I doubt minions will be cleaned out from PvP, and if they do, you lose your minion too. If you level up different types of wizards, you can get their awesome minion too, but thanks to you, you won't be able to use them in PvP. Do you see the problem here?


Not in the LEAST do I see the problem. I have no problem not using a minion. I can regularly rank up to warlord without one, though I usually drop back to commander to have a chance at somewhat evenly matched battles instead of staying there. How about you?

Armiger
May 10, 2010
2080
kaleeraisen wrote:
I'm sure you'll live Crystalwizard. It's not like these minions, even Talos, are like two real players are ganging up on you. Can you really not defeat a minion first, then go for the actual player? Are you really incapable of defeating a weak healthed minion? I doubt minions will be cleaned out from PvP, and if they do, you lose your minion too. If you level up different types of wizards, you can get their awesome minion too, but thanks to you, you won't be able to use them in PvP. Do you see the problem here?


Talos has 1000 health, did you know that? Now, to a low level wizard, between the levels of 5-21, defeating this minion and the player are not as easy as you think, try it sometime, if you are so wise...

You have a small deck, very little attack boost, no AOE attacks, except for sandstorm for Balance at level 16... Now, some say take out treasure cards, meaning this would disable Talos, however, this would also disable all AOE cards from anyone... Also, how much damage can you do with a small deck? More damage than the opponent can heal?

People want to give opinions and state things, but do they give their opinions and observations from every level? I think not and this is where most people get it wrong...

To any Grandmaster, Legend, and even most Magus, Minions are simple to defeat, however, when you are low level, even the most simple things can complicate an issue, especially, when the minions are overpowered for a wizard at such a low level!

Squire
Jan 05, 2010
548
darthjt wrote:
kaleeraisen wrote:
I'm sure you'll live Crystalwizard. It's not like these minions, even Talos, are like two real players are ganging up on you. Can you really not defeat a minion first, then go for the actual player? Are you really incapable of defeating a weak healthed minion? I doubt minions will be cleaned out from PvP, and if they do, you lose your minion too. If you level up different types of wizards, you can get their awesome minion too, but thanks to you, you won't be able to use them in PvP. Do you see the problem here?


Talos has 1000 health, did you know that? Now, to a low level wizard, between the levels of 5-21, defeating this minion and the player are not as easy as you think, try it sometime, if you are so wise...

You have a small deck, very little attack boost, no AOE attacks, except for sandstorm for Balance at level 16... Now, some say take out treasure cards, meaning this would disable Talos, however, this would also disable all AOE cards from anyone... Also, how much damage can you do with a small deck? More damage than the opponent can heal?

People want to give opinions and state things, but do they give their opinions and observations from every level? I think not and this is where most people get it wrong...

To any Grandmaster, Legend, and even most Magus, Minions are simple to defeat, however, when you are low level, even the most simple things can complicate an issue, especially, when the minions are overpowered for a wizard at such a low level!
Talos yes, simple school minions.... Darth snap out of it man. You have built quite the reputation but I believe your stance on minions being removed from pvp is not only shocking but also serves to discredit your opinions IMO with hard players. This claim is ridiculous and belongs in your shredder box beside "judgement is too hard" and "remove treasure cards". Sorry to be so harsh, someone had to do it.

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