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Mana Burn is Broken

AuthorMessage
Geographer
Sep 30, 2018
837
JewelKI on Nov 6, 2019 wrote:
I think with Lore getting the nerf hammer, Mana Burn should stay. Maybe lower the damage or remove it entirely, but the mechanic should still be there as to not completely throw Balance under the bus.
The best move to mana burn is max health damage, while removing its ability to remove opponents pips. they could even add a weakness if they want to.

Geographer
Sep 30, 2018
837
JewelKI on Nov 6, 2019 wrote:
I think with Lore getting the nerf hammer, Mana Burn should stay. Maybe lower the damage or remove it entirely, but the mechanic should still be there as to not completely throw Balance under the bus.
Although current players would see it as a nerf, lore actually got readjusted to fit its balance criteria. It was doing too match damage and had 2 utilities for a 4 pip spell. I say good ridden, mana burn is next then after, that school will actually become balance.

Geographer
Sep 30, 2018
837
PvP King on Feb 27, 2020 wrote:
I'm not rewording anything you said differently. Nowhere did you state that you used wards. You stated that people didn't use wards: "people at the time weren't investing in wards." Your post. Your words. I don't see how "I used ward because the 3 top schools in pvp basically got over tune" is translated from that sentence.

"There is always a direct counter play to any spell."
Shrike? Dark Nova? Minotaur? Orthrus? Fire Beetle? School specific traps? There is no direct counter play to any of those spells, only indirect.
"Mana burn is too much of a safe spell and the way it works negating your opponent from setting meanwhile balance is able to play hyper defensive and stack pips for days if they had too and come back with their own mass damage combo's"
Several people in this thread explained how Mana Burn is a risky spell in a lot of scenarios, I don't think I need to re-explain. Balance is not able to play hyper defensively at levels 60+ because Death mastery is extremely common from 60-90, damage and pierce are extremely high in those level ranges, and level 100+ has more than enough answers to counteract a "hyper defensive" player. Balance can't play hyper defensive at 60-130 because you're forced to take out your opponent before they get too threatening. You can't survive endlessly.
I don't understand your logic here. So the Balance is stacking pips and coming back with their own mass damage combos while losing pips, blades and traps on Mana Burn????? The only place Balance is able to do what you are describing is level 50 where Balances will stack different kinds of Spirit Traps and go for Shatter into Chimera, which is more of a high level TC in low level usage issue more than a Mana Burn thing, considering Balances can only have a maximum of 2 Mana Burns with the Order of High Glory Banner without sacrificing Life Mastery for the level 40 amulet.
"Balance is still a dominant school... but their still top underdogs in pvp."
Being dominant and being an underdog are completely opposite things. That sentence makes absolutely no sense.
"With incredible overloaded utility kit balance is able to shutdown their opponents to much without any actual penalty compared to other school."
If there is a high level Balance out there that is able to shut down their opponent, then let me meet that guy because with the way mid-high level PvP is set up that is not possible. Balance doesn't have an overloaded utility kit, and even if they did, Balance is a utility based school.
"How much control does a balance actually needs to shift the game in their direction."
Apparently more than they have now since even with Mana Burn, Supernova, Loremaster and Gaze of Fate, the match still goes either way.
"Mana burn, Efreet, Abominable weaver, Aura burn all need changes."
Efreet and Abominable Weaver both need changes due to the overpowered nature of high damage + high defensive utility spells. Mana Burn will also 100% need a change when Turn Based PvP comes to ranked. Supernova depends on what happens with Shadow Shrike when resist gets reworked. If Shrike is still a better version of Infallible and counters Fortify/Brace, then Supernova is fine the way it is. If schools lose Shrike as a utility, then Supernova will need to be reworked since Balances will be able to have unfair pierce + resist advantages over opponents.
"Nah sorry mate balance can do fairly well without mana burn hence why this thread was posted and many would agree on the aspect."
Play Balance without Mana Burn and tell me with a straight face that you found it to be a success. It won't be very long before you come back to the boards complaining about Balance needing better utility.
Responses to your other post:
"Hold up a second balance can't set up? What? Ever heard of the words brace? Into shields? Stuns? Pip save? And then balance for having like 6 blades?"
I said Balance can't set up offensively. Every spell you mentioned has a hard counter to it: Brace by Shrike, shields by DoT or Shrike, stuns by Stun Block, and I'm not sure what pip save is supposed to mean. Saving pips isn't setting up. Balance also can't set up 6+ blades without getting absolutely hard-countered by the opponent. Blade stacking Balance is an extremely non-viable strategy unless you're questing.
"Balance can def set up for mass damage esp into a gaze of fate adding that 25% damage to the already 135% damage."
I don't know whether you're complaining about Mana Burn or Gaze of Fate. A Balance is not keeping the opponent's pips low with Mana Burn and Gazing them simultaneously. If a Balance Mana Burns constantly early game, the opponent will be protected from Gaze of Fate by the time the Balance gets to Gaze. If the Balance opts to Gaze of Fate early without controlling the opponent's pips with Mana Burn, then the opponent will have a severe pip and threat advantage over the Balance. Fire, Ice, Myth, and Storm all have direct 2 pip counters to Gaze of Fate's bubble, while Death and Life both have 3 pip damage + bubble spells in Brown Spider and Red Ghost, and Death also has Doom and Gloom which is phenomenal against high-critical Balances.
"Am sorry but your thought are coming off a bit bias considering your hydra icon"
Yes, me, the guy that completely agreed with nerfing Loremaster when it was ridiculous, asked for the unfair advantage of Reshuffle being a Balance spell to be changed so the spell would be equal pip cost to all schools, and agreed with a Mana Burn rework in Turn Based PvP is somebody who's biased towards the Balance school.
Lastly, this phrase you made:


"Balance can do fairly well without mana burn hence why this thread was posted and many would agree on the aspect"

No disrespect to Snow7450, but poster of this thread making a reply to a post saying "Good it about time balance learn how to suffer" tells me all I need to know about why this thread was made. To add, not very many people agreed with Snow that Mana Burn is broken, with the majority of this thread saying it is a balanced or one of the most balanced spells in the game.

Again, you haven't explained to me in any scenario why or how Mana Burn is overpowered. Just non-explained claims about Mana Burn being a disgusting spell, pip removal spells being bad for the game, and whatnot. Like I said, Mana Burn should be nerfed to remove 2 pips (yes 2 power pips included) instead of 3 when Turn Based PvP comes around since it'd be an overpowered disruption spell and I hope KI is looking into this thread and already has a pre-release Mana Burn nerf in the making for when 5th Age comes around. That's the only nerf I will agree on, and since 5th Age is close, asking for a nerf is essentially pointless until Turn Based becomes the main Ranked mode.
I wanna make sure when 5th age comes to fruition Ice, Fire, and Balance become where storm, death and life is atm. Low teir school while storm, death, myth and life become easier access to top tier. I don't want to hear another meta where ice, fire and balance is dominating pvp because of the spells they have access too. Nerfs these 3 schools to the ground where they become almost unplayable in pvp just like how storm is currently suffering.

Geographer
Sep 30, 2018
837
If fire's fire from above can get away with 1600 max damage, with epic enchant and leaves 3 traps, then why storm rasulkas 1475 unenchanted gives a back lash negative charm of -30%? I need a solid reasoning considering fire can get as much damage as storm now.

Delver
Mar 09, 2018
260
angellifeheart on Feb 28, 2020 wrote:
I wanna make sure when 5th age comes to fruition Ice, Fire, and Balance become where storm, death and life is atm. Low teir school while storm, death, myth and life become easier access to top tier. I don't want to hear another meta where ice, fire and balance is dominating pvp because of the spells they have access too. Nerfs these 3 schools to the ground where they become almost unplayable in pvp just like how storm is currently suffering.
...er, I'm not sure about you, but purposefully nerfing a class to the point where the game is unplayable like you said would probably not do well for KI's business. As an Ice main myself I think the weaver shield should get nerfed to -50, and I also think Efreet's weakness should get nerfed to -50. Weaver shield isn't better than Efreet weakness for sure, especially since it can be pierced, but w/e

In turn based, yes, mana burn is gonna be extremely unhealthy due to its low pip cost and the ability to stall out a player for however long. They added in pip conversion after Polaris - meaning it is possible for it to remove 3 pips like the card says. That's fine by me. If I get a power pip axed and another one turned into a noob pip I'd have no issues with that since it's balanced and it does what it needs to. The damage can even stay, or get buffed if need be. Too many times I've gone against balances already that just burn on the first turn before you can even do anything.

Geographer
Sep 30, 2018
837
JewelKI on Mar 3, 2020 wrote:
...er, I'm not sure about you, but purposefully nerfing a class to the point where the game is unplayable like you said would probably not do well for KI's business. As an Ice main myself I think the weaver shield should get nerfed to -50, and I also think Efreet's weakness should get nerfed to -50. Weaver shield isn't better than Efreet weakness for sure, especially since it can be pierced, but w/e

In turn based, yes, mana burn is gonna be extremely unhealthy due to its low pip cost and the ability to stall out a player for however long. They added in pip conversion after Polaris - meaning it is possible for it to remove 3 pips like the card says. That's fine by me. If I get a power pip axed and another one turned into a noob pip I'd have no issues with that since it's balanced and it does what it needs to. The damage can even stay, or get buffed if need be. Too many times I've gone against balances already that just burn on the first turn before you can even do anything.
In the reference of balancing pvp, It wouldn't hurt k i franchise brand or income, this is due to the fact that most income comes from pve players more so than pvp players. As per say in regarding to ice, balance and fire there needs to be a major a adjustment that would shift these 3 schools that have had it good for 5 yrs and counting into lower tiers by nerfing the spells that makes these school too much of a dominance role in a damage meta. Am talking ice weaver damage and shield nerfs, Steal ward and snow drift pip increase to 3, bale frost damage reduction, Lord of winter mana burn effect removal, Efreet weakness removal, burning rampage damage overtime adjustments into a regular damage overtime, mantle percentage reduction, Mana burn pip removal. With these nerfs to these 3 school would balance the equation for other schools that requires buff namely death, storm and life to reach the ranks of top tier in max pvp. Again am not trying to kill schools am just trying to prevent another Ice, fire and balance ruling the meta in fifth age regardless of previous nerfs and what ifs. In other words your going to now need wards for storm, death,myth and life presumably as oppose to fire, ice and balance because those 4 mention would now become the dominant schools of 5th age. I have no sympathy whats soever for and if k i doesn't see to those nerfs then pvp will remain the same regardless of the changes to come.

Delver
Mar 09, 2018
260
angellifeheart on Mar 3, 2020 wrote:
In the reference of balancing pvp, It wouldn't hurt k i franchise brand or income, this is due to the fact that most income comes from pve players more so than pvp players. As per say in regarding to ice, balance and fire there needs to be a major a adjustment that would shift these 3 schools that have had it good for 5 yrs and counting into lower tiers by nerfing the spells that makes these school too much of a dominance role in a damage meta. Am talking ice weaver damage and shield nerfs, Steal ward and snow drift pip increase to 3, bale frost damage reduction, Lord of winter mana burn effect removal, Efreet weakness removal, burning rampage damage overtime adjustments into a regular damage overtime, mantle percentage reduction, Mana burn pip removal. With these nerfs to these 3 school would balance the equation for other schools that requires buff namely death, storm and life to reach the ranks of top tier in max pvp. Again am not trying to kill schools am just trying to prevent another Ice, fire and balance ruling the meta in fifth age regardless of previous nerfs and what ifs. In other words your going to now need wards for storm, death,myth and life presumably as oppose to fire, ice and balance because those 4 mention would now become the dominant schools of 5th age. I have no sympathy whats soever for and if k i doesn't see to those nerfs then pvp will remain the same regardless of the changes to come.
Pretty sure balance is here to stay because of mana burn. Ice will be hurt by turn based, I believe, but they can still be pretty good. Fire will be countered more easily. The point is not to destroy a school, it's to add restrictions like resist caps, reducing damage, and changing effects. My biggest fear is turtle strategies running wild in turn based, since it takes longer and there's more time to react. As long as those are dealt with I believe 5th age will be somewhat balanced.

Explorer
Jul 23, 2009
81
Geographer
Sep 30, 2018
837
JewelKI on Mar 5, 2020 wrote:
Pretty sure balance is here to stay because of mana burn. Ice will be hurt by turn based, I believe, but they can still be pretty good. Fire will be countered more easily. The point is not to destroy a school, it's to add restrictions like resist caps, reducing damage, and changing effects. My biggest fear is turtle strategies running wild in turn based, since it takes longer and there's more time to react. As long as those are dealt with I believe 5th age will be somewhat balanced.
Even though lore master was adjusted to its balance state people still play balance. Ice is going to be really strong in turn base pvp due to the fact that it basically has the option to steal wards tremendously. Since turn base is going to be less predictable its gonna be more of a turtle set up like you mention. But, remember the more you use shields the more its gonna affect your shadow meter if its even implemented. I do agree on the restriction part that's pretty much what am looking forward too specifically for ice fire and balance. A balance state would be not seeing or hearing about ice , fire or balance being in the same dominant position they once were for 5 yrs that's just my honest opinion.

Defender
Mar 10, 2014
183
angellifeheart on Mar 6, 2020 wrote:
Even though lore master was adjusted to its balance state people still play balance. Ice is going to be really strong in turn base pvp due to the fact that it basically has the option to steal wards tremendously. Since turn base is going to be less predictable its gonna be more of a turtle set up like you mention. But, remember the more you use shields the more its gonna affect your shadow meter if its even implemented. I do agree on the restriction part that's pretty much what am looking forward too specifically for ice fire and balance. A balance state would be not seeing or hearing about ice , fire or balance being in the same dominant position they once were for 5 yrs that's just my honest opinion.
"Even though lore master was adjusted to its balance state people still play balance" To me it sounds like you just want balance nerfed to the ground and made into an unplayable school. Balance is just fine how it is, if anything needs nerfed its the dark nova strategy on balance.

Geographer
Sep 30, 2018
837
Fred Frost on Mar 15, 2020 wrote:
"Even though lore master was adjusted to its balance state people still play balance" To me it sounds like you just want balance nerfed to the ground and made into an unplayable school. Balance is just fine how it is, if anything needs nerfed its the dark nova strategy on balance.
Unplayble? unlikely a very overrated statement. Balance can be played exceptionally well without mana burn, why? because apparently max players forget that they have shield breaking spells ability to blade, higher damage output than life and death combine and the ability to neutralize the opponent from using spells such as brace. Not to mention an minion pet that gives 3 minion card that's pretty much the best minions of all minions even arguable better than talos. I rest my case on the balance assessments, am just going to wait and see what exactly the devs have plans in the update. Till then am off wiz for the time being and investing my productive time somewhere else.

Mastermind
Mar 19, 2011
341
Christian19904 on Nov 1, 2019 wrote:
I agree with you 100%

This might be a shock to you when you see the name on message board.

I don't know why anyone would use Mana burn awhile going second at all.

Always be family friendly
Sometimes you get lucky.

Maybe you guess correctly that they are going to spend a turn blading, for example.

Mastermind
Mar 19, 2011
341
xTsuin on Nov 19, 2019 wrote:
I think you forget they nerfed mana burn. not sure if you know this but mana burn would also cancel their spell and gaurantee the opponent to fizzle if they did not have enough pips when it first came out.
Really?

I did not know that.

Survivor
Dec 28, 2008
30
I am a max lvl balance Mana burn works as designed 80 damage per pip gold=2 value white =1 value removal is 3 pip regardless of color as stated.
Spell is also non boostable.

For argument sake: Tempest is 80 pip damage and is boostable should that be made no boostable & nerfed as well since it can be cast at 1 pip or more?

My big question how is DD answer to balance PVP always nerf balance spells and get rid of resist for healers.

Seriously go out and farm your gear train your pet each school has it's own benefits and drawbacks Pvp used to be fun now it is all about forums and whining about how you can't one shot someone and have to use strategy to win.
When Mom bought me this game she didn't say i would have to think can't i just get a every ones a winner trophy like i did in soccer for showing up.

But ki could listen to you and make all balance spell do 1 damage cost 10 pips to cast and heal your for 1000 after hit finishes maybe you'll win then.